Skip to main content

tv   Charlie Rose  KQED  November 22, 2016 12:00pm-1:01pm PST

12:00 pm
>> rose: welcome to the program, we begin this evening with tom friedman, author of new book thank you for being late, an optimist guide to thriving in the age of acceleration. >> what really triggered it book, charlie, at the deep sort of mehtaphysical level is that i covered the middle east all those years. and we took so many conversations about it. then i came back to america and what i started to feel was that we were becoming like shuni -- sunnies and shiites, when did we become sunnies and shiites. i don't want my kid to marry one of them, a democrat or republican saying one of that. and that is what terrified me. >> i conclude this evening with a conversation about the rise of jared kushner as an important advise tore president elect trump. we talk to emily jane fox of "vanity fair" and jonathan mahler of "the new york times." >> jared like donald values loyalty and family loyalty in
12:01 pm
particular. and so i think what he offers to donald is someone who has ideas, without has a vision, who works tireilessly, but who at the end of the day knows he has his back. and i think that is why he has been able to-- so quickly and so you can sesfully. >> rose: tom friedman, emily jane fox, jonathan mahler, when we continue. funding for charlie rose has been provided by the following: >> and by bloomberg, a provider of multimedia news and information services worldwide. captioning sponsored by rose communications from our studios in new york city, this is charlie rose. >> rose: tom friedman is here, a pulitzer prize winning author,
12:02 pm
he is as you know a columnist for "the new york times." is he known for tackling big ideas and wide-ranging subjects. he has a new book out which some are quawling his most ambitious yet. imagine that. it is called thank you for being late, an optimist guide to thriving in the age of acceleration. in it he argues that today's world is moving faster than ever, and will only get faster. i'm pleased to have tom friedman at this table. as always. let's, so let's just start and talk about the book, first of all. thawr for being late. >> comes from meeting people for breakfast in washington d.c. over the years, charlie, every once in a while someone comes 15, 20 minutes late and say tom, i was really sorry, the weather, the traffic, somebody was talking about homework. one day, about three years ago, i said to one of them, i think my friend peter corsell. i said to him, charlie, tallly, thank you for being late. because were you late, i have been eavesdropping on their conversation. i have been people watching the lobby, fantastic.
12:03 pm
and most importantly i just connected two ideas hi been struggling with for a month. so thank you for being late. people started to get into it. they said well, you're welcome. but what they understood is i was giving myself and them permission to slow down, to rethink, to reflect. pie favorite quote in the opening chapter comes if my friend doug sideman who says when you press the pause button on a computer, it stops. but when you press the pause button on a human being it starts. it starts to reflect, rethink, reimagine. and boy do we need to do a lot of that now in this age of acceleration. >> rose: so what is the age of acceleration. >> the book actually begins with me explaining to my parking garage attendant how to right a colume. the first chapter is about how to write a colume am if the world is big data set, this is my algorithm, so i say, a news story is meant to provoke,-- meant to inform, excuse me. can i write about the show and inform better, you say okay, did you okay. a colume is different.
12:04 pm
an opinion piece t is meant to actually provoke. it is to produce a reaction. so how do you do that? basically i'm either in the heating business or the lighting business. i'm either stoaking an emotion or he lime naturing something for you, if i do both together then you really have got a colume, i think. to produce heat and light requires a chemical reaction. you have to combine, i think, three compounds. first is what is your value set. are you a communist, a capitalistk a neo con, a neo liberal, libertarian, what are the values you are trying to proat. second how do you think the machine works. the machine is my short hand for what is the biggest forces shaping more thins in more places in more ways and more i das. as a columnist i'm carry in my hid's working theory of how the gears and pulleys of the world take. i'm trying to take my value set and push the machine, if i don't know how to work it, i push it wrong or in the wrong direction. and lastly how the machine affects real people and cultures and how they affect the machine. stir all those together, let it
12:05 pm
rise, bakemfor 45 minutes and if you do it right you will produce heat or light. the more i explain this to my parking garage attendance-- ant who is a blogger and really wanted to understand this, and this is how the book starts, the more i thought about well, what is my value set after all thesiers. where did it come from. it actually came from the town in minnesota where i grew up. how do i think the machine works today and what have i learned about people and culture. i decided that is the book i wanted to write. so how i think the machine works today, what is shaping more things and more places and more ways and more days, i think we're in the middle of three accelerations. exponential in many ways, in the three largest forces on the planet which i call the market, mother nature and moore's law. so moore's law according to our friend gordon moore 50 plus years ago said the speed and power microchips will double every 24 montds, if you put it on a tbraf it looks like a hockey stick, a proxy for technology. the market for me is globalization but not your grandfather's globalization, not
12:06 pm
containers on shipsk digital globalization, facebook, twitter, pay pal, all things digitized and globalized. put it on a graph, looks like a hockey stick, mother nature, climate change, by kro diversity loss, population, put it on a graph, looks like a hockey stick. i think's in the middle of three hockey stick accelerations all at the same time with the three largest forces on the planet, the market, mother's nature and moore's law and they are i think fundamentally reshaping it and reshaping politics, geo politics, they are reshaping the workplace, ethics and communities. so the first part of the book is about these accelerations. and the second part is how i reimagine, how i think we need to reimagine, give my crack on it, these different realms. >> rose: talking about speeding up, you point to 2007 in your colume yesterday. >> yeah. >> rose: which was when you think about it. >> phenomenal year. >> a phenomenal year. >> so we'll just stumbled on this as a wrote the book and
12:07 pm
looked around and realize that wow, what the hell happened in 2007. and in 2007 steve jobs came out with the iphone, he launched the smartphone revolution putting ace small handheld computer basically not only in the hands on its way to everyone on the plab etment but that wasn't all, that was just the beginning. facebook in 2007 came out of high schools and universities and was open to anyone with an email address t went global. twitter start inned 2006 but only went global in 2007. hadoob. the software-- that noun one ever cleared heard of created the foundation for big data by enabling people to tie together a million computers and make them act as one. it did an open source way. get hub the world's biggest software repository started in 2007. airbnb start inned 2007. the kindle, our friend jeff bezos came out with the kindle in 2007. google came out with and-- and road in 2007. i'm started-- in 2007.
