tv Charlie Rose PBS June 15, 2016 12:00am-1:01am PDT
>> rose: welcome to the program. we begin this evening with continuing coverage of the aftermath of the tragedy in orlando, and we start with ben rhodes from the president's staff at the white house. >> in the point the president felt compelled to make today is if we are engaging in policies or rhetoric that stigmatizes the entire musli-american community, that blames an entire faith for this terrible act of violence, that suggests in any way we are at war with islam, we are going to make that job much harder because essentially i.s.i.l depends on a narrative of a war between the united states and islam to recruit, it depends on individuals being disaffected in their community, in the united states to prey upon them through the internet and social media, so he felt it was necessary to national security to make clear
that we have to reject that type of approach and take the approach that sees muslim-americans and muslims around the world as our partner. >> rose: also brooke baldwin and mary ellen o'toole, a former f.b.i. profire. >> in a case like this, a mission-oriented shooting, the shooter will go out ahead of time, check out the venue, drive by, see when it's the most crowded, who comes, who goes, where are the security officers. but what we are hearing now is his involvement in meeting men who frequented the club and going to the club and having conversations and having the app to meet people, that's not part of surveillance, so that's not part of knowing when people are coming and going and developing intelligence. so that does suggest a personal involvement in a lifestyle that he suggests and his father suggests that he hates and, so, it does present the question,
was he dealing with his own ambivalence towards possibly having homosexual thoughts or desires and, yet, at the same time hating that lifestyle. i think that has to be considered and was that enough to just fuel the hatred even more. >> rose: we continue this evening with george c. wolfe and savion glover and the broadway production "shuffle along." >> it was the first time a women's chores dance and cinco pays, i.e. jazz dance, so if you think it's i'm wild about harry versus give our regards to broadway which is square, so it changed the expression and was a crucial link. so when we talk about show boat being the first musical where there is serious subject matter and westside story and oklahoma, "shuffle along" needs to be added to that conversation. the aftermath of older older and
musical on broadway when we continue. >> rose: funding for "charlie rose" has been provided by the following: >> and by bloomberg, a provider of multimedia news and information services worldwide. captioning sponsored by rose communications from our studios in new york city, this is charlie rose. >> rose: we begin this evening with our continuing coverage of the orlando attack. 49 people were shot dead when omar mateen opened fire the pulse dance club in orlando saturday night. he was shot and killed himself. new information continues to unfold. it has been reported mateen frequented the club in years past and suspicion the gunman's second wife was aware of his
plans. president obama spoke earlier today at the u.s. treasury. he called for better gun control and denounced a muslim ban proposed by donald trump. >> so far we've taken out more than 120 top i.s.i.l leaders and commanders, and our message is clear, if you target america and our allies, you will not be safe you will never be safe. iraqi forces surrounded fallujah and begun to move into the city. mean while in the north, iraqi forces continue to push up the tigris river valley making gains around makmor and tightening the noose around mosul. mosul lost half of the populated territory it once controlled in iraq and will lose more. i.s.i.l continues to lose ground in syria as well. assisted by our special operations forces, a coalition of local forces is now pressuring the key town of
manvich which means the noose is tightening around raqqa as well. our coalition continues to be on offense. i.s.i.l is on defense and it's now been a full year since i.s.i.l has been able to mount major successful offensive operation in either syria or iraq. here at home, if we really want to help law enforcement protect americans from home-grown extremists, the kind of tragedies that occurred at san bernardino and that now have occurred in orlando, there is a meaningful way to do that. we have to make it harder for people who want to kill americans to get their hands on weapons of war that let them kill dozens of innocents. it is absolutely true, we cannot prevent every tragedy, but we
know that consistent with the second amendment there are common sense steps that could reduce gun violence and could reduce the lethallality of somebody who intends to do other people harm. we should give atf the resources they need to enforce the gun laws we already have. people with possibly ties to terrorism who aren't allowed on a plane shouldn't be allowed to buy a gun. gun. enough talking about being tough on terrorism. actually be tough on terrorism and stop making it easy as possible for terrorists to buy assault weapons. reinstate the assault weapons ban. make it harder for terrorists to use these weapons to kill us. otherwise, despite extraordinary
efforts across our government by local law enforcement, by our intelligence agencies, by our military, despite all the sacrifices that folks make, these kinds of events are going to keep on happening. and the weapons are only going to get more powerful. and let me make a final point. for a while now, the main contribution of some of my friends on the other side of the aisle have made in the fight against i.s.i.l is to criticize this administration and me for not using the phrase "radical islam." that's the key, they tell us. we can't be i.s.i.l unless we call them radical islamists. what exactly would using this label accomplish? what exactly would it change?
