tv ABC7 News 1100PM Repeat ABC December 10, 2013 1:05am-1:41am PST
begin. a little over three years ago in that very stadium, mr. mandela would make what was one of his last appearances there at the world cup. smiling, cheering. that day would end in tragedy. he lost his granddaughter in a traffic accident on that week and he was not seen again in public. as we said, more than 100 world leaders have come for this memorial service this morning including four american presidents. president and mrs. obama, along with president george w. bush and laura bush. here they are right now. the former secretary of state and first lady hillary clinton. long 17-hour flight on air force one. they reconfigured the cabins a bit so everybody could get some sleep. president bush and mrs. bush were in what is usually the medical unit of air force one. secretary clinton took over the first class staff cabin. and of course the president and mrs. obama had their apartment
up front. we're told they spent an awful lot of time on that flight together in the conference room, joining together to remember a man who changed so much. and we see again that crowd in the stadium. let's go to abc's terry moran there right now. lots of singing going on for several hours, terry. >> george, this has been an amazing morning so far. in a cold and soaking rain that as you can see is keeping down the crowd's numbers. but still streaming in. it has done nothing to keep down the spirits of the people here. it is impossible to describe, really, the feeling here. it's full of joy and pride. and what can only be described as a natural solidarity among all of us here. here to pay tribute to the life of nelson mandela. as you described, world leaders, they're shown on the screen from time to time. people roaring their approval as they see one after another enter the stadium. and this is a stadium that has just been filled with song. with music. the south african liberation movement was a revolution in
song and there are times it feels this whole stadium is one vast choir and an excellent one as well. well. you asked about it here, you can join in, there's no question about it. it's that kind of day, despite the rain. in african tradition, i'm told rain at a funeral means the person was blessed. it's been pouring here in soweto. and there's no doubt that nelson mandela is a blessing to south africa and to the world. that's what we're seeing here. it is a thrill to be here, no question about it. through this cold and soaking rain. the spirit of the place, warming this event, without question. george? >> i think we'll hope that it rains all day long there in south africa. let's go outside the stadium, as well. alex marquardt is there. alex, 100 world leaders in that stadium right now. this would be a security challenge for any country. tell us a little bit about what kind of precautions, if any, have been taken, that you've
seen. >> reporter: you're absolutely right, george. this is an unprecedented event in south african history. south african officials say this is the tightest security pla south african officials say this is the tightest security plan they have ever had. they are confident it will go off without a hitch. they point to past events, past world summits with large numbers of dignitaries. the world cup in 2010 which went very well. the same security team that was in place that in that operations room in 2010 is also there today. the government says they have deployed a large number of military police and intelligence officials. we're hearing and seeing some of them now. to be honest, the security footprint around the stadium is relatively minimal. we have been able to go in and out of the stadium with no problems. no smetal detectors no pat downs. no looking through bag. it is alarming to think there are 90 heads of state in the stadium with 30,000 people who haven't been checked.
you have to imagine it raises red flags with the secret service who as you mentioned are not just guarding president obama and the first lady today but three former presidents and their spouses, as well. >> i'm amazed. so nothing at all. no metal detectors, no searching for people as they go in to that stadium right now? >>. >> reporter: i have been in and out of the stadium at least three tienls haven't once been stopped by a security guard or pat down or gone through a metal detector. haven't seen police, security or dogs. there is one section where the media is gathered where you have to go through x-ray detectors and it is for equipment. i barely had to show my media credentials today. >> i'm joined by two guests. former assistant secretary of state for afrc, and michael
dyson of georgetown university. let's talk to dr. dyson on the beginning of nelson mandela to the united states. he was such an inspiration to so many including president obama who joined together in activism against the apartheid regime. >> he was an inspiration. to president obama in particular his first act of political expression or resistance was to join in the effort to disinvest, to speak out against apartheid. even further providing a global example of what an activist should be. one open to a particular method of resistance. obama has some of those characteristics. but also his willingness to forego the tradition of one's own tribe and think outside of the box. i think nelson mandela set that path -- set that path and order
for president obama. in openness to various viewpoints. obama's tendency to be bipartisan, i think, is pre-dated by nelson mandela's ability to bring so many pooh peoples together. both as an activist and president. >> that's what i want to talk about dr. fraiser, not only a revolution and freedom fighter but a statesman as the first elected black president of his country. that's a transition not all revolutionaries can make. >> that's correct. many continue to govern as populous. i think that president mandela actually not only reached out to the all of his people to try to bring them together and reconcile them but did so with an inclusive division. he didn't have to veer far from the traditions of his own political party. >> one of the things that i think president obama will talk
