tv Charlie Rose PBS October 26, 2017 12:00am-1:01am PDT
. >> rose: welcome to the program. we begin this evening with an announcement that our good friend jeff glor has been selected as the new anchor of the cbs evening news. you got to know jeff when he came here to substitute for me when i was not available. is he a remarkable young journalist and we wish him well as he inherits an important position in journalism. we begin tonight with xi jing ping becoming chien' most poweringful leader in decades. we talk to richard mcgreg or and jiayang fan of "the new yorker" magazine. >> it is very evidence that jinping wants to lead china back into the center of the world. he want the world to see the country not as just another superpower but as the superpower. and it is also quite obvious
that he does not intend to lead the country on the path of liberal democracy. and he wants to show that the model, the rule that he has exemplified of disciplined authoritarian state, that this is a very possible and ideal is model of rule for other countries around the world. >> rose: we conclude with tom friedman of "the new york times." his book thank you for being late, and optimist guide to thriving in the age of acceleration is out now in paperback. >> trump is a brain-eating disease, so that is that he is-- he sucks up all the oxygen in the roomment we feel we have to write about him, so much, as a columnist, on the one hand i don't want to because i'm not really learning anything when i wrote that colume today. i'm just sort of emoting. expressing my concern. but the fact is, a whole bunch of stuff happening in the world. and i am worried that a whole generation of journalists and
columnists will wake up four years from now and god i hope i'm not one of them but i fear i could be and wake up three years from now and realize i didn't learn anything. it's been four years writing about trump. and meanwhile a really big thing happened in the world. >> rose: a look at the 1940 congress in beijing and xi jinping. also tom friedman when we continue. >> funding for charlie rose is provided by the following. bank of america, life better connected. >> and by bloomberg, a provider of multimedia news and information services worldwide. captioning sponsored by rose communications from our studios in new york city, this is charlie rose.
>> rose: china's come nis party congress comes to an end today. the new standing committee was unveiled with no successor. it was after jinping was enshrined in the charter. in his opening speech last week xi declared a new era for china saying it would take center stage in world affairs. xi now emerges from the congress as china's most powerful leader in decades. >> joining me from boston richard mcgreger, former-- . his latest book is you will cad asia's reckoning, the struggle for global dominance. also here with me from new york is jiayang fan, a staff writer for "the new yorker," her latest peeses, at the party congress xi jinping plays the emperor orror. pleased to you have on the program, richard, let me begin with you in boss be to.
where does xi come out of this sth. >> well, he comes out as more powerful than ever. he comes out of the position where for any potential rivals it's dangerous to challenge him, it's her esy to challenge him. he thousand dominates not just the pollity buro in the central committee, over the last year he's got all of his people into the heads of the big provinces and cities and the like. sows' really quite unchallengeable. and the big question of course is what does he want to do with that power and that's not really so clear. >> rose: well clearly though, i mean he clearly suggests that china has a broader role to play in the world. >>s that to me is the most astounding thing about this congress it is quite a transform tiff event in some ways jinping is not the story, the communist party is the story. china for many years had a dik tum for its foreign policiment the same thing applied to the communist partiment it was an o pack secret of organization.
they didn't promote themselves but if you look at the material coming out of this congress they are really talking about themselves as not quite short of the shining city on the hill but authoritarian shining city on the hill it is an example for other countries in the world about how to definitely and how to position yourself. and i think really in that respect it's been a transform tiff event this congress. >> who were the losers at this party congress. >> i guess there has been a trail of losers for the last fave years because he's put so many people away or eliminated them. there are a couple of senior people who might have got up and didn't get up. anybody who thought they might have a chance of being nominated a loser as well.essor, i think is the most important ally for the first five years of his term, i think suspect we'll see chijung stay on as an advisory form. >> what do we say about this
idea that he is now in the chinese constitution with his principles of socialism with chinese characteristics for a new era. >> yeah. yes. >> rose: what do we learn from that? >> i think first of all the fact that-- . >> rose: that he is included. >> that he is included is of monumental importance. it really puts him in the ranks of mao and dung and he now is completely unassailable in a way that no leader has been in decades. his thought really is one of rejuvenation of the chinese nation. really putting the country back into the center of the stage. i think xi has thought that if mao was the founding father of communist china who made the country independent and unified. and if dung was the leader who
made china rich, then he would be the one who makes china strong. who restores to china its proper glory. the glory that has been denied china in his opinion for centuries. that is, but that it's rightfully belongs to the country. and i think it's very evident from xi jinping's thought that he wants to lead china back into the center of the world. he wants the world to see the country not as just another superpower but as the superpower. and it is also quite obvious that xi does not intend to lead the country on the path of liberal democracy. and he wants to show that the model, the rule that he has exemplified of disciplined awe
