tv Amanpour Company PBS November 10, 2018 12:00am-1:01am PST
hello, everyone and welcome to "amanpour & co." here is what's coming up. >> deep in republican country, home to president trump's favorite golf course, in new jersey district sends a democrat to washington for the first time in almost 40 years. and i'll speak with the congressman elect. tom malennousky. then wall street helped create the financial meltdown. ten years later trying to be part of the solution. mime exclusive interview with jamie timen. a exclusive with justin trudeau. up north in prime minister prime
minister trudeau blazed that trail. >> it's fake news. it's fake news. >> finally there is nothing new about fake news. author and cultural critic kurt anderson on america as fantasyland. uniworld is a proud sponsor of "amanpour & co." when bea tollman founded a collection of boutique hotels, she had bigger dreams, and those dreams were on the water -- a river, specifically -- multiple rivers that would one day be home to uniworld river cruises and their floating boutique hotels. today that dream sets sail in europe, asia, india, egypt, and more. bookings available through your travel agent. for more information, visit uniworld.com. >> additional support has been provided by rosalind p. walter, bernard and irene schwartz, sue and edgar wachenheim iii, the cheryl and philip milstein
family, seaton melvin appear judy and joshing westin and by contributions to your pbs station from viewers like you. thank you. welcome to the program everyone. i'm christiane amanpour in new york. now tuesday's midterm election apparently isn't over yet. arizona, georgia and florida are still counting. as candidates and their lawyers are engaged in hand to hand combat over every untallied vote. but one thing is clear. the blue wave did wash over the house. democrats won more seats than at any time since 1974 after watergate. so, how did they flip the house? let's look at one district, new jersey's 7th where exact tom malennousky won after almost 40 years of republican control. malennousky a veteran human rights active it and a former state department official. but rather than against
president trump on grimes or his rather than ties, malennousky focused on health care. and republicans scorched earth campaign against the affordable care act. the strategy worked for him in new jersey and for candidates in republican districts all around the country. helping exacts pick up at least 30 seats and still counting. as leader nancy pelosi so oft. says, democrats don't agonize we organize. tom malennousky was born in communist poland in the cold war. he worked for presidents clinton and obama and he is headed back to washington as congressman elect. welcome to the program. >> thank you. >> quite a story. >> well it's been quit a year. >> quite a year. you've been campaigning for a year. i guess let's go right to the heart of it. you can't really move around the country without hearing people on both sides of the aisle wherever they are talking about president trump. and yet leader pelosi hoped,
instructed hoped that candidates would not focus on the daily trump, would not get personal, would not get out of the box and sort of defuse the message there. >> that's right. and that doesn't mean he wasn't a factor. everybody in my district knew what was happening in washington and the craziness and the crack pot conspiracy theories. but i didn't need to remind them of that until the very end. this campaign was mostly run on health care, run on protecting kids from gun violence. building infrastructure in my state, in new jersey. i think the last couple of weeks i think trump inserted himself into the campaign in way that is were terrible for the country buts are bad for his party. >> were you all surprised about that? i mean some have said with all the post game analysis that the republicans in a way handed you all this fantastic smu, health care on a plate or the economy for instance.
they didn't focus on the flourishing immigration. it was immigration, immigration, immigration. >> it was fear, demonization and conspiracy theories. in a district like mine that didn't play well. especially after the shootings in the pittsburgh synagogue because we could link very clearly the president's words to one of the worst acts of violence in religious violence, hateful violence in american history. and our positive message on practical issues like health care, infrastructure, gun violence, the economy, contrasted with fear, was very advantageous for us. >> i want to play something that maybe speaker certainly leader pelosi said to me in september. because a lot of people said, well, you know, the democrats don't really have a message to complete with make america great again. there is no slogan no clear strategy but this is what she laid out in sfleept what we're about in our campaign is that we are for the people lower health
care costs, lowering prescription drug prices, for raising paychecks, increasing -- lower health care costs, increasing paychecks building the infrastructure of america and cleaning up government to make sure people understand that the people's interests not the special interests are served here. and in the united states capital >> so there she was laying out a vega, one that is a winning strategy. explain to me, to our viewers how it worked for you in a republican-controlled district as we said the 37 years your republican opponents held that district. >> yes a republican-controlled district full of reasonable, sensib sensible pragmatic people mo couldn't understand the one thing the republican congress was to pass a massive the corporate bankrupt. adding $2 trillion to the national debt while refusing to fund bridges and tunnels and roads in the state of new jersey and doing nothing about rising
health care costs, doing nothing about the massacre after massacre after massacre we have seen in our country's schools. those aren't partisan issues when you get down to it in a voters districts like mine. they want government to work for them. >> i'm curious. because, the figures show the economy is growing, economy is doing well. unemployment at historic lows. it's not just the stock market rallying. it's main street as well, i think. why nondidn't the tax cuts trickle down to people in your republican districts. >> well trickle down doesn't work so well. had it been trickle up, a middle class tax cut rather than a tax cut in which most of the money went to people in the top income bracket and to lower the correspondent tax rate to 21%, i think more people would have liked it. and for states like new jersey there was a very particular ey took away the did he duct