would it make i.s.i.l less committed to trying to kill americans? would it bring in or allies? is there a military strategy that is served by this? the answer is none of the above. calling a threat by a different name does not make it go away. this is a political distraction. since before i was president, i have been clear about how extremists groups have perverted islam to justify terrorism. as president, i have repeatedly called on our muslim friends and allies at home and around the world to work with us to reject this twisted interpretation of one of the world's great
religions. where does this stop? the orlando killer, one of the san bernardino killers, the fort hood killer, they were all u.s. citizens. are we going to start treating all muslim-americans differently? are we going to start subjecting them to special surveillance? are we going to start discriminating against them because of their faith? we've heard these suggestions during the course of this campaign. do republican officials actually agree with this? this is a country founded on basic freedoms, including freedom of religion. we don't have religious tests
here. our founders, our constitution, our bill of rights are clear about that. and if we ever abandon those values, we would not only make it a lot easier to radicalize people here and around the world, but we would have betrayed the very things we are trying to protect. the pluralism and the openness, our rule of law, our civil liberties, the very things that make this country great, the very things that make us exceptional, and then the terrorists would have won. we cannot let that happen. i will not let that happen. >> rose: joining me now from washington is ben rhodes, he is the deputy national security advisor for strategic communication for the president. that hardly defines what he does there at the white house, so i'm pleased to have him on this program again. ben, let me begin with this
question -- take us, if you can, inside the mind of the president as he is trying to react to make sense to do what a president is supposed to do at a moment like this, help the nation comprehend and, at the same time, show a pathway to the future. >> well, good to be with you, charlie. first of all, i think his principal responsibility after a tragedy like this is to make clear on behalf of the nation how much our thoughts and prayers are with the loved ones who were killed in orlando and with those surviving and trying to recover in the hospital down in orlando. that's something he's had to do all too many times as president, charlie, but that's a critical function of what he does in the aftermath of these events. second, i think he has to put it in the context of how are we going to respond to get to the bottom of this, how are we going to pursue an investigation to understand what the motives of the killer were and as far as this may have connection to
extremism, he pledged allegiance to i.s.i.l, how will we pursue a strategy that both defeats i.s.i.l overseas but uh also tries to combat an ideology that could prey upon a deeply disturbed individual like this and lead them to do something as tragic as what we saw in orlando. >> rose: having said that, tell me what he thought the clear mandate to do in his speech today, what he thought he had to do at that moment in that speech. >> charlie, you have to remember, if we're talking about self-radicalized individuals, if we're talking about people who take it upon themselves not necessarily being directed by foreign terrorist organizations -- we'll certainly look for that but thus far there is no indication -- if you're talking about people who are radicalized, it is a battle of ideologies. if we are engaging in policies or rhetoric that stigmatizes the entire muslim-americans community, that blames an entire faith for this act of violence,
that suggests we are at war with islam, we'll make that job harder because i.s.i.l depends on a narrative of a war between the united states and islam to recruit, it depends on individuals being dills affected within their communities, within the united states to prey upon them through the internet and the use of social media. so he felt it was essential to our national security that we continue to make sure that we have to reject that type of approach and we have to take an approach that sees muslim-americans and muslims around the world as our partner in this fight. >> rose: absolutely but at the same time he does believe there is something happening called fundamental radical islamic terrorism, yes? >> as he said today, charlie, we believe there is a perversion of islam from groups like i.s.i.l so they take islam and pervert it to their twisted ideology to justify the slaughter of innocents including muslims.