tor-- authoritarian state, that this is a very possible and ideal model of rule for other countries around the world. >> rose: for someone, richard, without kepted xi jinping to be a political reformer, that's not going to happen. >> no. and i think you know, you and i mentioned the word reform we think of liberalization, that lead, the next step is more like the west, more like america, in a more market reform. when the chinese talk about reform, they're not talking about that, they're talking about refining their system, refining the communist system, refining the sort of hybrid economy in which are you getting not just the growing private secretarier but the party forcing the state and private sector together. and no he's not a political reformer. i think thases' the big thing. they just don't make any bones about that any more. and frankly it's much easier for them to do that because they have to say to people you believe in democracy, look at
america. look at the u.k., it's not a model for us it might not be a model for anyone. >> in that way trump is a real gift to xi jinping at this point. the state of american democracy and of american politics is a real boon to chinese pom particulars and really, i think, how people in china feel about the chinese model politics. >> rose: you said in america we're much better system than that. >> they say look at the bufoon who is running os sense tea-- os tensely the wrrld's most powerful country and lack at the disciplined leader we have that at least plans 30iers ahead of time. trump doesn't even seem to be able to control what he will write three hours ahead of time. that contrast i think is very, very evident to the world. and especially i think at this moment to the chinese people who are thinking twice about you know what is the ideal political system for them to be living in. >> rose: richard, do you think that we will ever see a move by
the chinese to respect human rights? >> well, not in the way that we see it. if you look at-- . >> rose: or in the way they see it. >> i mean you know the argument the chinese have for human rights, it's about lifting people out of poverty, giving people a better life and this is more important. but the human rights depends on an independent legal system, an independent democracy. people able to challenge state power and not get into trouble for it. and that is not happening? in fact the opposite is having. one of the groups targeted in xi jinping first five years are act vition lawyers, so called rights lawyers. there is no change on the horizon there. >> rose: who is the strongest influence on xi jinping. >> well, that is a very good question it was cheshung, i would like to draw attention to one person in the standing committee. i think fourth or fifth rank, a
juan you hadanyone, he is like not so of the cardinal of the elbow but the idea log of the elbow, an interesting character who has advised, he is elevated by glin jin pirntion in charge of ideology, propaganda, party organization, party building and because he used to be a professor at the university in shanghai he left a vast paper trail. and he's the architect of neo authoritarianism, the architect of arguments against western democracy for china. and i think his inclusion signals to me a hardening of the arteries in china in support of their system and as said in some respects kind of contempt for western democracy and western criticism of them. >> rose: the chinese see that what they are beginning to do is simply the destiny that they already had, that everything that has happened over the last 200 years has been an inturntion. >> right, or a hundred years.
>> right. and that sense of shame about what is happened at the hand of foreign forces 200 years ago and also in the inherent exceptallism, that china is faded to be the-- fated to be the most powerful country, nation in the world, that combination is very volatile. and it can be toxic as well. because many in china, chinese politicians and chinese people believe that it has been the west that has kept china down. that so much of western ideology has been about-- . >> rose: containment. >> has been about containment, and deliberate sub ju gaition of the chinese people. and that is a very, very powerful-- that inspires a very powerful patronnism, but it also turns the people against
anything that has the whiff of western ideology, individualism, liberal democracy and that reflexive sense of contempt, as you say for anything western, i think, can really derail progress in china moving forward. >> rose: any possibility from both of you that the region will become alarmed and vietnam and india and south korea all will feel a sense that they must come together in order to restrain china? >> i think that is a fascinating point actually. because even though china is announcing-- its arrival on the global stage, peak china, have a think about itment china has territorial disputes with japan, vietnam, malaysia, indonesia, brunai, the philippines, is currently beating up on south
korea over the antimissile system. it does not get on with north korea, in theory its ally. it's just had a big dispute with india and the like. so china is, that is china's big failing. i mean they are telling everybody how wonderful their system is and beneficial it is for everybody but people do not feel reassured. and i think that's big trouble ahead in those areas. and those other countries that i mentioned are all organizing themselves in part because of the relative decline of the u.s., organizing themselves together in ways to push back against china. >> and we have to keep in mind the history of china in asia as the most dominant power and its system of trib you tear states, vietnam, korea, used to all be inferior states that would offer trib u tarry gifts to china and that relationship has always been one of a beesment and fear.