ability of our high state and local taxes, property taxes. middle income home owners in my district got screw bid that bill. >> look, i describe you as what you are. a veteran of human rights campaigns, a veterans of the national security picture. you work for two democratic presidents. you've been in washington but not as an elected official. i mean, now you o there as congressman elect. it mufbl a disconnect for you to go from the 30,000-foot big all encompassing international issues to focusing on health care at home. and there were veterans who ran and one. cia analysts who ran and won. women who ran and won all in the purpose willy swingy kind of states. give us the big picture how everybody was so disciplined to focus on the sharp pointy edge of that health care debate. >> that's a big issue. it's about the future of this country. it's about an individual person in my congressional district who
has a preexisting condition and is worried about whether they're going to be covered in the future. but it's also about whether you are going to bankrupt america with high health care costs. and as somebody who spent a career fighting for my country, for what it stands for and what truly makes it great, that's an important issue to me. >> and what do you make of the republicans, including president trump who has been saying just about every minute since the elections preexisting conditions, preexisting condition, preexisting we are keeping the preexisting condition even as we want to repeal the rest of the affordable care act. >> it was one of the most blatant lies in the campaign if not the most blatant lie. and the voters didn't know it. they knew the republicaning spent years trying to eliminate coverage for preexisting conditions. words wouldn't erase the record. >> there were obviously a lot of issues that matter very much to people living ordinary daily lives. you mentioned the massacres we have seen and just a couple of days ago in a night club in
california after it happened in a synagogue in pittsburgh. and on and on and on that it's become just a horrible aspect of daily life here in the united states. >> but. >> but what can you do about it when you get to congress? because we see that some two dozen candidates mo ran with strong spoerpt support from the nra lost however 88 candidates who had strong you know support from the nra won. so this is -- yeah. >> yeah, so christiane, even today in a republican house of representatives we have the votes to pass universal background checks for gun purchases. why doesn't it happen? because are because the leadership, the speaker, and other leaders in the -- on the republican side have been too cowardly or complicit to even allow a vote on the floor of the house of representatives. that's going to change in a couple of months. we are going to pass that. we are going to pass legislation
on hvg costs. we are going to pass legislation on infrastructure. we are going to pass legislation to fight corruption and foreign flauns in our politics. the real question is what will the president and the republican senate do? if they're willing to work with us on those issues which have huge bipartisan support among the american people we're going to be very busy working together. and if they don't, well we're going to have a lot of time on our hands to do things they might not like us to do. >> they might like us to do. could there be an investigatory process the house will launch? you know that many have asked what would happen if the house flipped? and all the investigative committees and all the rest would start pulling threads out of the trump family, trump administration, tax returns all the other such things. is that what the house plans to do? are you going on the offensive? the house has all kind of powers. the charge we have from the voters is to legislate before we
investigate. legislation not investigation. because they want us to get things done for the american people. but, again, that requires the senate and the president to work with us. they don't agree with us on everything. they have to compromise. they have to allow legislation to go forward. if they don't do that then there is probably left for us to do but subpoenas and investigation and all the things that they don't like. so i think we have a lot of leverage to dman the kind of action that americans want and we'll see how the president responds. >> and i mentioned of course your long -- your long experience in the human rights field. one of the most appalling issues is the kingdom of saudi arabia, the long history of human rights violations but of course coming to a head with the zpiekable murder of our colleague jamaal
khashoggi. >> there is going to be more hearings and oversight. congress has powers it hasn't used on arms sales. using the magnitsky act which i helped to get passed in my past life. >> sanctions. >> congress mass a voice it hasn't used on american foreign policy. we need to use that voice not just on saudi arabia but globally to cmo the world that the heart and soul of america has not changed. >> are you worried about the firing of jeff sessions, the appointing as acting ag matthew whitaker who the president today says he doesn't know and the mueller investigation, the integrity of the ongoing mueller investigation. >> there is -- there are few things more important to a democracy than maintaining the independence of our highest law enforcement institutions. i am absolutely militant about the congress protecting the independence and integrity of the justice department of the fbi, of the mueller investigation. i'm not -- i don't think
democrats should be screaming about impeachment. we should allow the institutions to function. but we have to protect the institutions from political interference. >> do you think at the white house they are thinking this is a chance to reset or not? >> or do you think the same -- do you expect to see the same kind of direction in leadership from the administration. >> two years into this administration i think it's a fantasy to think that we can plead with president trump to be a different kind of leader. what we can do is use the voice of the united states congress to show the world that the united states is not that, that we have not gone completely mad. >> tom malennousky congressman elect thank you very much. >> with congress in democratic hands and the senate still in republican hands, gop insiders at least some wonder whether in fact they might have staved off divided government with with a more winning message as we've been talking about. for instance, if president trump had chose ton focus on the flourishing economy instead of
running so hard on immigration. a chairman of jp morgan chase. jamie dime isn't a leading player on the american economic scene and in an exclusive interview he tells me as he looks ahead into the future he sees no imminent threat of recession around the corner. when i spoke with dimon he was in the parisian suburb of one of the poorest suburbing in the french capital where the bank is injecting $30 million to spark economic growth modelled on similar americans in american cities. ten years after the global economic meltdown we talked about the correspondent world's responsibility to literally share the wealth. jamie dimon welcome to the program. >> christiane thrilled to be here. >> so i was really struck by the way you are framing your initiative in this suburb. you wrote an op-ed talking about business and responsibility, you know, after world war i.