12:08 pm
i have a graph in the book of the cost of sequencing a human genome, early 2,000, a hundred million dollars, then it goes like this and almost straight down waterfall, down to the bottom, what year was that, 2007. and in 2007 intel for the firs time went off sill i con, in the making of its microchip, introduced nonsill i con materials to extend moore's law and the exponential kept going. turns out that 2007 may be seen in time as one of the greatest technological inflection points ever. and we completely missed it because of 2008. >> rose: because of what happened in 2008 was we had the chnology's leapt ahead inesion 2007, and we all felt it, like we were on a movie sidewalk in a april that went from 5 miles an hour to 35 miles an hour. people felt like the tbrownd was moving under their feet. right when that happened, politics really froaz. yeah, it really, america gave us
12:09 pm
the tea party, the clash between them and obama. >> in 2008 it gave us obama. >> it did. but it gave us, he had two years to sort of do ingvar thises and ysical technologies move your. ahead, the new learning, the new regulating, the new social adaptations, the new managerial systems, a lot of that got froaz and i think a lot of people goes dislocated in that process. >> with what consequences? >> well, you know, if you think about people who drove this last election, we told, the white working class. and many noncollege educated but some college educated. so if you think about the history of the last 50 years, i have got a quote cuz the back part of the book is about growing up in minnesota where my value set came from. i have a quote from a congressman in minnesota who said you know, in minnesota, back in the '60s and '70s, if you were an average worker, you needed a plan to fail, okay. there was so much wind at our back. that we were big industrial economy, stood a stride the
12:10 pm
whole world. so many blue clar jobs. so that really sustained you know, sort of the less educated white working class. then starting in the '80s up to the early 2 thousand, what really helped these people as the world went global was an acute expansion of credit. and mortgages. and everyone's house value rose or many people who were homeowners. that was a way for them to ep coo up. then what happens in 2007/2008. the home mortgages crash. so people lose all of this equity, and a lot of them from the white working classment at the same time in 2007, machines start to be able to do incredible things. so the work that they were able to do suddenly more and more of it starts to be taken by machines for both blue clar people and white clar people. all that happened under obama's presidency. and i think it's a big part of this election. because those people got hit from two directions. the recession took away the equity they had built up in their house which is a way for
12:11 pm
them to keep up. and then suddenly they went to work and there was a robot next to them who seemed to be studying their job. >> so all of these things, then the acceleration starts coming because the globalization of ideas happen. they go to the bathroom and if if someone of another gender, they go to the grocery store and there are many more imgranteds. and this is for a lot of complicated reasons. so if you think of the two things that anchor people in their lives, their community and their workplace, both of them really got disturbed in the last decade. and i think again this election is partly reflecting that. >> rose: are they right to blame globalization. >> globalization is certainly part of it. there is no question. but-- . >> rose: even the president in europe said we have to rethink and think about and consider what modifications are necessary with respect to globalization and its impact. >> i think there is no question about that. but we also have to not ex age rate the impact of globalization relative to technology.
12:12 pm
"the new york times" used to have a-- we used to have a receptionist in the washington bureau. we don't any more. we didn't replace her way mexican, we replaced her with a microchip, we have voice mail. so technology, moore's law thing has been take sog many more jobs than globalization. there is certainly a part of the public though that it was hit by the expansion of trade, with china. remember a lot of people were also benefited from it as well. let's not forget that. but let's look at how all three of these accelerations work together. so last april i did a documentary for national geographic for years of living dangerously. we went to sen he gal and we followed climate refugees from sen gal up through niejer, to the border of libya trying to get into europe. >> rose: the climate refugee. >> so these are people, what is happened in sennegal, the whole paris climate agreement was to prevent two degrees rise sent grade since the industrial revolution.
12:13 pm
sennegal is already there. we-- they are heading for four degrees, okay. so what has happened is climate change has really hammered their agriculture, population growth then comes in, and now the land, the villages that are really the anchor for all of these communities in west africa. >> rose: can't support their demand. >> so we went to villages. they have no men, all the men from 18 to 60 are gone. they are on the road looking to get into europe. then what comes along, so we go to niejer and we watch because every monday thousands of them gather for a caravan and they are all coordinated by what's app, okay. so now they are using the globalization thing. by the way, you come up to them and say metaphorically, what we have been saying, we will give a live aids concert in europe, they said no, no, we don't want no live aid concert. i got europe on my cell phone. can i see it right here, this is the place i want to go and work. and my what'sapp guide, my human trafficker is promising to get me there. so you see all of these things
12:14 pm
coming together. remember, we've been seeing this refugee problem in europe. but the vast majority, three out of four easily are from wers african. they are not from the middle east, okay. they are climate economic refugees, so what happens, they show up in europe, and people are then say wait a minute, i don't feel at home, suddenly there is all kinds of strangers around me. and the same, it happened there bigger than it has happened in america. but the amount of illegal immigration from latin america and mexico had a similar effect around america. so you have the climate pushing people north. globalization is giving them the tools to come faster torque connect with each otherment and technology. and technology meanwhile is taking the job of the guy who is there, or he fears it is taking the job. so you put all three of, you got to see that all three are working together. so to me, to go back to your question, charlie, so what is the answer? you know. and cuz trump has promised these people he will take care of them.