we'll be more effective at combating that if we don't describe them as a religious organization. they're a terrorist organization. >> rose: so, therefore, how does the president respond to what donald trump said today and what does he think of trump's contribution to this moment? >> well, i think, charlie, the key point here is that we've had these debates about labels for some time, and we have been clear that we did not want to define i.s.i.l or al quaida or any other extremist group as speaking for islam in any way, and we've avoid that terminology. the problem is, when you see that terminology taken to its logical end, if this is defined as a conflict that is inherently about religion, that leads to policies like not allowing muslims to enter the united states, or policies of more excessive surveillance and denial of civil riebt -- civil
liberties to muslim-americans. if we make decisions because of fear, we'll make the wrong decisions and do harm to our national fabric and national security. >> rose: but you seem to be saying that the president believes that if, in fact you use language like "radical islamic terrorism," you are inevitably tarring all muslims and that is exactly what donald trump is doing and what his response to this tragedy has been. >> yeah, well, i'd say two things, charlie -- first of all, just saying radical islam is not going to defeat i.s.i.l. this notion that the first thing we have to do to defeat a terrorist group is call it radical islam, the sun will come up, i.s.i.l will be there, they won't lay down weapons because we use a different phrase. the second thing, how with redefining an enemy? when we're talking about who we're at war with, we believe we should define that as a war
against terrorist networks, against i.s.i.l, against al quaida, not as war against a certain type of religious terminology because that has the potential to bean÷ interpreted d utilize bid groups like i.s.i.l as a means of saying we are indeed at war with islam and they use that as a means of recruitment. so we avoid that terminology and make it clear that there are terrorist that pervert islam but don't speak for islam. >> rose: is the administration saying for all of you who talk about being tough on terrorism, there is nothing more that we can do, we're doing everything we can and, in fact, we're ratcheting up that fight against terrorism at this moment? >> well, yes. i mean, we have demonstrated for seven and a half years, the president has, that we will go after al quaida and i.s.i.l. we've taken back half of i.s.i.l's terrorist in iraq, we're taking away territory in
syria and taking away leadership and financing sources. we can roll back the threat overseas. the difficult challenge is what do you do when there is one individual who is willing to take it upon himself to kill people? that is harder to stop than a plot where individuals are communicating. the president said, number one, deny them worst weapons. if he walked into that club and didn't have the type of automatic weapon he had you would not necessarily have as a terrible tragedy. >> rose: the president is going to renew his efforts to deal with assault weapons? >> yes, he thinks there should be a ban on those -- >> rose: we know he thinks that. what will he do that he hasn't done in the past because he believes passionately about that after newtown and other incidents, what is he going to
do? >> we need congress and congress has been resistant. we continue to review what we can do through executive action but for the bigger changes we need congress. if you cannot get on a plane because you're not on a watch -f you're on a watch list, you shouldn't be able to buy a gun if you're on a watch list. so we hope congress in the aftermath of this and faced with the complex challenge of individuals who want to take this into their own hands and pursue these attacks that congress will take steps on common sense gun safety laws. secondly, how do we engage in the struggle ideologically? the biggest asset we have is america is a pleurallistic country and muslims do succeed here. that will help us push back on people who wrant to radicalize individuals here. >> rose: and in fact are engaged in the fight against i.s.i.s. and other terrorist organizations who happen to be inspired by sort of a misreading
of islamic doctrine. >> that's right. we have muslim-americans serving in our armed forces, who speak out against this activity, we have muslim-americans who helped us unvalve terrorist plots here in the united states. this is essential to this fight, charlie. and this gets back to the terminology. if you ask our close allies overseas you talk to king abdullah of jordan, to musli-american leaders in the united states, they say it is counterproductive to define this war in religious terms. that's the terrain the terrorist want to fight the battle. we need partners in this effort and take pride in what makes america a great country which is our pleurallism, commitment to religious freedom and free speech. that will allow us to push back against efforts to radicalize disaffected individuals. >> rose: tell me what you know about that's correct somebody who is likely to be individually radicalized who is a "homegrown
terrorist." >> well, you know, i think one of the things that we've seen, certainly, is that there have been patterns where individuals start consuming a significant amount of online content and it's often propaganda and often very visceral propaganda and that starts to affect their behavior. sometimes they become withdrawn from certain types of activities they would engage in in the past. sometimes they get into arguments they didn't previously get into with colleagues and friends. then ultimately, sometimes they retreat into themselves and start making different associations with people. and so, you know, what you see is an individual essentially going through a process of withdrawing from their previous identity and preparing themselves to do something terrible. now, that can take a long time or it can happen more rapidly. the difficult thing is a lot of this now happens online. so that makes it even more important that people are