and the surrounding countries now, i must imagine, have a similar sense of fear of a growing china but also this anxiety about being on the wrong side of china. so that sense of both fear and wanting to appease this growing power i think are both present. >> rose: china in its five year plan has made the decision to try to move from being an export economy to a domestic consumption economy. have they made progress on that? >> absolutely they've made progress on that. maybe not as fast as some say but i think the growth in consumption has outpaced that of exports for many, many years and it's also starting to give greater powers to parity with investment that is one trend. i think the other big trend is about technology and china's greater technological advancement. they have a big policy to be by 2025 to be the leader or in parity with the u.s. on a whole
range of technologies like ai, semiconductors and the like that is an immense challenge for the u.s. and western countries both to keep face with china advancement but also to manage the issue in terms of trade conflict. >> rose: it's also true in bio medical things as well. >> absolutely in bio medical. massive state investment in china in those areas. bio medical, the rice genomics and all that sort of thing. china is really working on that. >> rose: it is a commitment to, it seems china has made both a financial and a policy commitment to the future. i mean we can have long conversations about whether a country that doesn't allow freedom of expression and things like that, whether that will be an inhibbitying factor but you clearly have a commitment to science and the future. >> that is very much true. and i think for xi jinping when you asked earlier who he is listening to, i see a curious comparison between xi and
china's first emperor. he was the emperor who unified the state into what is now modern day china. and his two catch words were unity and discipline. and if you listen to the party congress in xi's three and a half hour marathon speech, those were also his catch words. the sense that china will be the greatest empire on earth. and in order for this to live and thrive it needs to keep itself in order and it needs to make long-term goals like you just said in technology and in economics and most importantly, i think, it's about keeping its economy growing. and its people for the most part prosperous and satisfied.
>> one other person i hadn't asked about is the chinese premier. >> yes, premier li, is he he survived, actually i always thought he would survive. there is always these kind of rumors before these congresses. i guess the issue about li is whether he will have more autonomy, more ability to run the economy as his position suggests he should or whether he will just continue to be in xi jinping's shadow. you will find many people saying that xi jinping and li are on the same page with the economy and the likement but one person can't take responsibility for all these policy areas and political areas and diplomatic areas as xi jinping does. i mean he really, i think, has to let go. i mean-- is quite right to talk about unity and discipline, i'm not sure this approach works in the longer-term. >> yes, i very much agree on that front. you sense from this party
congress the vastness of expwhri's ambition and the fact that it's all built on himself being at the center of all these different streams of power. and you wonder, you know, given the lofty goals he set out for china and for himself at the top of china, are they z you know, are they, you know, feasible given that he is one man and the country is as complicated. >> rose: how old is he, 67? >> i think he's 64, richard s that right? >> i think that's right. >> rose: we don't really know who is the most influential person, you suggested one person in the standing. >> there is juan chichange, the number three or four guy, his chief of staff, mr. januaryshow
is very influential and you have people coming up in the pollity buro plrks minutear is another one i think. >> rose: any women? >> no. >> there is one woman in the politboro, jiayang you can speak to that if you like. >> you know, i have been so demoralized by the pictures of the party congress, you know, over the last week. just the sea of dark suits. >> rose: it looks something like this, in "the new yorker." >> and you see, you know, you see so few, you see so few women. and i mean richard, i would like your sense on this. but i feel like the women without do get in, they do so by towing the party line and being quite, and being, you know rigorously competent but there isn't a sense that they are pushing for, necessarily pushing for the rights of women or really trying to rewrite the rules in any meaningful sense. >> no, they often come up through party organizations or
party-led bodies like the china all women federation. i think will you find in china in the private sector in the entrepreneurial secretarier there is a ton of really successful women. there is a lot of arguments about whether, in fact, china did emancipate women immediately after the 49 revolution. >> right. >> whatever happened with that, it is not happening now. and there's no sort of, you expect a queue of people coming up through the system to get to the top ranks but they're just not there. >> rose: one last question for both of you. how did he do it? how did this man who was a victim of the cultural revolution rise to the powerful position he has. -- magazine said the most powerful man in the world. >> i think he has the advantage of being a princeling which means that he is the son of a very prominent communist member who was-- . >> rose: who also was a victim of the cultural revlation and
fought with mao. >> but who then bounced back and served in prominent capacity in the government. i think he was very strategic in his reticence and in shielding the world for the most part from the scope of his ambition up until '07. and i think he has been a very astute observer of the past two generations of leaders. and he has said to himself i want to be-- i want to be rewriting the rules like mao. i want to be, i want to be making, putting china on the map like dung. i don't want to be another colorless tech no krat like hu jing tao, his immediate
predecessor. and he spent his first five years running a powerful anticorruption campaign that-- . >> rose: led by jan chijung. >> his, his trusty lieutenant. that really wiped out many of his rivals. so this is a real victory for him this moment in party congress. he has reached the apex of power. and now i think you know he has now that he has harnessed as much political capital as he can, we're going to see how much, you know, how much, you know, how capable he is as a leader in filling changes. >> rose: president trump is going to asia. >> yes. >> rose: on his way to beijing. ji xi jinping is talking about you know making this a giant celebration for donald trump in a sense.