and now you are trying to do your bit for certain underprivileged communities. so what exactly do you intend to change in in neighborhood, one of the most underprivileged parts of paris. >> we've been in france for 150 years. always helped to build up the french economy. bau but it's completely obvious to most people that parts of society are left behind. and there are a lot of ways to fix and things needing to be done. but one thing needs to be done and a great lesson we learned from detroit is work at the local level with a group called the dpan onto train kids to get jobs. you go the to work with civic community, business and government working together can actually solve of society's problems. >> tell me about specifically what and how specifically can mpanion basically does 10,000 kids a year. 95% get jobs. our money is meant to accelerate
it. we find great partnering a and figure out what to do but the acceleration is they think with a little bit of money to auto mate some of the training to put it online that they can do 20,000 kids a year. all the kids are local, making furniture, other kind of manufacturing work with their hands. but the other thing is the local businesses offer them jobs. there are a bunch of kids i met five. two or three starting their own companies making furniture. in lifts up society. in neighborhood like a lot of neighborhoods in big cities around the world haves a common prom. neighborhoods left behind. the unemployment rate twice here. the poverty level 40%. go to the belly of the base figure out what td to the lift up society a lot of companies do it. but companies can do more now. >> how do you feel the project has shone results in places like detroit and other towns that you have target the in the united states? >> so trait a a perfect example. usually jp morgan we go in a
little philanthropy and affordable housing. but we saw a wonderful mayor, a great governor talking about the problems of detroit. the problems are sanitation, getting an ambulance out quick, turning on lights, needing more jobs, better education things like apprenticeship type education there. a team of people that i the one mo runs social responsibility. we send out 50 people to talk to civic society, the mayor, the governor what do you need to accelerate? we decided to make ma sustained effort. $1,500 million over five years. affordable housing that's up our alley. we put in a layer. they had a bunch of places needing money and with we sent in our own peel called the service corpse training them how to run it better and efficient. we started the entrepreneur of color fun. here is not entrepreneur of colors. but the same concept. entrepreneurs of color weren't getting the access to capital
they get. we did it. we are doing it in america and maybe around the world. this is bringing opportunity and jobs to neighborhoods in order to grow wealth. >> obviously detroit was one of the famous american cities that seemed to fall off the map in the post manufacturing age. in that city. and this neighborhood in par sis also an underprivileged part we can't escape the fact that in paris there had been over the 2015, 2016 period a spate of terrorism people trying to figure out what was going on, were people alienated? did people not have the where with alin society? i guess if you are trying to help these cities what do you get out of it? why is it important for jp morgan to do in. >> jp morgan we have been here 50 years. operate in 00 countries around the world and 2,000 large and small cities. and stuff like that. we have to be strong enough to be there in good times and bad times which we have been for everybody. particular will i in bad times can you continue to finance the
economy even when a lot of people are not financing the economy. that's been a main mission aulgs. this is kind of like if you said what can you do in addition to that and get more focused to help grow the economies? i think there are serious issues. you go around the world society isn't working and you see it with populism et cetera if we dent attack the issues. government can't do it itself. 85% of the jobs are generally in the private sector. the companies know the training they need. they have to train the trainers sometimes. and honestly if we do a good job and all do a good job society will be better off. for more families less drugs. more felons can get jobs. more kids get to school. there is real opportunity. when you see the populism you have to ask the question there are legitimate complaints. swaths of society left behind. angry about it. and i think all of us have a vested interest in making communities better. >> i want to get to that in a little bit. but first i want to ask you this.
