tv Charlie Rose PBS November 11, 2014 12:00am-1:01am PST
>> rose: welcome to the program, first up the president's visit to china. we talk with edward luce, orville schell and cheng li. >> don't forget that, you know, the central plank of president obama's foreign policy, perhaps his legacy, the thing he most wants to be his legacy is the pivot to asia. which he announced, well, which hillary clinton, then secretary of state announced in president obama's first term. and the chinese, even before xi jinping took on the top job, the chinese see this as a thinly veiled strategy of u.s. containment. and xi jinping has been more explicit aboutee seeing it as such. >> rose: we continue with tony fadell, the c.e.o. of nest. and we talk about the fast developing internet of things.
>> you have to be able to give information to an entity, whether that's a computer or a person. if you have an assistant, that assistant knows a lot about you. whether it's a humana sis tenant or a computer assistant. and to have them help you, you need to be able to give them some information. now what's really important, though, is that the communications are secure and private and that it's not sold, right to the highest bidder. and so we were very clear when we did our acquisition with google about that. and what we were-- what was going to be different about our business model. which is we sell products, not apps. we don't sell data. and so you have to be really worried about the data that goes, or where it goes, what's done with it but we try to be very transparent, you know, about what we do and how we do it. to earn trust. >> rose: we conclude this evening with point and shoot, a new documentary with matthew vandyke and marshall curry. >> i was first 4 by 7 foot with
a small circle in the ceiling for light. you pace back and forth. you try to sleep at night but occasionally you hear people being tortured. you don't know when your night is coming, i trimmed down my fingernails and toe nails so they couldn't rip them out. you rehearse what you will say during interrogation, you pace, you sing songs to yourself, whatever it takes. >> rose: the president in the china, the internet of things and young americans fighting in libya when we continue. funding for charlie rose is provided by the following: >> rose: additional funding provided by: >> and by bloomberg, a provider of multimedia news and information services worldwide. captioning sponsored by rose communications from our studios in new york city, this is charlie rose.
>> rose: president obama arrived in china monday morning for a three-day visit. regional leaders have gathered in beijing for the annual ash- pacific economic corporation summit. tomorrow on wednesday president obama and chinese president xi jinping will engage in a series of one-on-one meetings. "the new york times" reports the visit will capture the complexities of the united states-china relationship, the tensionses of a rising power confronting an established one. as well as a promise that the world's two largest economies can find common cause on issues like climate change. from china the president will travel to burma and then to australia before returning to washington. joining me now from washington is edward luce, the chief u.s. comment tater for "the financial times". his latest piece is called china is no refuge for obama's woes. from uc berkeley orville schell of the asia society joins us, he has a piece called china strikes back. it recounts his september trip to china with president jimmy
carter. and with me in new york, cheng li, the director of the john l thornton china center at the brookings institution. i'm pleased to have all of them here on this program. i begin with you. tell me what is the status of u.s.-china relationships today? >> uncertainty because there's a different direction, china and u.s. china relation can go. so it is a critical time. now we know that china is a paradox of hope and fear. probably more so today than any time in the past 25 years. and on the hope side, china just launched very strong anti- corruption. and also wants to adopt a very ambitious market reform. and they also talk about the world law. but at the same time, the political control can control media, also reached the peak. and that is a serious concern
about the direction china is going. so at this time, that the apec meeting occur and president after five years-- . >> rose: ed, tell me where you think the relationship is. and where the president is reflecting on your column today, going to china. >> well, i was on the trip, the white house trip in 2009 when obama, president obama made his first visit to china. and then of course he was very much at the height of his domestic standing. the democrats controlled both changes of congress. and obama's global standing, he just received the nobel prize. and global standing was really at its pinnacle. and the chinese under a different president then you had jintao, a much more low key character than xi jinping treated him pretty shabily. he came offering a big g-2 level of cooperation for the u.s. and
china to cooperate tackling global warning, international terrorism, the aftermath of the 2008 financial meltdown. and china really didn't want to hear any of this. it didn't want to step up to the plate. and it kind of spurned obama and treated him, as i say, not particularly well given how warm the president's overture was. well, fast forward to now, exactly six years later, and president obama's domestic standing is, of course, at a low point following the mid-term elections last week. the relationship as you quoted at the beginning of this is a lot more complicated. china under xi jinping is a lot bolder and a lot more ambitious than it was under hu jintao and his predecessors. and i think obama goes very much as the weak leader who is on the decline, who's got two years left. but whose party is out of power in washington. and xi jinping, as the most powerful president since ding jaw ping probably so, we've got