north korea hangs over them. lots of complex they need to work about. do we know anything about how he feels about president trump? >> well, trump says he has a great relationship with xi, apparently xi says he has a great relationship with trump. the chinese are good at ceremony, they're good at flattery. and i think they will treat trump sumpiously. but i doubt trump will get much out of it. >> yes, and i am very much agree on that front. and i think xi's greatest fear before trump took the rains was not knowing the kind of person trump was. and i think the last, the last few months in american politics has amply shown gli that he really has nothing to fear with a president like trump. >> thank you for coming. >> thank you so much. >> thank you both. >> thank you.
we'll be right back, tom friedman is here. stay with us. tom friedman is here he is a columnist for "the new york times" and recipient of the pulitzer prize. he's best known for tackling big ideas and complicated issues. he is a self-confessed explanatory journalist. his goal is to translate from english to english. his latest new york times best sell certificate just out in paperback. it is called thank you for being late, and optimist guide to thriving in the age of acceleration. i'm pleased to have tom friedman back on this program. welcome. >> great to be with you. >> rose: can i start with the colume you wrote today, general mattis stand up to trump or he will drag you down. and then there was one you said, in march i wrote a colume in the form of a memo to serving defense james mathist, mcmooseer and john kelly, pike pompeo and rex tillerson. you go on to say that you are writing another letter now
although to mr. pompeo you think would not necessarily receive it in the advice that you wanted to give. >> what are you trying to say in this letter? >> what i am really trying to say is that of these five gentlemen who we, i thought would be really the key boundary setters for this administration, general mattis, secretary of defense, hr mcmaster, the national security advisor, pompeo, graduate, number one in his class in west point, cia direct harvard law, john kelly now chief of staff, former general also. and rex tillerson, i felt these guys would be able to build some kind of boundary around this guy and really constrain his behavior and tilt him in the right direction. unfortunately, you know, basically mcmaster doesn't seem to have built much of a relationship with the president from what we read. tillerson has kind of blown himself up. has had to explain why he wasn't cass traited, that wasn't a good sign if are you secretary of state to say i wasn't cass straighted by the president. >> rose: and joke about it. >> right, exactly.
john kelly we have seen what happened to him last week. he's been sullied by trump's ma task ta sizing ethical cancer. and pompeo, last week came out and said intelligence community determined that the russian meddling in our election had no impact on the election of reallo the dark side. >> rose: been polit sized. >> really polit sized. so really secretary of defense mattis as the last man standing. >> rose: and who is always probably the strongest. >> was the strongest and from the beginning never engaged in those sort of north korean-like scenes of dear leader are you so wonderful. and all i am really saying ask that i think that when are you the last man standing, it's not enough to just stand there.
that i think that the intervention we need most right now charlie is not in syria, it's not in afghanistan. i think it's with the president. >> rose: in ot val office. >> in the oval office. and i just think this thing is getting so off. a president starts his day tweeting against the gold star mother. we know the stories. everything you see every day. this is simply not presidential behavior. but what worries me most is that we're making big decisions. both about taking things apart and about initiating new things whether it is a tax bill or taking down nafta or tpt. all of this is being done without a take on the world it is all being done for i need a victory. health care, give me something to sign, okay. give me a tax bill to sign. you know, i need a bill to say i cut taxes. >> rose: i'm for this today and tomorrow i am against it. >> exactly, one day i'm for this compromise. there is no one waking up in the morning saying what world are we living in. what are the big trends in this
world. how do i align more my citizens with those trends empower them to take advantage and cushion the worse effects. you just have a sense of something utterly scatter shot. and all of this is happening without a crisis. that is we haven't actually had a crisis yet. all the cries es we've had have been self-induced by trump. imagine what happens when we have a real crisis. >> rose: like what. >> that we feel we have to take military action against north korea, that we have got to intervene show in the middle east, get dragged into something. god forbid some kind of ternl attack or an economic crisis, you know. but i worry about, we talked about this before. my friend-- likes to say there are two kinds of authority, moral and formal. the president has formal authority. he's the president but he has no moral authority. he lost all his moral authority and he has lost the moral authority of most of the people around him exset mattis. when the white house press secretary has to lecture
journalists saying you wouldn't want to question the authority of a marine four star general, would you? that means you have completely lost your moral authority and now all you can do is try to summon the formal authority of the man's uniform and that just doesn't work any more. and so i think all this is going down a really bad track. and we all know those of us in the news business it gets worse every week. the signs of it getting works as we saw this week, bob corker, jeff flake the senator from arizona announced he was bowing out and went out saying basically the president is indecent, dishonest man. we're seeing so many unusual things. >> rose: comparing him to joseph mccarthy and what had to happen, somebody will to stand up like joseph willson stood up to senator mccarthy. >> here is what i wish that corker and flake had done. that they had made that exact diagnosis and made and then said and that's why i'm running. i'm not going to let the bannons decide.
