tv A Conversation With Bill Moyers PBS March 23, 2019 10:00pm-11:30pm PDT
explore new worlds and new ideas through programs like this, made a ilable for everyone ethrough contributions to your pbs stion from viewers ike you.or everyone ethrough contributions tothank you.stion hello i'm don shelby. what you're about to see is one of the most exciting and humbling assignments of my career. i was asked to interview bill moyers. it's something like playing the piano for mozart. because to my mind bill moyers is the greatest broadcast journalist of our age. he's won more than 30 national emmys, a lifetime achievement award for the national academy of television arts and sciences, nine george foster peabody awards, the broadcast equivalent of the pulitzer prize, three george polk awards, and the dupont-columbia golden baton. he's introduced us to some of the world's most remarkable iople in his one-on-oerviews and shared with us a world of ideas. and he once took us inside hisily in a very personal way.
he's authored 12 books i'm incompetent to properly introduce bill moyersway. there's simply not enough time. before a studio audience a man known for his modesty and his reluctance to talk about himself, ag ed to sit down with me afor a conversation i tshall never forget. em ladies and gen, mr. bill moyers. (upbeat music) (audience applause) - it started in rshall, texas but it started before you were a journalist.
something unusual occurred in marshall that taught you about this america. you were the son of one of the poorest people in town anywhere else, in any other time, you wouldn't have had much of shot. how did it happen that a poor boy got the shot you got? - i was the beneficiary of affirmative action for poor, white southern boys. rkif you studied hard, hard, move, around town, met peopere were men particularly men in the town who would say, "he's a comer let's help him. he "he's a poor boy let' him." so the rodeo club gave me a scholarship, the city commission let me come in t- and on their meetings. i was just constantly touched by people older than i am who saw someing in me
that i didn't see in myself. so they just kept moving me from one opportunity to another. but yo gknow in those days t of income inequality was not so great. one of my best friends was anne blalock, who was the daughter of the richest man in town. en but weto the same school, we went to the same parties, we went to the same dances. and i never felt uncomfortable in the presence of the kids in town whose parents were really the more fortunate ones. and that's changed in this country today ng to a very disturxtent. there's very little conversation, there's ry little intercourse, there's very little communication, very little participation between the poorest people, t poords in our country, in our cities, and those who are well off. but i, it never occurred to me, that i wasn't as good as anne, or iin our relationship,r thatand so that little town said to me, you signify, you matter. yit doesn't matter thr dad is poor.
so those benefits in this small town a weilable to an ambitious young man who was white. - you are 14 years old, you're in marshall, texas, and there's a political rally, and for the first time in your life you see inerson lyndon baines johnson, the senator of the state of texas. what did you think when you first saw him? - i was bowled over by the helicopter. (audience laughs) i was on the town square and the helicopter landed. he traveled the state, this is the 1948lection, which he was beaten by 87 very contested and i have no doubt illegal votes f down in the valleyxas. but he was campaigning hard in a helicopter, in '48 the firstant year that helicopters were used in campaigns? t so i wwn to the town square and when he got off the helicopter took his big
ss stetson and it into the crowd. now i later learned that he did that ad at every stop and hesomebodf who went and got the stetn and returned it to the helicopter at the next stop so he could to it again. i mean i learned a lot about politics in that very moment. that realization thate.this wasg this was just not that he had an endless supply of stetsons in the helicopter, but i remember that he spoke to the crowd without a microphone. must have been 1,000, 2,000 people, atourthouse square. big man, boisterous, stentorian in his tall, commanding presence, and i remember being stunned by the power of his persona. something you didn't see again, really, until the campaign of '64 when he was running for president for the first time in his own right. - so you, north texas, university of texas austin, th southweslogical seminary,
would stop in edinburgh and spend some time to study. committed to becoming a preacher, preaching in two.churches upon i but in there somewhere is a letter that you nt to lbj suggesting that the young voice wasn't beiyb heard as much, and you knew something. by and he was struck hat apparently, because he called you. - i had been at north texas state college in upstate texas and i would go stop at the student uni from time to time and watch the mccarthy hearing. some of you don't remember the mccarthy hearings but the extremist joseph mccarthy a senator from wisconsin on anti-communist crusade had gone beyond the limits of reasonable dialogue and reasonable politics and the senate had called him to question was about to censor him. and sitting in the student union watching those head.ngs i became very enga
don't ask me exactly why it was, as i say, i was 20 i'm 82 now that was a long time ago. but i felt maybe i wanted to be a politicalournalist. i planned to be a journalist i was working my way through the colleges on the pubcity staff of the college covering the sports from the college and writing newsletters. i went to my office on a saturday afternoon t wrote a lett i had never met senator johnson except to see him from the helicopter. and i wrote a letter saying, i'd like to learn about politics and you're in a campaign down here where you're trying to reach young people and i think i've got something for you and you've got something for me. the letter got to his desk, he always wanted to have bright, young men around him. john connally became governor and many others were young men on his staff at one time in his career. and i went to washington and spent the summer f t when i got off the trolley that brought me over to the capitol where his senate majority office was he was getting onto the trolley, and he took my hand and said, "come on," he didn't even have a warm greeting
in the basement of the capitol opened the door and took me down to an addressograph chine, an addressograph machine was like a sewing machine, you would hit the pedal and a metal plate would come through, the stamp would come down, and print the address on the envelope. so in-between eight o'clock at night, and seven the next morning, i addressed by foot 275,000 envelopes. dn i even unpacked my bag and i hadn't gone to thso then he moved me stayiover to his own officeim. to answer his own correspondence and there i was at 20 y totaexperienced in this, writing his letters to eisenhower, writing his letters to the secretary state, writing his letters to his contributors in texas, and we bonded. i s going back to this small college at the end of the summer, and lyndon johnson w,at his desk said, "you k i thr to the university of texas." that's where he lived an's where he had a television station and i said, "mr. leader i don't have anyoney,
"i'm going to get married, and i've got a job "in north texas in denton," he said, "i'll give you a job-- - [don] ktbc? il - ktbc the radio station which somehow mysteriously was the only station in the country that coned broadcast all threorks. - i wonder how that happened. - they had a monopoly, the favorable gods wet looking down, and i job with him. he had promised me that he would pay me a hundred dollars a weekd that was astonishing in '54. it was more than my father had ever made in his life as i said earlier and i went down and he worked me 40 hours a week but we bought the first mobile unit in texas. and i used to tool around town study, covering accidents and murders and the state senate the state legislature and that was probably the biggest crime scene in austin. (audience laughs) but anyway that fall i had a deep, profound experience i still have a hard time describing it.
