tv Charlie Rose PBS April 25, 2016 12:00pm-1:01pm PDT
>> rose: welcome to the show. we begin this evening with david cohen, deputy director of the c.i.a. >> it's important to understand that sanctions in and of themselves are not the tool that's going to fundamentally alter behavior. they are part of an overall effort, and with respect to the sanctions against russia for their activities, their aggression in ukraine, i think there is a fair debate and some intelligence to back this up that it did have an impact on the trajectory of what was happening in eastern ukraine. >> rose: meaning they might have done more if the sanctions had not been applied? they might have been more aggressive with other ball tick countries? >> i'm not going to get into any great detail on this, but i do think that you can make a credible argument that the
sanctions, frankly, combined with what happened in the overall oil markets, which had a real impact on russia's economy, caused putin and his crew to think harder about what they were doing. >> rose: and we continue with hassan sheik mohamud, president of somalia. >> somalia is just in the corner by establishing state institutions in place, by defeating the scornlg of the terrorism that was in control for a long time, and now they are revitalizing the energy of the society, it's resources, it's agriculture, there are beautiful opportunities. >> rose: we conclude with radhika jones and "time magazine"'s list of the world's
100 most influential people. >> there is a way where you have the same 90 people year after year, but we really want to keep it fresh because we want it to feel like a snapshot of the moment, and so we take a lot of pride in making sure that every year the list has a new kind of energy. >> rose: the c.i.a., somalia and "times" 100 list, when we continue. >> rose: funding for "charlie rose" has been provided by the following: >> and by bloomberg, a provider of multimedia news and information services worldwide. captioning sponsored by rose communications from our studios in new york city, this is charlie rose. >> rose: david cohen is here, he has served as deputy director
of the c.i.a. since the treasurr financial intelligence and the key architect of the administration's sanctions against iran and russia. he's also led efforts to disrupt the financing of i.s.i.s. and other terrorist groups. president obama visited saudi arabia where he talks about the fight of terrorism and heads to germany to talk about terrorism strategy with european leaders including angela merkel and france president francois hollande. i am pleased to have david at the table for the first time. welcome. >> thank you. >> rose: it is said you know as much about sanctions as anybody in the obama administration. give me a sense of how you made them learn to work, how effect they are, what effect they have to have and, once you've applied
them and taken them off, is it difficult to put them back on? >> i think sanctions are enormously effective if we have a couple of key elements. one is a linkage between what the sanctions are trying to achieve and overall u.s. government policy and that we e second is that we have ase. much international buy-in and international cooperation as possible. we have a global financial system, a global trade system, our sanctions are much more effective when we have our partners around the world working with us. and i think the third key element is a very clear objective, and i think the sanctions against iran are a good example of that where we had all the elements of the u.s. government working together, we had international buy-in, and the objective which was to bring iran to the negotiating table to
negotiate seriously about their nuclear program was a clear objective that we were trying to achieve with sanctions. >> rose: so what sanctions remain. >> with respect to iran? >> rose: uh-huh. so the sanctions are related to their nuclear program by and large have been relieved. >> rose: how much money did that bring them once those sanctions -- because there is some debate. >> one of the misperceptions is somehow iran got access to new money as a result of the sanctions being relieved. what happened was, over the course of time, the sanctions put off limits from iran money that they had otherwise earned. so when the sanctions were relieved, they got access to funds that they had earned over time, selling their oil that they couldn't get access to. >> rose: also give them a new revenue that came in because the sanctions are no longer there. >> sure. and part of what i think the expectation is is that, with the sanctions being erelieved, you know, the number of the financial institutions in iran, for instance, which had been put off limits or are no longer off