12:15 pm
and here i will tell you, and i worked hard on this question in doing this book, i don't know what the answer is. let me start there, with total humility. here's what i learned in doing this book. i don't know what is sufficient to take care of all the white working class less educated in our country. a lot of people, brothers and sisters and neighbors, okay. so this is a serious que cuz if we're open we're going to get the signals first, be able to adapt. pick off the best minds, to create jobs we never heard of and at the same time everyone has to get more educated. that, you know, those two things are the only way, and you know what i learned, i was at a conference with charlie rose last fall. >> rose: yes. >> and theres with a woman at this conference, dnt know if you remember, whose job was tack tagging sharks for twitter. now who knew there was a job tagging sharks for twitter.
12:16 pm
and you come home from college, mom, dad i want to tag sharks for twitter. you can't be an optomistic mol guest. but who knew. if you keep it open, okay, are you going to get those jobs. by the way, she is going to need a massage at the end of the day, maybe someone to work on her house at the end of the day. so the worst thing we can do, charlie right now, is actually close up and tell people are you going to be okay. you don't have to, work hard or learn faster. because that i can't change. none of us can change that. >> rose: let me talk about two other technological areas. one is artificial intelligence, the other is the cloud. and how they are relevant to what we are talking about in terms of this. the age of acceleration and how they will change the future. >> so the chapter on that, a chapter on the workplace, how we turn ai into ia. how do we turn artificial intelligence into intelligence assistance, a and c, assistants and intelligence algorithm rims, all so we can help the average worker compete and thrive in the
12:17 pm
age of acceleration. so the the storyir give of intelligence assistance, at&t human resources department, which i profile in the book. so the way at&t has been doing it is their c.e.o. randall stefenson begins a year with a radically transparent speech, here is where we are going as a company, here is how i see the world, here are the skills are you going to need. let's say-- . >> rose: here are the companies i'm going to buy. >> that too. but that is all part of it, the changing at&t. because it's not your grandma's ma bell at all. so maybe they say there are ten skills you need to work in the eightate of the future. then they put all their employees on a system and they got charley rose, charlie, you got seven of the ten skills, will you need at at&t to thrive where we are going as a company. but you you are missing three. then they partner with audacity online university and got him to create nano degrees for all ten. then they say we will pay up at least $8500 a year to take these courses for the skills you don't
12:18 pm
have, on one condition, you have to take them on your own time. if charlie rose says you know, i climbed up way too many telephone poles, i don't want to do this, they have a wonderful searches package for you but you won't be working at at&t. so what are they saying to their employees it is a new bargain. the bargain is you can be a lifelong employee here. but only if are you a lifelong learner. and i think that's the social contract that is coming to the country. >> rose: contract of the future, you have to be a lifelong learner. >> you have to be a lifelong learner. if you do take those courses. >> we'll pay for it but do it on your own time. >> the other side of that is you will get the first shotd at these jobs when they come, we won't go outside but if you do play by the new rules, we will honor our side to make sure you get a shot at these jobs. but i think that is a social contract that is coming to a neighbor hoodz near you. if are you ready to be a lifelong learner, you can be a lifelong employee. and. >> because are you going to need new skills. >> and will you need them more often.
12:19 pm
and no one is kind of telling people that, charlie. that more will be on you. and everyone is coming along, hillary had her, you know, way of saying no problem for you. i will cut your taxes, i will give you free this or that, she was on to the education thing, definitely. trump has his thing, i will take care of it all. but nobody is really having that frank conversation that if you are a lifelong learner you can be a lifelong employee, but that is the only way. >> rose: they don't quite know exactly how to connect the dots. >> it just is happening too fast. >> rose: supernova cloud. >> before we leave ai wa, did you say to the-- you said what do you bring toy a chess match with a computer. >> that is a great story out of eric jolson, any mca fee second book the wonderful machine age, they gave the quote from a dutch grand master and he was once asked what would you bring to a chess match with a computer. and he said a hammer. so a lot of us, and i identify with that. i mean i started one thing i
12:20 pm
did, a chapter in the book called just too damn fast where i actually trace every writing device i have had since i was a journalist. i started on fleet street in london in 1978. >> rose: what was it. >> atu pi i worked on a type writer. and a tellex. now so i just googled adler type writer and the first thing that came up was antique adler type writer on sale on ebay. the device i started on is now an antique. a gole typwriter, i looked up wikipedia said the type writer was the main writing device from 1880 to 1980. and i started in 1978. so i was right at the end of the type writer. but just think about that, charlie. one writing device lasted a hundred years. and then i traced every writing device hi since. when i was in bay route in 1979, the way we route our stories was actually we had to write them three paragraphs at a time on paper, hand them to a tell exoperater who punched them into tell expaper, three paragraphs,
12:21 pm
no spell check, and then they were sent to new york. so i have seen,nd i sort of contrast that with i was in niejer on this trip and i did a colume from niger and i was leaving that i da, we had traveled around with the environment minister. he came to the airport, very nicely to see us off. and i said mr. minister, i quoted you in my colume today. about niger because we had eight hours ahead or whatever we were. he said i know, my kids in china already sent it to me. and i thought holy mackerel, his kids in china read it oninloo, they're at university in china, faxed or emailed it to him before my wife in bethesda had read it, you know. and i started on a type writer three paragraphs at a time. so my life like everybody else's has accelerated. >> rose: what's interesting too, the economy is changing. a lot of sharing economies we are looking at now, you think about uber.
