tv Bulls and Bears FOX News April 3, 2010 10:00am-10:30am EDT
building who sent flowers, thank you so much for the fox family. >> we're so glad he's on the mend. >> we are. >> see you in the after the >> see you in the after the show, show captioned by closed captioning services, inc. >> 162,000 jobs that's how much they added last month and democrats say they're turning the corner, is there new health care law about to put it into reverse? the hits keep coming. just this week, companies from verizon, to lockheed, to boeing, reporting health care charles, nearly 3 billion bucks and counting. so, will this knock the job gains right back down? hi everyone, i'm brenda buttner, this is bulls and bears, let's get to it. gary b smith, tobin smith, pat dorsey, eric bolling, along with richard goodsteen. why don't we see a glimmer of hope for the jobs.
we see hits for the health care law, bad for jobs. >> yes, the company 3 billion now, the estimate could be up to 14 billion dollar when all is said and done. two options, cut benefits likely the retirees to worked for the companies for years and expected the benefits when they retire and maybe some of those get pulled out from under them or stop hiring because at some point, they have to close it. this is a new cost, i hear from the left they knew about this, this is money that's going to come off the bottom line and the way they're going to have to shore up that bottom line is either cut benefits or stop hiring. >> how could this be good for jobs, richard? >> well, it's good in many respects. first of all, let's clear up the facts. this is a subsidy that these companies are getting from the federal government thanks to the prescription drug bill back in 2003, and all they're saying now is, you know what, you can't deduct it. that's not something that we think is fair for the taxpayer and here is the benefit, big company, you, who are based in
the u.s. are now at a disadvantage competing globally because your competitors operate in countries that have some sort of national health care plan and you as a company don't have to assume the cost, which the cats and the ge and the deeres do. >> that's changing. >> that's where the job growth is going to come from and finally, it is and so i think that over time this five, whether it's 14 billion, whatever it is, will wash out relative to the tens and tens and tens of billions in which these large companies will benefit. the question is, gary, are the business write-downs the first to go and then, what happens? >> absolutely. look, i respect richard. i mean, that guy can put the spin on this slammy sandwich better than anyone else i've ever seen. >> thank you. >> the fact of the matter is, there's a couple of points. one, the government period, i don't care if it's health care, if it's a war, the government can't create jobs no matter how
much richard wants to say this is a jobs creator, it can't create jobs. it can move moan around from one to another place, but it can't create jobs. second of all, brenda, to your point. this is like every single other government program out there from the nasa space station to medicare, to you know, any kind of defense project. this is not per eric's numbers, a 14 billion dollar, this is probably more like 140 billion dollar cost for those companies because these costs are going to escalate. now, the problem is, the government's going to keep doing this obama care, unless it's repealed or something, so where is that extra money going to come from? it's going to come from, as eric points out shall the entrepreneurs out there and these businesses. they're going to have to spend a lot more money out there than they're ever going to save. >> right, right. >> so richard's points are absolutely ridiculous. >> let me ask you a question tobin. at&t already says that it may change its health care benefits
to not only retired, but to active workers. what does that do to jobs? >> well, remember, brenda, it's going to hurt jobs for a couple of reasons and one of it simply is that they're going to have 14 billion dollars has to get paid some way. the bigger issue that just fries me, we already have seen the empirical, the real data for obama care, it's called romney care in massachusetts. it was legislated in '06, started in '07, between '07 and '09 the state of massachusetts destroyed more jobs than any other state in the united states. that's a fact. it was correlated not only the bad economy, but also this incredible cost that came in. 44 days to get a doctor there. 66% of the doctors pulling out of accepting you know, health care plans. so, look it, it's going to absolutely raise costs, forget about those little donut whole things. the whole obama care raises premiums and hurts jobs. but this is really the first blow, although, pat, you say