i may go down in flames but i'm going to fight these ideas. i will not just tell you how bad trump is i will run and fight for what i think are real conservative principles. this man is not a conservative. bannon is not a conservative. the things i learn covering the middle east, extremists go all the way and moderates tend to go away. that is what i feel we are seeing in the republican party. it's wonderful that you are critiquing trump. why not take it to the really meaningful. >> rose: are you suggesting the people, senator approximate, to secretary mattis and hr mcmasters. >> tillerson,. >> rose: that they go to the president and say unless you change we're leaving. >> right,. >> rose: and if we are leaving that the final. >> you can gov inwith your kids and sarah huckabee sanders and some of the other just-- no names. >> rose: but we are your last vestage of credibility. >> it is gone. they have been giving him cover. and what is it getting us. it seems it gets worse every week.
i really worry for them, their personal reputations. i think kelly really hurt himself, tilterson has hurt himself. some leaders in basketball, you do a lot of sport stuff. we know the best players make everyone around them better. >> that's right. >> and trump makes everyone around him worse. >> the interesting thing about all of this, is in a sense that if you know and-- no one believes trump will change. >> yeah. >> no one believes that. everyone who thinks that he is about to change, donald trump will say i was not elected to be any different than mi. >> right. >> rose: that will be argument that he makes. and he will constant leigh go back to his base and ask for their applause, to reconfirm the fact that he is doing exactly what he should be doing. and if you are listen to that applaud it's hard to say when somebody comes in, you are simply wrong. i have listened to my base and are you wrong. >> and my answer to that would be applause are one thing am will you get applause from 30% of the country no matter what you do as you yourself said, even if you shoot someone out
here on fifth avenue. question is what did you accomplish. because your base elected you not just to generate applause, i hope, but actually to accomplish things. and for that you need a forged compromise. >> rose: they asked you to change washington. >> to change them for the better. these are people who told us they voted for you because they were hurting. what have you done to make them hurt less? to make them thrive more? od for them.care, was thate >> his, the trump doctrine is obama built it, i broke it, you fix it. okay. obama built t i broke it, you fix it. no, no, what is-- he is always saying i'm waiting for congress to deliver something. what are your ideas? and something is what, and when republican and democratic congressman get together and senators, and reach a compromise which is the only way you can get anything done, then you run back to your base. so are you the president of your base, are you the president of the country. do you want to make a point or make a difference. >> rose: well, and then you have senator mitch mcconnell,
senate majority leader saying basically i'm trying to get a tax reform passed. that is what i am trying to do. this is a distraction. the president's conduct, the president's tweets, i don't care about i'm trying to get a bill-passed here, that is what i was elected by the people of kentucky to dosm paul ryan saying the same thing in the house. i'm trying to get legislation passed, that is what i came here to do. >> right. but again, what legislation. >> my house is on fire. >> in what context. >> and while my house is on fire. >> and this is, the reason i wrote this book charlie is to, this is not an artificial, i am trying to say if you want to think about the world you have to think what are the big trends in the world. and what is in our favor, what is works against us, how do we align ourselvings with the best and cushion the worst, if you say i'm here to cut taxes, why are we cutting taxes, who is it going to benefit, in what context are we doing it. that is what is completely missing from the debate, everyone is looking for a win, okay.
but a win for what, for whom, when and how. >> there is something else on the table that came out today, this motion that the clinton campaign may have funded the group that went out to create the dossier. >> yeah. >> does that bother you? >> yeah, i mean it doesn't surprise me. i mean politics is dirty. we foa donald trump kid met with someone who seemed to entice them by saying we can do the same with clinton but yeah, not something i would be particularly proud of. and something we certainly should find out about. >> here is the other problem. we talked about this at different places, you and i talked about this. how do you know what truth is in the existent world. are we setting different norms? this is what i thought in one of the more interesting speeches made was by george bush 43 bns yeah. >> who really without mentioning donald trup spoke to where he thinks the country is suffering. you knew he was talking about. >> oh, absolutely. >> but where the country was in terms of what used to be the form norms and the standards and
the references, you can't do that any more because they have been, those references, those standards, those norms, the credibility of the people who we have made credible. >> exactly. entrusted. >> entrusted. >> and the people who have been there to advise leaders if the leader has attacked their credibility. >> you know, look, if we can't agree that black is black and white is white. >> exactly. >> if we can't agree that an african-american congresswoman presided over the unveiling of a federal building and at that ceremony on tape she acknowledged republicans and democrats, she did not boast about herself but boasted about the building being named for two fbi officers killed in action. if we can't agree that that is on tape, that that is what she said and that what john kelly said she said is simply not true. and john kelly cannot come out and say i got that wrong.
