tv Amanpour on PBS PBS March 9, 2018 12:00am-12:30am PST
welcome to "amanpour" on pbs. tonight on international women's day, my conversation with two inspiring pie neeoneers for gen equality. from egypt to afghanistan, we hear from women throwing down the gauntlet in some of the toughest parts of the world to be a woman. >> look patriarchy in the eye and say, we will dismantle you, because this has been going on for too long. it's unjust and it's wrong and it must end. justice in the justice system. a shocking story of rape and the woman whose account was not believed. will the me too movement change all of that?
>> announcer: "amanpour" on pbs was made possible by the generous support of rosalinde p. walter. good evening, everyone, and welcome to the program. i'm christiane amanpour in london. let this moment sink in. it is international women's day. in the year of me too and time's up, movements that have seriously dented the patriarchy as never before. so there is much to celebrate. and yet, there is still so much to accomplish in getting women of the world into positions of power and authority. in ending systemic violence against women, and in paying women the same as men to do the same job. the me too name started in hollywood and it's moved to other industries and professions, as well. but what about women in the developing world? a piece of good news.
child marriage has significantly decreased in india and south asia. so that's the region we start today. with fawzia koofi, a member of the afghan parliament, and mona eltahawy, an american-egyptian activist and author of the book "headscarves and hymens: why the middle east needs a sexual revolution." welcome, ladies. welcome to the program on this international women's day. so, let me start with you, fawzia, there in kabul. this has been known, your country, as the worst place in the world for women. what is it like today, for you, and your fellow women and young girls? >> well, i guess things have changed a lot, comparing to before 2001, for woman in afghanistan. you know, in terms of education, in terms of political participation, et cetera. but still, the problem of violence against women and, of course, the trends of losing the
gains we have still remain a challenge for woman here. >> so you are a pioneer, you're a member of parliament. you just talked about violence. 87% of afghan women have experienced physical, sexual, or psychological violence during their lifetime. and you are trying to sponsor and enact, you know, a bill, a law to prevent this kind of thing. it isn't formally in law yet. do you think it will be? >> you know, christiane, it's always challenging all over the world, i guess, if you want to work for equality. if you want to work for women on human rights, and afghanistan is much more challenging. it's kind of putting your forehead in the stone every day. we fail to approve the law on violence against women in 2013. we still continue to struggle to make this law get approved by parliament, but it is not an easy thing to get something related to the woman approved by parliament, which not only, you
know, elite and open-minded people, but people who have a different understanding of religion. and they try to impose their own understanding on woman. so it becomes very challenging when there is a different interpretation of religion and islam, especially. and they try to impose that on woman. that's why i think we have still a long way to go when it comes to laws related to the woman. >> yeah, so let me move on to mona, then. because regarding that sort of religious aspect, mona, you're sitting there in new york, but you are egyptian and you were raised for a long time in saudi arabia. so you've seen the whole gamut. and you, like many people, you were very active during the arab spring, to see a wholesale new reality for women. how has it turned out for arab women? >> well, i think tunisia remains the best inspiration for me. because tunisia, as you know, christiane, was the first country to have a revolution in december of 2010.