vigilant in understanding how to see that happening in their community because ultimately that -- there is no terrorist plot that's disrupted without some degree of cooperation from within the community, if it's not the type of plot that we can get through our normal intelligence gathering. >> rose: finally take me through what the president is now prepared to do. >> well, again, beyond showing that solidarity in the community and with the families, i think we want to, on a broader national security perspective, continue to prosecute this effort against i.s.i.l so that in the remaining time in his administration we are taking back as much territory from him as we can and leaving an architecture in place that can complete the job of destroying i.s.i.l. but also how are we looking at the issues of where the threat is migrating? eth migrating from a circumstancey you have plots directed and carefully choreographed from overseas to this effort of radicalization,
and how can we push back on that ideology? voices to push back against the ideology? how can we pulled and sustain partnerships here in the united states and around the world to do that? how can we look at, again as i mentioned earlier, things like our gun laws that can at the very least make it more difficult for someone to commit a terrible act of violence like this. so we will be zeroing in continually on this challenge, we already have been, but orlando only elevates the necessity of focusing on the lone wolf, homegrown extremist challenge which is where the terrorist threat has been heading now for some time. >> rose: still there is baghdadi, the leader of i.s.i.s., i.s.i.l as the government calls it. what do we know about him there? has he been injured in an air attack? do we think he's in syria or do we think he's in iraq? do we think he has been grievously wounded and,
therefore, cannot command i.s.i.l anymore? >> well, i know that there are many different reports out there, but we've seen reports in the past from other sources about what may or may not have happened to baghdadi. we do not have any independent information about whether or not he has been injured in any type of strike. what we will say is that we have made taking out the leadership of i.s.i.l which would obviously include baghdadi a priority and we have been able to take out a number of i.s.i.l leaders, a significant number of i.s.i.l leaders in months because we have been able to get better intelligence over the course of this year and a half we have been engaged in the military campaign. the fact is even though they have characteristics of insurgency, they have a core leadership that is very important to their operations, so you can make a dent in their ability both to direct their efforts in iraq and syria and around the world by focusing on leadership, so we'll continue to do that. >> rose: ben rhodes, thank you so much for joining us.
>> thanks, charlie. >> rose: ben rhodes from washington. we'll be right back. stay with us. >> rose: joining me from orlando is brooke baldwin, she will be with us in just a minute. she is the anchor of cnn news room. with us now from washington, mary ellen o'toole, the program director of the george mason university of forensic science department and a former f.b.i. profiler. i am pleased to have her on this program. let me begin with this, we're learning more and more about this case and the gunman. give me a sense of how he fits other profiles of people who have committed this kind of mass murder and how he is different. >> well, you're right. he's similar in some ways and then as the investigation unfolds, he's different in other ways, and some of the similar features are that this is a mission-oriented shooter, and what that means is that he was on a mission that morning to kill as many people as he could, and there was a tremendous amount of planning that he would have had to put into this
murder, and that planning likely went back days, weeks, months or even years, but certainly the thinking about it had to pre-exist the planning. what i mean by that is, when you go into a place crowded with many people and your intention is to kill them, your outlook on these victims is that they are not human beings, that they have been dehumanized. this was very callous, extremely callous, and the shooter showed no remorse or emotion for these victims, which are personality traits which pre-existed the crime, and you see these in other shootings that are considered mission-oriented shootings. >> rose: okay. so was his mission simply to kill people because he'd been inspired by i.s.i.l? or was his mission to be inspired by i.s.i.l and combined
with whatever else was within his own makeup and kill people from the lesbian, gay, transgender community? >> it could actually be both, but i think, as the investigation unfolds, what we're going to see is an individual whose aspirations of and by i.s.i.s. are really pretty much skin deep, that he cherry-picked what he wanted to learn or know about yiersz i.s.. because it appears he had an interest in other political organizations and terrorist organizations that were really opposed to i.s.i.s. and their politics and ideology, which suggests someone who was maybe more or less shopping around for the right terrorist group that he could associate with, and that could be because he wanted to associate with a group that would give him a sense of power and dominance and control and
give him a sense of being feared by other people. i think as the investigation unfolds, that's what we will see. >> rose: is it true in most cases that when this kind of thing happens, you're looking at someone who is enormously unhappy with their life, blamed other people and wanted to do something to show that they were significant? >> that is a part of it, and then add on to that someone who has, over time, been able to develop this all-encompassing hatred towards people, towards groups in the world, has a fascination with violence, has demonstrated violence in the past inappropriately, is an injustice collector -- blames everybody for their problems -- loses jobs, loses relationships, but violence is their pathway to regain some control, and then, of course, there is the pink elephant in the room which is
the access to weapons of mass destruction because none of this, despite all the patterns of behavior that preexisted sunday morning, none of this would have happened had there not been access to the weapons of mass destruction. >> rose: we'll talk about that more. brooke baldwin from cnn joins me. brooke, what are you learning today about the gunman in this story and for you as a reporter there in orlando? >> charlie, we've learned a lot today. first and foremost, cnn confirmed the shooter actually took time to donate blood just last month. so think about that for a second, the fact you have all of these casualties and victims ssibility his blood is beingm used. that's number one. number two, we're learning more about his actions in previous weeks. we know that he apparently, according to investigators close to this case, had been surveilling two different locations, one being nearby