>> i know. >> i still have a problem with her, the way she behaved but you got that wrong. where are we? where then black is not black, white is not white, blue is not blue and how can you build anything. >> i will ask you, you often have said to me the question you have to ask is not tomorrow but the day after tomorrow, a series of things. >> it's always i learned this covering the middle east it is all about the morning after. the morning after, i was just in london charlie. it was very interesting being there because you just have too be there for 24 hours to realize they're trying to do this breakfast, pull out of the european union and nobody has a clue what to do. okay. and so what do you see. what is the lesson you draw from that. to me that's what happens when a whole country follows someone, not a whole country, a majority of the country follows someone who has a policy that's just one paragraph and no second paragraph, brexit, we'll brexit,
get out and everything will be fine, and bore is johnson, we're just going to get out of the of the eu, it will be fine, more money, we had really no second paragraph. >> sovereignty back. >> all these big principles, will you feel-- turns out nobody had a plan at all. so if you want to know what bannon's ideas look like the morning after the morning after, study brexit, okay. when he tells you are a globalist, i'm a globalist. >> free trade, we're global, free trade, yada yada yada. >> okay, i'm going to accept that am but i will tell you w my globalism, i will tell you how i think it works. i will tell you why i think it can make more people better. exactly how. can i tell you how i think we should improve it and fix it and show you examples all over the world of my case. show me yours. show me a country thriving today that is disconnecting from a connected world, putting up walls, limiting immigration, show me that country is it north
korea? that is a good example. the closest one can i think of. so bannon has nothing for the morning after the morning after. and ladies and gentlemen, if you want to know what that looks like in the real world, stop over am london and look at what is going on there. they have no clue what to do. >> rose: let me turn to china too. china just had their 199 party congress. we saw a leader over there consolidate his own power, put his own people, did not put, nominate a successor suggesting he may win another term after this next five year term. but you once said, and will you have to remind me exactly what it was. i would like to be head of china for four days. >> right. >> rose: why did you say that. >> that was in the previous book. it was a chapter in the book where i would just like to be china for a day. >> rose: because. >> because our democracy is not working and therefore we have so paralyzed because we are so, i'm going to-- par tannized,
triballized and divided that we can't do anything big and hard. everything we need to do is big and hard, health care, tax reform, infrastructure. and big hard things can only be done together. and so what i said in the book is i don't really want to be china for a day, i would like to do what china does democratically, the way china does it auto gratically but the fact is they are getting stuff done. and how it will end, maybe it will all blow up, caveat, caveat for all of you who want to turn me into a china lover. i don't know what will happen, all i know is i see a country that is starting every day saying what world are we in. >> and they set emission standards for cars than we have. >> yeah. >> becoming the leading producer of alternative fuel. >> they are also becoming the world's first cashless country. so my chinese friends do have wallets any more. they just walk around with this. women done even car purses. i wrote quoted a chinese newspaper article how you can donate to a beggar okay, they
put qr codes in their bowls and you can wave your phone over it the story said. didn't see it myself but that is what you claim. you can buy potatoes from a farmer on the side of the road with your phone. one thing, why this is a really important thing, what worries me about this moment is that trump is a brain-eatk disease so that is that he sucks up all the oxygen in the room, we feel we have to write about him, so much, as a columnist. on the one hand i don't want to because i'm not learning anything when i wrote that colume today. i'm sort of emoting, expressing my concern. but the fact is a whole bunch of stuff is happening in the world. and i am worried that a whole generation of jowrnltists and columnists are going to wake up four years from now and god i hope i'm not one of them but i fear i could be and wake up and realize i didn't learn anything. i spent four years writing about trump. and meanwhile a really big thing happened in the world. and the really big thing that happened in the world was back in 2001 when we let china into
the world trade organization, really was our call in the send we thought china was going to reform and open. back thren it was all these reformers. and what happened was china reformed and closed. and they learned to use this to control their people, to listen to their people, to direct their people more efficiently. and obviously to innovate as well. and i think that is a huge challenge. because you know, ten cent and alibaba china's big tech caps could have their own cloud server in silicon valley. amazon and microsoft cannot. >> rose: in china. >> that is not on, folks. >> rose. >> a level playing field. >> you have other people made the point it is not a level playing field. >> some things are true even if donald trump believes them. so we need to keep those things. >> rose: to this final point, from my freed friedman memory machine. not in this book but previous books you used to make this analogy about how you looked at