and it inspired so many other countries, including my country of birth, egypt. and tunisia, last year, passed a revolutionary law to protect women from domestic violence, but also from what they call economic violence and emotional violence. and tunisia also, through that revolutionary bill, ended something called the mario rapist law, which unfortunately remains on the books. it's a colonial law that was imposed on tunisia by france when it occupied tunisia, and last year tunisia got it off the book, inspiring lebanon to remove a similar law and jordan. so i look to tunisia, because it also lifted a ban on muslim women marrying non-muslim men and it's also working to make inheritance between muslim men and muslim women equal, which i fully support, is considered very controversial. because the clerics in egypt have all spoken out against it. that's telling you the --
positive things that happened last year. but when we look at syria and libya, where the violence is much more obvious, syrian women are caught between the regime and the russians and the iran and also the so-called rebel groups. and when i look at my country of birth, egypt, where there's an encourage in sinai, that insurgency is usually portrayed as the military forces of abdel fattah el sisi, who himself used to be a general, and the insurgents in sinai. and we never hear about women, we never hear about the women in sisi's prisons, never hear about feminists who has have been prevented from travel and had their assets frozen. so again and again we see women falling through the cracks, even though women were side by side with men fighting against oppression of the stay. >> fawzia, as mona is talking about the dangers, and you have as well, what is your view of your president offering
unconditional talks with the taliban, to change the constitution or to open it up to reflect a new peace deal, to give them legitimacy as a political party, and they, of course, were the most anti-women group that we've seen in modern history. >> well, that was a very generous proposal by our president, to be honest. in many occasions, the women were not consulted, and it is very, i guess, kind of natural, unfortunately, when it comes to women inclusion in the peace process, women have not been involved in war, globally. but when it comes to their involvement in peace process, the perspective, the general perspective is that they will be included once the decisions are made. during taliban, particularly, but also before that and after that. but during taliban, as you rightly mentioned, women have
been deprived of basic rights. i was living in kabul during that time and i know what that means when you live under taliban regime. so i believe that women should be consulted and there is a fair and legitimate fear among women in afghanistan that we might lose some of the gains that we have. because if you open up the talks for peace and amendment of constitution, there are other articles that there are people who are studying to change, especially when it comes to kind of the positive discrimination for women, political participation that a lot of people in afghanistan oppose it when it comes to equality, article number 22 of afghan constitution state that afghan, both man and women, all the genders, have equal rights. and there are people who are sitting, watching the momentum to change that. and i guess to make such statement is easy, but to actually bring it to practice without making anybody lose anything would be a challenge. >> yes, and you're absolutely right. this idea that you've had progress, you've won your rights, and yet they're still at
risk and everybody has to be vigilant. i think even in the west, people believe that. because even though we have rights, there's still a massive disparity in enforcing those rights. mona, you have written a lot, recently, about me too and you have been very bold about how you've reacted, physically, against people who have even recently tried to sexually assault you. >> yes. yes, christiane. one of my favorite moments of the past few months was when i was sexually assaulted at a club, where i was dancing with my beloved, having a great night in montreal, canada, of all places. and a man sexually assaulted me. and i grabbed him and i punched him about 10 to 15 times, until he ran away from me. a lot of people asked, well, don't you think you were too violent? and my response, of course, was, this is self-defense. and i think what this particular moment, the me too moment reminds us is that this is one of many revolutionary moments. this isn't the first time that women have said, "me too," but
now we're asking, what can we do to make "me too" more than a hashtag? we don't want this to be a moment that is locked in about famous white hollywood actresses and what powerful white hollywood producers do to them. i want this to be a moment from all over the world. so i was very happy to see #churchtoo by christian women in the u.s. who were exposing sexual violence in their context. and as part of what i wanted in order to widen the space for muslim women, i began a movement called #mosquemetoo to encourage -- it was actually in support of a young pakistani woman who herself was inspired by me too and she wrote about being sexually assaulted in islam's holiest site in saudi arabia. so you're seeing women from different groups, which is what is absolutely necessary.
well talk about sexual assault, rights, is trying to reform and will allow women to drive. what kind of hope do you take from that? do you think it's real and meaningful? >> well, you know that saudi arabia is kind of followed by many people, many muslims around the world and i guess what they do in terms of freedom for women is basically a role model for many muslims around the world, especially in afghanistan, because it's a good judgment, it's a good justification for us, also, to use in our argument with some of these kind of religious clerics when they try to impose their own understanding of religion on us, on women. so i think it's a good step forward. but let me also mention here that afghanistan has been -- has
a long history of women participation. politically, socially, you know, through our history, we had women somehow participating in this society. it was only during taliban and the civil war that we have so much reversed. we've went back. and i think this kind of -- is kind of a dark spot in our history. now, from 2001, we have started again, everything from scratch. basically from scratch. i remember when i was doing the back-to-school campaign for girls to go to school, we were setting up tents for girls to go to school, because there were no schools, basically. now, of course, things have changed. 40% out of 11 million children that go to school are girls. these are huge progress. but if there is not assurance and if all the progress is fragile, then, of course, there is the worry. and of course, we do hear from our international partners, also, that we will not go back to 2001 or during taliban. we need to have that meaningful and practice. we need to have women in the negotiation table when there are
talks with taliban or with other groups. because sometimes they make the decision and then they say, well, the decisions were not important. i mean, we need to include women from the beginning, so that all of these concerns and worries are addressed. >> exactly. and we really do need to keep an eye on all of this from a women's perspective, from a human perspective. finally to you, mona. you have written a book with a very provocative title, "headscarves and hymens." you say the arab world needs a sexual revolution. what exactly do you mean by that? >> i mean by sexual revolution, the declaration that i own my body, and from that, everything that i fight for is a revolutionary act. when i fight against domestic violence, it's a revolutionary act. when i fight against female genital mutilation, it's a revolutionary act. when i fight against the
guardianship system in saudi arabia, which i think lies at the heart of the misogyny and patriarchy there, it's a revolutionary act. and when i say i own my body, it doesn't belong to the state or the home or the church or the mosque or the temple and it's my right to have sex with whomever i choose, with a man, with a woman, with whatever permutations. and with the hashtag, when i talk about the sexual revolution in the middle east and north africa, i'm also talking about the entire world. that's the part i happen to be from. i'm speaking you from new york. this moment is a revolutionary moment. there is this global rage that you will see, whether you're following tunisia or afghanistan or the united states. there is a global wave of women's rage. and women are saying, we are done.