clearly over the last couple of years the economy has been doing well. the u.s. economy is surging. but niepow we hear all sorts of warning signs from various -- various quarter nas potentially a recession is around the corner. let me read you a couple of things. manufacturing activity has stalled for the first time in two years. business investment is laggardly. worker productivity a bit sluggish all these things were declared at a recent conference on all of this. my questions to you, what is your analysis? do you believe that a recession is around the corner? so these are important things. sentiment changes by the day. but if you look at the big picture, president u.s. economy grew 20% over ten years. it should have been should have been 40%. it's important we tri to figure out why it was so little and a lot of it is because skills, infrastructure, things like that. so the american economy is still doing quite well. and it may well be accelerating. unemployment is going to hit probably a post wormed war low
in the next 12 months pop companies are spending more. sentiment and consumer confidence at all time records. manufacturing is down off the top but still growing and still expanding. you actually have a very strong using concerns.there that are . sometimes legitimately brexit, italy, the global reversal of qe. potential trade skirmishes and war florida affect confidence and stuff like that. there will be another recession it doesn't mean it has to be early in 2019. it may be 2020 or 2021. obviously you have to be prepared for that. obviously you hope the policy makers when that happens manage it in ways it's at least damaging to the economy. >> can i ask you again? because, you know, you ac knowledge that a lot of people were angry about the financial crash. a lot of people pointed fingers at wall street. and a lot of people felt that there was not a accountability
and that they still have not fully recovered from the great recession. so i just want to play a little bit of a sound bite from an interview i did with paul krugman on this issue last month and want to get your vow. >> it was necessary to remedy the financial system. it was not clear it was necessary to rescue the bankers. and the way it was structured was one that did not- selmer we didn't prosecute any. and there were people who could have been prosecuted. but we also didn't make sure that the upside of the rescue was going to go to taxpayers. this was an argument. you couldn't -- you couldn't worry too much about finesse bus things were on the edge. but morp could have been done. >> jamie dimon, i'm curious as to your reaction to that but particularly i want to ask you because you have been quoted as saying that you recognize that people were hurt by the recession and angry with banks for engaging in the risky
mortgage lending practices that triggered that recession. i mean, what do you feel about it now? and do you still understand people's feelings? and i guess what can you do about it. >> so we had a great recession. and i think it's fair that people look at it and say who cause to do wasn't my fault. generally look at wall street and government. big companies. that's generally accurate. people have the right to be angry because it was terrible. having said that you got to rook at what do you want to do to fix the problems? you need a healthy bank. jp morgan did not need government help by the way. but you need a healthy banking system to finance the economy. i listen to paul crull krugman. i think if people broke the law they should go to jail. honestly. i would just take that off the table. but you need a healthiy banking system. i like to look forward. what is it we need to do to have things get better. i understand the anger from the past. i understand people's frustration. that isn't the exclusion. the solution is jobs skills,
affordable housing giving felons a path to work. reduce opioid crisis, education very young to prenticeship those are things nicking the problem. we tried in the great recession to support everybody. you know, we bear steerns pan we helped unwind lehman berries. we bought wamu after lehman. we lend we forgive close to $100 billion of interest and payments on mortgages. you can talk to companies they'll tell you had it not been for jp morgan we wouldn't survive. we're going to be there through thick or thin all the time and try to do our part. and this is a huge effort. in type of thing is important for companies to participate. because the biggest legitimate complaint is all these folks left behind it's part of what causing populism. it's legitimate populism, legislate milt anger. if you grow up and you don't have $400 in a rainy day fund or
40 fours or $400 in rainy day fund or the bridges are terrible you have anger. we should do what america used to do. roll up sleeves look at the problems. analyze them come to solutions as opposed to to continuing to point fingers at various segments like -- solely caused all these issues >> you talk about the populism and the anger that has erupted from this past ten years what do you make of president trump? this was considered a populist wave. he calls himself a nationalist, certainly an economic nationalist. you believe he should get credit for the surging economy i think. are you surprised that he did not use that economy and the results as his closing arguments during in campaign stretch. >> yeah, first about populism. if you mean -- when people say populism -- one word has a lot of connotations. if you mean demagoguery i don't like it. if you mean people are upset
because they are left behind. i think it's legitimate. injury upping there are meth it issues immigration, culture, opportunity. half the kids in the united states and inner cities schools don't graduate. that is like a disgrace. we should ringing the alarm bell on that. i give the president credit because we were growing at 2% and now it's 3%. i do think some of that was around tax reform, probusiness sentiment, reasonable reductions in bureaucratic regulations i'm not talking about regulation we need and that helped the kmae. president obama could do those things too and he didn't. i look at that and say no i agree with everything the president says or does. i strongly don't. we've been public about that. but, again, if we don't get the good policies in will continue to get worse. i mentioned -- we mentioned inner city schools and ght years and in america today it takes 12 years to get the permits to build a bridge. if i remember correctly 30 to 40% of brinls are d.