two very, very different positions for the leaders. and a much more complex agenda. xi jinping wants to develop what he calls a new great power relationship. and this is something that makes president obama but america in general feel fairly uneasy. i wouldn't be hugely optimistic that president obama's leverage in this context is going to be very big. i'm sure xi jinping will be polite, will roll out the red carpet at the apec summit that's taking place there. will go reasonably well. but i don't think this is the kind of situation where president obama is going to be a successful demander. >> rose: orville? >> so much has changed as ed pointed out, since obama was last there. on the one hand we have a tremendous shift in the real power relations between both
asia and the united states and china and the united states. but i think even more of an impediment is china's sense that at last it has kind of arrived. and it does no longer as deng xiaoping bid them to keep their heads down and bide their time so, there is an attitude that has shifted dramatically. which means a lot of the old tool kit that the united states usually brings to bear in the relationship such as pressure, is not operable any more. and i think really what's missing despite all the protestations on both sides that there is much common interests shared, and we really should find a way to get together, to wit xi jinping's notion of a new kind of big power relationship. i don't detect a tremendous amount of willingness to really hunker down, man-to-man in a congenial way to solve problems. we see much more sort of
suspicion about the motives of each. and so i would have to say that the climate is not terrific for the kind of breakthrough that i think people are very nostalgic for on both sides, from the days of kissinger, nixon and even jimmy carter who you will recall in 1979 engineered the re-recognition of china and the normalization of diplomatic relations. >> rose: i want to come back to both those points. and point out also that this comes after xi jinping had just seen the japanese prime minister abe, he has seen vladimir putin. so he's stretching his connections. >> sure. >> rose: to other power centers. >> but in china's mind, and xi jinping's mind, that the u.s.- china partnership is the most important bilateral relationship in the 21st century. china cannot afford not dealing with the relationship in the
right term. so they have to emphasize-- heavy emphasize on the u.s.- china relationship, they believe china reconciled the relation with russia, largely to have the leverage to deal with the united states. china also believes that with japan,-- it has backing of the united states. so therefore, u.s. is the real power that can make a difference in the chinese perspective. so xi jinping wanted to improve that relationship, especially see that opportunity. a person to person relationship. xi jinping has emerged as a strong leader. but at the same time he also cares u.s. trem lus-- tremendously. he is not anti-u.s. person as some people believe. i can give evidence. first, he has a lot of american friends. and also, he said to the chinese public recently he loves hollywood movies, he loves american novels, and he loves
sports, and the n.b.a. his daughter studies at harvard, to finish her four year undergraduate training in the united states at harvard. and his wife has been heavily engaged with bill gates foundation. its prevention, tobacco control and et cetera. these are really show that the he want to have constructive, very friendly relationship with the united states. but at the same time, on there is concern about the u.s.- containment against china, want to pull china down. sow has to react, respond to that kind of concern. >> rose: is that based on his-- if he believes-- do you think it's him or is it the army that believes that the united states wants to contain it? >> well, the u.s. want to contain china, it's wide spread spentment-- sentment in china. >> not just with the ministry, not just with the leader, but also the chinese public in general.
now how deep it is unclear. but it's widely spread, the sentiment. >> i'm always surprised by that. i mean we mentioned earlier here that china feels like it's arrived and wants to be recognized as an equal with the united states. and would seem to me that that would give confidence to the relationship. >> one thing, charlie, if i may, i think that often we don't appreciate that in this yearning that china has for sort of global standing and to gain the respect of the world, that underlying our relationship with china, indeed all of the western world, is completely different political systems and different values. and this makes it very, very difficult for the average american or european who is just
in london and oxford, to really respect china in the way that china wants to be respected. and i think we, at one point, did succeed in sort of putting the different political systems and values to one side and getting on with the questions of common interest. kissinger, nixon did it. carter certainly did it he had a real lovefest with dung xiaoping, and now this may be sort of the bitter prodginy, the different political systems in our values continue to grate and mitigate against us really feeling comfortable with each other and affording each other the kind of respect which i think china historically has worked tremendously hard to attain. and for whom it matters a great deal. >> rose: ed, is it possible that the president will say look, i may not be able to do much domestically over the next two years, but certainly there was a whole range of foreign policy challenges and opportunities. >> yes, i do think that. but don't forget that, you know, the central plank of president obama's foreign policy, perhaps his legacy, the thing he most wants to be his legacy is the pivot to asia.
which he announced, well, which hillary clinton then secretary of state announced in president obama's first term. and the chinese, even before xi jinping took on the top job, the chinese see this as a thinly veiled u.s. veiled u.s. strategy of u.s. containment. and xi jinping has been more explicit about seeing it as such. so part of president obama's pivot to asia, it's not just shifting military resources to the pacific region, the pentagon sort of rewaiting there, away from the transatlantic presence. it's also the economic initiative, the transpacific trade partnership which president obama wants to really push ahead on this asia trip. and the tpp has got 11 countries in it. but one of them isn't china. china has not been invited to join the tpp. japan is in it, australia is in it, south korea is in it and so forth.