12:22 pm
>> uber runs no vehicles, facebook owns no newspapers, these are obviously now airbnb owns no property. but sharing economy is going to be a big part of this new economy. and it's a product of 2007. what basically happened, i think charlie, is that in the early 2 thousands, we had a price collapse, in the price of connectivity that was cuz the price of fiber optic cable could lambed because the dot come boom bubble and bust. the price o collapsed and we accidentally shrunk the world. i came along at that point and i gave it a name, i said the world is flat. because suddenly we were in a world where i could be touched by people who could never touch me before. and touch people i could never touch before in 2007 was another price collapse, in the price of compute, of compute and storage. suddenly we could get millions of computers working together, store so much stuff. and we could analyze it and sift
12:23 pm
it and come up with all these new solutions. now when you put those two price do lapses together, suddenly connectivity became fast and free. and ubiquityus. and then solving complexity became fast, free and invisible. all things could you do with one touch. think what it was to get a cab five years ago. now today uber, one touch. can i rate the guy, i can see where i am going. all that complexity. >> see where he is. >> was reduced into one touch. when you put those two things together, that the world became hyperconnected and we could suddenly do so many complex things in a way where the complexity was all made invisible, you have a huge energy release. and it changed three kinds of power. changed the power of one. wow, we got a president-elect who can now sit in his penthouse and tweet at 6:00 in the morning and reach like 20 million people, directly. no charlry yoas, no tom friedzman, pot we are of one. but isis can do the same thing from raqqa t changed the power
12:24 pm
of machines. machines can now thirks design, they're cognitive, they can write poetry, ibm watson coquote a song that went to number four on itunes. with alex the kid. and it changed the power of ideas now flow faster than ever. let's remember five years ago barack obama said marriage was between a man and a woman. think how quickly that idea changed. blessedly so. think how gender rights changed, blessedly so. but-- . >> rose: social change now. >> blessedly so for you and me but for a lot of people it happened way too fast and they couldn't adjust themselves. >> rose: is there a pushback to acceleration. >> that's a really good question. so i don't think there say technological one. i don't think we're going to unmoore moore's law. but what i argue and there is the last part of the book, is that i believe that the proper governing unit, in the 2 1s century is not going to be the nation state. we will still have nation state to do national security and feds
12:25 pm
ral banks and currentee, not the single family because single family is too weak to stand up against these gale forces and many are now single parents, so they are really too weak. it will be the healthy community. that is close enough to people, to their lives, adaptive enough k help them with that lifelong learning and allow more and more people to be what my friend andy says connected, protected and respected. that is what the community really can do. and that is what it does at its best. and so we have talked about this before, charlie f you want to be an optimist about america, stand on your head. because the country looks so much better from the bottom up than the top downment because you go to raleigh durham, to minneapolis to usein, there are amazing communities here and i tell the story of minneapolis in the last part of the book, whereby the way, diverse people are living together, they're living together with fewer right left issues and much more
12:26 pm
bipartisan politics. they are solving their problems of education, of the workplace, amazing stuff is happening at the community level. my friend said you know, actually today nothing has to be invented. whatever you can imagine, by way of social reform, economic reform, learning system there is some community in america you are an optimist.scaled. this san optimist guide for thriving in the age of acceleration. >> i do a lot of drugs. >> don't tweet that, okay. >> i am an optimist. >> you are. >> i am. and essentially it is because of what? >> well, so i tell the story of my community. the last two chapters, the pent ultimate one is called always looking for minnesota. cuz i grew up in this little suburb outside of minneapolis called st. louis park and basically the story of my family is in the 40see and '50s, the jews in minneapolis all lived on the north side and the ghetto was the blacks. and there was a lo theoff sem
12:27 pm
tism, in the mid '50s, the vast majority of the jews all moved at once like an exodus, including my parents from the north side to one suburb, most of them, st. louis park. which at the time was 100 percent basically protestant catholic and mostly scandinavian. so overnight this suburb goes from 100 percent proat the-- protestant catholic scandinavia to 20% jewish. charlie, if-- in israel had a baby it would be-- and overnight, you get this explosion there of sort of wonderful sort of scandinavian plur allistic ethic and all this jewish-- new-- and i tell the story of our suburb because i grew up in the same suburb roughly at the same time with the cohen brother, al franken, allen wiseman, we all grew up, taking grew up in the same basically area at the same time, we all arc lot of us went to the
12:28 pm
same hebrew school, the cohen brothers move qulee a serious man was about our hebrew school and we all went out into the world. we saw pluralism work, inclusion work but this was white judao christians wile we had to work at building a community, we did build a great community t was a lot easier. now come back in the pen ultimate chapter to my same suburb 40 years laterment gi back to my high school, now it it is 50% white protestant catholic, 10% hispanic, 10% jewish, and 30% some ali and african american. same high school. they serve meals now in the dining room. so now the inclusion challenge is so much greater. the bridging divide is much deeper. and i say how are they doing, okay? and they are doing amazingly well, tully. they've got issues. we have seen police shootings in st. paul, they have got issues. but my friend amy lovin' says