people are going to die because the infrastructure is not right. it hurts the economy. there are solutions to all let problems if you figure it out work together analyze it and have the can do american attitude of build, build, build fix the problems attack them head on. >> i'd ask you what would you urge the president to do in post midterm to work together? because there seems to be little working together even on the no brainer issues of infrastructure as you point out? but i guess i need to also ask you, you clear have issues with the president. you opposed some things. you approve of other things. you did say a while back that you could take him on that you're smarter than him and that launched, you know, a furious fuselage from him on twitter and you sort of retreated what he is going on. >> what i said is i wish i hadn't said it. i don't want to be involved in the macho tit-for-tat with anybody. i want to be sowers about policy. i regret having said that was me acting like a child. i regret that.
but to me -- take infrastructure. why don't you all pass a law- i agree partisan pliks is stopping some of the solution. but infrastructure we all agree with. we need roads, bridges, tunnels, we neared the airports upgraded we need that stuff. congress should pass a law that city state, federal bureaucrats have two years to approve something. i gather that's the amount of time in canada and germany. that is common. it may cost more money. but right now there are a lot of reports it actually costs more money not to improve infrastructure than it would to improve infrastructure. >> so let's talk about small business people. let's talk about farmers. let's talk about all the people that president trump says that he wants to help. and now let's put it in the context of tariffs and trade wars. so i guess i want to ask you u think that will all could or benefit america or hurt voters and workers? but i want to put it in the context of canada. our poppy harlow interviewed
prime minister trudeau and asked him about the you know trump's tariffs on steel on the rest and how they might have brought him to the table on renegotiating nafta. this is the exchange. and we'll talk about it. >> the tariffs are actually hurting american businesses. american workers are losing their jobs because of the steel and aluminum tariffs. and we're going to tint to make arguments based on facts, not based on -- on emotions or insults. >> okay. so the point about tariffs, the president said in the rose garden when he announced this deal. quote without tariffs we wouldn't be talking about a deal. is he right? did tariffs force canada's hand. >> on the contrary. we have been open from the very beginning to negotiate a new and modernized nafta. it's one of those things we recognize that a 25-year-old trade deal always has ways to update for a digital economy for modern expectations and we were able to do that. >> i want not the case that
there were no tariffs you would not. >> we were always willing to sit down and negotiate and we have. >> i wonder what you make of that? do you believe that the president was effective in using tariffs to force a renegotiation? who do you think won and lost? most importantly, are tariffs whether against canada or china the smart way to encourage economic change. >> yeah, so the business community in general -- i'm the chairman of the business round table but i think it's true for the came ber of commerce and a lot of groups doesn't think tariffs are the right way to go about it. that doesn't mean -- that don't mean there weren't serious issues. there were. i was greatly in favor of ep mexico and canada. we are lucky to have neighbors like that we have not had a war since 1948. mexico is a new dpkz. we should be applauding them and helping them. but let's ut put nafta ape canada and mexico behind us it's the not the critical issue. i'm grateful the president did a korean deal and now talking to
japan and europe but there are serious, serious issues in china. the issues need to be faced. we're happy the president is doing it. you could do it in a back room. you know, if the president folks say tariffs are bringing people to the table. maybe that's true. i don't know. i would prefer not to do that that creates nationalism, bad responses and hurts sentiment. i completely understand those hurt by tariffs are not happy. but there are a lot of people making them change supply lines et cetera. serious issues. i would prefer private negotiations. but i hope the president's methods work particularly with china. >> everybody looks at the china tried war because it doesn't just affect america and china but the rest of the world. are you concerned? i mean, do you think it's going to accelerate this trade war. >> i really don't know. you know the president is going to meet president xi november 20th. i think it might be important. if they don't make any progress i would speck the american government will raise tariffs 500 billion of chinese imports
to some number 20% or 25%. i think the -- i think that will hurt global growth. not just because of the direct effect of tariffs but it's kind of the large indirect effects around foreign direct investment, supply lines people holding back on making investments. slightly higher inflation which will be in the headlines all the time. so, you know, i carb shall can it's not the way i would go about negotiating it. but i hope the methods work. but process it doesn't i do think this will offset some of the growth you have seen in the united states. >> i wanted to ask you about saudi arabia. because of the murder of our colleag jamaal chashfy and the investment in saudi arabia. you were one of the major businesses banks who pulled out of the davos in the desert. later you said you accomplished nothing by dropping out of the prince's investment conference and your bank continues to