limits to banks outside the united states, that you will see economic activity pick up in iran, that, you know, the restraints that have been put in place will be relieved and, frankly, i think that's part of the bargain here, that in exchange for very, very significant restrictions on iran's nuclear program, they are allowed, once again, to engage in economic activity in the world -- >> rose: including being with american companies like boeing and others. >> well, there are still some restrictions -- many restrictions, frankly, on american companies working with iran. there are specific vair r carve-outs and i think boeing is one of them but by and large american businesses are prohictd from dealing with them. >> rose: what would have to be done to change that is that. >> statutes would have to
change, the law. >> rose: russia, ukraine, that's what precipitated the sanctions against russia. some would argue russia hasn't changed its behavior at all and, in fact, they have been more aggressive as they've sent troops and supplies and planes to syria. they have withdrawn some of that, but no one can say, mere is an examp -- here is an example of where the russians did something because of the impact of sanctions. >> so i think it's important to understand that sanctions, in and of themselves, are not the tool that's going to fundamentally alter behavior. they are part of an overall effort, and with respect to the sanctions against russia for their activities, their aggression in ukraine, i think there is a fair debate and some intelligence to back this up that it did have an impact on the trajectory of what was happening in eastern ukraine. >> rose: meaning they might have done more if the sanction
might not have been applied. >> correct. >> rose: they might have been more aggressive with other baltic countries? >> i'm not going to get into great detail on this, but i think you can make a credible argument that the sanctions, frankly, combined with what happens in the overall oil markets, which had a real impact on russia's economy, caused putin and his crew to think harder about what they were doing. >> rose: and you have intelligence that tells you that? >> i'm not going to go into any details on that. >> rose: i that it -- i thought you just said that. >> no. >> rose: so with respect to i.s.i.l, how were you able to disrupt -- not sanctions -- but disrupt the incoming revenue? because they have, as i understand, probably been able to raise more revenue through, one, taking over banks in
countries and places and cities they occupy and through other means, whether trafficking or otherwise, including hostage-taking. >> right. most of the revenue that i.s.i.l has amassed in the two years or so that it's been in iraq and syria has come from two principle sources: one is robbing banks -- and when they swept through mosul and elsewhere, they took over banks, emptied out the vaults -- and the other was the sale of oil. >> rose: right. those are the two principal sources. the third is the extortion of the population they're dominating. on the banks and on the money that they took out of the vaults, that's not a recurring revenue source. it's a one-time hit. they can drain the banks of this cash, but it's not being
replenished. and as you may have seen in the last, you know, month or two, the coalition has been targeting cash depots where i.s.i.s. has been storing the cash, bombing them and incinerating their cash. >> rose: and knocking out their finance guys. >> their finance guys, so haji imam, the deputy, was head of their finance operation. >> rose: when you take out somebody's principal, how long does it take to replace someone of equal talent? >> what we've seen in other circumstances and al quaida is probably the best case study of this is, over time, it's very difficult to replace the folks who are lost, and i think, with i.s.i.l, the people who are around abudua, our assessment is he surrounded himself with the
most capable people he can find in that horrible organization. as you take those people out, it is difficult to replace them with people of equal caliber. that being said, they are an adaptive terrorist organization, and we will see them and have seen them try and, you know, fleet-up people into positions where people have been taken out. >> i ask this not as an aggressive question but more as a curious question: why can't you take out b bugadi? >> the targeting, the action is done not by the c.i.a. but others. >> rose: c.i.a. provides the information. >> right, and we play a critically important role in helping to find and fix critical leaders in i.s.i.l. >> rose: as with al quaida and