and i decided that politics wasn't, and journalism wasn't going to satisfy my instincts and my intuitions, or even be a healthyplace. so i decided to go and teach at a religious institution, i'd get my phd first, so i went to the seminary four years. and i was graduating in late december of '59, judith and i, my wife, were packing our boxes to move back to austin where i had been accepted to do my phd in american civilization ta and had a teaching assship at baylor university which is a baptist school in waco halfway between dallas and austin. and the phone rang, it wtwo day, an it was lyndon johnson, i hadn't talked to him in two and a half years. he said, "bill how are you doing?" "i'm fine, mr. leader." "what are you doing," he said. "i'm packing to go back to austin." " and he sai, no, i'm going to make a run for it, "i don't think i'll get it but ieed you back."
i hung up and i said, "judith pack for washington, "not for austin." anshwe went up, on the wasaid, "what did he offer to pay you?" and i said, "i have no idea he didn't mention it." (audience laughs) and so i spent that year back in his office traveling with him, spending every night in some hotel, around the country, seeing all of the politicians, meeting themwatching what happene arouthey were heavy seeing all drinkers in those days, and after all day of campaigning they'd come to the hot and they would drink until 1:30, 2:30, 3: in the morning and i had to stay up until it was over. ar of course i d a lot, but gradually, that led me in the direction of washington for my career. when he didn't get the nomination he did get picked to be the viceesidential runnin. i started to go back to texas then, and he said, "no stay through the election "then you can go." d so i did and during the campaign i was the liaison on the vice president's plane the swoose named after the plane he had been
c, on in the paciriefly during world war ii, and the caroline which was john kennedy's plane. and i got to know the irish mafia, to be frank and others have written this, p i was the onson on johnson's team who could talk boston aud interpret boston tin. (audience laughs) and i became in their eyes somewhat valuable. so when the election came and we won, barely, as you know, john kennedy came down to the lbj ranch and i'm sure that lbj set him up for this, but john kennedy was leaving and he turned on the porch of the lbj ranch saw me leaning in the corner, came over and said, "i hear you're not coming with us." oi i said, "no, i'm to teach at a baptist school "and i'll get my phd oi i saand he said, "don't you teacknow harvard was founded "by a baptist preacher?" " he sai need you in washington," so i went. and just a few months into working in the vice president's office, boring job, he was bored out of his mind, it was a non-job at that time,
ha and written a speech for lbj, he said, "i don't have a speech, i'm going to speak "at this university give me speech." so i sat down on my little portable typewriter and wrote a speech proposg a youth corps, where did i get the idea? from hubert humphrey in minnesota he had been advocating a youth corps a peace corps, kennedy of course di picked it up but swe. and after the election i realized as kennedy announced that he was going to start the peace corps, that's what i wanted to do so i began what became a strenuous and almost futile effort to rest myselfntree of the vice presi office. and i was one of the founding organizers of the peace corps, became its first deputy director and i had the three best years of my life. you know it was a new effort to send young people n who we in military uniform out to help shape the identity of america in the wor and to give them a sense of the world that they would bring back. and i can't tell you every time i come to minnesota, every time i go tohe
hubert humphrey institute, i gave the keynote speech at the humphrey institute when they opened it. people come up to me, my age and younger, and they say, "we were in the peace corps, "it was a defining moment of my life." it was mine, i couldn't have been happier. and one day in early october of '63 i got a call from kenny o'donnell who was then john kennedy't, most powerful assist "bill we want you to go to austin, re "thedent is going to go down there." "we sent an italian, advance man from boston, "whom i knew, jerry bruno, we sent him down there, "and he just can't, they can't understand each other. "our efforts, we've got to raise money. "we've got to speak in houston, "and you've got to go down there and hold hands." so i did, i went down and i was holding hand with the governor and the labor people, and the liberals and the conservatives until the president got out of town. sitting at the forty acres club ni at thersity of texas having lunch with the chairman of the state democratic committee
and the most promising young member of the state senate, ben barnes the maitre d' came over to me and said, "mr. moyers you've got a call," o i went and took it. ben bit was bill paine the came secret service agent assigned to me in dallas and he said, i immediately went back and told my colleagues and went right out to the airport, on the way, ben barnes arranged foa little aircraft to carry me to dallas, halfway between austin and dallas, robert trout on cbs said, in a haunting voice, "the president is dead." , i landed at love fiearted to town, to the hospital, parkland hospital and goa dispa, "the president, lyndon johnson now, was on air force one at love field," right where we had landed. went back, went up to air force one, the secret service stoppede, he didn't know me, and i wrote a note-- - what did it say?