expect to pursue business in the kingdom. i'm curious what you peen by that. >> i think it was a bad choice of words. i think it was important not to stand on stage at this investment conference in any way looking like condoning what may have happened there. i don't know all the facts. and you probably know more than i do. and eventually i assume the american government will take actions. and of course that's -- we think they should. we think there was a serious -- in this happened it's a serious thing and should be taken seriously. we're there for the people of the country. we'd like to see them modernize and do well and we'd like to help in the process. whatever the government decides -- the american governments decides. but you can't just as a company go in and out -- >> and i guess finally because you are in paris, what do you make of president m. acron effort to jump start france in the way it's been lagging behind the last several
years. duping they're going to work? do you sympathize with the pressure he is under from his government, from the opposition, and from some people. >> you have seen around the world bad governments and the outcome. you saw in argentina. venezuela. after brexit we were afraid what happened to europe pull apart, together then you have a man like president macron elect pd. he tells the truth says the same to everybody. and he focuses on reform that will help the citizens of france. and he is dead right about it. he is strong, smart. and if you want to develop a country you can be -- you could do a lot of things that simply don't work but labor reform, having entrepreneurs, having healthy financial system, creating jobs, if the president of france goes around speaking to business leaders he wants us to come here but he says help me lift up my society. he wants to do this to help all of society and in fact his minister of the interior was at the thing -- at the place we did the 10,000 jobs, 20,000 jobs. i completely applaud what he is
doing. politics is tough. and people want to see immediate results. and sometimes you don't get immediate results. but he is a shining star out there. >> and i guess just finally, finally since you mentioned brexit you had said that potentially four to 6,000 jobs could move. and now there seems to be a 95 peppers, you know, completion of in brexit deal. what do you plan in terms of your employees and your operation in the uk? >> yeah, so said zero to 4,000. we are ready for hard brexit. it would be err possible i can't finance my european disperse the day after hard brexit that entails maybe 300 people thaeps not the issue. that's not the issue. i think it's a huge mistake. the issue is whafrp gets negotiated, that can change that dramatically. we just don't know. we're a cork in the ocean. we simply have to abide by the rules and new customs and stuff like that there is alt of details at work that will affect
companies. i hope we can check in with you at that time. jamie dimon thank you for joining us. >> thank you very much. i enjoyed it very much and i hopefully talk to you soon. >> jaimie dimon speaking to me earlier this week from paris. we also heard there canadian prime minister justin trudeau talk to our poppy harlow. he was taking on tariffs and how they impact american voters. that issue is at the crux of u.s. canada relations a historically close i lines has become markedly more tense since donald trump moved into the white house. here is more of the interview with justin trudeau about his relationship with president trump and his standout commitment to gender equality in canada's governs. >> mr. prime minister, i appreciate you joining me today. >> it's a pleasure to be here, poppy. >> two years ago i was at a dinner and heard you speaking about diversity and heard you speaking about a cabinet that was equal men and women.
todays it gender balanced 17 women, 17 men. it was clearly intentional. why did you do it. >> look, first of all before you can get to a cabinet that is gender balanced it took a number of years of work recruiting great women and convincing them to run for politics, which isn't easy as it is. when you think about getting to better gender diversity you realize you have to do a lot of work building the prine towards that. but why do it, was fundamental to governing well. when you have a broader group of people with different perspectives, different backgrounds, different stories, different life experiences you are much better able to solve different problems and solve them in a way that is going to respond to the needs people have. >> i mean when i low back, prime minister at the under representation of women in the u.s. congress, what do you think. >> well, we have a similar
underrepresentation in canada's parliament. we are no where near 50%. we are no where near 40%. >> right. >> we have to do a lot better. but i can't control the numbers in parliament. i can control the numbers in my cabinet. >> so the harvard political review last month reported on some polling data internally in canada that showed that you have lost a bit of male support since your election and what pollster that men are not a priority. as women royce up that men are down. >> i can understand worries people have any time there is a status quo challenged. what we have seen time and time again is when you have more fairness, more equality, you actually create better proermts, more opportunity for everyone. >> president trump mass at times