about today in his brief remarks, we're told, 10 to 15 minutes, is that this was not all foreordained. the early days when president mandela was elected were tenuous times where so many of his supporters were still, i guess had the instinct for violence and did not have his instinct for reconciliation. >> that's for sure. it was a revolution. it was a violent one. many people talk about south africa's transition being nonviolent. it wasn't. it was very violent. apartheid state was a repressive state. they used violence to maintain its political control. the anc at a point where they formed in 1961 decided to respond back violently. moreover, there was not just violence between the white regime and sort of the black movement, but also between different ethnic groups. there was the zulu that was also
quite violent toward the group from nelson mandela's ethnic group. it was tension across society. >> even within mandela's own family. his former wife winnie mandela, often was called for supporting violence and mandela often expressed displeasure with that. >> he did. in a remarkable interview, however, he said, look, people are free to choose their routes, their particular methods of response. he made clear that the oppressor will determine how the oppressor responds. when asked about his affiliations or his affiliations with people that took up violence or armed struggle. he said, look that depends upon the method of response. the method of response depends on what the oppressor does. at the same time he was critical of the necklaces, of the violence opposed. he said this replicates the violence done to us in the name
of apartheid and white supremacy. why don't we move beyond white and black supremacy and find the core of democratic reaction to the country around us? >> you see the picture of him and his wife winnie on their wedding day. a great love story but heart break for nelson mandela. just after he leaves prison he discovers she has a lover and not long after she was divorced. >> let's be honest. if the reals and genders were reversed would we expect a man free for 27 years to be without comfort and support? i think this is a gender approach there. but of course it has to be heart breaking in the same way that ha harriett tubman. this is the untold story of the domestic -- by their separation. the film coming out has a powerful scene where he is reaching for winnie.
you know, there's a tension, i haven't held your hand in -- i haven't held you in so long. there's an alienation that we might reasonably expect. >> that was a sacrifice, dr. frazier, that nelson mandela often spoke about. his greatest regrets were his failings to his family. yet for an entire nation we see them in the stadium he was called tata. >> that's right. he couldn't be the father to his immediate family. he tried to be that to his grandchildren for sure to make up for time but he was a father to the whole nation. in many ways, he's been the father globally because he represents such a powerful example to all of us of what we can aspire to be, as well. >> talk about the example in africa particularly. since his election in 1994, i think there have been at least 30 democratic elections now for leaders in africa. he often spoke out about the importance of leaders in africa
to take more responsible for their country to turn away from corruption. there is a mixed record to be sure but one he took to heart. >> in 2005. and they talked about the role of leadership. and specifically, he said it's unacceptable for leaders to stay in power for more than 30 years. it's simply unacceptable. and one can serve their nation outside of power, which he showed an example of, as well. africa has made a lot of advancements, certainly in the same since 1990, when he first came out of prison. but there's a lot more room to go. >> and speaking of that, dr. dyson, we're seeing nelson mandela there, casting that first vote for president in 1994. a man who had a great sense of political theater. and he knew once he left prison that the eyes of the world were upon him, almost at every moment. and really understood the power of his example to pick up on dr. frazer's point.
and leaving office after one term, like our own george washington. >> he was an extraordinary man. he had a sense of theater and a sense of humor, that many are not aware of. but that sense of theater. how do you stage a rebellion? and how do you stage a transition to democracy? it wasn't nonviolent because there was extraordinary bloodshed in some of the massacres that the government held and committed against the people. but nelson mandela wanted to show that this was a community. this was a nation. this was a country. that could be united by the common identity of a new south africa. and he understood that his casting that ballot, he understood that his -- the eyes of the world were upon him. how he handled situations, how the truth and requisition commission was carried out. that would send a signal not only to the world, but to other south africans that this is the way to handle it. and he wanted to retire after that first term to show that power is not something that is
inherited. but something that should be earned in a democratic regime. >> i want to go back to the stadium. our abc's byron pitts is in the stadium. we see the saudi crown prince walking in. so many world leaders gathered today. and this is part of what's been a week-long remembrance of nelson mandela. mourning and celebration. talk a little bit more about how you've seen this develop over the course of the week. i know you've been there for several days. >> reporter: it's striking how the mood has been far more celebratory than side. we would call these the cheap seats, high up in the rafters of fnb stadium. the people who arrived the earliest and have been the loudest. one woman got here six hours before the program started, just to make sure she got a good seat. people here chanting mandela, mandela, our president. all week long, there's been energy here, but so much
passion. optimistic passion. people who have been joyous. certainly sad about the loss of madiba. but joyous in the life he led and the changes he made. time and time again, people here told us, black, white, indian, how this is the new south africa. the rainbow nation. making a point that, for instance, at this arena, 25 years ago, in that south africa, it would not have been possible for people of different races to gather in one space to be together. i talked to a girl a little while ago. 24-year-old white girl who made the point that she was born the here that mandela became president. her life is better because of that. she has gone to a segregated school most of her life. she has a wide variety of friends. and she says, race does not matter to me the way it did to my parents, certainly not my grandparents.