this may not hurt jobs because it's the closing of a tax loophole? >> well, i mean, there's a specific issue and a larger issue. the specific issue we're headlining these 3 billion dollar cuts, that's closing a loophole. it's as if i could pay your mortgage payment and you would right off the taxes. and from the logos we put up earlier, what sector were the companies in, they're all big industrial business was tons and tons of retirees supported by relatively few active workers, there wasn't a tech company on there, retailer, health care company, some of the dynamic areas of the economy. hang on. this may impact costs for small businesses and hiring there, but let's not get our shorts in a knot over the-- >> well, we know it will, we know it's going to-- >> it's closing a loophole in companies-- >> big businesses are like,
since when does closing a tax loophole or removing a tax benefit create a job in that's absolutely ludicrous. >> eric, i said if i paid your taxes, your mortgage payment, should you be able to write that off. >> whether i should or not it's going to cost me more. >> exactly. >> going forward and-- >> answer the question, answer the question. >> hold on. >> answer the question. >> let me get over to richard. richard, you've heard from a lot of them. what do you -- how do you respond? >> first, surely the most efficient way to create jobs is not to give a subsidy to a large company and then have them deduct it it. that's not a good argument for job creation or job retention to say let's give these big companies money and then have them deduct it and if we have to pull it away, that's not really a good economic argument, there are better ways. >> and you're giving away money, billions of dollars, at this point in the recovery, toby,
does that hurt? >> yes, it does. because, remember, to pat's points, these are large companies and now, we always say that small businesses is a big job creator, but they are, the fact of the matter is two companies in the united states are responsible for about 25% of jobs, so, it absolutely does and to mr. gibson's point, the whole issue of health care being paid at the national level in europe or other countries, hey, our biggest competitor is china. they don't pay squat, all right? so i don't buy that as the issue and we've been competing against against european companies for 50 years who had health care plans so don't buy it. >> gary b, get in there. >> richard's talking about, now, the most efficient way to create jobs, look, if we want to talk about efficient way to create jobs, we wouldn't have obama care to begin with. i mean, what is there going to be like a hundred bureaucracies create snd i mean, this thing. >> 118. >> 118, thank you, toby. this thing is going to mushroom
out of control and back to the whole benefit point, look, the whole point is not whether it's fair or not, yeah, it's probably fairer that they don't have the deduction, but eric and the company and toby hit on it. the fact is, the money's going away. so, at best there's going to be, you know, they're going to lose less jobs, they're not going to create any jobs for crying out loud. i can't see if in any way shape or form probably a detriment to the companies. >> ten seconds, richard. >> i have a hunch a lot of you guys were opposed to the stimulus when there was money going to big companies on the argument it's going to create jobs. the fact it at the end of the day u.s. businesses are more competitive by virtue of this health care plan and look what the stock market has done since it's been signed into law, thank you very much, barack obama. >> i don't know that the stock market is an indicator, but we appreciate it. thanks. from taking a financial hit to taking a veiled threat. neil's gang unveiling the latest
d.c. scare tactics muslim companies warning about the real cost of the health care law, but first, what democratic leaders just it that should have unions shaking in their boots and taxpayer rejoicing. (announcer) we're in the energy business. but we're also in the showing-kids- new-worlds business. and the startup-capital- for-barbers business. and the this-won't- hurt-a-bit business. because we don't just work here. we live here.
