tv Charlie Rose PBS June 3, 2016 12:00pm-1:01pm PDT
>> rose: welcome to the program. we begin with a speech on foreign policy by hillary clinton in which she launched an attack on the fints of donald trump to be president. we talk about that and other political issues with mark halperin an john helleman. >> i'm not saying she won the election today, but if she wins i think today will be looked back at as a very important day. because she showed the ability to define trump with humor and intellect and emotion and confidence. i would say better than she has in the entire campaign to date. >> rose: we continue this evening with former general david petraeus, also ca and commanding general in iraq. he talks to us about fallujah, targets in the fight against isis. >> we are starting to win, without question. i mean we're certainly making
gains. and now, in fact, it actually allows us and really requires us to focus on the real center of graphity in iraq which is why this-- gravity in iraq which is why this all went wrong in the first place which is iraqi politics. >> rose: we conclude with cory richards and adrian ballinger, they attempted to reach the summit of the world's highest mountain, mount everest. cory richards made it, adrian ballinger stopped 125 feet short. we talk about the experience now that they are back in the united states. >> there's a purity to it. i mean i just believe that rather than bringing a mountain down to our level, we should try to rise up to the level of the mountain. and that's not to say that everybody can do that. i mean genetically that's just not viable for everybody. but for people who, you know, can do t i think we should try. >> rose: politics and hillary clinton's foreign policy speech in which she laid out an attack against donald trump. general david petraeus on the war in iraq, syria and afghanistan.
and two remarkable young men who attempted to climb to the top of mount everest without supplementary oxygen. we'll talk to the one without did, and the one who came close but did not reach the summit. funding for charlie rose is provided by the following: >> and by bloomberg, a provider of multimedia news and information services worldwide. captioning sponsored by rose communications from our studios in new york city, this is charlie rose. >> we begin tonight with politics. hillary clinton delivered a highly anticipated speech on foreign policy this afternoon. in it she went on the offensive against donald trump portraying
him as unfit for the presidency. >> donald trump's ideas aren't just different, they're dangerously incoherent. they're not even really ideas. just a series of bizarre rants, personal feuds and outright lies. (cheers and applause) he is not just unprepared, he is tempermentally unfit to hold an office that requires knowledge, stability and immense responsibility. >> rose: also today house speaker paul ryan pledged his support for trump in a colume for his hometown newspaper. ryan wrote for me it's a question on how to move ahead oe colleagues have invested so much in through the years. joining me now is mark halperin
and jol henneman, managing editor of the bloomberg politics and cohost of with all due respect. i am pleased to have them back on this program. so tell me what are the implications of this speech by hillary clinton today? >> i'm not saying she won the election but if she wins i think today will be looked back at as a very important day. because she showed the ability to define trump with humor and intellect and emotion and confidence. i would say better than she has in the entire campaign to date. and it showed that she is willing to take him on assertively in a way that will inspire her current followers an i think get her some additional. it is not over, doesn't mean she ended the game today. she did a very good job of laying out the stakes of the race for commander in chief in a way that will be appealing to a lot of people, both in terms of how she did it and the material she used. >> right. i mean look, i think it's not
just this day. this week has been an important week because you have seen trump taking on the trump university stuff and not doing a particularly good job on defense. seeming kind of on his back foot. you see her now coming out and giving this speech, which is billed as a foreign policy speech t was really just an all-out assault on trump, again delivered with the aplomb and skill that mark just describe. you also saw president obama last night take donald trump on. and i thought that to me, we've seen various previews of what the general election looks like. this last 24, 36 hours, president obama very, very good last night taking on donald trump. hillary clinton today, very, very good take on donald trump. although trump will surely reply to hillary clinton in more detail and more vossive russly than he has, is he out there twitting saying lying hillary. crooked hillary. it just, the stature gap seemed very large today. and in argument-- this argument on commander in chief it seems
to me is maybe the strongest argument she has. because it is the basic question a lot of people who are movable in the electorate have. is donald trump fit to be, is he really up to being presidential. commander in chief. she's going straight at it. >> rose: this is beginning to be a referendum on him, if in fact it continues. >> yeah. you know, our colleague martha mc-- on fox news said something really smart yesterday. she said trump is going basically from a company that has been private going public. and if you look at bots, the question is he fit to be commander in chief and the trump university stuff, these are not issues would come up and have the same relevance. in the context of trying to be president trump, these attacks on her business record, her attack today on whether he is really up to the job, serious job of being commander in chief, require a kind of more public response than he is giving. is he has succeeded being untraditional.