osama bin laden. >> and with haji imam, for instance. having said that, we are working on baghdadi. >> rose: what does that mean? we have a variety of means by which we collect intelligence in iraq and siri against i.s.i.l. the whole spectrum you might imagine. we have sources, we have technical means, we work with partners, we work with others in the u.s. intelligence community, we, you know, are applying all of the resources that we possibly can on a variety of topics. one is finding baghdadi. it's also working against the e term operations network. you know, there is a whole spectrum of activity that we're collecting intelligence against. >> rose: is there an upward trajectory in your sources of information about i.s.i.l because you're there, you're on the ground, you're developing sources and i would assume you have to have sources who are of
syrian and iraqi descent. >> we are on the ground in baghdad. the ability to run sources in a terrorist organization like i.s.i.l is difficult and it's dangerous. >> rose: right. we're working very hard and have been for, you know, several years now to enhance our intelligence picture in i.s.i.l. i think every day we're getting better. we're getting more sources in place and developing better intelligence. >> rose: let me talk about how you acquire information in 2016. obviously, you have cyber capabilities. obviously, you have social media capabilities. obviously, you have people on the ground, human resources. >> right. >> rose: is the equation between the three of them
changing at all? because so much terrorist activity is communicated on the internet, and that's why we see such an emphasis on encryption by our adversaries in the terrorist world. >> human intelligence, running sources, developing spice has been the foundation for the c.i.a. since its founding in 1947, its predecessor as well. that will always remain core to what we do. but we are also increasing our activity in the digital domain. one of the things we've done recently at the agency is create a new directorate. the directorate of digital innovation, it's called. and its mission includes a host of different activities dealing with the digital domain, including improving our
capability to collect intelligence of the type. so, you know, someone throws away a cell phone, we want to be able to extract intelligence from that cell phone. so the increasing amount -- and not just terrorist organizations -- the increasing amount of intelligence that is potentially available in the digital domain is something that, you know, if we're going to do our job effectively, that we need to be focused on. >> rose: give an example of what that means. >> so i think -- so a perfect example is exploiting digital media of the type that you described. so someone tosses away a cell phone, we want to make sure if some i.s.i.l operative, you know, maybe got captured, may throw away a cell phone, that we are able to identify who it is that he's been talking to, where he's been, you know, what sorts of connections -- >> rose: can you break almost
any encryption? >> so, you know, there's been a lot of discussion about encryption. we work really closely with our colleagues at n.s.a. >> rose: and the f.b.i. and f.b.i., working on encryption issues. it is a challenge. i think the director of c.i.a., director of the f.b.i. have spoken to the difficulty encountered with encryption. >> rose: so has the president of the united states on the side of -- >> of absolutely strong inscription. it's critical for -- strong encryption. it's critical for commerce and legitimate purposes, but we're also working quite hard to be able to develop intelligence. also, one of the other aspects of cyberintelligence that we're working on -- and you mentioned this -- is the social media. >> rose: right. there is, as everybody knows, a lot of, you know, tweets and other information put out on
social media by foreign persons. it's important, when we talk about our work in open source intelligence that we're looking at foreign persons, not u.s. persons. but i.s.i.l, for instance, is an avid user of twitter. they tweet things out constantly, and it can help us understand their plans, their intentions, their capabilities, their goals. we have finite resources. running a human source into i.s.i.l, as i mentioned, is difficult, it's dangerous. >> rose: but you do it. we do it. absolutely, we do it. but we also combine with human intelligence the that we collect, intelligence we can collect in the open source. c.i.a., throughout its history, has taken what is given to us in
the open and combining that with what we collect clandestinely. >> rose: another part of the battle against i.s.i.s. or i.s.i.l, as the government calls it, is that we read reports of the pentagon supporting some rebel troops in syria, some anti-assad, i.s.i.s. troops, and the c.i.a. supporting others. how widespread is that? there have been a number of reports. >> i am not going to get into what the agency may be doing in terms of supporting anybody in syria. the work with the syrian kurds you were referring to has been an important element of what the defense department has been doing in syria.