near baghdad, gunman wearing military uniforms trying to pass themselves off as americans stormed a sunni village in the middle of the night and killed 25 people, including five women. police are saying the victims were handcuffed and shot execution style, helicopters now flying overhead and police are investigating and will keep up to details. the a female employee died at a hospital, two other badly burned workers in this accident are hospitalized in critical condition and now we're learn at that just last year, at that same refinery was fined for serious safety and health violations, no word yet if they played a role in yesterday's clash. i'm jamie colby, back to bulls and bears, see new 30 minutes. >> democrats now going after union pay, you heard me right. l.a.'s mayor once a union organizer now wants city workers to kick in more to their
benefits and pensions and new york's democratic governor calling on the teachers union to accept a pay freeze. they're not alone. over two dozen states looking to cut costly labor contracts, to save their governments money. toby, should the president take a hint? >>. >> well, yes, he should take a hint. should take a couple of hints here, our research shows there's almost 300 cities in the united states that will declare bankruptcy over the next 18 months if they don't get the unions to pull back. look it, everybody else has pulled back in the economy. everybody else has taken less pay for more hours, more productivity. why on earth is this anachronistic system great 50 years ago, who says they're the ones who are supposed to have a 4 and 5% raise during this entire last ten years. it's insane. >> that's your question, richard. >> well, it's certainly the case that at some level it's unfair to try to break a deal that was
negotiated, but no question, the unions have to play their kind of hearts in dealing with the economic situation. it's a bit galling, however, if you're a cop or teacher or firefighter to kind of having to step back. what you negotiated for in your last contract was not a pay increase, but more benefits and what now you're being asked to give those away and to have the hedge fund manager who might be making a billion dollars kind of scream bloody murder because their tax break might go up a little bit. so somehow equity here. >> okay, gary b, take that one on. >> well, you know, i tell you what, leave it to the democrats to always go to their trump card, the firemen, the policemen. he never talks about the sanitation worker, the civil servant working behind some desk for some guy that's in charge of the, putting the paper work in front of you when you want to get a lousy permit cleared. look, the fact of the matter is i understand the union's game, they sign these contracts, but they signed them in good times.
just like all the municipalities in montgomery county where we lived in, where toby and i live in made plans when they thought the good times were going to continue, but the good times aren't going to continue. look at the auto workers for crying out loud. these unions have one thing in mind. they want to keep their pay regardless of everyone else and i tell you what, those cities and counties a lot of those mentioned are going to have to declare bankruptcy, but the unions say, hey, listen, we have the contracts signed. >> that's right. >> the question is, eric, who pays, the unions or the taxpayers? >> this is going to play out. it's going to be very, very interesting. i think they're going to be under a lot of pressure to get the unions to play ball, to renegotiate these contracts or break them. probably too hard to break them they'll need them to renegotiate. if they don't taxpayers are going to pick it up. the problem is if they push too hard, these municipalities and states say we need you to play ball they're risking, political, i don't know, armageddon because the unions wield amazing
political power and they have to do the tightrope dance. i don't think the guy at the dmv making me wait three hours for my driver's license needs a 5% raise this year, i'm just saying. >> well, the thing is, pat, lots of people didn't get any raises they got their pay cut in the private sector. >> for the last ten years. >> pat, how do you weigh in on this? >> i'm sorry. >> everybody in this country generally over the past decade, i think the issue aside from the union issue, if we're going to point fingers, let's point fingers at our elected officials in municipal levels the past 20 years and basically made unsustainable promises. the biggest issue, the promise unless it's accurately, the promises are unsustainable. made when your pockets are flush, times are good. when you think that property taxes are going up forever and my gosh, we can keep raising benefits till the cows come home. it just don't work like that. and the problem is in the private sector, especially in financial services you have
variable pay. times are great you get paid a lot. times are bad, you don't get paid much. unfortunately elected officials at the municipal level made promises that ratchet up regardless whether the economy is doing good or poorly and they're not sustainable and nothing to be done about that. >> will union workers have to choose between jobs and maybe taking some pay cuts? >> yeah, look, i think in fairness they're going to have to take their lumps like everybody else and i agree with pat's comment. the fact is it goes to the federal spending as well as to state and local, but we saw exactly what happens when somebody proposes to cut in this case, medicare, in the prescription drug-- in the health care bill that just passed, which is the democrats, i think, kind of justly said, we're going to have to cut back and what happened? john mccain without the '08 campaign saying i'll balance a budget on the back of medicare now says don't cut medicare one dollar that's irresponsible. politicians on both sides of the
aisle need to kind of get real a little bit. state, local as well as federal. >> last word, toby. >> we all agree that these guys are not on both side of the aisle: but it's time for the unions to play ball here, it's a great ride and if they don't come to the market you'll see the contracts broken, they'll go bankrupt. >> coming up, a change of heart, president obama opening up the u.s. coast to drilling, but what else comes with that plan may end up drilling taxpayers more. and you want to see folks ticked about taxes? then don't miss neil's special coverage of the tax day protest in atlanta. he'll be live at a rally planned at georgia's state capital on april 15th.