so it's going to be quite hard, i think, with that kind of deep suspicion that there is a u.s. ensierk-- encirclement going on. even under what is perceived to be a fairly weak president, it's going to be quite hard for that president, for president obama to say look, let's cooperate on isis or on, you know, shoring up the iraqi government or persuading iran to conclude a nuclear deal. you know, these things can't be compartmentalized. >> rose: isn't china continuing to buy iranian oil? >> it is, indeed. and it has very different interests in terms of iran than the u.s. does. of course, there is another pivot to asia going on. and that's the russian pivot to asia. that is a very close friendship between, well, a very close relationship, at any rate, between president putin and xi jinping. i'm sure your viewers would be aware that one of the best selling books in china right now
is called "putin the great." he's seen as something of a model, as a hero, as somebody that will stand up for to the u.s. and stick up for your national agenda. and china sees a lot of commonality in that perspective. so i think this sort of qlim at for obama to say let's work together on myanmar, et cetera, is not as propitious as he might hope. >> rose: so what should the president do? >> the president does end up in china with a limited number of or the of prospects for major cooperation. one paradox is north korea. because i think the chinese, you don't need to get more than one glass of wine in a chinese friend or diplomat to hear them just be as expass rated with pyongyang as the americans are. so that i think is kind of a hopeful area. climate change has been, you know, infinitely retreating
horizon of hope. everybody, ever since obama came into office had hoped that the u.s. and china would be able to really have a major collaboration. and china is doing a good deal on this front in a sort of patchwork piecemeal way. but washington is so bollocked up it is hard to know how that will happen. and many states like california have very ambitious and very active climate change collaborations with china. and i think the subnational level gets more hopeful on this front. but of course that's not going to help obama much while he's in beijing. >> what might come out of this? >> i think the economic cooperation will be a major outcome. i think you cannot imagine the international economic integration could, you can exclude china or the united states. so therefore, the number one economy and number two economy have to cooperate together. now they compliment each other, that the united states want china investment. they have money, which would
create a job. at the same time, u.s. company can access china because the-- open the service sector which includes public health, education, logistics, green consumption and particularly the pollution control technology and product. united states company have leverage in this area. so therefore, there is tremendous room for cooperation. environmental protection, energy, antiterrorism, in all these areas there is a tremendous room for development. obama just announced that the united states will offer chinese businessman and visiters five to ten years visa. this is extremely welcome in china. this is a good sign that the u.s. and china want to cooperate on the economic front. but also, beyond the economic exchange, but also i will mansion the values, to a certain extent there are differences in the values but also shared values or universal values such
as rule of law. when the time announced in china there was no middle class, even when i visited in 1990, early 1990s there was no middle class. but now middle class is changing china in a profound way. in a moment, the demand is for a safe environment. >> rose: thank you very much, thank you, ed, great to see you, thank you, orville, thank you, cheng li, we'll be right back. stay with us. >> tony fadell is here, the founder and c.e.o. of nest, the company's revolutionizing how we use unloved products in our home. these include thermostats, smoke detectors and more. google bought nest earlier this year. they paid $3.2 billion, it is said. that was previously at apple where he lead teams and created the ipod and iphone. he also authored more than 300 patents. i'm pleased to have him here at this table for the first time. welcome. >> well, thank you, charlie. it's great to be here. >> rose: give me the sense of where you think nest will go.
>> so-- rses explain nest to me. >> so what is nest? well, it was born out of the idea, really, of looking around the home at these products that we have been using for years. they're really important products like thermostats and smoke alarms. and saying they haven't been really changed since i grew up. and it was like why is this? so when i was building a house in lake tahoe and designing it for my family, i wanted to be the greenest, most connected house. and what was really-- what was really strange was i was still could buy these products, but they were more expensive than an iphone or ipod at the time. and they had nowhere near the capabilities. and i was like there's something wrong here. and so i said why don't we go look at taking the technology we know of in these other connected products like a smart phone and let's reinvent the products that
are so important in our lives and homes. >> rose: so how are they so-- what's the end product? >> sol, well, first one is a thermostat. so it is's called the nest learning thermostat. and we made it look beautiful first, first of all. and the reason being su put it on your wall. you care about the art you put on your wall, the furniture. why should you have a plastic grain box that you don't even know how to use. >> rose: right, right. >> and so that was first make it beautiful so people made it interesting for them. but then because the thermostat controls over 50% of your home energy bill in the u.s. that is
over a thousand, g $it00 t should be easy to use so it can help you save money. and stay comfortable. so we did things like it turns itself down when you're not at home. so text when are you home and make sure it is on or when are you not there, it turns itself down. and it learns from you. typically you had to program thermostats before. you had to say when the time i wake up, what time i go to work, those kinds of things, when i come home and you had to program it. like a 1980 vcr. and no one did that. and it was true. no one really programmed their thermostats to save energy.