there are factions among factions, among kurds, certainly within syria. there are an array of groups that are anti-assad, anti-i.s.i.l. coordinating all that -- >> rose: and some are anti-assad, anti-i.s.i.l, and anti-u.s. >> for sure. >> rose: can we assume that assad is in a stronger position because of russian support? >> the answer is yes and no. >> rose: okay. what's the no? >> the no is that assad is quite dependent on russian support. so if you go back to last summer, i think the reason that we saw the russian intervention in the fall was that, over the summer and into the fall, assad was losing badly. the iranians and hezbollah
weren't able to stem it. the russians came in and bolstered assad's position. >> rose: and said they were. and said they were. the russians also said their principal objective was to fight against i.s.i.l, but what they did predominantly early on was to bolster assad. >> rose: because putin believes in a strong state, not so much assad, but a strong state is crucial because he looks at libya, as does president obama, and says that's a disaster because it is a state without central authority. >> what russia was most concerned about was losing its investment, as it were, in syria. and they wanted -- >> rose: what's their investment in area? you mean in terms of before -- >> years and years of involvement in syria. it is a place in the middle east
where they have had some involvement for several decades now. but to get back to your question whether assad is stronger, he was certainly bolstered by the russian invasion, the russian, you know, assistance, but if that's not there and, you know, we've seen the cessation of hostilities over the last, you know, seven weeks or so -- >> rose: i'm going to get to that in a moment. >> -- and if the russians are not supporting assad, i think there is a fair question about how secure assad ought to feel. >> rose: talk to us a bit -- and this is a central issue -- about this conflict between saudi arabia and iran. >> what we contribute to this conversation is. is helping the president and senior policymakers understand iran's perspective on the region, on how they view their role and what they're doing in the
region, why they're doing what they're doing and, likewise, the saudis, we obviously had a much closer relationship with the saudis than iranians and diplomatic relationships. >> rose: friendship with one and adversarial relationship with the other. >> yes. >> rose: why are the saudis so upset? >> the saudis and others in the gulf were concerned, and they expressed this concern with the negotiations and the ultimate nuclear deal with iran. they were concerned that that was somehow going to undermine their security. i think the president and the national security team and we have been involved in this as well have made it as clear as possible and have acted on this with the saudis and others in the g.c.c. that we have their back, that we are supporting them, that we understand that
iran is involved in regional meddling, is interfering in regional affairs whether in yemen or syria and that we are with them in protecting their countries against iranian meddling. >> rose: as they so aptly demonstrated when iraq invaded kuwait and looked like they may want to go to saudi arabia. >> sure, quite a number of years ago, but absolutely. >> rose: do you believe -- here's what interests me in terms of saudi arabia. everybody knows there is a relationship between the saudi royal family which goes to the head of state in the country, king salman, and the religious clerics within saudi arabia, how do you see their spreading of wahhabism, which some believe is a breeding ground, in part, for
people who look at the most extreme elements of it and think that it suggests to them that it's okay to join i.s.i.l? >> so what has encouraged people to join i.s.i.l, even, you know, sort of the most extreme elements of wahhabism and what i.s.i.l is, you know, proclaiming and frankly what i.s.i.l does, i think there is a difference there. i think the saudi royal family's relationship with the religious establishment in saudi arabia and, frankly, as they understand their role as sort of the custodian of the two mosques, as the center of islam, they have
spread their view of islam around the world. there are those who make the argument that has created the breeding ground for extremism. there is an important difference to be drawn between violent extremists who claim the mantle of religious -- >> rose: radical extreme islam. >> -- yeah, and a particular strain of islamic thought. >> rose: the taliban seem to be on the marchl in afghanistan. they seem to be gaining ground. they seem not willing to negotiate. what does that say to an intelligence person? >> what we see with the taliban, particularly with the onset of the new fighting season, which is in the last several weeks begun again, is we see a taliban
that feels emboldened, they feel they are strong, have the capability to challenge the afghan government, and, you know, that obviously plays into the question as to the possibility of some sort of reconciliation between the afghani government and the taliban. but we also work extremely closely through the defense department with the afghans and their defense ministry and security forces in devising ways to fight against the taliban and protect the government in afghanistan. i think we see this fighting as being a difficult one for the afghan government. >> rose: how difficult? i think it is going to be
certainly as difficult as last year. >> rose: but if they continue steadily gaining, they're going to -- >> i think they have been making inroads and pushing back. so kunduz, for instance, the taliban took kunduz briefly and then the afghan forces pushed back at kunduz and there is now fighting further south in afghanistan. what the taliban has done over the last year or so is taking districts, taking outposts. they hav-- they haven't taken mr population centers. we expect this fighting season is more the same of small-scale gains by the taliban, but the afghan forces, assuming they
precede as effectively as possible being able to hold back the taliban. >> rose: one last question, north korea. >> uh-huh. >> rose: what worries you? well, what worries me is north korea has nuclear weapons. >> rose: yes. that north korea has missile technology. they've perfected their short range missile technology. >> rose: do they have the capacity to launch a nuclear intercontinental -- >> so they have never -- >> rose: -- ballistic missile with a nuclear war head? >> they've never tested an intercontinental ballistic missile. they have done space launches which they did earlier this year which is technology quite similar to intercontinental ballistic missile but they've never tested an intercontinental ballistic missile and they've never tested with a dummy warhead to see if they could have a reentry vehicle.
