tv Bulls and Bears FOX News April 10, 2010 10:00am-10:30am EDT
>> join us after the show show, fox and friends.com. the author of the male brain, answers your questions next. >> brenda: finally, shoppers are shopping again, retail sales leaping nearly 10% last month. so what does d.c. call, call for a national sales tax. lawmakers now asking the congressional budget office to study it and one of the president's advisors saying a so-called value added tax would not be toxic for america. but would it actually be the toxin that shocks shoppers and our economy back underground? hi everybody, i'm brenda buttner, this is bulls and bears, let's get to it. we've got gary smith, tobin smith, part dorsey, eric bolling. and welcome to everybody. eric, a national sales tax and economy crusher? >> an economy crusher, welcome
to bm campaign promise number 88, broken. no new taxes to anyone making under $250,000 bucks. here is a tax on everyone and everything. anything from a book, a $30 book now costs $36. a dinner out, an ipad, a $500 ipad, $600. even a car, ford fiesta almost $3,000 more. if you're a consumer, you're being taxed anyway and you're worried about health care and now this, everything you buy more tax, tax, tax, tax, enough, stop! >> that means shut go the wallets? >> well, you know, the vat tax is another tool. they can use it any way they want, temporarily, adjustable rate and the primary tax and we do away with income tax. the truth is people use it all over the world. europe and asia used the vat tax for decades and right now very few other options for us to try to solve the deficit problem. you've got to have one or the other. and you can't complain about the
deficit and say we can't raise income for the government. >> brenda: well. >> variables are built into vat on all kinds of different ways, all around the world and it's not a one, it's not a one fit on that. there's a lot of things you can do. >> brenda: that means more regulations and toby, this, this tends to really hit the, hit poor people more, that there's a higher, i remembhigher ratio. >> it hurts the poor people, but remember, we saw gasoline in the united states go up to $4.55, and it's killed the economy. well, this is actually more than that because you're taking, you know, almost a 9, 10, trillion dollars of consumer spending, adding 15 or 20% tax on top of that. and do the math. that's about one and a half to 2 trillion dollars that comes out and where does it go? it it went to pay down the debt maybe that'd be okay and that money doesn't keep recycling. what it does do, goes to support more spending and we're already
broke on medicare and everything else and so this is a recipe for disaster. >> brenda: okay, hold on michael. >> geraldo: want to get gary b in. you did mention that taxes around the world and in fact, history shows us though, gary b, that they haven't been all that successful. >> well, exactly. i'm glad-- you know i was waiting, i wanted to see how mike would spin the value added tax was a good thing and did he a remarkable job. unfortunately he pointed to europe. hey, they have it in europe, i guess implying that hey, if they have it in europe, it's done okay there. the average tax burden in europe which does have this essentially, this you know, across the eu. in fact, this mandatory value added tax or national sales tax, if you will, it's about 40% the average, the government spending over there because of this revenue, it's about 47% of gdp. here is the problem with all of that. study after study after study has shown from the federal reserve, by the way, you know, to the national bureau of
economics across the board, have shown that higher taxes, higher government spending, the bigger the government is, leads to lower economic growth and lower job creation, so, you know, mike if your intent is for us to turn into europe, value added tax is the way to go. >> brenda: is this hello to france. >> bon jour. >> you guys aren't happy with yours, let's look at japan. japan has the smallest tax burden in the world. >> brenda: it has no personal income tax though. >> wait a second, that's right. and what did they do? it's all vat tax and then they do the unthinkable, brenda, actually make corporate america pay their fair share. >> i'm happy-- >> and their economy in 24 years, how would you use that as an example. >> you know what? they're not faceed with a deficit that's so serious that the national security threat. >> and there's another-- >> have to raise money and cut. you can't just do one and solve
the deficit problem. >> there you go, there you go. >> tell brenda to get her hand out of my picture. >> brenda: i'm sorry, man, i won't take up any of your time, either. i have to let pat get in and consumption isn't the only thing taxed in our nations, obviously, what would this mean? >> it's two points to make, one is that we can actually tax consumption-- more than most other developed economies. you could shift that balances increasing the tax burden in total. the other point i would make, the person who made the comment was voelker, not exactly a left wing nut job and made the comment if we don't cut entitlements, this is something we may to need to look at. you cut entitlements-- not many people are talking about that. >> pat, they're looking at t it's going further than an offhanded voelker comment and all of a sudden, congress is
saying what a value added tax or national sales tax. >> and we are he going to need something. >> brenda: hold on. >> and talking about the simple fixes to social security that would basically negate the need. >> brenda: that's not going to happen. that's just not going to happen. >> perhaps it should. >> brenda: well, yes, lots of things should happen in washington that we don't see, unfortunately. but toby, this consumer drive this economy, 70%. sure. >> brenda: by placing a tax on consumption, are you basically changing our way of capitalism? >> well, and without getting complicated, this, the way it's being proposed is that all the fees are stuck all the way through the value chain and the consumer ultimately pays it number one and number two, the argument has been, well, the people in the dark economy, in other words, the black market, actually not paying tax the all, this is a way to get them out. what they found in italy, you have he' got a whole new crime
wave in organized crime they subvert the things, multiple of million dollars in europe stolen so for the mafia a great idea. >> always a bogeyman on anything you want to talk about. >> that's your line, mike. >> wait a second, this isn't a new idea, tobin. the truth is it works around the world. wouldn't you rather have a vat tax. >> how does it work. >> than do away with income tax. >> wouldn't you remember have a-- >> we will never have that. >> and it's not sold yet, in lieu of higher income taxes, but-- >> you still get the high income tax and this is just a consumer tax on top. >> eric, eric, that's true, but you have to start somewhere. you have to at least introduce a new idea. god forbid we should think-- cut spending is a new idea. >> i mean, that scares me, it works around the world and-- ments how does it work around the world. >> brenda: guys, stop sch!