china versus india. >> yeah. >> rose: and india had a long-term goal. >> whenever i went to india people would ask me about china, when i went to china people would ask me about india. >> rose: i bet they still do. >> if you think we compete those countries really compete. >> rose: tillerson just said we ought to pay a lot of attention to india. >> i finally developed an answer, i go to china and china is like a perfect six lane superhighway, perfectly paveed. all the lanes are divided, streat lamps, sidewalks and everyone is going 80 miles an hour. there is just one problem. down the road there is a speed bump. the speed bump is called political reform. when 1.3 billion people hit a speed bump, one of two things happen, the car jumps up, slams down, everyone says you okay, drives off. the other thing is the car jumps up, slams down all the wheels fall off. we don't know what will happen down that road. india, six lane superhighway, half the sidewalks aren't finished. most of the street lights are out, none of the lanes are
covered colored, but off in the distance, charlie t looks like it smooths out into a perfect six lane superhighway. is that a mirage or the owe-- oasis. these two giant countries have big question marks down the road. they are different ones but they are big ones. >> why did you call this book thank you for being late. >> it actually began. >> rose: version 2.0 with a new afterwards. >> i wrote an afterwards because it came out. we had aye conversation about the book two weeks after trump was elected. and so the book really, the tietd el comes from meeting people for breakfast in washington d.c. and every once in a while someone would come 10, 15 minutes late, sorry weather, traffic, subway, the dog ate my homework. one day one of them peter corsell an energy entrepreneur came and said sorry, weather, traffic, i said actually, peter, thank you for being late. because you are late i have actually been eavesdropping on their conversation. fascinating. i have been people watching the
lonnie. fantastic. and best of all i just ect connected two ideas have i been struggling with for a month. so thank you for being late. people got into it. they said well, you are welcome. because they understood i was actually giving them permission to pause, to slow down. and there is a great quote at the beginning he says when you press the pause button on a compute ter stops. but when you press the pause button on a human being, it starts. that is when it starts. >> a great quote. >> reflect, rethink, reimagine. and don't we need to be doing a lot of that now in what i call this age of acceleration. the other reason i called it that is what the book actually celebrates is everything old and slow. and the book is really, the under theme or underlying theme of the book is that in this world getting really fast and really connected, actually what matters most are all the things you cannot download. it's all the things you have to upload the old-fashioned way, good friend to good friend, good
teacher to good student, good minister to good flock, good government official to good citizen. good parent to good child. all those old time values. i think they actually matter more. because we're all interacting with each other so fast and without any boundaries and barriers any more that as a parent, you can't-- are you not going to be on your kid's shoulder on facebook, twirtd, whatnot. if you haven't built the internal software into your kid the old-fashioned way, you know, with those old time values, we have a real problem. and that is why, that is what i want to celebrate actually. >> so that is the other reason i called to thank you for being late. >> rose: the other thing that has been a passion of yours is global warming. does the u.s. withdraw from the paris accord, will it have the grave kenses we thought it would have or will the private sector and other places pick up and in a sense lessen the impact and
other countries will not abandon even though the united states says it will. >> it's a good question. let me tie it back to trump for a second. so you know the argument of the back is we are in the middle of three accelerations, one in climate change called mother nature. one in the market, globalization and the third and moores law technology. they're all look like hockey sticks. so let's just think about the news. and my argument, the front of the book is to understand this world today, this is from my friend lynn wellsy taught systems analysis, lynn says never think in the box. never think in the box. never think out of the box. lynn says you must think without a box. so get rid of the boxes. if you want to see the world whole, actually you have to meld what is going on in technology, what is going on in globalization n climate, all three together. >> the only thing i would add to that is what going on in biology. >> i will put that under mother nature, science or technology, really bio infomatics, whatnot.
but all three of those you have to meld. now let's talk about the news, the news two weeks ago had us wrapped up, the news was in niger. we discovered there a thousand american soldiers in niger and four of them tragically were killed in an ambush. so what is, i have to know a deumary for the years ofse i did living dangerously on niger. so what is the story? why are those troops there. because this took everyone by surprise. so the documentary we did, we started started in northern sen he gal, why there sth because there is a village in sen he gal is already at two degrees rise average temperature since the industrial revolution. so sen he gal has already hit the temperature limit that the paris agreement was meant to prevent. they are already at two degrees rise. they are heading for four. >> two degrees sent grade. >> so they are heading for four.