12:29 pm
whenever anyone asks you are an optimist or pes mist, he says i'm neither because they are two forms of fatal im, everything is going to be great, everything is going to be awful. he says i believe in applied hope. and that is what i believe in, charlie that is my optimistic. i go back to minneapolis and see a lot of people applying hope that is why the book does end, it does have a theme song. it is by brandi car lyle, a wonderful country folk singer, and i did joke about if i could only buy the song so when you open the book it it would play that song like a hallmark card plays happy birthday. the main refrain of that song is i wrapped your love around me like a chain, but i never was afraid that it would die. you can dance in a hurricane but only if you are standing in the eye. and i think the healthy community is the eye. now trump and others are selling a wall to the hurricane. and mi arguing you got to build an eye that moves with these winds, okay, draws energy from
12:30 pm
them, but creates a platform of dynamic stability within them. that's the healthy community. i'm not with the wall people, i'm with the eye people. >> rose: this book is dedicated you say this is my seventh and who knows maybe my last book. since published from bay root to jerusalem since 1989, lucky to vay special group of teeper friends with me on this journey, many starting with the firs book and everyone since have been incredibly generous in helping me think through ideas over many years over many hours, over many books and columes. this book is dedicated to them and you list a whole group of people from larry diamond to john door. and amy levins who you mention and michael mannedel balm and craig moneyedi and others. so we just want through an election. donald trump to the surprise of many and i think you, was elected. polls were wrong. pundits were wrong.
12:31 pm
donald trump would say people were right. you called it a moral 9/11. what did you mean? >> i mean we overlooked enormous abusive-- . >> rose: we. >> we as a soatd to think that we elected him. we overlooked incredibly indecent behavior. we overlooked the man who spoke about our brothers and sisters in this country, in viel ways. not to mention our women. we overlooked enormous indecent behavior. this man yesterday settled a suit for $25 million for fraud at a university that was supposedly dedicated to the people who voted for him. we overlooked a lot. that is what i meant. >> here is what i don't understand. we overlooked. >> i'm saying the society that elected him was ready to overlook enormous-- . >> rose: they were the ones that say i know that. >> i know all that about him.
12:32 pm
>> rose: but mi so angry, letdown, disappointed. >> yeah, alienated. >> rose: alienated by the system, the establishment, the government. >> that i'm ready to do it. >> rose: i'm going to take a chance. >> yeah. >> rose: i know this is a flawed man. >> yes. >> rose: but these are. >> that is what i meant. we are ready to overlook enormous flaws of an industrial scale that we have never done before as a country. and that is what i meant in that. by the way, i never predicted trump would win but i sure didn't predict he was going to lose eitherment i covered him every day as a real possibility. and-- . >> rose: you indeed did. >> and so i don't know what is going to happen. i wish him well. i wish the country well now. the country has chosen. we only have one president a at a time. he will be the president for the next four years. i'm not going to do what some help cans did the last years for obama and root for him to fail. my posture is what i called
12:33 pm
principled engagement. i'm not here to forgive and forget, that was all fine. no, no, things were said, things were done. people are raw, he needs to engage that. but at the same time, if he comes out at the right place on climate, for instance, i will be applauding and i will be urging him on, you know. and if he doesn't, i will be a principled opponent. >> rose: what do you make of him so far since he was elected? tone is one thing. >> you know. >> rose: you also are known by the decisions you make and decisions that he is making at this time have to do with personnel. >> yeah. he's appointed people, steve bannon, i don't know this person. i read some people say es a really good decent guy. other people point to things he's written and that he is overseen that were said by his ex-wife, that are chilling in terms of the racist and anti-semitic quality of it. i don't know these people. i know mike flynn a little bit. i knew him from the field. i don't know the mike flynn-- i
12:34 pm
mew niek flynn who worked for sam mcchrystal. i don't know this mike flynn. at the same time, i jeff sessions, you know, everything i read about him sets off red lights to me, about things he's said in the past. i'm waiting for him to fill out his cabinet. in the nature of politics i can see a guy saying i have to feed my base with some of this stuff. but then i'm going to appoint mitt romney as secretary of state, maybe. i think that with be a very good choice for dn ald trump. and who knows who he will appoint at defense or any of these other key-- treasury, these are key positions. >> rose: we know on defense. >> it looks like a real possibility, also a decent guy. so what worries me, charlie is this, in the age of acceleration, when the world was slower, when you were growing newspaper north carolina, me in minnesota, if we have a governor or mayor who got off track, you just need to go 500 miles, if you had a bad mayor or governor, even president, we are
12:35 pm
going-- things were move sog slow you can get back on track. when the world accelerates like this, small errors in navigation can have huge consequences. so if we get off track now in the age of acceleration on climate, for instance, not just on, that on education, all these other issues, getting back on track could be just enormously painful. and so leadership always matters. it matters even more now. small errors in navigation in the age of acceleration can have huge compounding effects. >> rose: with respect to foreign policy, i mean if you were presenting a sense of the challenge that he faces, there is isis, there is north korea, there is schiena there is russia. and he is prepared, he says, certainly not to support trade agreements. he wants to renegotiate or not abandon. >> yeah. >> rose: what is the consequence of that? >> so let me tell you what i argue in the book are the