disney springs, it's a huge resort, full of kids and rides and shops on the disney world property, but timing-wise, they point out it was during the gay themed celebration during the week. that was number one. number two, we found out he visited this particular pulse nightclub multiple times. so there is that. he was apparently active on some of these gay social media hookup apps. and the other question is the wife. we heard from the shooter's father, he was asked what sort of involvement she would have had. investigators are talking to her. she apparently is being cooperative. f.b.i. i talked to said number one thought is how would the family have missed, when you think about the high-powered rifles he was using, the ammo he purchased in recent weeks, would she not have known, charlie. >> rose: so the assumption is she had to know? >> we can never assume, but an
f.b.i. individual i talked to today said he would have many, many questions for her, as we talked about in the week i covered the boston bombings a lot of questions about the tsarnaev brothers living in the small apartment in cambridge, massachusetts, what did the family know there, take that and those questions are being asked of the wife and if she knew and that would involve her and she would be complicit. >> rose: the wife told the f.b.i. she had driven him to the site? >> we have not confirmed that at cnn. it's a report i've heard as well. we've heard a number of reports. i don't want to confirm anything i don't know wholeheartedly, so i don't know that. >> rose: there is this, an f.b.i. official told the "new york times" there was an indication she was with him in certain parts of the process and were sorting through it. that comes from the "new york times." we don't know what's true or not. >> we know she had gone. >> rose: that she had gone? forgive me quickly.
in the end of april, she accompanied him to the disney property. >> rose: what are we question -t are we beginning to know who he was with respect to his sexuality, with respect to his feelings about the lgbt community? >> right. one would ask why would you want to go to the extent -- he was friending multiple gay nightclub owners on facebook. obviously, he wanted some sort of access. the fact he visited this particular nightclub multiple times. the fact, charlie, he was on some of these dating web sites, one would wonder. so this was a question put to his own father who described the hatred this man felt when he saw two gay men kissing in miami a month ago, the father with was asked was your son gay? keep in mind the culture perspective of a father from afghanistan, keep in mind the
culture sense toifts homosexuality and combined with how he felt. were there suppressed feelings? if he couldn't join the community, kill them? the other being it could be pure hate. i mean, he massacred 49 people. >> rose: i want to read a quote from paul gil, lecturer at university college in london, studies terrorism. said to the "new york times," "how individuals get to this point is really complex, and if we try to boil ut down to one factor, we're going to miss a lot of that complexity, and it's in that complexity that we're going to really understand what happened." help us understand the complexity of this man. >> well, let me give you an example, and that statement is completely accurate. in a case like this, a mission-oriented shooting, the shooter will go out ahead of time, check out the venue, drive by, see when it's the most crowded, who comes, who goes, where are the security officers,
but what we're hearing now is his involvemented in meeting men who frequented the club and going to the club and having conversations and having the app to meet people, that's not part of surveillance, so that's not part of knowing when people are coming and going and developing intelligence. so that does suggest a personal involvement in a lifestyle that he suggests and his father suggests that he hates. so it does present the question, was he dealing with his own ambivalence towards possibly having homosexual thoughts or desires and yet, at the same time, hating that lifestyle. i think that has to be considered, and was that enough to fuel the hatred even more because, at that scene, there is no question that he was cool, calm and collected for three hours during the course of time
which he was killing so many people. we have not seen a mass shooting of this length since charles whitman back in 1966 who shot and killed for 90 minutes. >> rose: right. so i think that is important to dig down into the complexities of what was going on in his life and what was motivating him. it's not a simple, it was terrorism or a hatred of gays or the lgbt lifestyle, it's for complicated than that. >> rose: brooke, we come back to journalism's oldest question, why, why did he do it, and i assume that's part of the pursuit going on in orlando now, not only by the f.b.i. but every reporter that you know. >> absolutely. i mean, i have been to newtown, ifn to virginia tech. you know, i held a town hall museum in washington and talked to 40 gun survivors and we're all wondering why, to mary ellen's point about casing out this club. i talked to investigators who
say think about when he did this. it was after the last call for alcohol. it was sort of that final point when it was a max capacity in the club. so he knew what time to go in, he also knew where the bathroom door was to hold the hostages, he was familiar with that. let me leave you with this as well. quickly i talked to a source at the orlando police department who told me think about the medical examiner's office, all the bodies they received, and he said they faced quite a challenge in this initial few hours because of all the cell phones going off, not of the m.e.s, but that of the bodies, phones in pockets, incessant ringing from loved ones who wanted to find their sons, daughters, sisters, brothers, and they were there. >> rose: part of the pain is they did not know what happened to those they loved at that time. brooke, thank you. mary ellen, thank you. >> thank you. you're welcome. thank you. >> rose: we'll be right back.