- it in the library. mr. president, don't ask me why intuitively i started calling him mr. president. i'd always called him senator, or leader. m mr. president re if you need me, bill moyers. a few minutes later the secret service agent came back s and called me up tps and there i was on air force one. - [don] what was going through your mind? - no awesome, my god, look at this, it wasi ery practical, how dlp him? h whatgoing to do now? 'cause he had never expected to be president, i wasn't ready f wasn't really prepared for it. i was a practical guy. i mean in the campaign of '60, organizing the peace corps, those were administrative and managerial jobs. and i had never even en in the white house thosand i was standing at and the back of that pla, saying, "how can i be helpful?" and when he went back into the bedroom of air force one security had closed all the portholes, but he had opened
t the one t inner office, inner bedroom, inner sanctum and the was looking out. tquietly, veryr ocalmly, and i said,m, "mr. presidenthat are you thinking the was looking out. and he said, "are the missiles flying?", e' here in the midst of a cold war, the cuban missile crisis was not long behind us, and i realized then that he had things on his mind h never had on his mind before. and i just started filling in with the small details. calling the speaker of the house, just functional things, and i was good at that, and one reason he came to trust me was because i had that sense of doing the details and not being conspicuous about it. but there were no grl t and noble, or fearoughts in mind on that plane coming back. >> hi, everybody. my name is don shelby. i'm the person who's sitting next to bill moyers in the
program that you're watching. and it haseen the highlight of my life. when i was first asked to host the program and to ask the questions of bill moyers, i knew that was not going to be as forthcoming because he's a very modest person, he doesn't like to talk about himself. inact, in the first break that we took, he leaned over and apologized to me and said, "i'm sorry i'm talking s much." no, that's cool, you can talk as much as you want to. this show that you're watchi was for me a labor of love, the opportunity to interview him and spend some time th him and be able to ask him about those incredible times duringe hnson administration when he was present for the creation of what we now call history. which is perfectly fitting for journalists because it's always been said that journalists write the first draft of history but much of what he has seen and cover and reported
the way he has writtenndy and the way he has spoken it to us will stand as a landmark of the great journalism that is produced. i'm so glad that you're watching this program, and supporting this television station. >> what an absolute privilege it is to be tching this superb program with you this evening. it is truly remarkable to hear bill moyers tell us about his life experiences. imagine, he is the only oneil living from that plane on the day that kennedy died. wow. hi, i'm margaret prestrud and i'm a member of public television, and i'm asking you to give your support this evening, as well, around this wonderful program. when you do do it with a gift of $84 or $7 a month, we will be program that we're enjoying.ful the program that we'reg,ot just
that there's almost an extra hour, as well, because we just were not able to fit it all into this program. it is truly a special recollection from bill moyers. with a gift $156 or $1 a month as a sustaining member, our gift to you will be the program a companion book to bi well as moyers' journal. this is 524 pages, it is 43 interviews, every interview has a personal introduction by bill moyers setting the stage, telling you how it was that day in the studio. with a gift of $252 org read. month as a sustaining member, we will send you the power of myth, where bill moyerl and joseph camtalked pacts our lives.and how it it is just fabulous series. not only is it the d.v.d. but it also includes a viewer's
ide and extra footage th was not in the original that you can enjoy. these are all our way of saying thank you when you call d make that pledge of support. why don't you do it right now? mll the number on the bot of your screen or go online to show your support r this very special program on your public television station. >> when bill moyers left thel. j. white house, he spent some time working on othernd projectshen he ended up at wnet in new york city. his first touch withublic there, he started to wthfrom nbc and then with cbs, he jumped into eric sevareid's shoes as a commentatoron he cbs evening news and then he went back to wnet, because he was so constrained in commercial television, heil didn't have the y to expand thought. just talking to other people,em
letting xpound, letting them talk, can we keep up with the kind of standard that he set? the only way we can do that is if we somehow pull ourselvesnd togetherake money available for your local publici teon station. that is the only way we're going to continue to get that kind of journalism coverage. it means here you can trust what you get. >> you keep great conversations coming with your financial contribution to this station today. make a monthly sustaining gift of $7 or a one-time donation of $84 and we'll thank you with a d.v.d. of this program, which n includrly an hour of additional conversation, plus questions and answers with bill moyers.th monthly sustaining gift of $13, or a donation of $156 right now, you'll enjoy the ooprogram d.v.d., plus the
"bill moyers' journal, the conversation continues." with 43 in-depth interviews from his popular tv series enjoy the 25th anniversary edition of the seminal series, "the power of myth" with joseph campbell with your gifof $252 or a sustaining contribution of $21 per nth. the three-d.v.d. set includese new foott seen in the original release, and an interview with film maker george lucas. you'll also receive the d.v.d. p of todaygram. please call and give to this station right now. thank you for your support. >> you know, it is the job of pbs and your local staon to inspire, to entertain, to illuminate, to uplift everyoneev in your familyyone in your community to do a little bit more, to do a little bit better because the great issues of the day are put right in front of you.