12:36 pm
foreign policy challenges of the next president. i begin by saying really charlie, if the president-elect calls you and says charlie, i would like you to be secretary of state, i interviewed every leader in the world, say mr. president collect, i had my heart set on agriculture, okay, because i think running foreign policy in this world is going to be hell on wheels am mama, don't let your daughters grow up to be secretaries of state, okay. why is that? because i think you have to manage four balances of poker with. one is the traditional one, big poker w america russia, china, america russia, china. let's put that over there. what are the new ones. the first is the balance of power between coherent and incoherent states because what is happening in the age of acceleration is we have a lot of states just collapsing. and really just teetering on the edge. during the cold war, charlie, it was a wonderful time to be a weak little state. you had two superpoers with, for 50 years of the cold war two superpoers with throwing money at you, competing for you,
12:37 pm
educate your kids at the university of moscow or north carolina. they would give you foreign aid, 3w4r-d your government house, rebuild your army, populations ung people, few old people,f climate change was moderate. couldn't take low wage labor. all of those advantages are gone, now in the age of acceleration, no superpower wants to touch you except russia and syria because all you win is a bill. nobody wants you at all. climate change is hammering you. populations are bigger and more older people to take care of. and china is in the world trade organization. i mean i tell the story if the book of i'm in egypt where you and i were together. and after those three weeks we were there together. i go home, at kie ro airport, i met the treasurer of egypt's supernear shop gone three weeks from my wife, i have to bring ann something home, have i been away from her, what do they have here, pyramid ashtray, ann doesn't smoke. what do they have here. they have a stuffed camel where if you queez its hump it honks.
12:38 pm
well, my honey doesn't have a honking hump camel. i take it and go to the cash register, buy it and turn it over, what does it say on the bottom, made in china, yeah, you are the lowest wage country in the eastern mediterranean called egypt and that is now a country half a world away can make a honking hump camel cheaper than you can, ship it, you know, take it back and take the pun back. and so all of these accelerations are now hammering these countries. a lot of them aren't going to make it. they are like trailer homes in a trailer park. built on slabs of cement with no foundation no basement. my accelerations are like a tornado going through a trailer park and creating a vast world of disorder. what you see in europe is in that part of the world, is really now the world of order and the world of disorder. mediterranean is the dividing line and tense of thousands of people are trying to get out of the world of disorder into the world of order, that is just one balance you have to manage. now you have to manage the balance also between makers and
12:39 pm
breakers. because these accelerations have supermakers if you want to make something, were you born at the right time, great time to be a maker. unfortunately when it's good for makers, it's great for breakers t is great to be isis and great time to be 3d printer expert. and the last balance you have to manage is the balance of integration. cuz when the world get this interdepend ent, first your friends can kill you faster than your enemies. if greece goes bankrupt, you and i will feel that you and i and everyone in this building will feel it tbrees say nato ally, greece is in the eu, greece can kill us now. at the same time your rivals falling becomes more dangerous than your rivals rising. so if china takes three more shall-- in the south china sea, i really don't care, don't tell anybody, okay. if china stock market melts down tomorrow, everyone in this city will feel it okay. an russia, if putin, whatever he is muking around in the border what if putin collapses and they spill thousands of nuclear
12:40 pm
weapons on to the world stage and thousands of nuclear scientists. so our rivals falling is more dangerous than our rivals rising. and managing weakness, that is so hard. managing strength, that is easy. you are strong, i'm strong, cross what that inloo, i will punch you in the nose. managing weak sns hell on wheels. >> we should take a responsibility in terms of making sure that russia does not collapse. >> right. and at the same time, they take a bite out of ukraine. i'm saying, managing these balances now, are so complicated. is trump up to it? will his team be up to it i'm not going to say no. all i'm saying is it is much harder than before. >> here is what i worry about and you may not. i said this to president obama. i want to talk to you about it for a moment later. we have got the technology like no one else. a military like no one else. an economy like no one else. we have universities like no one else. we have all these things, so i said to him, so what could go wrong. he said our politics could go
12:41 pm
wrong. in the end as bob gates said, you know, the biggest challenge to america, right now is you know, three or four square miles in washington d.c. >> so. >> how do we fix our politics. >> so one of my election night colume began with a story that a friend of mine lesley gold wassers, an immigrant from zimbabwe said to me a few years ago. she said you americans kick around this country like it's a football. but it's not a football. it is a fabber gay egg, you can drop it, you can break t what really trig ared this book for me at the deep sort of mehtaphysical level is that i covered the middle east all those years, we took so many conversations about it and then i came back to america. and what i started to feel was that we were becoming like sunnies and shiites. when did we become sunnies and shiites. i don't want my kid to marry one of thep, a democrat or republican saying that. and that is what terrifies me.