little rally off the chart so small scale agriculture is collapsing in places like northern sen i gal, niger, mali, chad, all of these places that is going on in one track, on another an incredible population explosion is going on in africa, nigeria will be the fourth largest country in the the world by 2050, bigger than us in niger average woman had 7 kids, most had 13, 14, two things. the climate is hammering the land and there are so many people the land can't sustain them. we go to these villages and what is happening? all the men are gone esch from 18-16 is gone trying to get into europe. how, they go to niger, come up through ogadeze where there is a human trafficking operation going on where every monday a 200 car caravan with 125 guys in the back of each jeep makes a bee line for libya because we
decap taited the regime in lib yavment we uncorked africa and through libya they spread out and try to get into europe. that is what is going on the meanwhile the competition overland has been opening for isis and al-qaeda. and they will come along and offer someone $50 a month. that's like a king's ransom now. so that's why you suddenly have these terrorists group emerging, all competing over both human trafficking and just resources, land. so now we come back to the trump administration. trump says we're going to help the french kus the french, i got a thousand guys, we're going to beat back those al-qaeda guys, that is what trump is doing with his left hand. what has he done with his right hand, eliminated all our family planning funding for foreign countries and at home, trying to cut all family planning funding. >> and he's basically, he is the knuckle head, that is the nice way of talking about scott pruitt who is unking are the epa, has basically banned the
study of climate change. so think about what we are doing. with his left hand he's sending troops to niger which are all dealing with a human tragedy and disorder, driven in great deal by dliem at-- climate and population, and since-- . >> rose: two things he turned his back on. >> two things he turned his back on. that is just flat out stupid that is not connecting the dots at all. that is what i mean, if you don't wake up in the morning and say what is going on in the world. how do we tie all these things togetherment boy cuz i don't want to send 10,000 troops there. but if we don't have a climate policy and a population policy, and a governance, helping these people govern, then all these countries there won't be enough troops to keep them back. and trump says he's going to build a wall. no, mr. president, is your wall going to be deeper and wider than the mediterranean because it sure hasn't kept these people out of europe, okay. and that rio grande is a little drinking fountain next to the
mediterranean. so you have to connect the dots. and he's not doing that. he is just saying i made you applaud. i took away-- i attacked planned parenthood. look at my base is applauding. i took away your climate change policiment look how the oil companies are applauding. and look at me, i send green berets to africa, to niger, real men send green berets, yay, donald, meanwhile none of it adds up. the whole thing is completely incomprehensible. and that is a traffesty. >> rose: bill clinton once said to me, he said what is the best example of a political intelligence. are you supposed to be an intelligent guy. he said it is the capacity to connect the dots, that is what it is, the capacity to connect. >> and in a more interdepend ent world that matters more than ever. because what happens when the world gets interdepend ent, that is one of the themes of the book that we have gone from an interconnected world to, by the globalization, what happened is you get a geo political
inversion, where first of all your friends friends can kill yr than your enemies f greek and italian banks go under, we will all feel it here in new york city. greece and italy, this rein nato, in the eu, they are allies. the other thing that happens is your rivals falling becomes por danger than your rivals rising so if china takes six more islands in the south kleina sea, couldn't care less. i will sleep like a baby f china loses 6% growth, whoa. this building will be half full. so the world's so much more interdepend ent now. and then you think you can come along and disconnect? from a connected world? and it's going to be better? okay, i will-- show me how. i know a am a globalist but show me how. >> rose: do you believe we're going through you a period of time right now in the history of the united staights in which people will look back and examine this and say how could they let that happen. >> i do worry. i worry a lot because one of
the-- . >> rose: one of the questions that people who oppose the president but who may very well believe that they should be in the role that they v you answered this in part, they say i stand between this president and what i think is a greater danger. and so i'm doing my country service by remaining here. on the other hand there are those who say you can only take that so far. and if enough people say no, if enough people resist, then perhaps can change. >> i'm in that second camp, that is what that colume saysk i done see you standing between anything. i see. >> rose: or prevening anything. >> i see it getting crazier and crazier and a lot of these things are long term. charlie when the record get this fast and interconnect, small errors in navigation have huge consequences. it's like when we were-- we need it go 500 miles, if we had a bad leader, we can get off track, bet back on track but when the world is flat, when are you in a
747 going 600 miles an hour and the pilot transposes two numbers in the navigation and suddenly you find yourself 10,000 miles off course, the pain of getting back on course will be really enormous. >> rose: this book is now in paper back, thank you for being late, vergses 2.0 with a new afterwards an optimist guide to thriving in the age of accelerations, tom friedman, thank you. >> always great to be with you. >> rose: pleasure to have you am thank you for joining us. see you next time. for more about this program and earlier episodes visessity us online at pbs.org and charlie rose.com. captioning sponsored by rose communications captioned by media access group at wgbh access.wgbh.org
>> pati narrates: >> ywhenever i travel,. i always look forward to meeting with my fellow women chefs and cooks from all over mexico. oaxaca is different. [crowd cheers] >> narrator (continues): women here are proud, passionate, powerful, and cooking is a shared experience that gives the food a whole other meaning. >> all these dishes are so important because they have been done for centuries >> narrator: today i'm joining the sisterhood and getting a taste of a traditional oaxacan celebration. in my kitchen, two recipes inspired by those incredible women. a rich mole coloradito. and a chunky and savory mashed potato cazuela. and one for the women who inspire me in my own family,