so instead what we do is we just learn as you turn it up or you turn it down, it just says oh that's when you-- . >> rose: you learns from your life experiences. >> exactly. >> rose: so where are you going to go into, give me a sense of these unloved products that are a fertile ground for you. >> our second product is the smoke and co detector. it just beeps today. we decided to change that we also have cameras. but for us, when we look at all of the different products in the home there are all kinds of appliances, dishwasher, your dryer, your refrigerator. those are all kinds of very interesting products. and there is a lot of innovation there. but they don't have the idea of, you know, how much does it cost for energy.
when are you home, when are you away. when might it break down so we're working together with different appliance manufacturers to bring that information and connect it all into one space so that these products can become intelligent. we can't build everything. but we do think that all of these things should be connected in a common way in the home so it can be more convenient for you. >> rose: how did your experience at apple serve you in doing this? >> well. >> rose: i mean you developed the ipod with others. >> with others, it takes a team. well, for me, you know, i worked at a company called general magic before apple. and i learned really how to do products. and the reason being t was the mack team minus steve building this iphone 20 years, very early. but at apple, what i really learned was about experience. designing a product, not just designing a great product but an experience. how you learn, first learn about the product and how it's marketed. how it's sold in retail. how you-- once you buy it, then how you unbox it. you know, the ceremony of a box. we see a lot of those things on line now where people are taking, just unwrapping the product and making a video about it and then from there, installing and configure rating it, and using it, servicing it. all of those things amount to a product experience. and so that's really was the thing that i saw at apple that was very different than anywhere else i had worked. >> rose: what was it that steve, this is not just one broad question about steve's genius and all that. what did he add to that process? >> well, one was discipline. so making sure we looked at every single element, right. and going why do we do this. and seeing the cracks between
the experience. you know, when you were in retail to when you unboxed it. what were the cracks in the experience, and making sure we filled those cracks. the other ones were, you know, sometimes we would be struggling, a team of us, really, really smart people would struggle with a problem for six, seven months and steve wasn't really a part of it. he told to us go off and solve it. and we came up with three or four option. but we would present him the three or four options and showed him this is the best of the worst options. and then he would come in, and basically really not having the details. he would come in with a fifth option, that was just break threw. and we would all just sit there and our jaws would be on the table. >> rose: why didn't i think of this. >> exactly. and you just went, okay, you know. it was just amazing.
>> rose: a unique experience. >> absolutely. >> rose: when you left apple did you think we're going to go create a company that will make us rich or did you have other visions? >> at the time i was really, i was already retired with my wife, with our kids, they were young. >> she had left apple, the space between leaving apple. >> my wife had also worked for steve for almost a dedade. >> rose: what did she do for steve. >> she was head of hr for all of apple. so she helped build the big team. and we had been working so hard. so we wanted to take time for our kids. then i got anxious and we traveled the world. and as we were designing this home in lake tahoe we started living in different houses all around the world with our kids. and i was like, they have the
same problems like we have in the states. no one-- all the same problems. that is where it got me the bug am and i was like okay. >> rose: when i get back. >> when i get back. and then actually we cut the trip short because-- . >> rose: really? >> yeah, because it was like, i got to get back. when you have a good idea. >> somebody might be gaining it. >> someone might have this idea. we have to run back now, much to her chagrin. >> rose: what did you do when you left? you were young. >> yeah. >> rose: and you had a family. >> yeah. >> rose: you had a lot of money. and the idea was what? when you left apple, to find myself, to take care of my kids. >> no, it was really about, well, both of us, were working so intensely. and we had had a newborn and a one and a half-year-old. and what-- it was a really important moment where we came home and our son was crying, something had happened that day. and he ran to his nanny instead of my wife. and that was the moment we both looked at each other and said something's not right here, you know. we need to focus on-- . >> rose: he was crying and ran to his nanny. >> exactly. and there are these special times that money can't buy back. right? when the kids are small. and they're cherished moments, 0and don't squander those. and that was the whole reason
for, we just said okay, now it's time. and steve really respected it. he was wondering when my wife was going to tell him that. and he was really beside himself, distraught when she told him and we both told him. >> rose: did you go in together or separate. >> it was separate. it was separate. >> rose: he knew-- whoever went first, who went first? >> i think i did. i think i did. >> rose: so he knew. >> he knew it was coming. you know, we also went in together when we decided we were getting engaged. >> rose: oh, really. >> yeah. >> rose: you had to get his approval. he's like a priest. >> we didn't go that far. i didn't even ask for my-- my wife's hand in marriage with her father. but we didn't go that far. but it was a very interesting moment when we told. because we did it very, very secretly. >> rose: it sounds like almost a family. >> yeah, it was. it was. >> rose: it-created there at apple. >> oh, without a doubt. he was-- you know, when we, when we first realized we were pregnant and we told steve, steve literally went and he took us each one-on-one outside and
spent an hour, two hours. and we talked about just having kids, individually. and it was so, you know, we see the genius. we read all these books and what have you. walter's book. but when you actually have those moments and he really cared. he said let me tell you some of those things that really were important to him about raising his kids. it was amazing. >> rose: david kelley as you know and who worked with steve, when he found out he had cancer, steve was like all over it. let me give you my experience. let me tell you what you are going to feel. 9let me tell you what you should do. and let me tell you how you can avoid whatever mistakes i may have avoided or may have not avoided. >> and we also had a similar thing with one person on the deal. that was david kelley. but we had a person who was a very good engineer. and i said steve, we have someone who has cancer. and he literally took the time to talk to this person, help them through it, and said i'm going to help get you the best doctors. you know, he went to that level. it wasn't just, you know, people who were his friends, but people who were inside the company, because as you said, it was like a family. >> rose: so it was hard to leave, i would think.