but there are certain things about the job that the clinton campaign is et being, and i think they're right. that a majority of americans want done in a somewhat traditional manner. if you are sued, you have to respond in a somewhat traditional manner. if you want to be commander in chief, you have to behave in a somewhat traditional manner. she is belting that the country will look at the portrait she's painting and make a referendum on him and one that he will lose, that is their bet. >> this shows you, not just has he not been called on to respond as a private citizen, but he was not really called on to behave as a republican candidate, against that republican field. this last 36 hours has revealed very stark way, is just how weak his opposition was when he was running for the republican nomination. no republican attacked him in this-- from a position of authority, attacked him in a thorough-going way on this question of commander in chief question. none of those other campaigns either had or deployed it in an effective way, opposition research on the questions that have been raised about trump university in the way the clinton campaign which is,
again, she has had many problems politically. she still has problems politically. but that is a professional, large, well managed operation, armed with a lot of money and a lot of research. none of his republican opponents were like that. and so he is suddenly in a very different world. not just a different electorate, but up against a very different class of opponent. >> the performance today and the speech, the way it was written, the way she delivered it, was reminiscent of the way bill clinton or barack obama would go after donald trump. it was very authoritative, light touch, a lot of humor, and a lot of companionship with the audience, an intellectual companionship with the audience of us against him. we all agree that this is not something that should be allowed. >> rose: and suggesting there is no coherence in what he did or said. >> right. >> rose: there is this. she faces a california primary on tuesday. will it have an impact? >> i think at this point bern yoa sanders will have the license to fight out to the convention if he wins this primary. and that's a big deal. because she would like to spend
the rest of june and most of july the focus u leakily on trump. if bern ye sander wins the primary and decides to go on, what does his day look like, with no primaries or cause -- caucuses go forward, how does he spend his team after he gets rest. whatever he does will not draw nearly as much attention. but it does mean, i believe if he wins this primary, that philadelphia is about a fight rather than about union if i kaition and that is not good for her. >> rose: what is the likelihood that he could win california. >> pretty good. look. >> rose: is he trending up. >> the polling right now, bottomline, there is polling that shows him a little bit ahead. new poll out "l.a. times" poll has him up a little bit. polling from the field poll that has her up, but all within the margin of error. i think both campaigns would acknowledge at this moment that it is a total tossup o there. and neither one of them, he gained a lot of ground over a couple of weeks. but i think now things have leveled to the point that they are going to fight this out. and whoever wins at this point is going to win by a narrow
margin. at least if we have a decent snap shot. >> at this moment, california is up for grabs. >> 100 percent. >> he's not rational. she will have the most delegates. she will have won the popular vote overall. she will have won the most states. she will have a-- she will have, with the superdog, the argument that she has got a majority of the delegates. but the symbolism of his beating her in california i believe will cause him, with harry reid and diane feinstein pressure to get out. i believe will go forward. it is possible she will give him 48 hours, call him up and say bernie, we have to come together. we can't let trump win. i don't rule out that he just gives up then. but it doesn't feel that way. >> rose: what can donald trump now do if, in fact, what she did today has some of the impact you are suggesting? >> first, i think there's big structural problems that he has not addressed. there is a lot of unease despite paul ryan's endorsement in the financial community, the donors, the bundlers. >> rose:-- is coming here. >> he is and the superpac situation is not shorted out.
which is the official trump superpac, does he want a an official superpac. who is going to be running the states, is there dissengs within his campaign. there are a lot of things within the lead republican circles are still causing problems. then i think he needs to say what he will be on offense on. right now his offense vochs personal insults, involves criticizing hillary clinton's style. she is on offense on some things, on the trump university thing. what is he really going to drive every day in a consistent way. because again, you can say and i am a big believer in this, if he has a chance to win, he has to be himself. but there are certain things that are just true. he needs a daily disciplined message that is both positive and neck tiff. and-- negative and that is she she is doing and he is not doing. >> rose: thank you, mark, thank you, john. >> thank you. >> thank you. >> rose: back in a moment, stay with us. we continue this evening with the ongoing battle for fallujah. despite advances in the surrounding countryside, iraqi forces ven countered heavy resistance.
the offensive is backed by air strikes from the u.s.-led coalition. isis fighters have controlled the city for more than two years. fallujah occupies an important place in recent history. the u.s.-led effort to clear the city of insurgents in the fall of 2004 is considered the bloodiest battle of the iraq war. joining me now is david petraeus. he is a retired four-star general and the former director of the cia. he served in iraq beginning in 2003 and commanded coalition forces from 2007 to 2008. today he is chairman of the kkr global institute. i am pleased to have him back at this table. welcome. >> great to be back with you, charlie, thanks. >> rose: put fallujah as i just referenced in context as to what it means today at this moment in the battle against isis in iraq. >> well, fallujah has always been quite symbol you can. it was the first city that fell to the al-qaeda in iraq forces. the first meefningful city that
fell to the islamic state when they swept back into iraq. >> and a lot of people came from al-qaeda in iraq. >> indeed. and it's in the heart of the sunni province of anbar. and one of the few remaining significant centers controlled by the ice lambic state together with mosul, the other principal city in northern iraq. so this is a big deal. it's also, by the way, just a short drive from the outskirts of western baghdad. it's certainly less than an hour depending on how many checkpoints you run into. and so very important battle. and what you have is a combination of all of the different elements of iraq there right now. you have obviously iraqi army elements. you have iraqi special operations forces, military elements, special operations forces, police, federal police units. anian-supported shia militia. ep in mind that fallujah is a sunni arab city, predominantly.