spoken more critically of you, mr. prime minister, than he has of president putin of russia. recep erdogan of duterte of the philippines. and the president of north korea what do you think of that. >> my job is to focus on what matters toenings. >> you don't take it personally. >> in politics, you get called a lot of things by a lot of different people. and most of the time you you are just able to shrug it off. i've gotten good at that. my focus is building a constructive relationship that works for canadians that's what i will do. >> president trump has repeatedly referred to the free press as the enemy of the american people. this happened even after a bomb was sent to my office at cnn. and see dangerous? i have been unequivocal repeatedly that a free press is fundamental to any democracy
around the world, to any free society. you have an informed populous where with predictions are held to account from media. that's why, whether it's the killing of a journalist in the case of khashoggi in the saudi consulate or standing up for the important work that journalists do, i will always be unequivocal about defending journalism, investing in a free and independent journalism as a country. that's something i make no -- no secret of and no no bones about. >> on that issue, on the killing of the journalist jamaul chashdy many people want to know what the united states will do and as i sit with you, what canada will do. canada has pennsylvania deal to sell light armored deal to saudi arabia. you said you expect consequences for the pre-med indicated murder. will canada cancel the arms
sales? >> this is something the entire world is outraged about. and we are demanding answers on it. i will point out canada has been in conflict with saudi arabia at a dplomic level a few months now because we put out a statement condemning the arrest of a number of pro democracy pro women active its in saudi arabia. we will continue to stand up for human rights while at the same time looking for ways to be more transparent and more accountable in the economic choices we make. >> but is there a -- is there a line, mr. prime minister? what would it take for you to say that's it i know it costs canada for a billion dollars because that's the penalty for undoing in yemt np but is there a line where you say no we are not doing the deal with saudi
arabia. >> we are looking at how to move forward responsibility responsible but the first thing is together a level of mal khashoggi. for the murder of >> it may be on the table? it's an option. >> we look forward to making the right decision based on the information you have at the time. and we still expect more information on that. >> what keeps you up at night? >> the polarization we see in canada and around the world. people who don't listen to each other anymore. people who are so sure that they are right that they won't listen to anyone who disagrees and won't -- will even dehumanize people mo disagree with them. the demonization of political opponents is something that is fundamentally counter to the idea that diversity of opinions of perspectives of backgrounds should be a source of strength and resilience. >> well i very much appreciate your time today on all of the topics. >> that demonization of the
other then keeping the prime minister awake frankly it keeps people awalk ail over the world as america's divide grows one of the biggest drivers is fake news. but our next guest says that that did not start with donald trump. kurt anderson is the peabody award wins house of the show 360, and a west selling novelist his latest book fantasyland how america went haywire how explain the reality between illusion and reality. from the salem witch trial in the 1600s to donald trump in 2016 appear he spoke to our walter isaacson about finding the truth amid the blur were lines. >> kurt thanks for joining us. >> my pleasure. >> the elections, did that show us as a divided nation getting even more divided? >> i think that's fair to say. i mean, i get keeper in the weeds to find more interesting counterexamples of oh, look where we are not bifurcating into an even more sort of
separate reality country. and there are examples of that. i think the urban and suburb. versus rural split is pretty much clearer than ever. and qb again, the fact that we are -- we are more dysfunctionally split, even though i think the democrats winning the house is good for the democrats. but it's also good for dpkz not to have a sim party in control especially under this president. but i think the there being any kind of bipartisan new era of governance starting, that's a myth for -- an impossibility for a couple of more years. >> your book fantasyland talks about this from the salem witch trials and the present. and seems to go in flows at times. s what cause the fever to break this time. >> that's what worried me most
as i spent years researching and writing fantasyland. even though i had been an optimistic. with go more right, left, status, more free market. looking at the last 40, 50 years i see the pendulum continuing to go in one direction. and that's highway with worry. i worry the new conditions of the internet, of cable news, and partisan news media more generally, are new conditions that -- that i'm not sure we o back to normal anymore. >> one of the things that made it so we didn't have the folatesly separate realities we in a common pool of information we dwru up with walter cronkite saying that's the way it is. structurally with the internet and cable news now is that something that will never return to. >> that's my worry.