the enthusiasm here has been refreshing to see. >> i'm sure it has. with all of the optimism, all of the hope, all of the changes you just talked about right there, you also have a south africa beset by social divisions, by economic divisions. and that's the next challenge for this new south africa. >> reporter: exactly right. we talked to one gentleman who described it, that point this way. he said, madiba was our mode. he took us across the red sea of apartheid. but we're waiting, waiting impatiently of the joshua of this political generation to take us to the promised land. they have unemployment here, 25%. unemployment for the young between the ages of 17 and 28, 50%. the issue of aids, prime and violence. that is certainly the days. george, it's been interesting. my visits here, in the past, people have talked about those problems. this week, when we've asked about that, they say, yes, we have problems. but right now, we're so focused
on madiba and his legacy. and working hard to embrace the notion that he did incredible things in his lifetime, moving this nation places that people only dreamed of. and so, they think it's possible. they've not seen it yet. but the next generation of leadership, despite issues of corruption we've seen now. people i think are willing to give them the opportunity to take them forward. >> we've seen more world leaders. the u.n. secretary-general, ban ki-moon right there. and i'm struck, dr. dyson. this occurs almost 20 years to the day of the day that nelson mandela received the nobel peace prize, with f.w. de klerk, the leader of the apartheid regime in south africa. what an interesting relationship that was, as well. no love lost between the two men. yet, they were forced to work together to create this new south africa that byron was just talking about. >> of course. they were forced compatriots.
but they found in the midst of the horror and the travail and the wide diversion beliefs about what the future south africa should be, a common ground. and together, they forged the future of that nation. and if nelson mandela is the father of modern democracy in south africa, de klerk gets an assist, in terms of acknowledging the necessity to do so and facilitating that transition in as nonviolent as possible. >> we see right there, nelson mandela and f.w. de klerk right there. and this is a perfect test of all of the principles that nelson mandela honed in prison. this belief in reconciliation. this belief that he can't allow any personal feelings, any personal even hatred, that he might feel, get in the way of what he needed to do for his country. >> that's correct. i think that he was very much a pragmatist. he was a pragmatist with
principles because he would reach out whichever side he needed to. he would adopt tactics he needed to, to move toward his goals, which was a free south africa. a nonracial south africa. i think we can all learn from that lesson. be pragmatic. but be principled and be clear in your goals. >> and terry moran in south africa this morning. he put those principles to work from the moment he got into prison in the way that he treated his jailers and the way he treated his fellow prisoners. he treated them with dignity and respect. insisting he also be treated with that same dignity and respect. and took that time in prison, in a way so few would imagine would do. took that time to educate himself and his people. >> reporter: absolutely critical. i was at a playground the other day, george, right on the outskirts of the township of
alexandria. that's when nelson mandela moved first when he came from the countryside. he moved to johannesburg. he lived in this township, segregated township. there i was the other day. these four little girls. and i asked them, what nelson mandela meant to them? we could go to school. we wouldn't have this playground if it wasn't for nelson mandela. they love school. and what's your favorite subject? one girl said math. the next girl said afrikaans. two of the four little black girls said their favorite subject in school was the language of their oppressors, now, fellow citizens. afrikaans. that's how this country has a long way to go, still. i saw vivid evidence in these girls. >> they are picking up on the example of nelson mandela right there. he went to prison and insisted he learn -- as we see tony
blair, kofi annan, the former secretary-general, that he learn afrikaans, the language of his oppressors, as well. >> there was a great activist, that said you can't dismantle the house with the tools. you have to use the master's tools. and you have to learn the language. you have to be intimately familiar with the rhythm, the cadences, the structure of being. the consciousness of the so-called enemy. and you lessen the gulf between you and the other person. there was a way in which his very activism bled over into his own -- you had to learn so-called the enemy, to make him your friend. nelson mandela won over, converted so many people, as a result of his willingness to be vulnerable and to meet people more than halfway. >> to put himself in the shoes of his oppressors, as well, dr. frazer. and it brings up the point. we think of nelson mandela as an
ultimate freedom fighter, a man of great moral courage. we see him return to robben island. and he was, like abraham lincoln, be flexible in the tactics he used to achieve, the goal of the nonracial south africa, where blacks were equal. >> right. and you saw this as a mediator, a statesman on the world stage. when he was a mediator for the peace talks. he came into those talks. and he insisted that the rebels be included at the table. in the past, the rebels were not allowed to be part of the negotiation. and he insisted that they be so. i know when he was chiding president clinton as well as president bush, you need to meet with arafat. you need to deal with the palestinians. he always saw the need to bring
the enemy, as such, into a dialogue. >> and talk more about that. you served most closely with president bush, as a secretary for africa and now the u.s. ambassador to south africa. quite a complicated relationship. even though nelson mandela supported the invasion of afghanistan, was critical of the u.s. invasion of iraq. but he found common ground with president bush on the need to fight aids in africa. >> i think the two had a lot in common. they fell out over the iraq -- they didn't fall out. they weren't going to agree. the south africans say we agree not to agree. i think that their -- i think they're both very much convicted in their actions. you know, they decide that they have a role. and they want to pursue it. and they have conviction and courage of that conviction. they may not always be right.