and you have now some sunni tribal fighters as well. all of this, the city has been encircled for some time. it's been cut off. and by the way you have perhaps as many as 45,000 iraqi civilians still in the city. in some cases being used as shields by the islamic state. this is all ready-- already taken on certain bar baric aspects, if you will, the use of civilians as shields, executing civilians that try to escape, executing islamic state fighters that try to defect, if you will. >> rose: or surrender. >> exactly. and you know what's remarkable so far, i think, is the resilience of the islamic state fighters. >> rose: they far outnumber, 20,000 plus. >> they have been encircled for some time. they have to know there is no way out. >> rose: 20,000 outside in terms of iraqi solders yns tens of thousands outside. >> rose: and maybe 1500, or 1700. >> yes. and they have, they are
continuing to fight for a variety of reasons. one is just very harsh discipline. we'll shoot you if you try to surrender. and they've done some of that. the ideology, the extremism that has motivated some of them to join the islamic state in the first place, probably doesn't ring quite as true as it did when they were siting in a livingoom in europe somewhere and volunteered to do this. but none the less, this has continued to stay in the fight. >> rose: and it's important because not only is it close to baghdad, not only is it an important city that would be a-- psychological victory as well, but how does it connect to syria? >> well, it's largely isolated now. the iraqis have in recent months largely self erred the routs that go a-- along the u freightes river valley in syria and they were able to clear the route that goases all the way to jordan in this vast anbar province. so this is more of an isolated
outpost of the islamic state. but it has been a place from which probably a number of the car bombs that have blown up in baghdad have emanated. as in a lot of the villages that surround it. and dozens of these villages have been cleared, just in the last week or two. but beyond that, until you take fallujah now, now that the prime minister of iraq has committed to the battle of fallujah, you are not going to be able to do more in mosul in terms of the further shaping. certainly we're shaping the battle field in mosul. that's been cut off by and large. there are air strikes going in. there are substantial numbers. by the way, in iraq and in syria, just in the last 24 hours, nearly 15 air strikes at multiple targets in these locations. they're getting hammered day after day. >> rose: so u.s. air power and coalition air power is a factor here. >> very much so. and a bit of iraqi air power by
the way as well. they have f-16st. other platforms. by and large this is a u.s. intelligence drifen effort that employs predominantly u.s. but also coalition and iraqi-- . >> rose: so as the commanding general and you are responsible for these men and women in this battle, you want to take the city. now what calculations enter your mind in terms of how you do it and when you do it? >> well, you don't want to destroy the city to save it. there have been some other cases in the clearance of the islamic state where enormous destruction has been done to some of the cities that have been liberated. so you also don't want to kill these civilians that are left there. they've been unable to get out. the is ram-- islamic state in many cases has prevented them from evacuating from the city. by the way, they have also prevented the red cross and others from getting humanitarian supplies in to them. so there is an urgency here because again, the longer this
goes on, the more the civilians are going to suffer. needless to say, they're not getting whatever limited food and water and medical resources are left in fallujah. and as i mentioned earlier, could be as many as 45,000 left in the city that used to be potential for conflict with the people of fallujah. the sunni arab population of fallujah. which is fearful of these militias. and afraid that they're going to be-- to bear some of the brunt of what takes place here as well. >> you said the militias are backed by the iranians. are the iran yarch-- iranians at all present. has the general been there, is he engaged. >> yes there are pictures of the
commander of the revolutionary guards corps force of iran which is u.s. designated as a terrorist organization. he has been pictured with a number of the iraqi militia leaders, including an individual abu mati mohondas who is also designated as a terrorist. he very seldom if ever set foot in iraq when i was the commander with the surge. because he was in iran and he knew if he came into iraq we would hunt him down. so it gives you a dynamic. by the way, some of these militia leaders are also members of the parliament. but back in my time in iraq they were actually in our detention they got elected tothat you parliament. >> by the way, the prime minister has used-- first of all, there is an imperative to clear fallujah without question. but this has also been a bit of a die version from the iraqi politics that have been so fractious and different groups leaving the parliament. and they don't come back until
the first of july. and so he's got a window now to show some progress and perhaps boost himself in his own ability. >> when i talked to the president in hanover, germany, he talked about the fact that he was trying to get support for the government in baghdad, from the european allies. that was one of his objectives there, especially the prime minister. has this prime minister and you have to suggested to me before, the politics is an important element. >> it's the center of gravity, at the end of day. as i told you, in fact, months and months ago, the islamic state will be defeated in iraq. that's not in question. the question is whether the iraqi politics can enable these gains to be sustainable without which drk dsh you have to get the sunni arabs back into the fabric of society, as we did during the surge. >> my question is has america supporting the prime minister because they believe he's making a serious and legitimate effort to come to some kind of understanding with the sunni