stay with us. >> rose: in 1921, a musical called "shuffle along" premiered on broadway. after a difficult start, it became one of the first hit shows starring, written and directed by african-americans. fast forward to 2016, and a similar success has emerged called "shuffle along," or the making of the musical sensation of 1921 and all that followed, that long title, this challenges phased by the original. nominated for ten tony awards. ben brantley in the "new york times" called it defiantly fresh, and here's a look. (singing) ♪ ♪
>> rose: and joining me is the writer and director george c. wolfe and choreographer savion glover. i am pleased to have them back at this table. the last time they were here, they were separate. glad to have you back. >> glad to see you. >> rose: how did you get together? >> we hadn't worked together for a while and i started to explore "shuffle along" and i felt i needed him to share the vision. where are you, savion, come to me!
so it seemed like the perfect thing for us to work together on because there were so many innovations "shuffle along" had in 1921. it was the first jazz score, the first time a women's cho russ danced as opposed to being ornamental and decorative, and the music and the dance felt very, very innovative, except for a lot of innovations of 1921 don't apply in 2016, so i wanted to figure out a way to make it feel fresh and vibrant and innovative for new eyes and, so, that seemed to be -- >> rose: do most people know about "shuffle along"? >> no one knows anything about it. >> rose: i feel so stupid. no, it opened up on broadway in 1921 in may. it ended up making $9 million which is a ridiculous amount. >> rose: 1921? 191921. it brought cinco pays, changed jazz florence mills was the
first international american star that grew forth from it. it changed the face of broadway, and i just, over time, kept on doing this research and saw a pictorial history of broadway that went from the 1890s till 1957, and it had for the season of 1921 ten pages of goafts and then, at -- of photographs and it said and also that season, "shuffle along." how could something so monumental and successful, john gene nathan wrote brilliently about it, all these people loved it, how did it end up a footnote? >> rose: what's the answer to that? >> well, the answer is a couple of things. i think those who live tell the story of those who don't. so various people died off and when blake came ahonk, he mentioned it. also there was a revival in 1933 and one in 1952 and neither were very good so i think that
contributed to burying it. >> rose: what makes it so great today in 2016? >> what makes it great, i think, are the people involved. >> rose: yeah. the wonderful cast. george. the music. waters. >> rose: how different is it from 1921. >> we're not telling the original story of "shuffle along" itself. george allowed us to become more familiar with the players and actors involved in the show. we touched on the show a little bit but it's mainly my opinion, about the actors and who evolves in the show and their contributions. the dance, again thanks to george, the dance is a part of the story. use tap dancing to tell the story and promote everything that's going on, so it's different in that way. >> rose: and your role? my role is or was to
choreograph the show, which i did, thanks to george, and you know, like you said, there were very little to pull from, very little visuals from the show. so the research that we did, i grew up as a tap dancer just always watching old footage anyway, but george introduced even new footage, footages that i hadn't seen or wasn't aware of, and it was just a matter of, for me, pulling some of these visuals and just lending my energy towards it. so it was a little -- you know, a little switch, but we tried to maintain the style and efforts of the 192 is. >> rose: how much choreography have you done for other people other than your own dance? >> not much. every now and then i had my dance productions going on and toying around, but this is my first time choreographing how many people, 24? >> 25.