>> drill baby drill. what kind of slogan is that? today we're announcing the expansion of off shore oil and gas exploration. >> brenda: well, first he was against it, now he's for it. the president this week says he'll open up more drilling off the east coast, the gulf of mexico, even alaska, eric, you're a big fan of off shore drilling, but you say taxpayers would be better off without this plan. >> explain. >> it was a plan before. the problem this is a deal. we'll open up a little bit of that off shore land by the way already open, they had a moratorium put on it years ago and it's back now and he'll give them a little bit of drilling because he wants to get moderate republicans to sign on board to his cap and trade legislation.
you'll hear a lot about this the next few months and try to get this pushed through before mid term elections and boy, is that a bad idea. you're talking about giving a little here to get a lot. 600 billion to a trillion dollars per year bottom line right there, right to every single person watching right now. >> brenda: richard. >> yeah, we're getting our chock cleaned by china and other countries that have committed themselves to reducing greenhouse gas emissions by virtue of investments in renewable energy and energy efficiency and the only way i hate to say it, we're going to have that happen here, there's a price on the carbon pollution that even somebody like lindsey graham, the republican senator from south carolina, says is an absolutely necessary thing for this country. now, i would-- he didn't make a deal, there's no quid pro quo, none that i'm aware of. >> come on, man. >> all i'm saying, he was placing a bet. he was hoping that frankly he could entice republicans to see that he was taking the middle
ground on nuclear, on off shore drilling. >> a very nice way of saying it. gary b, we're not getting much new oil though and if cap and trade passes, what happens to the economy then? >> well, richard hit it right in one respect, brenda, there is no quid pro quo because there's no qid in this thing. it was made a big deal around here the off shore drilling in virginia. that deal was already in the work. in fact the department. intear i don't remember pushed that back in 2012 and canceled leases in alaska, the most productive in alaska, the area that you talked about off the gulf of mexico that is going to be allowed leases, that's subject to congressional approval. so, what obama did, he gave up nothing and he hopes to get this cap and trade which is going to be a big tax monster. >> another tax monster we should say. >> brenda: pat, at least we're getting some drilling? >> we're getting some drilling. it's not like it's going to do much for us, the amount of oil
that comes in is going to take-- oil is a global traded commodity and people think that just because oil is close guy it's somehow cheaper. it's got nothing to affect it uniota. >> brenda: i've got to get toby in here, we're squeezed for time. >> i don't have much to say, but here is the point. >> brenda: what? >> where the actual big wells are which is is california and florida, then this is the most bogus offer i've seen since, you know, that man, my favorite man bill clinton was in office. >> brenda: i don't have much to say. boy, you roll on that, i want to play that again. all right, thanks to richard for joining us. gm just paying back a big chunk of its bailout. why is that helping a rival auto stock jump 50% is this find out which one. and remember this? >> (bleep). >> brenda: now hear about the company making a fortune off of
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>> brenda: okay, your prediction quickly. >> heading up, higher prices will spur more factories being built by kla ten corps, major supplier to the bankers. >> brenda: what do you think about that combar gary b. >> i love it, great pick, great stock. >> brenda: tobin. >> gm is paying. if gm is doing good, ford is doing great. i think ford is still long. 50% mover to the upside. >> brenda: pat, you like it or not. they're doing well and 50% might be a stretch, but more car sales, good work. >> brenda: eric top man. >> brenda you heard about bad blanking-- this is a great deal with joe biden. selling for $25 t-shirts and hanes brand and here on the other side of the story, bad bleeping dealment and 30% in a year. nice shirt, bowling. >> put it tie on next time.