tribesmen? >> yes. the question is, he knows what needs to be done. he has stated it. he has pursued initiatives to operationallize the big idea that he has. which are the right ones. the question is, whether he can get sufficient political support in a country that is majority shia arab and where the iranian supported shia militias have quite a bit of sway in parliament as well as on the streets and in other respects. >> rose: are the sunni tribes engaged in this conflict? >> they are to a degree, in anbar province. they are to a degree up in the north and other areas. part of the problem here has been though that there has been a fractious nature here that the they can't agree well particular riti was can't agree with the anbaris. and there are fractures. so the politics in iraq are very, very difficult. and the president's exactly right to be seeking as much coalition support for the prime minister who is endeavoring to
be inclusive, which is what is required again to bring iraq back together. >> rose: how many american forces, special forces are there? >> i don't know the exact number now. >> rose: around 2,000, 4,000. >> i think the numbers have been quoted as high as five. but it depends on your counting rules and how you count the counterterrorism forces and those that come in and go out. >> rose: and what are they doing? >> well, there is a trained equip mission that is sort of behind all of this, that is regenerating the iraqi security forces to go into these fights. there is an advise and assist con exent that is creeping ever closer to the front lines. and we have had a couple of individuals tragically killed, of course, in recent months. that were nearer to the front lines than in the past. and i think this is right. we are-- we have tried how we can do this. and we're advising lower level units, again, which is appropriate. and that is enabling us also to bring our air assets to bear in
a much more effective way. >> what more would you be doing. >> to be fair, mike hayden, and other former direct are of the cia used to say a couple of months ago that the effort in iraq and syria was underresourced and overregulated. at the least, it is much less underresourced and much less overregulated now. there have been relaxations and i called for these on your show before. relaxations in the applications of the rulings of engagement. literally the bureaucracy that enables approval, strikes and so forth. so this you have less planes returning with their bombs still on, they're taking advantage of opportunities that prebt themselves. there has been the addition of a special forces element that publicly known is going after the lead ares of the islamic state and making quite considerable gains in that regard. the addition of 250 more special operations forces in syria, to help with that. and of course by the way, less
publicized i think is the effort that's ongoing there to take a pocket called a manbij pocket which is the link between turkey and raqqa, the capital of the islamic state. and that would be a stride their logistical lines and another offensive ongoing there as well. >> rose: and i'm grad you brought that up. syria, should we expect to see move gengs raqqa. >> there will be eventually. >> rose: i know eventually. but now, this president. >> i don't know that you will see-- you could see it in the coming months. >> but right now what you have to do is shape this. in the same way fallujah has been shaped by being ensiecialged and they cleared the villages immediately around it and you keep doing this so that you now have it isolated, there is a lot of work that needs to be done to isolate raqqa and also to generate the forces that could ultimately hold raqqa. you can clear it to some degree with the syrian kurds. but you don't want to push them
much farther than the areas that they should ultimately control. and if you go into a sunni arab predominant area like raqqa, you will have to have sunni arab forces do as much of that as possible. >> rose: and who is that going to be? >> well, there are forces that if they see that we will able them-- enable them and support them as we have begun to do sch more res absolutely in recent months, and with more resources, then i think they will rally to that flag. but i should add, by the way, one of the unintended consequences right now in syria in particular, is that because of the pressure on the islamic state there, from us, from syrian forces, from even the russian air strikes and so forth, is that some of their forces are defecting to the al-qaeda affiliate al nousra and that is going to have to be the focus of attention at some point. >> rose: as a military man, how important is it for the iraqi forces supported by us and others in iraq when they are attacking fallujah and other
places as they gain ground to take and hold. >> well, you've got to hold. at the end of the day clearing and leaving is a recipe for disaster. >> rose: but that happened. >> sure, sure. sure. >> fallujah including. >> they were episodes when we were in iraq where we would clear and handoff prematurely. so again it's not just about clearing. it's about having a force that can hold. and by the way, it's beyond that. it's how do you rebuild in that reconstruction, so the iraqis have to have something that we didn't do real well in the beginning. so called phase four. what do you do when you're in charge. so as they go back into fallujah now, what will be the local governance that will administer this? provide grieveance resolution and local dispute resolution and so forth. the basic services that need to be restored. imagine the damage when this is all done even with the precision weapon re they are are using will still be enormous damage. >> i want to come back to syria. you said there are five things we should learn from the post