people in the cast, this is my first approach. >> rose: you have a lot of confidence in him. >> exactly, and it's not all tap choreography. savion had issues because he thought at one point he wanted to be in the show. i said, no, you have to corps choreograph it. >> rose: how do we solve the problem, he wants to be in the show. >> he wanted to be in the show. i thought i was going to be in the show. think about, we met a couple of times. it was maybe the third or fourth meeting i was, like, he's serious! i'm not going to be in the show! (laughter) >> rose: you wanted to say, george, don't you know what i can do? >> i accepted the challenge. reality set in and -- >> after a while he accepted the challenge. (laughter) >> rose: why didn't you want him in the show? >> because it was so damn big. it's a big, monstrous show. >> rose: you needed a good
choreographer. >> i needed a collaborator with me all the time. i didn't need him to be disappearing into the show. starting in the end of june, july, he will be disappearing into the show now that the show is up. >> rose: what's the magic of the show. >> what's the magic of the show? >> rose: yeah. it received a tony nomination. >> brilliant cast. >> rose: top of broadway. yeah, and i said hey, kids, let's hang out. >> rose: right. i think the first act celebrates the magic and wonder of greativity, and then act two is really about the consequences of success and the consequences of history, and one of the final numbers, at one point, karl, a noted thinker and critic of the time, he actively burden shuffle shuferl, and there is a moment where act one is about the joy of creation, and act two becomes very much so about this dynamic that i think affects all of us.
will we be remembered for the best of what we did, because the people of "shuffle along" were not remembered. they weren't remembered by you or by me or by anybody except through the process of unearthing them we celebrate them. but they were lost. they were lost to history. so many people get lost to history who do extraordinary things, and it was just my attempt to, maybe i'm praying to the gods of remembrance if i remember somebody, when i'm gone they will remember me. >> rose: me, too, george. praying for us all, exactly. so come see "shuffle along" and you will be healed of your fear of not being remembered. >> reporter: if you don't come, forget it. >> you're lost. who were you? no more. >> rose: how do you want to be remembered, you? >> personally? >> rose: yes, sir. i want to be remembered as someone who told stories that empowered people. >> rose: who walked out of the theater feeling empowered. >> so that, therefore, they could face another day doing the
best, working to become the best version of themselves. >> rose: you're too young to think about being remembered, but my guest -- (laughter) you never know. >> no. >> rose: my guess is that you're a dancer. >> i'm a tap dancer. >> rose: you're a tap dancer. yes, i am. >> rose: a proud tap dancer, and if they remember you as good as you are as a tap dancer, that will be just fine? >> that will be just fine. i also want to be remembered as one of the hippest cats ever. >> rose: a cool man. yeah. nice working with ya. (laughter) how do you want to be remembered? >> rose: a cool man. exactly! (laughter) >> all the accolades mean nothing. >> rose: you want to make a difference. >> yeah, we just want to leave a mark, you know. he was a tap dancer, a human being, just as a person, you know. >> rose: what was complex about making this work? what was difficult about it? >> you know, it's hard to answer
that question because i don't know. >> rose: was it difficult? it was difficult, but i don't know there was one thing. it was difficult but it was so joyous. there was nothing really -- again, i accepted every challenge. >> rose: but it's a convergence of many things. >> absolutely. yeah. iwhat was difficult? >> i think the most challenging thing about creating a musical is making sure that the buoyancy maintains, no matter what. that is the hardest thing in the world. even when you have something like westside story or sweeny todd, the energy of buoyancy has to pisht through, all the way to the curtain. so maintaining the buoyancy as we explore the relationships in the storytelling as we get closer and closer to time of
maintaining -- like there is a story that youtub eubie blake ts that george gershwin lifted notes from i got rhythm from a pit player william graham who was a classical composer in "shuffle along." i'm not saying he did it but eubie blake said it, so it became an interesting thing. so become graham still, it becomes a tap dance that savion glover choreographed. gilbert said "shuffle along" was filled with joyous rage and this number becomes a manifestation of that. >> rose: this is from chris jones writing in the chicago tribune. "in many ways it engages in a conversation with "hamilton" by offering up a reminder of how
profitable enterprise invariably relies on previous sacrifices from equal talents who did not enjoy the good fortune to be born or be working on broadway in our current moment of diverse opportunity." >> that's an extraordinary at the same time. when i first met with audra mcdonald and asked her to join the show, i said you and i have come along at this time where we have extraordinary options. these people had known so they had to carve out one, and their passion and joy and love and their defiance is the weapons they used to carve out this space and they created something that was so extraordinary and something that was celebrated and then it went away. the show was so popular at the time that fanny brice went to the producers and begged them to have a wednesday midnight sew so that everybody else on broadway could come see it. >> rose: did they?