and when i punched that man in the club, i am now 50 years old and i am shameless. i a no longer the teenager who was sexually assaulted during pilgrimage and froze and burst into tears and didn't know what to do because she was horrified by it. and when i started mosque me too and beat my assaulter, i heard from women all over the world with their own individual stories of rage. so i think this is a truly revolutionary moment in which each of us can say, i own my body and you cannot touch it wthout my consent, you cannot prevent me from exercising my rights, you know, guardianship or the sponsorship system, because we also must include, as i was saying, all women, including the domestic workers in saudi arabia and other countries of privilege. so let's take advantage of this global women's rage and tell patriarchy, look patriarchy in the eye and say, we will dismantle you. because this has been going on for too long. it's unjust and it's wrong and it must end. >> fantastic perspective from two really important parts of the world. fawzia koofi there in kabul, mona eltahawy in new york. thank you very much for joining
me on this international women's day. and of course, me too highlights the importance of listening to women. but as the book, "a false report" shows, even in violent and unambiguous cases of rape, some victims are met not only with doubt, but downright suspicion. "a false report" shows the extraordinary story of marie. she's a young woman who was raped at knifepoint and then she was charged with lying about it. her life spiraled downwards until agent stacy galbraith helped uncover the truth. agent galbraith joins me now with the book's co-author, ken armstrong. thank you both for joining us on this day. let me start with you, ken. you have written this amazing book called "false report." we're in the me too movement, and if anything, it's about finally listening to women when they complain about this kind of victimhood. why are they still not being listened to in these cases? >> that is, i think, the question of the moment. and marie's case in washington
exemplifies that very problem. at the heart of the me too movement is this frustration with not being heard, with not being listened to. marie's case exemplifies that in the most tragic way possible. if marie wasn't believed, a woman who was raped at knifepoint by a stranger, a woman who had bruises on her wrists, who went to the hospital, who cooperated with police each step of the way, if she wasn't believed, how much faith can others have when they come forward? >> well, one of the complicating factors, ken, is that she confessed and then recanted it and then confessed. and of course, there was all sorts of pressure that she felt she was under during the police investigation and interview. describe how a victim, to whom something actually did happen,
then recants her explanation. >> it's difficult to believe. and i think it's difficult in some ways to understand. particularly because in marie's case, this all happened within one week of her having been raped. t what happened is that a day after she was raped, a foster mother in her life called police and said she had concerns about marie's credibility. at that moment, the investigation pivoted and the detectives began treating marie as a suspect rather than as a victim. they then interrogated her rather than interviewing her and under the pressure of that interrogation, she took her story back. you know, the way she viewed it, it was the easiest way out of an untenable situation. once that happened, the detectives, in essence, stopped investigating. >> so now we pivot to you, stacy galbraith, detective there in colorado. just explain to me how you come into this amazing story and how you pretty much figured out who
the rapist was. the story's incredible. >> my case that i worked on in golden, colorado, was this rapist's last-known victim. so when we got the case, we started investigating. immediately, you know, started reaching out to partners in the metro area and was able to find a case out of westminster, colorado. so we started meeting regularly and putting our heads together and rather quickly were able to come up with the suspect in this case. >> and then what happened to marie and what happened to the person who you discovered actually was her rapist? >> well, we reached out to the washington department and washington handled the case with marie. he, you know, was prosecuted in colorado as well as washington.