era spring period. >> well, the first is that ungoverned spaces in the islamic world, west africa, north africa, middle east and then central asia will be exploited by the islamic state or other extremist groups. second, the effects of these groups, the implications won't be contained. so you can't admire this problem until it goes away. you have to do something about it. third n doing something about it, u.s. leadership is absolutely imperative. it's indispensable. doesn't mean we do it alone. we should get all the coalition partners and allies and especially those from the islamic world. this is more of a fight, if you think it's a clash within a civil glairks even more than it is a clash between civilizations. >> withinned islamic worm. >> within the islamic world. this is a fight for the future of islamic world. far more muslims are being killed by muslim extremists. >> is it between the iranians and saudis and those who support shiites and. >> that's another whole
dimension. that's the sectarian dimension within the islamic world. but this is about extremists who really want to hijack in particular by the way, the sunni areas of the world. then the forth lesson is that in exercising our leadership, we have to have a comprehensive approach. there doesn't mean that we have to do everything in that comprehensive approach. but we have to do more than just drone strikes and raids by counterterrorism forces. you have to have all of the other components of a comprehensive civil military campaign. but ideally as is happening in iraq, the host nation provides the combat ground forces. the host nation does the reconciliation between the factions. the host nation provides the reconstruction, although we're going to have to provide some resources for that undoubtedly as well. and then fifth, and perhaps most importantly, i think we have to acknowledge that this is a generational struggle. we used to say this is a
marathon, not a sprint. this is an ultramarathon. and we are going to be seized with this for a long time. and that informs us, therefore, that we've got to do everything we can to be as cost-effective and as efficient and as careful, frankly, in losing our young men and women. >> rose: what's possible between now and the time that this president hands over the presidency to a new president in january of 2017? >> i think, you know, in an ideal world from the perspective of the administration, you would have retaken mosul. it will be a close-run affair. we'll see. you would have liked to have taken raqqa by that point in time as well. >> you can't rule it out. what i think we have to see is how resilient can the islamic state be when they just take loss after loss after loss after loss. you know, in the fight to baghdad, for example, when i was privileged to command the 101st airborne division, you had very stiff resistance and say the
battle for nu ja or hiller or these others and all of a sudden it just collapses. when do reach the point of collapse with the islamic state or do these guys just so per fent-- fervent that they are truly going to fight to the deaths in every case. and that remains to be seen. >> was muqtada sad err a thorn for you in iraq. >> he was a thorn for iraq. he was a thorn at various times when i was the commander in iraq. we defeed-- defeated his mirlisha in the battle of basra and sadr city and others. >> he is playing a role again? >> he is, and what is interesting is he is one of those not as actively supported by iran. he certainly goes there periodically. he spend a lot of time there when i was a the commander. hes had a nationalist perspective, rather than one that tilts towards iran. >> rose: he doesn't want to see iraq as a tool of the iranians. >> no, no. everyone realizes that iran is
going to have considerable influence. the iraqis accept this. they just don't want to be the 51st state of iran. and muqtada al sadr has a very, very nationalist perspective that paradoxically actually offsets some of the perspective of the other militias and by the way, he's got a considerable bloc in the parliament that can help this prime minister. so this is this kal identify scope of parliamentary blocs and parties that the prime minister has to navigate, first of all to stay in power, and then to get back into the parliament building and develop enough con sen tus to pursue the initiatives that he has. and oh by the way, he's got significant economic challenges because of the plummeting price of oil. and by the way, we're about to start ramadan. it has eased back up but nowhere, still half of what it was. >> by the way, ramadan starts now on the sixth of june. and it goes to about the fifth
of july. this is about, you know, the longest day, period for the year. so it's going to be a very long day during which individuals will fast. now there are exceptions for the military and the police. they can drink water certainly and eat in some cases. but this is going to be-- everything slows down in iraq during that time because people become exhausted by the afternoon, waiting for the breaking of the fast, at sunset. and but also it is a period that historically has seen higher activity by the islamic state. so we should expect an increase in their terrorist activities, they're also seeking to do anything to take the pressure--. >> in europe, certainly concerns about that, against the west. >> rose: when you said that, you said you're surprised at their ability to continue fighting at the level they are because of blows they have
taken. because of financial support, because land shrinkage and the caliphate not being as attractive a recruiting tool. >> yeah. >> recruiting numbers are down. we've always said, again, we've talked about this before. that it's important that the islamic state be shown to be a loser rather than a winner. and that's why time has always w did have consequences. we but the islamic state now is a loser. and it's losing in almost every location. it's looking for new opportunities but we've got to convince the world, if you will, certainly that which could be recruited by the islamic state. keep in mind that it's the foreign recruits that have been a lot of the canon toeder for the islamic state. >> rose: turn to-- turn to aghanistan for a second. how is that going? the taliban won. they have a new leader. that leader has now been assassinated by a drone. >> yes. >> rose: then they've selected a new leader.