>> we have to do that in the united states. >> brenda: gary, where does it work around the world, aim he looking at germany, england, i'm abbinging at-- >> france, spain. >> across the board all of those places have lower productivity and gdp growth. look, it works if we becomes like europe base basically an entire welfare state. yeah, then it works. but i don't, i'm not sure at that even with our way of living to become like europe. >> all of those countries have less wealth, the people have much less income, they have, you know, france 55% of the entire economy is from the, you know, it's government spending and gft dole. that is the recipe for killing our economy. >> everybody on this panel is educated enough to know this, and you can't deny this, we have to solve the deficit problem. republicans brought it to us, by the-- >> and spending now. >> brenda: you know what, let's end with that one little bit.
>> have an income tax-- >> let's end on that one little agreement. okay? how we get there, i think we probably disagree. sorry, i want it get my hand out of your box here on the brady bunch. if you're ticked about talk of attacks on consumers, wait till you hear about the union lawsuit against taxpayers. neil's gang tells you all about it, but up next, if you're getting a tax re fund this year, enjoy it. it might be your last. what the head of the irs said he's being forced to do because of the new health care law. ♪
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>> hello everybody, this is a fox news alert. i'm yuma. the president of poland and some of the country's highest military and civilian lead versus been killed in a fiery plane crash in rush is a this morning. the presidential plane crashing as it came in for a landing through a thick fog, killing all 96 on board, including the president's wife. president elect is headed marking the anniversary of the massacre of officers by the soviet secret police. heart break in west virginia, the four missing west virginia coal miners have been found dead deep inside the mine, shattered
by a powerful explosion on monday. their debt bringing the total killed by that blast 29, making this the worst u.s. coal mining disaster since 1970. we'll have much more on the developing story in our next news break. back to bulls and bears. >> brenda: buy health insurance or lose the tax refund. the irs boss saying his agency has the power to do it. if you disowe bare the health care law, we've been worrying about these in the law. >> a lot of stuff is coming out after the thing is passed and sure enough. now we find out that the irs is going to be empower today make sure we comply with health insurance, if we don't they can fine you $750 or 2% of the income. if you don't pay they'll take out of the refund and god forbid you don't have a refund and still don't want to pay, put you in jail. this stuff is ridiculous, heavy hand of the law looking over your shoulder.
>> brenda: who else to do it, the irs. we are a nation of laws and regulations and that's what separates us from banana republics and anarchieses, i was an exprosecutor and prosecuted people when they didn't do what they were supposed to do. we're a country of 200 years of regulation, there's no way a person under the new law should not have health insurance. just like the deadbeat dad who says i don't want to pay for child support or the slacker had says, i don't want to pay for insurance on my car. in florida, you can't drive your car if you don't have insurance and all this is is government doing what they're suppose today do taking care of slackers. >> brenda: mr. prosecutor, we just got news that an irs agent was indicted for helping others lie on their taxes and he wants to kill other irs agents who want to do their job. these are the guys going after them gary b. >> mike is right we're a nation of laws and we need to abide by the laws the problem is this
health care bill might be the most despised law, if you will, by those people actually paying for it than any other law i can remember and the problem is, of the government can go just too far. i mean, look at massachusetts, where they are threatening the insurance companies to lower prices, effectively price controls. these are insurance companies that are nonprofits that are already losing money on these policies so the government knows no bounds to get the health care rammed through, even if it hurts the economy, even if it hurts the-- >> wait, wait. >> let me get pat in here. pat, who else should do this though? it is the law. >> well, that's the point, i mean, we can argue all day long and we have been for the past year and a half. there should be an insurance mandate or not, but now that there is one, the question is who administers that and there's no other agency i know of that touches them in a financial sense. if you've got a better idea i'm all for it, but i don't know who to do it. >> we've got unemployed people
who would love to do this. 4% of americans who don't pay any federal tax are exactly the same people who, you know, are getting this, potentially benefit. so, how are you going to get tax refund to pay their, the-- those that don't buy the insurance. they don't pay taxes for crying out loud. that's where the whole thing falls apart. there are plenty of ways. the irs can touch new a lot of bunch of different ways. >> oh, great. >> here is the point, a bank requires, when you get a loan that you buy insurance, if you buy a car or a house they say you've got to have insurance. that's their rule. they say, here, you can play by the rules, that's one rule. in florida, the florida government has ways to control a lot of things. >> oh, great. >> permits and-- >> here is the point, wouldn't you rather live here than in banana republic. this is a democracy and it's the best in the world. >> and it's also a free market,