and you have the opportunity to make decisions, and then it makes democracy work and is one of the tenets of bill moyers that it is a democracy in peril, unless we do act, unless we do make these o decisions on o. you want the education. you want the inspiration. you want those things in your life and they're not available elsewhere. you can watch all the cable, all the commercial channels you want to and you n't get what you get on your station. so i hope you will join us in pporting this station. mesticalln the white house, lbj pledged to carry out john f. kennedy's mission. antime magazine called you the young man in chae of everything. (audience laughs) but the vietnam inr interfered, and gohe way he of great hopes and dreams. did you resent the war in that way,
did you resent the war as a man of the cloth? d- in thoseent the war astwo years when i was in charge of the domestic program i didn't think about the war. as we look back and as documents are revealed it turnsweut that many decision made in '64 and early '65 by the president, mcnamara and bundy. and as the war began to escalate it was very troubling. i wish that i had been a moral prophet, and had said, "this is gonna end in disaster." it was tragic, it was one of those tragedies of history on which lyndon johis responr that changed the course of our society. frustrated the great society programs, snuffed them out in the cradle. i mean every constituency that we had practically for the great society program for remaking
the institutions of america, schools, roads and all of that was aciety victim of the vietnam war. many times i left in janua of '67 becausbeing nurtured, no careablonger being funded, and there was no longeoha priority of lyndonon. he had to be, when you're in a war, you have to fight it, and so i left. my influence was limited then, humbled, because the president, i was an advocate of stopping the bombing of the north. and and i'd come in and meinthe president said,oom "here comes ban the bomb bill." and they ban to see me that wa and therefore believed "herethat i was skewed.b bill." li - no lest than doris kearns goodwin said that, "moyers should write the b bk, because all of thonks even in caro's work can be filled iby bill moyers."
and when i read why you won't write a book about lbj i was touched professionally and personally for why you said you won't do it. would you tell people why you won't? - there were so many reasons i can't be sure i'atremembering the one ou are referring to. there were many reasons, many reasons. first of all, i didn't want to be the thief of his confidence. i spent hours, hours with the man alone, on the campaign trail, in those first 12 months t of oe in the white house, and he never believed that anything he said to me, whether he was drunk or sober would become public. and secondly i lived the experience hat i don't remember itwell. because there were so many things coming at me. i was telling my really good friends here this morning
that when i left the white house i put all my files in 100 boxes we moved them to the brookings institute and then on up to new york when i was publisher the . i never opened them after 25 years to took theur new home in new jersey put 'em in the attic, never opened them. i haye't opened them for 5s, so last year when we decided to sell our house, i had to get all of those boxes out including the carcasses of mice and the shells of creatures of all kind and i opened them. and the first box i opened was re the first weeks in the white house, and all we could do, i didn't even have anwnassistank that's how we were thrust into the hurricane. five of us, six of us, the president, mrs. johnson, jack valenti, me, horace busby and a couple of others. and thpee were all the kennedle but they were so grief stricken and so shattered
that we felt as if we were alone on the island, an the island was in the midst of this great tsunami. and so i just put my files and all my correspondence, cables and all that in the files, here i was 29 years old and there were cables coming in from the uprising in nigeria, and the civil war in cypress, and the turmoil of the british government which was in trouble, and the information about the movement of chinese troops towards the border of korea, and right on down the line ere was one issue after another. and what did we know about them? what did i know about them? i had been at the peace corps. even lyndon johnson who had been in many of those meetings with president kennedy, what did he know about them? and suddenly decisions were being made about issues for which there was very little time
to collect the evidence. you know lyndon johnson kept saying to me, in all those years, "a man is no better, a man's judgement is no better than his information." and i really believed that, and that has guided me in my journalism career the last 4years. my opinion isn't worth a pig's ass d if y't mind my saying so, unless i can back it up with evidence. - you said in a couple of places, in s he of the books that ye written more than a don books. and the thousands of hours of television that you produced. i found three emferences to the word att. where you talked about a personal need to atone. when you said to william sloane coffin in one of the very last conversations you were saying you were glad that you had grown old enough
to begin to account for in essence the sins of the past. and he said to you, "bill we have a lot to atone for." has your journalism career, and i will make it easier for you if you want to answer it thiway, because it has with me, been an atonement in a sense a redemption? - i don't look at it that way, and i never have. but let me say in the crucible of power you make a lot of mistakes. sora of them come from cer, some of them come from a paucity of information, and some of them come from haste, but you make a lot of mistakes. you don't see there are consequences until you are out of the battle, till the war is over. and you can read what the other side said ote other troops on the r side of the trenches or the files in north vietnamese records or in the kremlin library you don't really know that you misjudged it or made a mistake,
presidents or staffsistants tt you make a lot of mistakes. and if yy let the mistakes eat a you they will destroy you. but you learn certain things, that is you're happier if you are trying to report the truth than if you are trying to conceal it. you have more fun, you feel better at night. if you're trying to find the truth instead of trying to cover it up. when i became press secretary against my will by the way, the presidhrt went through two or press secretaries. he said, "i want you to be press secretary," i said, "mr. president i don't want to do it, "thank you anyway." the second time didn't do it. the third time i said, "yes," because i'd still have my shoulder out of joint here. and that afternoon i flew home to see my wife who was in dtslas visiting her par and as we went to bed that evening, she had on her red and whe silk pajamas. "y i said know this is the beginning of the end."
and i said, "because no man can serve two masters." pru're trying to help theident , you're serving his inrests rightly. but if you're trying to help the press understand why he's making those decisions, or what they mean, you're trying to help the press. and there were moments that grew in intensity and paranoia, in which he thought i was serving the press more than i was serving him. - but at some point you came to the conclusion standing at the lectern in the white house that you wanted to be on that se. - yes i rememb it clearly. it was in the briefing room, my office was the briefing room. by the way there were only about 40 or 50 accredited reporters in the white house then. there are now 1,100, so i had a small office, and we'd brief the press there (laughs).