>> they have. >> rose: where does that-- they don't seem to be of any frame of mind to negotiate at this time. >> no, there hasn't been the pressure on them. again, they have sanctuaries. the reason the strike is so important is that it's the first in-- within pablg stand, there have been strikes in the tribal areas of pakistan, north waz irstan in particular, but this is a strike in balu jistan and that is a significant development. but if it's not followed up, if there can't be other ways to pressure the taliban senior leaders who have this sanctuary in pakistan and the haqqani taliban who have a sanctuary to some degree, although we have targeted them over the years, there is no way of getting them to-- . >> rose: we have to get to the sanctuary in order to bring the right pressure on the taliban so they will be forced to negotiate. >> and that's very del kit ka given the-- with pakistan. so the chal neng afghanistan right now, as we have drawn down, as we have withdrawn our forces from the frot-line
fights, the afghan security forces have come under increasing pressure. and as i have advocated recently, we need to provide our close air spofort for the afghan forces in the same way that we did when they were fighting shoulder to shoulder with our forces. but which we stopped doing against the taliban. although we do it against the islamic state in al-qaeda. keeping in mind that it was the ve the sanctuary ind al-qaeda to afghanistan where the 9/11 attacks were planned. and where the initial turning of the attackers was conducted. >> rose: as a military man s there anything would you do that we are not doing at this point, either in iraq or in syria? >> well, let me talk afghanistan again. because first, i would very much extend close air support to support the afghan security forces. i expect that general nik oldson, the commander of the force, the coalition force in afghanistan will provide recommendations here in the next week or two, that undoubtedly will caution against further
drawdowns. in fact, a number of us former commanders in afghanistan, ambassadors to afghanistan have just all agreed on a letter that will recommend very strongly against doing that. >> is that going to the president or. >> this will go to the public, and so forth. but cautioning against any further drawdown. let the next president make that decision after we see how this year goes. this fighting season could be a very tough one. helleman-- hellman province which we made such significant gains, kandahar and some of these others have been under enormous pressure by the taliban and some of the districts in those provinces have been taken back by the taliban. there is some in the north that are very, very worrisome as well. and we've got to watch this, or else again you could be back in a position where afghanistan sunday enormous threat. keeping in mind again it was under the taliban, their control that al-qaeda had the effort there. with respect to the other locations, i think we have actually up gunned very
considerably the resources that we are employing in syria, in iraq, in libya. we have actually stream-lined the process of approval under the existing rules of engagement for strikes, these are all a lot of areas of progress. we have increased the intelligence surveillance, reconaissance aspects, the ability to infeuns intelligence that is almost unique to the united states in an industrial strength way that we can do that. so we see real progress. >> rose: why do you think there was a change in strategy? >> i think over time there was a recognition this we were not achieving-- we weren't where we needed to be. i actually said this on your show again one or two back. >> rose: right. >> where you know, you asked how is it going? and i said we are not where we should be. >> rose: you said if you're not winning, you're losing. >> and that as well, yup. >> rose: and today? >> i think we are starting to win, without question. i mean we're certainly making gains. and now in fact t actually allows us, and really requires
us to focus on the real center of gravity in iraq which is why this all went wrong in the first place, which is iraqi politics. keep in mind that for three and a half years after the surge, iraq did very well. and it was only when the prime minister started pursuing highly sectarian actions against the sunni arabs, who was our partner when we did reconciliation. and undid a very historic achievement to bring his country back together. and once again, tore the fabric of society and lead to what we have. >> rose: but one of the takeaways in our conversation is it is possible, possible that before this president leaves office, they could retake fallujah, mosul and raqqa. >> i don't know if i would bet on that. two out of three wouldn't be bad. and that's not inconceivable. i just wouldn't rule out raqqa, i guess, because you could see some kind of perhaps collapse at some point. when they're cut off from their
turkish supply lines, where they're encircled a bit more. so you never rule that out. but certainly would want to see, fallujah is going to go down on this president's watch. can mosul be taken down as well. and what kind of pressure can you bring on raqqa. but again, you just can't focus on this. you've got to keep the pressure on the islamic state elements in libya that became quite woreisome and troublesome. you can't let the islamic state in afghanistan develop any critical mass, keep an eye on yemen an all the rest. and by and large, there is a pretty coherent effort that is now ongoing and is starting to bear fruit. >> rose: great pleasure to you have here. thank you. >> great to be back, charlie, thanks. >> rose: general david petraeus. back in a moment, stay with us. mount everest is earth's highest mountain standing at 29,035 feet above sea level.
since the first ascent in 1953 by sir edmund hillary and tensing norgay, reaching everest's summit has been considered one of the greatest achievements in mountain earring, to achieve this task without supplement oxygen is even more remarkable. this month two american climbers adrian ballinger and cory richards attempted to do just that. together they documented their journey in realtime on snapchat under the user name everest no filter. here is a look. >> here we go. 11 mile to abc. had 400 meters. feels good. >> this is by everest, a new hair by everest. new hashtag, it's a thing. i think mine's better than his. >> another himalayan sun rise. say hi to the world.
hey, b, giving the big snapchat what's up? what's up? >> cory and i are going to skip right by 75. pin you up. into the rocks. >> 25,000 feet. i am not sure i do but i do love that view. forthly ab had to turn around a little bit earlier so it's' up to me to hold it down. that is the summit. that's the summit. that is the wind i'm chasing or running away from. >> cory, your machine, you're amazing. congratulations! >> ballinger was forced to turn back due to health concerns.