mandela has proven to be right, in terms of the arc of history. one looks at his life and sees how he has -- he compromised, for instance, with the apartheid regime, on the economic side. but yet, you know, the economy still is problematic, as we said, with 25% of the population unemployed. >> we were just watching president bush help nelson mandela down those steps. talk about what kind of shape nelson mandela was in -- >> that was in 2001. he was actually quite frail, even in 2001. but not mentally frail. just physically so. and so, yes. in that meeting, for instance, he was very strong on the issue of peace in the middle east. he was a statesman. he was very detailed on his analysis of world affairs. he talked about the saudi arabia. you know, what they could do in
afghanistan and what they shouldn't do in afghanistan. so, i think that he was quite frail but mentally strong. >> a little more frail there. but, boy, what a physical specimen, as well. a former boxer. some would say in his younger days he was quite vain. took care of himself. lived 95 years. >> that vanity was the reason that wahe was a leader. he's the muhammad ali of global democracy. he has to believe, i am the greatest. but he was certainly a man who took care of himself. he understood the principles of feudalism. and he gets out of prison, after 27 years, his lean frame was a tribute to his discipline. and that physical discipline was a reflect of his mental and
spiritual discipline, as well. >> and kept up the lifelong love of boxing. just four days out of robben island, the first thing he mike tyson. want to go back it byron pitts in the stadium now. we're hearing that song, as more and more world leaders pour in, talk a little about what's going to happen over the next days when this service is done. mandela will be moved to pretoria to lie in state for several days before the funeral. >> reporter: you're breaking up a bit. today, he will lie in state in the capital of pretoria. the funeral service will be held in the village of his boyhood on the eastern cape. while he was a prisoner at robben island, every day he would wake at 4:00 in the morning. he would do fingertip pushups, 200 situps, run in place for 45
minutes. that's how he started his day every single day. we were talking earlier the indignity that he suffered -- near the bottom of the stadium two young boys, 13, 14 years old, were pushing, shoving, unkind words. suddenly he walked up, finely tailored shirt, black suit, tie, soaking wet. he said, "boys, this is not what madiba would want for us. madiba is about dignity, loving each other. hug each other, don't fight." a wonderful moment. the two boys, they stopped. they listened. they shook hands, they walked away. i don't know a lot of 13-year-olds back home who would have responded that way. that's the kind of power mandela has in this country over people. that when his name is spoken,
people pay attention. mean something to them. >> a beautiful story. so interesting, as well, because nelson mandela was the first person to say, though, even though he now is seen and has the power of something like a secular saint, he was the first person to say, "i am not a messiah, i am not a prophet." he was a little bit uncomfortable with the idea that people would see him as more than a man. >> reporter: wonderful, he was humble yet bold. yes, he told people that, "i am not a messiah. i'm just a humble servant." in the 1960s he said, "gentlemen, one day i will be president of south africa." >> wow. a lot of self-confidence. >> you got to have it. everybody's not called.
those are often often on the path to great not. you heard terms about the world spirit resting on a particular era, but i think nelson mandela understand that he was a vehicle for something bigger than himself. >> i wonder, dr. frasier, how much of that self-confidence is rooted in the fact -- we often forget this -- in the fact that he was born to travel the world? >> right. leadership was in his jeans as such. if it's not in your mind, it doesn't matter. it was how he saw himself that created the destiny that he essentially carved out for himself. he accepted the self-sacrifice that was required. there was any moment in which he could have denounced violence, could have gotten himself into a different situation but didn't do so.