that being said, north korea is a significant threat. they have nuclear bombs, they are working on their missile program. >> rose: they have a value system. >> they have a leadership there that is very aggressive in their rhetoric, feels that they, you know, have some reason to feel threatened by the united states, which is -- >> rose: they feel that, they genuinely feel that. >> i think they genuinely feel that. >> rose: okay. i think it's not a legitimate fear. i think the united states has made abundantly clear we're not interested in overthrowing kim jong un but it is a real threat.
>> rose: you are the deputy director of the c.i.a. >> yes. >> rose: does it suggest that the c.i.a. in looking at the world needed within its leadership someone who had a fine sense of the impact of financial resources on policy? >> so i think it was less that than what the c.i.a. has historically had in its leadership and its director and deputy director is someone from the inside, someone from the outside. >> rose: and politicians, even. >> yeah, so when leon panetta was the director, his deputy was someone who had grown up in the agency, and i think that balanced between someone like john brennan who grew up in the agency and someone like myself who had some interaction with the intelligence community but wasn't of the intelligence community, is, i think,
consistent with at least the modern history of the agency of having an insider and outsider in the director and deputy director slots. >> rose: what is the current rules of engagement for sort of paramilitary activity by the c.i.a.? >> we have the paramilitary operation. it has been part of the c.i.a. from our founding. it's something that began at the office of strategic services, so our predecessor. how our paramilitary officers are engaged and where they may be engaged differs widely depending on what the mission is. you know, it is always consistent with u.s. law. it is always consistent with the rules that have been set, if it's a covert action program, from the white house, the president controls covert action, the president defines
covert action, sets out the authorities for the c.i.a. and conducting covert action and, so, you know, the particularities differ from situation to situation, but the foundation, the sort of key element in every instance is that it's consistent with u.s. law. >> rose: good to have you here. hope you will come back. >> would love to. >> rose: david cohen, deputy director of the c.i.a. back in a moment. stay with us. >> rose: hassan sheik mohamud is with us, he is the president of somalia. he is in new york to address the united nations security council and attend the signing ceremony for the paris climate change agreement. his administration is somalia's first internationally recognized government in 20 years. he has been widely credited for his record in combating corruption, piracy and terrorism. later this year he will stand for reelection. i am pleased to have him back at this table. welcome. >> thank you. >> rose: tell me what you hope
to accomplish with the security council. >> the security council, i came here, first of all, to brief them of the progress somalia is making and to demand -- request them to make adjustment on the security council resolutions that have been existing there for somalia and make base with the progress that's been happening on the ground. those are the two main objectives. >> rose: can you tell us about the tragic ship wreck that took place in the mediterranean. >> it is very, very sad. this is not the first time, but this time it was very big. still, the information is not complete, but what we have receiving, if it's true, it's very tragic. and this is all about indicating in terms of somalia the hope that the chances of a better life that is not existing in
somalia, that is all about this when a couple hundred people from somalia died. >> rose: and 200 of the 500 who died are somalis. >> that is true. there is one case example, charlie, if i tell you, the last time when somali state collapsed was early 1991. a boy who was school age at that time, five years old today, never went to school, formal training, so that's what makes them helpless. it's very, very priority for us to create hope for those young generations. >> rose: tell us about terrorism in africa. >> terrorism in africa, and particularly in the whole of africa, is -- it has been -- it's big sometime, now it's not. the main reason why it was in the past is there was a large territory in somalia where the