>> oh, absolutely. you know, not just steve, but i have so many friends there. still have friends there. and also the team, you know, that i built. but you know, these things happen. >> rose: you like to use the term conscious home rather than smart home. >> yes. >> rose: because? >> well, smart home has been ever since the era of the jettisons, you know. i remember being, you know, in disney world in '75, '76, and there was homeless tomorrow presented by some big brands and everything. you went through it and it was how we was, you know, you press a button, it would be smart and understand the nutritional content and some kind of food would come out and you would never have to pick up a finger. we heard it again in its '80s and '90s about smart home. we don't think it's about one button and automation of everything. press one button and the lights go down, the shades come down, the movie comes on. it's really about these simple problems that you have in life
and getting rid of those. so you request live your life with your family. >> rose: so what-- what will be the manner of human beings to interface with these products? >> well, i really believe it shouldn't be more than it is today in a way. it should be simpler. >> rose: ease of access. >> ease of access. we're to the going to get rid of light switches, people are like why did you-- a thermostat should be a sensor and you should use your phone for everything. >> well, maybe in 20 or 30 years. but right now we're accustomed to very easy access. and look, if you are two years old or three years old, kids are still to the going to v i don't think, are going to have smart phones at 2 or -- they will still need to touch-- or you have guests, you're not going to use your smart phone for that. >> rose: here is what "time" magazine said, fadell fews of smart gadgetry differ from many of his competitors. when he set out to reinvent the thermostat the prevailing thinking was that it would turn into a miniature computer. manufacturers were adding photos, they were adding a calendar, the weather, he said. in other words, they were loading thermostats with bells and whistles. but they weren't actually making them work better. it made no sense to me, he said. how about we look at the basic
function of the device. >> exactly. what is it supposed to do. and is it delivering on that. and that was-- . >> rose: it's really the right question what is it supposed to do. >> yeah, don't keep adding more and more features, right. and that was the genius of steve which is continually cutting things out, and getting right, not too little, not too much we are every day learning more about how much silicon valley companies know about things. how much they know everything about our life. is that good? >>i think if you want convenience, if you want convenience, and you can't hire- - . >> rose: you have to sacrifice privacy. >> no, not privacy. but you have to be able to give information to an entity, whether that's a computer or a person. if you have an assistant that assistant knows a lot but, whether it is a humana sis tenant or computer assistant. and to have them help you you need to be able to give them some information.
now what's really important, though, is that that, the communications are secure and private and that it's not sold to the highest bidder. and so we were very clear when we did our acquisition with google about that. and what was going to be different about our business model. which is we sell products, not apps. we don't sell data. and so you have to be really worried about the data that goes, where it goes, what's done with it. but we try to be very transparent, you know, about what we do and how we do it. to earn trust. >> tell me about the google acquisition. >> well, it was a long courtship. two and a half years earlier i was at a ted conference. and ser gei britain was there and sebastion said you must, must, must talk to certificate gla gaus he was helping us. and i had the vest nest
prototype. >> i have a feeling sebastion is everywhere. >> he is a great guy. he is, hes had his hand in lots of things. he is a very smart guy. and sergei saw it and said this is wonderful. can we buy you. and i was like no, not yet, no, no, that's not it. can we invest? and that's where it started. then there was subsequent investments into our company with others, not just google. and ultimately we went out for more money and we had money on the table to make the next investment. then larry and the team approached us. we said we think now is the time. >> rose: so tell me why you would sell, though. first of all, you have real hard line experience. you have access to money. why did you need google? >> well, this was about a mission.