i knew we had carefully arrangto for the president to g bethesda hospital lad have a surgery, galer surgery. but i couldn't let that out until after three o'clock. because the first line that would have gone out om the press corps they would have rushed out and said, "johnson to go for surgery." and we agreed we called the fed, we called the secretary of the treasury, "omano it could bring thet down "if you do it before three o'clock. "it could bring a government down." co and johnson said, "id bring my government down." so we calculated a carefully, thought out strategy, and i would not answer a questions that subject until 3:01. well merriman smith who was the dean of the white house corresndents his wife had a really close friend who was a nurse at bethesda hospital. an and merrame in and said, "bill i know the president's going to bethesda ha "but i have to it confirmed."
in those days pierre salinger who had been kennedy's press secretary, had urged me to learn to smoke cigars, i never smoked. he said because you're going to be asked very tough questions and you're going to need 30 seconds to think of the answer. and if you're smoking a cigar you can light it up and you've got 30 seconds to compose your answer. (audience laughs) so i was hooked i smoked a cigar on my son's front porch this afternoon, i got used to them. and anyway, so i ease and he said, "let me light it." he smoke cigarettes, so i walked around him and locked my door from the inside, took the key and put it in my pocket. from my office to the lobby where the press phones were s and d, "damnit i know it "i'm gonna go out and write it." so he opened the door, he cldn't get it open. we were seven minutes till three and he couldn't, and he started chasing me around the room. no, i'serious, behind the des and he started chasing he started coming at me, "you son of a bitch," he said, "i know you got, "just nod, just confirm it some way.
"otherwise i'm going to take your "no answer as a confirmation." so finally he calmed down a little bit and at three o'cloc i pushed the button tohe outside the press came back in and i made the announcement. he thenstarted asking all these questions and then and there i said to myself, as i lighted a cigar, again, w t to be on their side asking the questions, "than on my side not swering them." - let's leave the white house and lbj and now you're a journalist. 1 1970 you go to channwnet, and begin doing a weekly show and get television in yr blood, but when you decided to have a conversation with joseph campbell can you imagine what it would have been like to calk into some place li and say, "i got an idea two guys sitting downacing
"each other talking for a series "of six long shows about mythology." they would have told you, you were crazy. - they would have called bellevue hospital. (audience laughs) i wish i could claim exclusive rights to the idea, but i had colleagues who talked about joseph campbell and i had read the hero with a thousand faces when i was at the university of texas and didn't understand it but i had read it and remembered it. and then i read that he had been adhesing george lucas ontar wars film. e so i called him up andid, "of course i'd love to sit and talk with you." cbs wouldn't consider it, my friends at pbs, they saw the value of it and they put up a good bit of the money that i had toaise to do it. and we did 20 some-odd hours over two summers '85 and '86 at george lucas's skywalker ranch. - so myths are stories of the search
by men and women through the ages ncfor meaning, for signifi to make life signify, to touch the eternal, to un rstand the mysterious, a to find out who . - people say that what we're all seeking is a meaning for life. i don't think that's what we're really seeking. at i think e're seeking is an experience of being alive so that the life experiences that we have on the purely physical plane will have residences within that are those of our own inner-most being and reality. and so that we actually feel the rapture of being alive. that's what it's all finally about, and that's what these clues help us to find within ourselves. - the reaction initially from the station was, "what?" two guys sguting there, two whit, sitting there ing about mythology?
and we had no promotion and it went out and within the next seven days after it first aired, stations were getting calls afrom people, what is this?, an put it back on they began to run it and it grew and it grew, it's the most, 's hat i will be remembered for introducing this great teacher to a mass audience. because it was repeated over and again it became for years the best fundraiser for public broadcasting. i believe there's no better production value than the power of the human face. when you let people look at your face, and your emotions, and your eyes, and the intensity in your participatione in this conversation there's no way i could create that with technology. when you tell somebody, "i love you," if you're fortunate you tell them when you're this close to them. if you ask them to marry you, you're looking right into their eyes. there is no power greater than the human face
for the purpose of television, and television ms.es us intimate strang and so being able to sit like this and talk is probably the most personal experience we have outside of sex. and since that's limited for many people, conversation is absolutely the way we entertain ourselves. ud nce laughs) let me tell you a story. a ye after that series aired i was walking out of a restaurant, la caravelle restaurant, on 8th avenue, between 55th and 56th. i was walking down the street and a young, african american woman was coming this way. and as you know, television makes us intimate strangers u and you think ow everybody you see on television. and i think some intuitive reason that i know the people who are watching, i've never lost that sense of the people on the other side of the camera. so our eyes connected and we walked on, strangers.
but i turned and she turned and she said, "mr. moyers?" and i said"yes," she said, "do you have a minute?" i said, "sure," she said, "i came to new york "to be an actress and i've had a really difficult time. "but none of them "i hwere satisfactory.ions y yfriend and i living together for a year "he just suddenly left i haven't seen him. "i mean life just sort of come to an end for me. "so one night i came home, and i went to my apartment," she pointed right across the street to a small apartment building and she said, "i went up and i turned on the burner, "i pulled down the window, i went over and poured "a big glass of bourbon," and i know you like bourbon. and she said, "i laid down on the couch "and i was really ready to go," she said, "when i had left that morning, "i had left my television set on,
"and i heard these two guys talking abo "myths, and the meaning of life, 'do yok people are lookingi for the meaning of life?'th "and the other one said, 'no, no, no, 'i think they're looking 'for the experience of being alive,'" and she said, "you know something snapped in me, "and then i heard a voice of the announcer say, 'come back next week, (audience laughs) 'for the second edition of 'bill moyers and joseph campbell on the power of myth.'" - and that postponed her suicide. - she go tup and said, "i pour bourbon out, "i turned the burner off, i opened the window, w "andched every one of those episodes. "and what i decided," standing on the street, "what i decided is i don't need to be an actress, "but i need to experience the possibility ve "of life day." now those stories are common for people
who watched that series, and i can't explain it equately, even today, buthis mer to, ouch, and move, infod connect people, and that's what i discovered in doing it, and why i've done it for 44 years. and why i've done a thousand or more hours of television because public affairs is more than the news of the day, it's the truth of poetry, which is a greater truth that you can get from any politician. william carlos williams said, "people are dying ac "for aof the news they don't get on the evening news." can take people far away, it can connect people who don't know each other, intimate strangers. i mean the marriage of the image and the rd co the most powerful ination of truth telling and experience sharing we've ev had.