terrorists established themselves with training camps and all this. now the reality on the ground has changed in the last four years. there is a governor system in somalia expanded. today, there is not someone in charge. yes, we can say the institutions at the local level lack capacity, but we have federal, regional states are there now controlling somalia today. >> rose: there are what, i'm sorry? >> somalia is federated, become a federal system. federal member states. >> rose: but there is a rise in the al-shabaab, boko haram, al quaida on the arabian peninsula, all of these beyond the middle east which people are concerned, in asia as well. how do you see the rise of this
militant, radical, violent islam? >> in the case of somalia, i would have not categorized them as rising again. these people have been controlling all over somalia a few years back and now there is no specific mainly town or city they do control in the remote areas, but this is a big war. it's almost a world war, and in the case of somalia or in another case, when someone is saying there are indications there is something bad in one place or another, in a very big war, it happens sometimes the
battle field something which is not likable happens. but i don't see any reason where they are becoming bold or powerful, particularly somalia. >> rose: you do not? i do not. >> rose: what is the -- how does somalia as one place and a broader sense in africa feel about the united states and its role? >> well, for us, the united states has always been a very good friend for somalia since 1991. the united states was the second government in the world that recognized somalia. so the number of the american embassy used to be number two. >> rose: what's number one. ussia was number one. >> rose: so since then, good relations.
sometimes there is ups and downs in the relationship. >> rose: where is it now? now is the best time that we enjoy a good relationship with the united states because we have one common enemy that we all of us are fighting together side by side. >> rose: and what is that enemy? the extremist al-shabaab or terrorism, global terrorism all over the world. they have good networking so the rest of the world and somalia and the united states are partners in the war and we're doing fine. >> rose: are you seeking a closer relationship with russia? >> somalia is seeking a good relationship with all over the world. there is no one country who is not violating the principles of -- >> rose: well some friends are better than other friends and things you would like to have. >> of course, some friends are bert and closer than others. that's true. the united states is very close with somalia. >> rose: russia? ussia not yet.
we are starting now. >> rose: what are you asking from them? >> reestablishing the relationship again, and somalia is a country in a post-conflict environment and we ear starting to reconstruct from zero. so we need every partner that can reconstruct the partnership in a manner that doesn't affect the relationship with our other friends. >> rose: china? china, we have a relationship in the past and they are reopening their embassy in mogadishu, and they are partners that are contributing and supporting somalia. >> rose: what does somalia need, in your judgment? obviously, economic growth? >> yes. right now, the war against extremism, in the military front, it has been progressive. but the war on terrorism in the external region is not only military, there is the economic
and social factor. so somalia is now beginning, and one of the reasons why we came here was, in washington the last two days, is to seek further support to the united states administration to support the economic recovery of somalia, improving the lives of somalians. >> rose: by trade? economic grants? >> they're doing that by providing certain infrastructure that stimulates the economy, improving the irrigation system, improving the roads, supporting the agriculture extension. this type of a small microprojects right now is what somalia is getting, and we are selling the world the idea of the investment in somalia, not necessarily yesterday or the day before, but today, it is the
question of somalia. there are some other places in the world where somalia has presented the economic opportunities and investment doesn't that exist in somalia. >> rose: a columnist argued in the "new york times" that obama wants to make a lasting and low cost investment in africa's next generation he must make science and technology a central focus of the development debate. >> yes. >> rose: you agree with that totally? >> i do agree. >> rose: how do you do it? i do agree, and yesterday we have a very long discussion with the u.s. aid, and one is supporting the overall vocation of somalia in terms of vocational training, overhauling the education, training the philosophy and mission for long-term engagement. so education is what shapes the