it wasn't about money, you know, in terms of cashing out and going to a beach. >> money not to cash out but money to do what you want to do. some people have great entrepreneurial ideas but they do not have the capitol. >> correct. and but our vision is so large of what we want to do, we needed to expand our products and our developer, you know, partnerships as broadly as posh. and then we had to go across the world. before we did the acquisition, we saw our products being used in a hundred countries where they weren't even sold. and i'm like how long is it going to take to get to those 100 countries. and now it's 130 countries and growing. and then we went to canada and we were going to the u.k. and building offices and finding teams. and then i'm still trying to, you know, put on new products. and it was becoming-- i hate to wait for the future. i wanted the future to come today. and so this was something that, you know, when i was talking to larry and we were talking about the vision, we were completing each other's sentences. and i was like, okay, you know,
that was the reason why we did it. is because we could accelerate the future, bring it in much more rapidly. and that's what it was about. we started the company for a mission. and we want to see it fulfilled as quickly as possible. >> rose: what's the mission? >> the mission is really to build a conscious home. and a conscious home doesn't mean as we said a smart home where it is technologically different, a conscious home is a home that you know, over time we-- over the last, you know, hundreds of years, we've always taken care of our homes. is there a way our homes can talk back to us a little bit so they can take care of us? could they give us information so that when the dishwasher, before the dishwasher breaks and ruins the floor, you know, can it-- can we actually get ahead of it when i'm using in energy much more so than i thought i did, because i just get the bill at the end of the month and it's opaque where the money was spent, how can i get better information to make better decisions so that i can be more
energy efficient. and then ultimately be better for the community, better for the world. >> so where's all this going, do you think, in terms of what is going to happen within the next 20 years? >> next 20 years. well,. >> i have a feeling we're just beginning to scratch the surface of the power of the digital revolution and our understanding of human genomics. >> well, you have touched on it, which is genomics. but when i look back, you know, ten years ago, 15 years ago, who would have believed the ipod grew up into the iphone into the ipad. when we started we started here and it want to this and the same thing with the home. now i'm seeing that in genomics. you're seeing us really getting a better understanding of some of the very lowest levels of our biological system. but we don't even -- >> we're been talking about the genome, right, an we've been talking about dna and reading dna. and think of thats alike hardware, like computers in the
1950s. right above that, then we started putting software above those computers. well, there is a thing called the epi again only that is right above that, we know almost nothing about. that is the software. it is like the software on top of the hardware. and they both influence each other. we nothing almost nothing about the epigenome even though we can decode a lot of the hardware piece so, there is so much more to go, but technology, digital technology is helping us understand biological systems much more rapidly and we'll see where that goes. but 20 years, i have no glue because i didn't even know what the year could look like in ten years when we started on the ipod. i wish i had a looking glass to see in the future, but i don't. >> rose: thank you for comingment. >> thank you, charlie. >> rose: pleasure. back in a moment, sta with us.
matthew vandyke and marshall curry are here, they collaborated on a new documentary called point and shoot it follows matthew from his family home in baltimore to fighting along side libyan rebels against the force of qaddafi. point and shoot won the award for best documentary at the tribeca film festival it opens in cinemas on october 31st. here's the trailer for the film. >> i was raised on action videos. all my adventures were virtual. >> i'm the new indiana jones. >> i was sort of sheltered and spoiled growing up. >> here i what, in my mid 20s. my mother and grandmother were doing my grocery shopping. i had to do something drastic. >> a crash course to manhood. i thought i'm going to hit every single arab country. i am filming and photographing. it was incredible. and then libya happened.
>> a revolution is spreading across the arab world. >> governments have fallen in tunesia and egypt. will libya be next? >> the friends i made in libya were better friends to me than almost all my friends in america. >> one of my friends said why doesn't anybody help us. i wanted to be shaping he ghent- - events around me and making an impact. and now here was the arab spring challenging my very image of what manhood was. >> baltimore resident matthew vandyke is armed and fighting with rebels in libya. >> i spent five and a half months in two different prisons. and it absolutely transformed me.
i had grown out of matthew vandyke. >> everybody tries to create their idealized image of how they want to be seen and who they want to be. >> rose: wow. a lot to talk about just from the trailer. let's just start with the title, point and shoot, is that about guns or cameras? >> both, really. you know, matt's story is, when he was young, he had sort of had a really severe case of obsessive compulsive disorder that was sort of paralyzing. and decided that he wanted to go on what he calls a crash course in manhood. >> rose: what does that mean? >> a journey of self-discovery and development. kind of growing up fast track to growing up, becoming a man. >> rose: was it a moment in which you said i've got to go do something that will define me to my own satisfaction?