and you know it's the chicken and egg problem. as we had more sources of news. that wasn't a bad thing. there was lots of complacency and elitism and sexism and all things were problem whep and a newspaper or two and three networks and two magazines ran the show. but i think that pendulum swung too far the other way where people are able to have their own fully apparently true reality on the internet, on talk radio on television news. that -- that really reinforces whatever they wish to believe. it's not even confirmation bias, as the psychologists. you look for things to reinforce what you believe and you then you keep bleaching them. this always existed. this is a new situation where people are more able than ever to not just believe -- have their opinions but to -- to
believe their opinions are facts and to fail to see the difference between facts and opinion. >> do you think some people have just given up on believing that the truth is the truth? i do think that that is the big problem. that's the big problem that i examined that i discovered really in writing fantasyland. and it hasn't happened overnight. it's been a- it was always part of the american character and habits much mind that were pretty peculiarly american for a lining time. but it did slide up back and forth and the grown ups were in control for a few century. the last 50 years any got out of control. and thanks to new technologies and all that happened in the 1960s and everything. the idea of empirical reality and belief in science and reason came under challenge. and donald trump, as nobody before him had done in that position of authority and power
exploited it and is now exacerbating it. to me it's the biggest problem. it's the existential problem as you suggested erlgier once we no longer share a set of facts about the climate of the earth warming or not for instance, is there a dangerous caravan or, you know, ms 13 people heading our way? once we really don't have the same set of facts, how do you run a dpkz a society. >> how much of this stems from things like reality tv, of which cams are trump comes out of that world in which the distinction between reality and fancy is so blurred? well reality tv and its emergence around the turn of the century, 2000, is a big part of this. it's both symptom and cause. you know, a symptom of in ongoing blurring of fiction and reality which have been going on for for decades if not centuries
in this country and in this country especially. but then it encourages the idea that in the case of donald trump who played a successful businessman on television for 15 years initially was with very, very high ratings. it encouraging people to pleef that. and nominate him for president and elect him president. >> and do you feel that democrats will now become part of the show too now they have the committed gafls and they will will say let's join the reality tv. >> all washington politicians have become part of the show over the last few decades. and with cable news with partisan cable news and so forth. sure they're going to be part of the show. but if -- if politics has become a show and you're the -- the out of poufr party you had no choice but to become part of the show. now, you -- you want to maintain a -- your tether to reality as much as possible which i hope
the democrats will do. >> when you see tv news anchors like sean hannity or the judge go on stage and be part of a political rally, is that fitting into your concept of how we lose the distinction of what the press should do. >> well it is certainly a new -- a new condition. i mean -- in that case -- i mean i think it's awful and the fact that we lost those -- another set of norms about what journalists should and shouldn't do is bad news. but we are also reverting to the way the u.s. press used to be. in the 19th century and the 18th century almost all newspapers and publications were partisan rags. the wigs had this paper and the federalists had this paper. that's the way it was. and in the late 19th century through the 20th century even though there was partisan news
and had political opinions the set of norms about what the news should be which is to say fair minded for the truth obtained. and the idea, yes, walter cronkite campaigning for or against richard nixon is an insane idea. but here we are. >> the notion of fake news existed when people were totally making up articles, or russia was making up articles and planning them. and then trump appropriated that to make the main stream media fake news you had sean hasn't hannity going on stanl and pointing at reporters saying fake news. does that help undermine the concept of truth? >> absolutely. that is the problem. and that's what the -- that is the total tannertrue.
>> based on a book the. the death truth backup echoing your book fantasyland that's the underlying issue in this election, which is people having no concrete notion that the truth is the truth. >> if republicans were winning on the basis of arguments or even emotional appeals not based on -- on falsehood, then you know, the democrats could just say, well, they won made a better case, whatever or they appealed to bigotry even but when it's based on untruths about either election tampering or -- or untruths about democrats of various kinds or this caravan, then i think -- i don't think that's been the case as much as it is today tleecht in my lifetime. >> in fantasyland and even in
your discussions recent, you also point out that the left has wandered into fantasyland quite often. do you fear that happening too. >> i think we -- the bullet whether democrat or republican is undermining the sense of legislate macy of our democracy that that didn't happen. i think the fact that they are not -- they now have in big lever of power of running the house in washington will serve to keep democrats and exactic voters enskonsed in reality and the reality based kpun where they have been more -- much more than republicans the last 20 years as republicans have gone o rails. >> but do you think that the country. >> yeah. >> is hungering for a memg of people who want to unify us? or are they looking for
resistance. >> it would be nice to say unity. so i do think if you ask people is there too little unity and too much divisiveness, 83% would answer yes. but are people in the short and medium term willing to do what's necessary to make that happen? i don't think so. and to me the message of in election is that people are hungering down in bunkers. >> and as card carrying members of the reality based community we defend the facts at every turn. next week, join me for my conversation with paul simon, still crazy talented after all these years. but until then, that is it for our program tonight. thanks for watching. amp power and company on pbs and join us again next week uniworld is a proud sponsor of "amanpour & co." when bea tollman founded a collection of boutique hotels,
she had bigger dreams, and those dreams were on the water -- a river, specifically -- multiple rivers that would one day be home to uniworld river cruises and their floating boutique hotels. today that dream sets sail in europe, asia, india, egypt, and more. bookings available through your travel agent. for more information, visit uniworld.com. >> additional support has been provided by rosalind p. walter, bernard and irene schwartz, sue and edgar wachenheim iii, the cheryl and philip milstein many family. seaton melvin and judy and josh westin. and by contributions to your pbs station from viewers like you. thank you.
tonight on "kqed newsroom," the midterm elections gave democrats control of the house, while a justice department shakeup could threaten the russia investigation. as california prepares for a high-profile role on capitol hill, we look at what the results mean for the golden state. diverse women candidates made history across the country on election night. hello and welcome to "kqed newsroom." i'm thuy vu. we begin with a constitutional debate on immigration. today president trump issued a proclamation to deny asylum to anyone entering the u.s. illegally, a staunch reversal of