>> so many times in prison he was offered an early release. every time he said no. >> exactly. he knew what he stood for which was a nonracial south africa. he was going to compromise on that goal. moreover, as i said and you said, he saw himself as a leader of a future south africa. he could not deny his party and his people for his own self confidence. >> winnie mandela, more members of the family streaming in, as well. the service was supposed to start 34 minutes ago. started running late, i guess in part because of the weather. president obama has delayed his departure from his holding ho l hotel, as well. it was those act of self-sacrifice that increased nelson mandela's power because he refused to allow his movement to be divided. >> absolutely. he understood he wasn't going to sell out. the bottom line is he understand
what his principles were and understood that he had greater power if he resisted, if he refused to take the small measure to get the larger measure. i could get out of jail, i could move on. but the nation wouldn't be moved forward and the cause for which he was willing to die wouldn't be furthered. he didn't take the payoff and gained the nation's respect. >> that held true for nelson mandela for most of his life. sadly, perhaps, the same cannot be said of all of his family. a lot of family disputes in recent months and years. some south africans feel that other members of the mandela family, in fact, have sold out. >> look, i've written a book on marvin gay, one on tupac, one on the family. that's is not unique to the mandelas. bishop tutu, of course, said, "please do not sully or soil the reputation of this great man."
it's not inherited, his leadership. that means even the family cannot have transmitted it to it the dignity and grace that the leader had. there may be legitimate prosecutions now, some about the ownership of the rights to his art. some about whether the children who were exhumed and taken from one place are now repatriated to their rightful place. there are all of these squabbles that all families go through. this happens to be on the international stage. >> with a lot of spotlight. we saw the world leaders coming, dr. frasier. and the model that nelson mandela set for truth and reconciliation commission to deal with the cycle of recrimination and revenge and try to end it is a model that has been followed in -- to help end other conflicts since then. >> it has. and i think actually we need it look at it more often.
restorative just. instead of a punitive process. right now the international court has a different model, being used in africa almost -- not almost, 100% exclusively. all of the international criminal court cases are african cases. one would wonder in a country like kenya why we are not following that path of reconciliation and justice rather than a punitive process which can pit communities against each other. i think it's a model of truth and reconciliation, one that we need to eliate even further because it worked in south africa. it worked in the united states. after our civil war, no one went to jail. none of them went to jail. we had to reconcile the community. it helped put us, the nation, on a path toward greater harmony, greater social just.
we're not there yet, but we're further along the path. so i think that that model of south africa and the united states for that matter can be a model that's very relevant across africa. >> dr. frasier mentions the civil war. we already talked about the example of george washington that nelson mandela followed. and mentioned, as well, he does share so many quality, doctor, with abraham lincoln in how he handled these conflicts in his political skills. >> absolutely right. if it was -- you know, bringing the opposition closer, there was a machiavellian understanding that you've got to keep your enemies close. but also a better chance to persuade and convert people with kindness. old preachers used to say you can win more followers by honey than vinegar. i think in that sense, that lincolnan since of practical politics, principally driven by one's beliefs, but also
practic practical. i'm not going to be wed or tethered to an ideology. instead, i'm going to have faith in my opponent to come to the table, to negotiate and work out a compact that will save the nation. i think dr. frasier's right. one of the grand ironies, of course, is that we've applied that forgiveness to ourselves in forgiving ourselves but not others. >> i want to go to an interview that his daughter gave the bbc yesterday talking about her father's legacy. let's listen to that now. >> for me, when i look at my dad and look at his life, nothing -- there's nothing if you set your goal, a life goal, all of us, to be a better person, to give back to society. because i don't think my father fought just for political
freedom. my father also fought for spiritual freedom, to free yourself virtually. he talked about that it takes courage to have forgiveness. forgiveness is a difficult thing. i don't think it was easy. i don't think he woke up and said, "i forgive those who incarcerate me and everything." i think he knew if he didn't forgive, he would be forever imprisoned himself spiritually. and if you're not free here, you cannot be free definitely here. and so for me, the lesson is to have -- the lesson we can take away from his life is to have the courage to forgive other people. your own husband, if you are married, your own children, your own neighbors, your own community, people -- if we have the courage to forgive as human beings, there will be no wars that we see around us.