we can choose that, mike. >> wait a second, here is what we miss, we always want to be critical how our regulations and laws work. i would rather be here than a banana republic and if we don't have laws that's what we become. slackers have to follow those laws. >> now they're slackers. >> slackers. >> mike, mike, the logic is great except for one thing, the idea here is that your belief is that the irs and other government and other agencies should be in the business of enforcing federal law at a state level. come on, man, you can't go both ways. they have to, the point is, it is law now, let's enforce it, all that is being said. >> not in virginia, it's not. >> brenda: okay, you want those irs agents touching you and don't forget tax day on thursday, protests planned across the country and neil will be covering it, a rally at the state capitol in atlanta, catch it april 15th on the fox news
gary b says it's like 10,000 tax cuts for consumers so d.c. take note. is this the stimulus that america needs, gary? >> absolutely, leave it to a private company to get it right. the greatest wealth creator in maybe the history of the universe cutting all of these prices. brenda, look who benefits, wal-mart the company benefits, customers obviously benefit, the community around them benefits. even the union employees at wal-mart benefit because wal-mart grows bigger and bot ton line they'll take in more revenue than with higher prices. that's the lesson that the government should learn, if they lower taxes like reagan did-- . mike you want to say higher prices or lower prices. >> gary, before we give them a nobel prize, let's figure out what they're doing, they've lost the middle class market, they don't want to shop at wal-mart
anymore, this is a gimmicks, what are they giving discounts on, toasters and toys or real things that we need. >> food. >> food. >> wait just a second, wait just a second. this is a great gimmick to draw you into the store, but i'll bet when the smoke clears you're not going to see people save any money. the whole market never saves a community money. ends up costing the community money. >> all right. >> toby. >> here is the gimmick, i am it's strange, ail say it slow. if you want more of something you actually tax less or in wal-mart's case if you want more of something they want, customers and profits, you lower prices by increasing productivity. by negotiating harder. if the u.s. government understood the simple idea we could raise more revenue and have customers, us the voters, be happier and they don't get it. >> brenda: pat, what do you say, this is not altruistic, they're doing it for a reason, it's a business. they are cutting.
>> wal-mart is a-- >> washington is vote maximizing entity. >> there we go. >> bottom line, wal-mart doing the right thing at the right time and hopefully, hope any some of the other retailers do the same thing and maybe eventually government. >> think if they ran health care. think if they ran health care. >> in the history of the company look at what they do to local economy. >> every dollar that you have-- >> wait, wait, pick pennies, get out of here. >> that's a study from like 25 years ago and every new study shows they increase. >> and don't even try it, wal-mart, wal-mart has-- >> and not american workers, not american workers. >> brenda: i'm sorry. >> 70% of their items come from china. and now, the truth is if they want to help our economy, bring our jobs back, don't send it to sweatshops over there and-- >> that's an incredible diatribe of pure nonsense, but thank you for sharing that. >> brenda: actually, my--
ments that hasn't existed for a while. >> brenda: actually, mike, we appreciate very much. >> absolutely. >> brenda: and thanks to the rest of the guys, too. all right, all eyes on tiger, but they should be on one of his rivals, the real comeback golfer and stocks driving back with him and a supreme court justice calling it quit and the president already hinting at a replacement and it all may mean record gas prices this year. >> also be someone who, like justice stevens, knows that in democracy, powerful interests must not be allowed to drown out the voices of ordinary citizens. c
. >> again, gary b is up first. >> brenda i'm going to go contrarian at the masters. forget tiger, forget nike. that's obvious and old news. think phil mickleson and callaway eli. that's the stock that's breaking out. i think up 50% by 2011. >> brenda: i've got to go to the golfer you always-- >> gary quit playing golf, obviously, and as bad as his pick. >> brenda: your prediction, toby. >> the supreme court justice being as liberal as he or she is going to be, it's going to be bad for our oil industry and good, however, for oil prices because they're going up because that drilling that's never going to happen. i say dig d-i-g goes up as oil prisses go up. >> brenda: gary, you like it. >> i do, i think it's a great call. >> brenda: pat dorsey, your prediction? >> i am not find ago whole lot
of value in the market right now. i'm looking for income. west star is a small electric utility out of kansas, 5 1/2% yield and raising at 5% clip. not a barn buster, but a return and lot of income. >> brenda: you like it? >> it's hard to argue because it's value and raising rates. >> and a stock-- mattel is going to-- and blonds not only have more fun apparently make 7% more than brunettes, go with prokt and gamble who owns clairol, and 32 shades of blond. >> you know, of all of the things, i think that eric as a transvestite is perfect for this show. i mean. >> brenda: he's a blond. >> didn't say anything about sex. >> a blond. >> there's a certain fabio thing going on here. >> there is a fabio thing. >> and one more button, eric, one more button. >> brenda: no blonds on this