but richards finished the climb and reached the summit. joining me now, adrian ballinger and cory richards. >> it's extraordinary what you did. it really is. >> thanks. >> i mentioned that we had it up there, were you forced to turn down. >> that's right. >> an not go, within 125 feet am you have told this story over and over it was because snr. >> you know, my body temperature was dangerously cold. hi hypothermia and was slurring my words, having trouble doing basic climbing functions that i have been doing for decades. pie body was just shutting down up there. >> rose: if anybody ought to know, you ought to know. because you have climbed the summit six times. >> six times previously. but all with supplemental oxygen. and all while guiding, helping other people to reach the summit. so this was my first attempt with cory to do it without supplemental oxygen. >> rose: so tell me about the two of you, how you came together, how you decided to do this together. how ou decided to put it on snapchat? >> well, we actually met i guess
back in 2010. i was climbing the fourth highest mountain. and it is connected. >> no piece of cake there either. >> it was fun, that trip it was fast, actually. and i think that was when we first sort of started talking about this. and that's actually connected to everest. so it shares a common base camp on the south side. and we sorted of met each other, liked each other's energy, years passed, saw each other again in 2012. talked about this again. i was evacuated from everest that year. so you know, i was trying without oxygen then. and sort of met a poor end to that expedition. >> rose: why was it so important for you and you to do it without oxygen? >> there's a purity to it i just believe that rather than bringing a mountain down to our level, we should try to rise up to the level of the mountain. and that's not to say that everybody can do that. i mean genetically that's just not viable for everybody. but for people who, you know,
can do t i think we should triet. >> what i was going to say is i just love, what i have seen on everest every time i go there is this human struggle. it brings out the best in people, sometimes the worst in people. but every one up there fights so hard emotionally and physically to stand on top. and so to&attempt without oxygen was i think the ultimate expression of that for cory and myself. which genetically lucky we climb well at altitude. we're both full time climbers, to attempt it in this way was the cleanest way to try to have that experience. >> rose: more than 7,000 people have summited mount everestment how many have done it without oxygen. >> less than 200. less than 200. >> rose: so that puts you in a remarkable. >> it's about a 2%, yeah, window. so it is-- i mean honestly, running around new york city seems more taxing to me at times than climbing everest. but i mean it is a small window.
>> rose: why did you not make it on a previous, and why did you make it all other times and not make it this time. >> i mean, i think to be perfectly honest with you, in 2012, hi a different partner. it was a different partnership. i was with national geographic photographing an article then. and i just had too much pressure. and i was climbing towards 7,000 meters. and all of a sudden i started having problems breathing and so i went down. i couldn't slow my respiration. and later my doctor, she just, you know, the doctor who runs the everest er said i don't-- i don't really know how to tell you this without sounding dramatic, and i'm not sure how much you want to share with people. but as far as can i tell, you just had a panic attack. like a massive panic attack. and it was just-- it was too
much pressure. it was too much stress. and this was all coming off an experience i had in pakistan in 2010/11, the winter where we had done the first winter of-- another 8,000 meter peak. and my partners and i had gotten hit by a massive avalanche on the way down. and that, i was getting triggered. and really, leading out of that, you know, i discovered that i had pretty severe post traumatic stress disorder from that avalanche. >> rose: how did you overcome that? >> lots of therapy. but that's true. that's really-- . >> rose: i think are you doing a huge service by acknowledging this. >> well, i mean, it's a big piece of the story that nobody knows. and it's something that i think is pervasive in climbing. people don't talk about-- i mean climbing is traditionally this very manly or sort of like very stoik, you don't talk about the suffering, you just endure it and honestly, there is a lot of
trauma that goes floo this. and that, and the brain just doesn't differentiate between traumas. it says i had a near death experience. it doesn't matter if you were in combat, or in a car accident. and that's something that we don't really discuss in our sort of society. we think that trauma is sort of reserved for a combat situation. and that's just not true. and many, many more people suffer from it than we really acknowledge. >> it's the threat of death. >> it is the threlt of death. and honestly there are two. well, there is many. but the threat of death and then asphyxiation is the next most traumatic experience. so when you have the threat of death being an avalanche and that cause of death potentially being asphyxiation, you have the double, you know, it's really, yeah. >> rose: but you didn't have-- you had bad weather, tough weather. >> we had tough weather. >> rose: we saw that in a videotape. you had no avalanche, did you?