it's not the cuneiform tablet, it's not the printed word which is wonderful, but it's a marriage of the two and from that coupling comes something creative. and when it's done this way, it is the most important and valuable contribution to our understanding each other that man has ever invented. >> i want you to think back to a moment in time when he mentioned that woman that heju bumped into on the streets, who had in her mind d her life and he heard her to say, "once i saw this show, "the power of the myth" with yseph campbell, i changed mind". and i hope that you're thinking about doing the $21 a month donation because if you do, you get the "power of myth," and do you knowhat this is still, after all of these years, 25
thyears, that this is stil most requested of the d.v.d.s published by pbs and made available to the public. more people still seek that. you can have that in your home. we have only pbs to thank for that. your local station. [music] >> you keep great conversations coming with your financialco ribution to this station ke a monthly sustaining gift of $7 or a one-time donation of $84 and we'll thank you with a d.v.d. of this program, which includes nearly an houof additional conversation, plus questions and answers with bill moyers. with a monthly sustaining gift of $13, or a donation of $156 right now, will a enjoy theth program d.v.d. plubook "bill moyers' journal, theon conversationnues." with 43 in-depth interviews from his popular tv series. enjoy the 25th anniversary
ieedition of the seminal s "the power of myth" with joseph campbell. with your gift of $252, or a sustaining contribution of $21mo peh. the three-d.v.d. set includes w footage not seen in th original release, and an interview withilmmaker george lucas. you'll also receive the d.v.d. of today's program. please call and give to this station right now.yo thank you fo support. >> if you listen to what joseph campbell said, that people are searching for an experience of living, an experience for living. it changed the lives of so many people when they first heard that, and then when bill talked about that a person's judgment is only as good as his or her information, that is an important thing to remember in this day and age. so i hope that you will support this local television station. i hope that you will support pbs so that we continue to
bring you the kind of in-depth reporting analysis and mind-changing opinion-changing and altering information that it has always given you. >> sustaining membership is an easy, convennt and affordable way to support the programs you love. sustaining members make an ongoing monthly contribution or checking account.edit card just choose the monthly amount you would like to give, then go online or call and we'll get it set up for you. your donation will happen automatically each mth so your support will always be current. if you want to change your sustaining membership, just contact us. monthly contributions ben as low as $5 per month. go online or call to start your sustaining membership right now.o >> and the time toat is right now, by making your phone call and giving a financial contribution thelp keep this
station strong. when you make that phone call, with a gift of $7 a month as a sustaining member, you can haved this wonderful dto enjoy in your home, to share with others, perhaps, to listen to more in depth and, remember, there's d.v.d. extras included with that, an additional 49 minutes that we're not going to be seeing. with a gift of $49 a month, you'll get the d.v.d. but we'll send you bill moyers' journal, "the conversation continues." this is a companion book to that icoc program that he did here on pbs and it includes so many incredible interviews. you have robert y talking ce, there are so manysteele on in-depth interviews in here, in fact, it's 43 inrviews, what a wonderful way to really enjoy is d.v.d.rs with this book and "the power of myth."21 a month, now enjoyable would it be for you to have this in your home
to listen to this conversation that has had such an impact for so many years. the important thing, though, is for you to figure at works for you and your family to support this station and call the number on your screen right now. >> and i hope you remeer that this is a fundraiser. this moment in timwhen the conversation with bill moyers is sort of series and 're talking about serious issues but i wantou to know that all you have to do is look back on your own experience in your life and the importae of pbs and the shows it has brought you, and the joy that has brought you, the information that it has brought to you, and the way that it has helped your children, the shows that have been so important to them from "sesame street" all the way to this program today. so, remember that this local station is your lifeline to incredibly important ur time and your dollars. korth
>> yp great conversations coming with your financial contribution to this station today. make a monthly sustaining gift of $7 or a one-time donation of v.d. of this program whichth a includes nearly an hour of additional conversation, plus questions and answers with bill moyers. with a monthly sustaining gift right now, you'll enjoof $156 program d.v.d. plus the book "bill moyers' journal, the conversation continues." th 43 in-depth interview from his popular tv series. enjoy the 25th anniversary edition of the seminal series "the power of myth" with joseph campbell. with your gift of $252 or a sustaining contribution of $21 per month.th the-d.v.d. set includes iginal release, and ann the
interview with filmmaker george lus. you'll also receive the d.v.d. of today's program.an please calgive to this station right now. thank you for your support. >> your contbution in any amount would be appreciated. swe know what the economy like, we know that some people are doing better, some people not so well. those people who are doing better, maybe it's timto look deep into your hearts and souls and say, should i bear the weight of the time i spentn front of the television with this television station pbs show that i'm watching or for it?i let someone else pay well, i think the real answer to that is, no, i probably should pay my fair sha. that's all that's being asked. and to pay to the degree that you can afford. i heard one time someone say that you should give until it hurts. i think better way to say th is to give until it makes you feel great.d