>> well, i had originally intended to work for the u.s. government. and i was opposed to the iraq war. so i no longer wanted to work for the government. so i went to my family's beach house awhile, did some manual labor, thought about it. and then remembered that i had seen a travel adventure film by an australian filmmaker. and i thought that's what i want to do. there was sort of a moment it hit me, and quite quickly i bought a motorcycle and a camera and was off. >> the mystery of the film, at the center of the film is how does someone like him ends up becoming what he did. >> right, right. >> no, i mean it's an extraordinary story. an when matt, the way we got together, matt sent me an e-mail and then came to new york. and told me and my wife who was the producer on the film the story. and it is unbelievable. >> rose: but he had footage. >> and he had footage, right so it is sort of a filmmaker's dream come true. how could somebody have such an
adventureous story and also documented it. >> rose: but what was missing to tell a different story was an interview with him. >> right. >> rose: you needed that as the spine of the piece. >> that's right, that's right. >> so i went down to baltimore and did what appears in the film to be, you know, an 85 minute conversation but it was really about 18 hours of conversation shot over a couple of days. -- days and then came back to new york and put the film together. >> rose: there's another line that is interesting, in how you use the camera. you may have said this, marshal, that he used the camera to control a sort of obsessive compulsive disorder. and it's like putting a frame around the experience. >> right. >> rose: so that he can manage it and order it. >> yeah, i mean salman rushdie has a great line about how we use stories, tell stories about ourselves in order to kind of control our lives and to craft who we are. and in matt's case he used the camera to write his autobiography t to tell his story. and his obsessive compulsive disorder is part of that, but it's bigger than that? >> rose: now, did you guys
always see the same way or were there creative differences over what this film should be? >> there were differences, but we worked them out. some battle its i won, some battles marshall won. >> early in the movie, when matt first approached me, it was clear that i needed to have complete creative independence and control of the film. and he agreed to that. and so obviously nobody ever has an 85 minute film told about-- never in the history of documentary films has there been the subject of a film that said yes, this perfectly captures everything in my life. so yeah, we mixed it up a couple of times. but i think it turned out well. >> rose: how-- tell me about the arab spring and how it changed things for you from simply being somebody who wanted to see the
arab world on eye motorcycle to someone who wanted to become a soldier. >> well, in my case it was largely personal reasons. hi been to libya. i made good friends there. the arab spring started, egypt, tunesia. i stayed at home. i supported them from afar. but when it hit libya, my friends in libya were telling me what was happening. friends and relatives being arrested or killed. one of them said, why doesn't anybody help us. i realized i couldn't sit at home and watch from my sofa this happen to people i cared about. so i went. >> rose: tell me who nouri is. >> nouri is a libyan friend who is in the film. he's actually a hippie libyan, he traveled about ten years by foot all over the world. and we met in 2007. and we hung out. and i went to libya in 2008. and when i went to libya to fight, i joined his group. he had actually gone from hippie to fighter. >> rose: and when were you arrested. >> i was wounded and captured on parch 13th, 2011 during a reconaissance mission. >> rose: and what was that like? >> i was struck in the head.
i have no memory of the actual capture but i woke up essentially in prison hearing a man being tortured in the room above me. and i spent nearly six months as a prisoner of war in solitary confinement. >> rose: and what was solitary confinement like? just in a small room, nobody-- no light, no -- >> yeah, my first was about 4 xi 7 foot way small circle in the ceiling for light. you paced back and forth, you tried to sleep at night but occasionally you hear people being tortured. you don't know when your night is coming. i trimmed my fingernails and toe nails so they couldn't rip them out. you rehearse what you might say during interrogation. you pace, you sing songs to yourself, whatever it takes. >> rose: how did you get
released? >> one day prisoners came to my cell during a prison break, broke the lock off and we ran from the prison. >> rose: did you worry that you were being set up? >> i did. when we got out to the courtyard i worried that it was a sets up and we were all going to be gunned down and qaddafi would blame it on a prison break. >> rose: tell me what you went through as you got deeper and deeper involved. >> i went through a transformation for one thing. >> rose: what kind of transformation. >> well, when i first went, it was largely personal. helping people i cared about. often partly ideal logical. but over time the experience of fighting on the front line, my experience in prison, getting a taste of what people in the country had gone through, and ultimately our victory in seeing people's faces when they celebrated freedom for the first time completely transformed me. >> dow understand what happens, though, that all of the dreams have been smashed. >> democracy is not a panacea. plenty of countries it is fairly common for a country that goes through a civil war to go through another one. >> rose: so what is going to happen? >> libya will be fine, eventually. i have faith in libya and faith in libyans. >> will you go back? >> yes, i've been back since the war ended. i've been back twice. >> rose: what roll dow want to play in libya's future.