society, particularly the psychological aspect of the society in the long run to become worldwide citizens that contribute to the world. >> rose: for individual countries, how large a problem is corruption? because you've had so many examples in different places, and every nation has had examples of corruption and graft and fraud and all that. >> mm-hmm. >> rose: how problematic is it for african nations? >> in jen, corruption is a phenomenon most african states are fighting with, establishing platforms to compete -- to combat the corruption. in places like somalia, it's discretion because of the weakness of state institutions in place, because of the poverty
is very rampant, these are the factors that contribute. but the most important thing is building state institutions that can make checks and balances necessary for combating the corruption. >> rose: it's interesting because many people look at africa, many people with investment portfolios, they look at africa as the continent of the future, perhaps because of where it is and the enormous natural resources that are there and what is necessary for africa, they suggest, to be a subject of great investment is rule of law, confidence in the government. >> well, you know, charlie, africa is a very young
continent. we don't have the essentials of state building in many parts of the world. all those positive attributes you see, the resources, the young nation, many parts of the world, populations are aging. africa is a young continent in terms of population. >> rose: and that's such a positive for economic growth. >> but still there is a long way to go in building strong state institutions and developing the culture, not only the institutions of the rule of law, of course very important, but also the culture of statehood is a phenomenon. in africa, tribal clan are still forces that are pulling back when the nations try to move forward. >> rose: and how will that change? >> it is changing us. the economic growth is improving us. education is improving us.
the knowledge is improving very fast, that's what makes africa one of the fastest growing economies in the world. >> rose: what's your own economic growth rate? >> somalia? >> rose: yes. 3.7. >> rose: better than the u.s. for the first time in the history, i report somalia last year indicating 3.7% is the economic growth in somalia. 2015, we're still waiting the report, but we are expecting more. >> rose: better? better, yeah. >> rose: so what's the story you want to tell the world about what i want to tell the world is somalia is just down in the corner by establishing state institutions in place, by defeating the extremists, the sowrnlg of the terrorism that -- scourge that controlled the country for a long time and
revitalizing the energy to have the society. it's agriculture and livestock. beautiful tufnts. >> rose: -- beautiful opportunities. >> rose:. it's harnessing the capacity of women. >> yes, that's the hope. africa is a young continent and women, hope is high. >> rose: you want the resources of all the people. >> of course. >> rose: thank you for coming. thank you very much, charlie. >> rose: we'll be right back. stay with us. >> rose: who are the world's most influential people? "time magazine" is out with its choices. it's called the world's 100 most influential people pioneers, artists, leaders and icons who
shape our world. radhika jones is the deputy editor of thyme -- of time and the one i hear who is in charge of this. >> thank you for having me, charlie. >> rose: how is this different from the year before? is it composition, recognition of certain kinds of things making this special? >> well, the list is about influence, and it doesn't really bow to any particula particular. it's not about wealth or fans or box office or the usual metrics we count on to tell us who's on top. so we debate a lot internally at time. we think broadly about who is owning their field. who is rising and having influence, not just perhaps in a
single lane but across boundaries, and also who are the people -- you know, we're a news magazine and we cover every aspect of cul of -- >> rose: culture, science, technology. >> exactly, who are the people in those areas who are starting conversations and making us think? there is a way to do a list like this where you sort of have the same 90 people year after year, but we want to keep it fresh because we want it to feel like a snapshot of the moment. so we take a lot of pride in making sure that every year the list has a new kind of energy. >> rose: at the same time, there are people who appear here like the president of the united states, the president of russia. >> yes. >> rose: like angela merkel. exactly. although what's interesting about those three examples -- yes, they have been on the list many times -- but the aspects of their leadership that we choose