you believe that this station and pbs has been important to you and will be important in the future, the only way that it can be important in the future is if there is funding. with all the news out there today, iis very difficult to separate fact from fiction. but here you can trust what you get from your station. please give and give generously. ! want to read you a quote which you know did many people in our ce will probably know the first half, this is a ote from thomas jefferso did "whenever the people ce ware well informed "they can be trusted with their government." now that's what is usually quoted. but actually that quotation goes on, and jefferson continues, "that whenever things get so far wrong "as to attract their notice, they may be relied upon
"tsee them to rights." "that whenever things get so far wrong ed is america well info and can americans be relied upon to set the wrongs to right? - at times, at times, generalizations are generally wron and i would not say the american people are not informed, many are not, they don't want to be informed. so they move through life with a limited supply of what it take but many others .e, tit's like journali, do t speak of the media anymore because o'reilly's in the media and bill moyers is in the media and we are different journalists. but no, i think today, with the complexity of the issues, although in those days they were complex issues of forming a gernment and there was no rapid communication. i don't think people are as informed
as we need for democracy to function for government to be held accountable for huge economic institutions to be checked with balance. the whole secret of democracy is not that people are virtuous or not, it's that some are virtuous sometimes and they're not virtuous other times, and some are not virtuous and then they are. at we need is checks and balances it's the balance of power, when both parties are trying to do the right thing, or one's trying to do the wrong thing and the other's holding it account. so i don't think the american people are as a whole, are as informed as we need for democracy to work and it's very difficult today given most people spend all day making a living, holding two jobs, raising a family, trying to help in their church, trying to work as volueers at the public television station they're busy. that's why the accountability of politicians is so importoft because they're a sional people designed to solve the problems but democracy
lvshould be able to the problems it creates for itself and we're not doing that right now. u're house is on fire, don, our home here on earth is on fire our economy is not performing for millions of americans y our highstem is coming apart. we should be amse to solve those prob by depending upon the politicians and bureaucrats who we elect are employed to take those problems bythat none of us alone pocan solve and we're not,s this country is unraveling, and we need not only more information we needciore time to be activzens. change does come,ut it never comes swift td it usually comes fr bottom up. and there are people out there on the front line trying to fight climate change, trying to take on the climate deniers, trying to solve the ieoblems of our inner c thank god for them all of that. but they're up against almost insurmountable odds
and if we haona truly independent,artisan, truth telling media we'd be in a lot better shape. you know there's a great line in the play ght and day by tom stoppard, where the photographer in that play says, "people do terrible things to each other, "but it's worse when they do it in the dark." and we're settling into a dark period in american life, during which everybody's happy because we're amusing ourselves to death. we watch how many hours, i go on the subway in new york city and every week they put new posters he up are new cable television shows, and new plays on broadway and all of that. and there's so much to do and the web is constantly consuming obsessively couming people. there's so much to entertain us that as my friend the late neil postman who taught communications
at new york university said in his famous book, amusing ourselves to death, we will probably die laughing e because of the lit know. - it comes down to this issue it seems to me, bill, that it's the difference between providing people what they need to ntow versus what they o know. and the invention of, the survey, where we have asked the public what would you like to see on the news? as opposed to, damnit, this is what you're getting. because this is what you need to know in order to be a citizen and cast re onable informed opinion vote. we don't, or they, don't do ianymore. because ratings, circulation, are more important. - there's a prophet in treating viewers as consumers
instead g citizens in the gret of public television and public radio is that we still somehow with the help of people like this it's been able to hold to the idea of the americaneople as a commuumty of citizens, not cos. nc (audapplause) years ago, don, i met a professor of english a great cultural critic at yale, a man named cleanth ooks. and he talked about the bastard muses th and there were e bastard muses. propaganda, which pleads for a particular point of view sometimes une rupulously at the expe the total truth.
sentimentality, which works to create an emotional response in excess of and unwarranted by the occasion. and pornography, which focuses on one powerful drive at the expense of the whole rsonality. in that little interview i did with cleanth brooks, i don't know a long time ago, comes to my mind almost every time i try to watch theews on corporate new cobecause it isd alpropaganda, largely,y sentimentality, largely, and pornography, in the terms of its twisted view of the human being ey and ave also twisted the heart out of what it means to be a citizen. and journalism is a fallen profession, almost like the first profession it is said, bu wit is still our only hon both parties when i was in politicsi bes
the responsibility of one party to tell the truth about the other party, neither party does that today. - i would call joseph heller a curmudgeon i suppose and in your interview with him he says these sort of frightening things, here's what he said in the interview with you, "democracy we celebrate is full of illusions "such as participatory democracy," he called voting, "a ritual and a delusion that comforts us, "indispensable to our contentment but "absolutely useless in application." do you agree? - not with you absolutely, but i do believe that voting is easy and democracy's hard. democracy, so it happens, between elections in our local communities in our state hou hard. and elsewhere and it requires participation people who go to school board meetings, gg and st, and argue for what they want.