12:42 pm
that we are become ising sunnies and shiites, that we are becoming triballized. and again that's why the book ends on this community, and communities that build pluralism, that build tolerance, that you get people to work together. i tell the story of the-- i don't have time to talk about it, atasca project in minneapolis but an amazing bipartisan coalition that is helping govern the state of minnesota in an incredibly progressive way. do you know what their symbol is t is a dining room table where everybody gathers around. >> it is going into the sit snian, baby. but it is a stable we all gather around and it has no siers sides. and we have so-- we are become sog triballized and if you are like me, sort of a con again tal optimist and con again tal can't we figure out a way to bridge these gaps, you know. i wrote this book as a baifg how-to for how to bring the
12:43 pm
country together also. >> rose: legacy of barack obama? >> you know, i saw-- jz. >> rose: just think about one thing he wanted to pivot away from middle east and pivot to lat inamerica, africa and especially asia. >> so hard to talk about his legacy, charlie, unconnected to the legacy of mitch mcconnell that is of the republicans who dedicated themselves really to making him fail. i'm sorry, they did not say you are here, are you our only president. we don't want you to fail. i cannot going to blame it all on him but he also had issues how he reached out but they bear a lot of blame for that we'll see what-- . >> rose: which is interesting, now, even some of trump's people including obama, including hillary clinton have said, you know, we are not going to do to you what you did to us. they owe him the opportunity. >> that was not-- mitch mcconnell thasm say big issue.
12:44 pm
>> i mean the republicans too, who were against him as well. >> yes. >> have said we owe hmmmm a chance to see what he is going to do. >> obviously obamacare and we will see what of it survives is going to be a big issue. i do think he was basically right in his instinct, to say the middle east today is is completely contorted by the u.s. iranian cold ware, let's see if we can die fuse that i think the book is open on that and we will have to see what happens over ten years. but when i think of obama, charlie, i any of my wife was for a long time a chairman of the-- school fun daition a charter boarding school in washington d.c. and one day there were about five, six years ago, the obamas came. and. >> came to the school. >> to visit and there was a picture that was taken by the white house photographer. and it was a little black girl with her arms around michelle obama's legs. she was a tiny little thing so she didn't even come up to her waste. and all you saw were her arms on
12:45 pm
the other side. and i saw that picture and i said to myself who of us can know what it means to a little african-american girl to have michelle obama as her first lady. and that is part of his legacy too. >> rose: it is. thank you for being here, the book, thomas l friedman, just think about this as we close, just think about this. from bay root to injures lem in 1989, the lechus and the olive tree in '99, lo j teuds and attitude ins 2002. the world is flat in 2005. hot, flats and crowded in 2008. that used to be us with michael mannedelbalm in 2011 and now in 2016, thank you for being late. thank you for coming to this table. >> a pleasure. thanks so much, charlie,. >> rose: back in a moment, stay with us. >> we conclude this evening with the consideration of jared kushner's potential role in the trump administration. is he married to donald trump's
12:46 pm
eldred daughter ivanka trump. while he kept a low public profile he is believed to have played a pif oltal role in his father-in-law's bid for the presidency in contrast to the regular staff reshuffling during the campaign, he has emerged as a steadying and powerful influence and is believed to have the ear of both trump and his innercircle. joining me now emily jane fox from "vanity fair" and jonathan mahler from "the new york times." tell me about what he has brought to donald trump. >> i think jar easy like donald-- jared like donald values loyalty and family loyalty in particular. so i think what he offers to donald is some one who has ideas, who has a vision, who works tireilessly but who at the ends of the day knows has his back. and i think that is why he as been able to earn the ear so quickly and so successfully. >> go ahead. >> yeah, i think that is the key point to me is that all these other advisors, they have their own constituencies, they have
12:47 pm
their own people that they are kind of looking out for, whose interests they are representing when they talk to donald. but jared is all about donald, jared is there to protect donald. >> my impression is and you can correct me about this, it is the idea that they has been there without an agenda other than donald trump. >> yup. >> he has no personal agenda in this. >> yect, yeah. >> and what he has done is been able to have obviously had good judgement, otherwise donald trump is all about winning. >> yeah. >> rose: and so somebody had to be contributing and adding value to what he was doing. >> yeah, yeah. i think that's right. i think that he has show found a way to both sort of by both trusting his own instinct. he has no political experience whatsoever. i mean none. but by trusting his own instincts and listening to donald and kind of echoing what donald says and seems to want t is almost like is he kind of surfing the donald wave in a way. is and yeah, it's worked.
12:48 pm
he has had a huge role, played a huge role but all very much behind the scenes. i mean. >> no specific areas in which he has played a role other than judgement. >> i think he was credited more building up the digital operation that really helped target a voter base that was left behind or not being spoken to throughout the campaign. that say big win in jared's colume here. but i think what jared has done in the campaign is what he has done for most of his life and adult life, certainly, where he kind of lucked into a situation because of his family. and because he works really hard and elise ins and he hires good people. and is he able to kind of del gate the minute usualia, is he able to find success in doing that. >> is there any problem about family members working in the white house? >> huge problem, huge problem. >> you know, they're antinepotism statutes.
12:49 pm
>> except on the other hand, the president has a great deal of constitutional authority to do whatever he wants and to choose hine his own advisors, so this is really an unresolved question, is what sort of role he is going to be allowed to play realitily and there could very well be an actual legal challenge. this might get fawt out in the courts. >> go ahead. >> the statute came in 1967 after robert kennedy served as the attorney general. >> yeah. >> and it does apply to inlaws as well. i know people have raised the question does it count because is he the son in law, it does apply but the president has these broad executive power. jared may very well take on an advisory role and not take pay, it may be an informal position that actually has a lot of formal authority. >> rose: for example with bill clinton you had vernon jordan. >> you also had hillary clinton. >> rose: hillary clinton as well. but people who don't have an official position but continue to have enormous influence. >> absolutely.