>> it's up to them now. it's in their hands. i will go back and support them anyway i can. >> what story are you trying to tell here? >> well, you know, when i saw matt's footage for the first time, i was really struck by a few things. one was the way that the cameras used to kind of craft the story. and to craft his own kind of auto biography. but it's not just matt. i mean there are shots in the film where you see american soldiers, you know, asking matt
to film them right before they kick a door in. and they want to be looking like soldiers. or the most incredible. >> rose: soldiers who want to look like soldiers. >> exactly. they want to look like their idealized version of a lollee wood soldier. to me the one that really blew me away were the shots of libyan rebels. you sort of think this selfie culture is in a uniquely american thing. but there are these shots of american rebels in the middle of battle spraying machine gunfire and three other guys filming them with their cameras so they can have shots, that they can send to their girlfriends and put up on youtube. and so that was one of the themes that really amazed me as i started looking through it and talking to matt about it. >> you said an interesting thing. you said everybody wants something they could share on facebook.
>> so did you answer any questions about yourself that you needed to answer about manhood or anything else? >> did you find what you were in search of? >> i think i did. when i first started i went to morocco. i was afraid to leave my hotel room and four years later i was fighting in an african civil war. so something happened. >> rose: tell me what it was, you should know, you experienced it? >> it was personal growth. it was, you foe-- . >> rose: strength, courage, finding yourself, being tested, all that. >> a mix of courage, a mix of self-sufficiency, independence, you know, being able to take care of myself and having to, and doing it under difficult circumstances. learning to deal with stress, learning to deal with some of the most difficult conditions imaginable. and also learning in some ways to cope with my ocd in countries that, you know, are a little less than sanitary. >> rose: interesting. >> one of the things we talked a lot about is how life doesn't fit into a hollywood movie script a lot of times. and you know, the question of how we define manhood and matt's definition of manhood changed over the course of his travels. and when the arab spring happened, it was less about having these raw bone motorcycle adventures and more about putting yourself on the line for a cause that you feel is really important. and you know, the movie, i
think, asks a lot of questions that it doesn't answer, you know, it ends with me asking matt, you went on this crash course in manhood. were you successful. and we cut to black and the movie is over. the goal of doing that was to get the audience to engage with so many of the questions that matt asks and that the film asks. how do we define manhood. >> this is a very different subject but dow have any understanding in terms of what it is that is so appealing to people to join isis? >> a combination of young men having an urge for adventure seeking. young men being attracted to war. people being dissatisfied with their lives and the countries that they are in. and religious zealotry there some case. but actually in syria, there are quite a few fighters in these groups that actually are not radicals. but because these groups are funded and they have weapons and ammunition, they join the groups
and essentially fake it so they can actually fight in the war as opposed to sitting at a check point with no bullets like they would do if they join another unit. >> do they want action? >> yes, a lot of it is that. over time they generally become radicallized, though. >> does it clip i want to show now. this is matthew in the heat of battle. here it is. nass's the most filmed-- cameras-- or guys that sell-- i will have a camera in one hand, ak-47. and these guys are concept of
war is television. guys standing up with machine guns by themselves in the middle of the battle and spraying ammunition at the enemy. they wanted their picture taken with the gun, so they can show their friends, their family. anyone they would like to impress. everybody wants something-- everybody tries to create their idealized image of how they want to be seen and who they want to be. >> rose: point and issue is the film. is it all you wanted it to be. >> i think it's a terrific fill. >> rose: is it what you hoped to achieve, this film as a reflection of an experience that you were at the centre of? >> yes, it does a decent job on most points, yes. >> rose: so if you were doing over, what would you like to do? >> if i did the film over, if i did the experience over. >> rose: both.
>> i wouldn't change the experience in any way. even the time in prison was a formative development experience for me. that i don't, i'm not bitter about. you know, you get caught, that is what happeneds to you. it gave me a lot of time to chart out the course of my life afterawards. as far as the film, marshall did a good job there are some things, some of the questions that he left for the audience to answer, i'm eager to answer. >> rose: like which one?
>> why, why i went back to the front line after escaping prison. >> rose: and the answer is? >> i had made a commitment to the men i was with. i told them i wouldn't leave libya until libya was free. and my mother raised me to keep my commitments. i also wasn't going to leave as long as there were other prisoners of war being held in the country. and i wasn't going leave until we had won. >> rose: thank you marshall, thank you, matt. >> thank you, thank you. >> rose: thank you for joining us. see you next time. for more about this program and earlier episodes, visit us on- line at pbs.org and charlie rose.com. captioning sponsored by rose communications captioned by captioned by media access group at wgbh
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