>> no avalanche. conditions were really safe on the mountain it year. >> rose: so with what was different for you, other than you felt colder and felt threatedenned, the vi possibility. >> yeah, well, you know, the big thing was supplemental oxygen versus not. all my previous siments have been with supplemental oxygenment and i always felt very within my sphere of control. that is why i was able to guide other people to the summit and feel comfortable helping them to make decisions as well as my own. this time without supplemental oxygen, it is really difficult to describe how different it is, physically the suffering is so much greater. and for me, i struggle with cold. and one of the things oxygen gives us is it opens up our blood stream t gives us the oxygen we need to stay warm. >> rose: ah. >> so i started the summit day too cold. we spent a few hours at 8,300
meters, 27,000 feet. and i was just shivering in a tent. >> rose: 27,000 feet. >> we shouldn't even be up there at all. and we stopped there for a few hours to brew up water and to try to eat and things like that. and i was cold and shivering that whole time. and then we started climbing at 10 mm to climb three the night. and that process of cold just kept getting more and more serious for me. >> rose: was there a moment you said no more. >> there was. you know, so i went, think think about fiech hours. and during that time cory was moving a bit faster than me. and so he started moving away from me on the mountain. and our expedition doctor on base camp was on a radio us to. and i went a few hours without really communicating very well. and these guys started to ask questions like what's going on. you're always on the radio. you love to talk. what is wrong. and that's when i started to identify as well that i didn't feel how i needed to feel. >> rose: so were they encouraging you not to go forward or leaving it up to you
totally? >> monday characters our expedition doctor started suggesting i turn around probably three to four hours in. i went a whole knotter hour to the point where i was just shivering and no longer able to really work with the -- >> rose: was it a hard decision or do you simply say i'm a young man, can i do this again. >> at the time it wasn't a hard decision at all. it was very clear i goten to the point where i was going to become a fatality up there if i didn't turnout. >> rose: if you didn't turn around you were going to die and you knew that. >> yes, i felt that very clearly. >> rose: did you worry that if you continued you might, in fact, impede his success? is. >> i would love to say that was front and center of my mind but that wasn't at the time. even though there is a reality to that decision, my turning around while i could still rescue under my own power, helped, you know, let cory go with a clear conscience to the top. but at the time, it was just black and white to me that if i continue, i will not come back off this mountain and i need to go down.
>> rose: just tell us, when you reached the top. i'm avoiding asking the question what you do do you feel but what was the moment for snu. >> you know, it's an interesting-- getting to the top of these peaks, i think, people expect revelation, they expect some sorlt of relieve, some sort of a ha moment seeing god, and yeah, you see god in the landscape and but you don't-- at least i have never had that sort of opening moment. i get there, and to be perfectly honestk i'm horrified because i am further out at that point than i'm ever going to get. and especially on everest, you're as far out as you can get, especially without oxygen. and so to me-- . >> rose: scared to death. >> i'm horrified. at that moment it is, okay, i want to take some really quick picture, some bad blurry self-ies and i want to get out
of here as fast as can i. >> rose: an live with the memory. >> and live with the memory. and i think that's also-- you know, i'm having a little bit of a hard time coming to terms with what has trans-- transpired. because it-- because i took no time to ingest it. so the idea that i was actually there, still to me occurs almost as a little bit of a dream sequence, you know. i haven't-- i haven't let that sink in. >> rose: is it hard for you to sort of think through that i did it. >> yes, i have not accepted that in anyway, shape or form. and quite frankly, i'm not sure that i ever will because it was so quick. >> rose: it is quick for most people, isn't it? reasonably quick. >> it's resonably quick. >> have i spent as little as three minutes on the summit and as long as over an hour. >> rose: but with oxygen. >> with oxygen, so you can sit and sort of take it all in, yeah. >> rose: you started as friends, you started as fellow
climbers, you started with a mission. you ended as brothers s that too much to say? >> i wouldn't say that's too much. i believe that that is true. that's what happens when you-- . >> rose: when you face death together, when you face opportunity together. >> the funny thing is, we are not only facing death in the intints but it is also the bore dom of it. st life, right t is a micros could am of life. we spent two months on the mountain and a lot of it was not that exciting. but those moments of intenseness combined with just the day to day grind of making an expedition like this work and yeah, i mean i think it's just incredible how we worked together on the mountain. >> rose: what kind of feedback were you getting? >> from each other. >> rose: from us and people talking to you. >> that was part of the beauty of snapchat. we got literally hundreds of comments a day, videos, photos, people saying they were showing it to their classrooms, teachers, families saying they woke up every morning to breakfast with our snapchats. really, the feedback was such a
positive energy sowrsz for us as we climb. >> rose: so what is next? >> that is the big question. summer. >> rose: food. >> i need to recover some, food, sun, you know, time at home with friends and loved ones. but we're talking about heading back to the himalaya this autumn for another peak, another climb. >> rose: in autumn. >> yeah. only three months away. >> rose: september, october, nof. >> september. >> yeah, yeah. >> rose: will it be different this way, not in terms of whether you make it or not, but in terms of. >> i hope it's different. >> rose: i'm not asking that but in terms of how you approach t how you train, how you do anything? or do you just train always the same way and the surprise element is what the weather is going to be like and will you meet an avalanche? >> i mean i think i hopefully we don't meet another avalanche. but i think this fall we might try to do it a little bit differently in terms of how fast we do it. and that would change our training. >> rose: faster or slower.
>> faster. >> rose. >> yeah. >> rose: as i leave you, we did a morning program together, cbs this morning. and you guys because of everest hair. >> we got haircuts today. >> rose: brought me a little something and we leave you from cbs this morning, this morning. thank you guys. >> thanks so much for having us. >> thank you so much. >> rose: great seeing you. thank you for joining us. see you next time. >> this is hair by everest wig. i think you're going to. >> you wanted to be part of the team. you definitely-- there you go. you look like adrian. >> every morning. >> rose: for more about this program and earlier episodes visit us online at pbs.org and charlie rose. captioning sponsored by rose communications
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