12:50 pm
>> correct, they have been talking about having him actually in an official capacity as well. they say he won't take salary but that doesn't really-- . >> rose: you have to take something, like a dollar. >> he has been talking to the lawyer about the possibility of making it a formal position. >> rose: yeah. the idea that you wrote which we have talked about, in the chaos that often team seems to surround mr. trump, the churn of advisor, the twitter wars with reporter, daily uncertainty over who was making decisions, i have never seen much uncertainty about that. it always seemed trump was making decisions based on what they said plrks kushner emerged as the closest thing to a steadying influence inserting optimism, playing down controversies and reinforce plg trump's perceptions, worldview and instincts. >> yeah, i mean and a good example of that is steve bannon. when steve bannon came under fire right after his appointment, jared privately told the trump team that he was a good guy and that. >> came to his defense. >> came to bannon's defense with the trump team. so you know, done alt had made his decision. and jared sorted of defended the
12:51 pm
decision privately internally. >> another great example is as your colleagues at the "new york times" reported over the weekend, the day that he access hollywood tapes came out, donald was secluded with advisors. the following day jar easy is was there as well and donald went to face a crowd and he was a little bitd nervous about it and jared said go talk to your voters. go speak to the people who are going to vote for you and they are not going to care about this. >> he said don't worry about the other people. these peernlings the hundred people who are outside-- . >> rose: so he is the one that got him to go downstairs. >> donald went down and when he came back up, jared said to him, donald said there are 2500 people down there, and jared said those are the people who are going to make you president. those are the people who are going to be voting for you. >> rose: he was right about that. >> there you go, there is where jared has come out on top. >> rose: what do you think 6 the transition so far. >> i think it has been rife with controversy from day one. it seems to be from all reporting it seems to be
12:52 pm
steadying a little bit. but there has been civil wars, there have been-- . >> rose: at the same time, at the same time as was pointed out this morning, we had a conversation with one of the people who had been covering the transition and it is essentially qulon track, is he not that far behind. >> yeah or behind at all. >> he has picked it up. >> rose: but the changes, he had they had a transition committee which has been upside down. mike pence became, in a sense, nouncement.n terms of ana veryly >> again they pushed out two of the transition advisors and that was jared's doing as well. >> yeah. >> rose: he had an influence in that. >> and christie too, jared wanted christie out as well. >> much has been said about jared's personal relationship with chris christie and how that has played out in the campaign. and again through the transition. >> rose: when christie was a prosecutor in new jersey. >> put his father behind bars. >> rose: what is he saying
12:53 pm
about tweeting donald trump? >> i mean it's clearly. >> the advice of the the vice president to hamilton. >> did he indeed and he tweeted about saturday night live. >> rose: didn't like it. >> did not like that alec bald win's portrayal of him. this is obviously an ongoing issue during the campaign because his staff wanted him to stop doing it. and he didn't want to so he did for awhile. but he has taken it back up. i mean by all appearances he's not going to stop. we could have the sitting president of the united states sending out tweets at 2 in the morning, lark out at people or just kind of weighing in on something. i mean we might, that might be the reality. >> rose: any indication of whether he will give a press conference or speak to america. >> until the state of the union. >> i would say it is obviously a the window has passed for that to happen. and so until it happens, i think it's hard to say what donald trump will actually do. >> rose: i would assume he
12:54 pm
probably wants to get through all the maijary fointment-- appointments. >> of course. >> rose: has a government in place and every, how many jobs does ve to fill. >> so many. >> rose: there are white house a points. >> from the ground. he also i don't think he expected to be in this role facing these tasks. >> i think this is a very dawnting proposition that he faces. you saw that the president said that he was very sober in the meeting with him in ot val office last week. >> rose: they both say went longer than they expectedded. >> 90 minutes it was supposed to be a short meeting, say hello, show the new grounds. >> where he will be living. >> may be living. >> rose: he will be living there. >> you have to imagine that he wanted reassurance. he needed reassurance. for him this was about the win, about getting it the win. >> rose: he has talked about globalization in europe. he talked about pop lism in europe, he also talked about he character rised donald trump based on his impression because they had not met before, as
12:55 pm
being pragmatic. as much pragmatic as he was part of a movement. >> idea logical. i think that is fair. i think that is an accurate assessment. is he doesn't seem to be idea logical, doesn't seem to be political. >> rose: hell of a story. >> it it has been. >> only just getting started. >> rose: thank you, emily. >> such a pleasure. >> rose: thank you for joining us. we'll see you next time. for more about this program and earlier episode visit us online at pbs.org and charlie rose.com. captioning sponsored by rose communications captioned by media access group at wgbh access.wgbh.org
12:56 pm
>> rose: funding for "charlie rose" has been provided by: >> and by bloomberg, a provider of multimedia news and information services worldwide. >> you're watching pbs.
12:57 pm
12:58 pm
12:59 pm
1:00 pm
and their buns are something i have yet to find anywhere else. >> 'cause i'm not inviting you to my house for dinner. >> breaded and fried and gooey and lovely. >> in the words of arnold schwarzenegger, i'll be back! >> you've heard of connoisseur, i'm a common-sewer! >> they knew i had to ward off some vampires or something. >> let's talk desserts gentlemen, 'cause i se

28 Views

info Stream Only

Uploaded by TV Archive on