they did it and every night al jolson bought 300 tickets and came to see the show. it was a cultural phenomenon. it also started the whole slumming phenomenon of county doing uptown and created a cultural curio curiosity about t harlem was. it was the first time uptown and downtown creatively, musically, culturally, intellectually engaged in a conversation and that needed to be celebrated and that's why we want to celebrate the show. >> rose: is this something when you, george, approach or you just dived into and said, man, i've got to find out everything and learn everything. >> i'm excited about the work. >> rose: are you excited about the opportunity to cor choreogrh another time with another place or person or with george in some other -- >> oh, yeah, i'm excited about doing choreography, period, continuing to allow the dance to progress, and we can tell the
stories through tap dance and maintain the legacies, the stories of some of the greatest men who have ever contributed to the dance. >> rose: what's so great about him as you know much better than i do? he took tap and took it to a new place. >> exactly, but with savion, one of the things about him is savion is a very brilliant, generous teacher, and a lot of teams people who are exceptional at what they do are impossible to be around when they're passing on that information, they're intolerant of people who are not existing at their level. and that's one of the things that i think is -- because in this show, you have people, you know, who are doing brilliant work who are not known as dancers, and they're doing brilliant work simply because of the grace of how he teaches. so that, i think, is really thrilling. also one of the things which i've always said about savion
about his work as a choreographer is savion was taught by older tap dancers who were taught by older tap dancers. so when you talk about something said in 1921, i call him a living repository of rhythm. >> rose: he likes that. yeah, give me my $20 for saying that. so when he's conjuring a period dance, it's not steal or art -- stierl artificial or fake. it has the energy of something new when it was first done. >> rose: when it was first done did it kill stereotypes of black performers and actors. >> it killed while perpetuating them at the same time, two performers of the show became black faced performers touring on the keith alby circuit and
everybody else in the company is in their natural skin performing black face. so it became likely fascinating. because the "shuffle along" success and it was set in a southern town, you will find for a very long period of time very few shows which featured african-american stories that weren't set in the south. >> rose: so did it do a lot for african-americans. >> one of the main things it did, it was a first time on a legitimate commercial stage that there was a love song that was expressed between a black man and a black woman. >> rose: first time on the musical stage -- >> ever. >> rose: 1921. 1921. and the performers were terrified that rioting or they might be arrested. so the first time they sang the love song, the two performers were on stage but the creators were at the stage door ready to
run in case something violent happened. and i head various accounts of people traveling across country not just to see the show because it was successful but to see a love song. it's called "love will find a way" that comes straight out any operetta, nothing big about it, but people were transformed by it. >> rose: the question is obvious and it's a stupid question, but was it both a combination of how good it was and what it was doing to open new doors and show black talent, how good they were? >> i think it was all of that, but also i think one of the things that i thought i said we need to redefine the conversation is because i said earlier, it was the first time a women's cho russ dance, the first time syncopation was on
broadway. so it changed musical expression and was a crucial link and when we talk about show boat being the first musical where there is serious subject matter and westside story and oklahoma, "shuffle along" needs to be added to that conversation. >> rose: do you tour and tap all the time? >> all the time. >> rose: that's what i thought. >> that's what i do. >> rose: that's what you do. yeah. i'm going around spreading the tap gospel. >> rose: i know you are. but is it an international tour? are you spreading it around the world? >> all around the world, yes, sir. >> rose: and it's appreciated as much around the world as it is here or even more? >> it depends on the audience. you know, some are -- it's appreciated -- yeah, i mean, it's appreciated as well as it is here in abu dhabi. >> rose: you tapped in abu dhabi? >> close to it. >> rose: somewhere. opening in abu dhabi, savion
glover, the abu dhabi dancers! (laughter) >> as fresh and valuable as air is. >> rose: thank you both. thank you. >> rose: your first performance is? >> possibly july 24th. >> rose: there you go. thank you. >> thank you. >> rose: great to see you. good to see you, too. you have to come see the show. >> rose: i will. i will. >> yeah. >> rose: don't get out much. i know, exactly. >> rose: you work as hard as i do. thank you for joining us. see you next time. for more about this program and earlier episodes, visit us online at pbs.org and charlierose.com. captioning sponsored by rose communications captioned by media access group at wgbh access.wgbh.org
this is "nightly business report." with tyler mathisen and sue herera. seeking safety. investors dump stocks and flock b as uncertainty looms over the outcome of the uk referend ju how worried should investors be? buckle up. while you may want to keep the money you're saving at the gas pump to hedge against rising rates. a new record is set for charitable giving. all that and more tonight on "nightly business report" for tuesday, june 14th. good evening. welcome. i'm sue herera. tyler mathisen is on assignment tonight. leave or stay? investors around the world are starting to pay close attention to those few words. as we've been