to high light every year change, and that's what keeps it fresh for us and the leader. angela merkel had a very different year this past year. >> rose: because to have the the refugees. >> exactly. and the same for putin who found himself having influence -- >> rose: syria, the middle east. >> in different ways. that's what we try to pay attention to. >> rose: i have favorites. okay. >> rose: stefan carey. he's changed basketball in a way, a phenomenal year, record breaking for an n.b.a. team, and he's made the 3-point shot. >> i resisted it for a while because i grew up in the era of michael jordan. >> rose: prejudice prejudice prejudice. >> and i thought, how could anyone -- but he is phenomenal and in a totally different way. people really look up to him. he's become a role model. we had misty copeland write the peace about him and they are friends. >> rose: it's interesting because i've written these how
you choose people to write. for example, when i was on the list, you chose michael bloomberg to write. here leonardo dicaprio is on the list and he gets john carey. you choose, why john carey writing about an actor named leo dicaprio? >> the answer is he high light a very particular aspect of leonardo dicaprio's influence. we also saw him win an oscar of this year, it was a long awaited moment for one of the actors of his generation and that's huge for him in the world of cinema. he's a powerful environmentalist. >> rose: he was in paris and made a speech. >> that's right. his foundation for conservation has been around since 1998. and he and john carey have worked together on a number of things and john carey brought out that side of him which we
hope will be interesting to read snores mark zuckerberg and his wife, mark has been on before and his wife is a highly regarded m.d., doctor. >> that's right. >> rose: and they're here and together and written by bill and melinda gates, another couple of equal weight and talent and shared ambition. >> this was a fun one. this was the year mark zuckerberg and priscilla chan wrote an open letter to their new daughter talking about their plans to fund an initiative the to funnel money toward innovation and moon shots. so we wanted them to be on the list together because we felt they represented a new generation of philanthropy and activism. >> rose: tan hasy coates and brian stephens writes about him, a brilliant lawyer who's done a huge amount to bring justice to people who's gotten people off death road and other places.
>> he writes about ta ta-nehisi coates. >> rose: lin-manuel miranda written about by j.j. abrams who they did "star wars." >> j.j. abrams had a big year. possibly lin-manuel miranda is the only one who had a bigger year. but they're both creators and they help us see the world in different ways. >> rose: what's the ratio men to women. >> 40 women on the list. >> rose: 60 men. yes. >> rose: how many non-americans. >> i think about half and half in terms of where they were born. >> rose: and what's the largest group in terms? is it politics, science, culture? >> it's roughly politics and sort of world leaders. but there are a lot of people
who wear two or three hats or even four hats. >> rose: pope francis is on the list? >> he is. >> rose: why is he on the list? >> give me a good reason why he shouldent be. >> rose: i can't. >> rose: joe biden. we thought joe biden would have good things to say about that. >> rose: joe biden's wife jill biden and writes about dennis mcgregory. o started a hospital treating victims of rape in war, in the congo, and it's a hugely necessary -- unfortunately, necessary service. >> rose: he's another culture player, kendrick lamar.
>> kendrick lamar and kendrick lamar piece was written which one of the founders of "black lives matter." >> rose: caitlyn jenner. wayne names has a transgender daughter and writes about the p perspective of a parent about caitlyn jenner having to courage to come out. >> rose: mark edwards and mona anna atisha. >> they were two of the people who blew the whistle on the situation in flint, michigan. the doctor provided evidence children's lead levels were rising and mark took on evidence that said something was wrong with the matter. >> rose: thank you. thank you. >> rose: thank you for joining
the following production was produced in high definition. ♪ and their buns are something i have yet to find anywhere else. >> 'cause i'm not inviting you to my house for dinner. >> breaded and fried and gooey and lovely. >> in the words of arnold schwarzenegger, i'll be back! >> you've heard of connoisseur. i'm a common-sewer! >> they knew i had to ward off some vampires or something. >> let's talk desserts, gentlemen, 'cause i see you