so i've talked with marie, one time on the phone since all of this has happened. and she's, you know, very appreciative. and as far as what's happened to the suspect, in case he's still in custody in department of corrections. >> it seems like standard operating procedure that you would share information between districts and different areas on these crime cases. is it standard operating procedure, or is what you did kind of, you know, not standard operating procedure? >> well, it should be standard operating procedure. it's just a matter of access to a multitude of avenues to reach the right detective, the right
person who investigated the case. you know, we have crime computers that we can communicate information through. this particular reach out was through e-mail, a vast group of investigators that i was able to get the information to. >> ken armstrong, it kind of gives you chills. i don't know whether it gives you chills to think that that might not have happened. and marie may still have been disbelieved. and she may still have been being penalized and the guy may still be out there as a serial rapist. what do you think about the police investigation that stacy was part of, the collaboration, and what was the rapist banking on? was he also trying to game the system? >> chilling is the right word. and i've thought about that often. and in terms of mark o'leary, yes, he studied police practices. he even had a book, you know, "the rape investigation handbook." and he knew that at times police did not share information. so he made sure to commit his crimes in different
jurisdictions each time, assuming that that would make it less likely that he would ever be caught. and i can tell you in washington, that is, indeed what happened. he raped two women in washington two months apart in two different suburbs of washington. and there were striking parallels between the two cases and even though the police were aware of those similarities, they never wound up pooling resources and investigating the cases jointly. >> so what did the police make reparations to her? was there anybody fired? was there a, you know, a sort of a reorganization of how you learn from it. they apologized to marie personally. not just from the head of the department, but the lead detective in this case. he met with marie personally and apologized.
and marie, she is remarkable. she not only is remarkable for her perseverance, but also for her ability to forgive. the department has taken steps to learn from this. they have more advanced training now on what trauma looks like. they have more protocols in place for what circumstances under which they're allowed to doubt a victim's account. and in terms of if they ever file charges, they now have more hurdles they have to clear. >> and agent galbraith, do you think that the fact that you're a woman, detective, played any part in you believing her, maybe more than the other detectives who interviewed her? and actually gave you this impetus to collaborate, share information, and try to, you know, widen the net around this mark o'leary? >> well, i think we have a lot of capable male sex crimes
detectives, but as a female, it may be easier to open up to, say, a female detective or interviewer, to some degree. but, you know, the males are trained the same as the females are. but we tend to interact with one another slightly differently. and if we have a female sex and just to end, it sus a maner apparently seems that in the united states, only one-fifth of women contact the police after they have been raped. so agent galbraith, if you had to sum up, what do you hope the future brings in these cases? >> well, i hope that we in law enforcement can set aside any biases or anything, you know, we have preconceived and just listen to the victims. men, women, children that are coming to report crimes. it's not on us to, you know, judge them on truth or that
they're not telling the truth at that moment. it's our duty to listen to them and investigate from there. >> agent galbraith in colorado and ken armstrong in seattle, thank you so much for joining us this evening. extraordinary and thoughtful, women and men working to make people's lives better. and we continue our streak of women making a difference in our show tomorrow. as we go back to hollywood history and the life of actress and secret inventor, hedy lamarr. plus, one of the most successful female singers of our time and a committed campaigner for gender justice, annie lennox. when i interviewed her here in the studio, i put her on the spot by asking her to belt out a tune. here's a sneak peek. ♪ well, there was a time ♪ when they used to say ♪ that behind every great man,
there had to be a great woman ♪ ♪ well, in these times of change, you know that it's no longer true ♪ a cappella rendition of her legendary feminist anthem, "sisters." and you can see my full conversation and the rest of that song with annie lennox on tomorrow's program. and that is it for tonight. thanks for watching "amanpour" on pbs and join us again tomorrow night. "amanpour" on pbs was made possible by the generous support of rosalind p. walter. >> announc
>> you are watching "beyond 100 days" on pbs. the president is showing his metal amid widespread concern in congress about tariffs on steel and aluminum. the president is in a hurry to put these tariffs in place ahead of a visit this weekend to the state that helped him to the white house. the keystone state of pennsylvania. >> have to be very fair, be very flexible. if we're going to protect the american worker. >> what about the other trump state of wisconsin where they make the harley davidson?