so i don't agree wholly with him. i don't believe in pure democracy, i don't believe you can put an issue out there and enough people will be able to be well informed and act on it you have to read the sentiment of the public anonthis is the terriblequence of too much money in politics. representative government is a flawed but necessary form of democracy. we send our representatives to the state house here or to washington to make the best informed judgments ths. can for their constitue they're never going to satisfy all the constituents t maybe sometimes they don't even satisfy most of the constituents but we hire them to make good judgments. today most politicians, there are exceptions fortunately, but most politicians are more responsive to the donors than they are to the voters. so that a spresentative democracy wed, t corrupted, by the fat money is the determinant
of the outcomes of politics. and that's why what's happened to representative government we need a democracy in which people feel a sense as with public television that they're well considered in the programs we'vanon't have that poliat the moment, rarely.icswe i mean we have a dysfunctional government in washington today. by the way, i do have a reverence for the constitution because they attempted to try to create a government of, by, and for the people, even though they discovered that was a very difficult thing. but they had this built-in conflict, that i didn't realize wh i was growing up, i mean the man who wrote, "all men are created equal," with his hand on that pen that was the same hand that caressed the breasts and thighs of his slave, sally hemings.
ti differen, different morality, but how could he reconcile writing these noble words, "all men are created equal," when he bedded a young woman over whom he had total domination and she had to do what he wanted her to do? they had these children together, how do you reconcile those opposites in your mind? i don't know but it is that conflict in the intelligence and decision making of the people in power that we have to constantly question. and so i have a different view of the constitution t i mean i diden know when i was growing up that it protected slavery, and that many of the founders were slave owners. slavery is woven like a dark thread through our history and our founding fathers were culpable. and the point of it is
that change has to come eo frome like us who don't take for granted or take with finality what those in power tell us anwho fight for the justice and the liberty and the equality that is mentioned in the declaration. to me the declaration is the much reater, more powerful, of the instrumentsd of our government.on. so when you keep revising, the older you get, you keep revising what you know. olthat's why living to anage ify to have your health is a wonderful, internal, and perpetual university. - final question, to you mr. moyers and that is would you repeat for them a story that joseph campbell said to you at the conclusion of all of the interviews when it was finally done. when he asked whether you intended
to stay in this line of work? - yeah we had beengether those s and i was leaving to come back, it wasimt the last time i saw because when i got back to new york and started editing i remembered i had looked at all the footage and i .hadn't asked him about g so i called him at his home in hawaii and i said, "joe i didn't ask you about god. "would you c oe to new york let's more show?" so he did, but when i was leaving, when i was leaving skywalker ranch for the last time he walked with me out to our car. and he said, "are you going to stay in this?" i t d not been certain aburnalism not been fixed in my trajectory. "are you going to stay in this work?" , and i saes, i think so," and he said, "well, good." s d, "if you want to change the world ""change the story.". mp - as joseph ll would say meta-pher, instead of metaphor, the heroes journey is one
as he describes it as, "the person man or woman "who goes out to an unknown place, "faces dangers and terrors and dram "returns with the prize after e fight s "and tells try and from the story "we then the heroes of it can begin our own heroes journey bill moyers i speak for a lot of people, but this is very personal, you are the metaphor. you are the heroes journey, and i thank you souch for being a part of this evening. - well thank you. pl (audience se) >> important information that you receive on this television
station can be entertaining. it has been entertaining. it's entertaining to your chilen, it's entertaining to you. some of the great dramas, masterpiece theater, all of that is entertainment. but when it comes to publicur affairs lism, this is the place you turn when you want to create for yourself an informed partnership. now, as a person who's worked almost a half of a century in commercial television, i can tell you this, that it is a popularity contest. they're seeking people who will watch them and in order to do that, commercial television w gives people what tht to know as opposed to what they need to know. th was part of the conversation with bill moyers. but at the same time, i need to tell you that that is not question that your station is it is not asking the question whether it is popular, it iser requesting wheou need the information it is about to
provide. you e what's on your screen right now. for $7, that's $84 a year, this d.v.d., which is the d.v.d. of the program that you're watchi right now, but i need to hasten to add for you that there is almost an hour additional information. m we talked h that we simply couldn't get it all into thisne program but we put it on the d.v.d. so you'll get to hear bill moyers continue to talk about things you're not seeing on this program. plus, we had a studio audienceth an asked questions of bill moyers which he answers in his in imitable way. p ase think about this $7 a month and make sure this is in your house. >> you know how you make sureho that is in youe, how you make sure public television is in your house, you give a contribution. this is what it's about, you come together with others in isour community that keep station strong. when you give a gift of $7 as a sustaining member with an ongoing pledge, we will be happy to sha with you thiswonderful programt
extra material that we are not able to enjoy. now, with a gift of $13 a month, this is very special because not only will you get that d.v.d. of this fascinating conversation but you will also get his companion book to his program, "bill moyers journal." every interview has a persal introduction from bill moyers, setting the scene for you, as it is. you will enjoy having it in your home. now, with a gift of $21 a month, our gift to you is a wonderful iconic series, "the power of myth." this is a six-hour seminal series that we've talked so much about with joseph campbell. not only is it that but there's extras, too. there's a 28-minute interview with george lucas and there is also a 12-page viewer guide that goes along with that. y what's up right now, though, is to decide you want to supporthis wonderful station by calling the number at the bottom of the screen and saying you want to be part of wonderful television. >> i hope you're thinking right now about the importance ofti
this s to you and your family, what it means, what it me of your family's growth, what it's meant to you personally and whether you wan to be personally involved in supporting the kind of programming that you have come to expect from this station. i hope you're thinking about that and i want you know that there is not a great deal left in this program, and we would like to ask you to support this station so that we can continue with this. i hope that you would support m wiey this station in order to make sure that kind of programming continues on pbs. i hope you will think very, very hard right now abou getting up, picking up the phone or going to the website and making your donation right now. to become a member of something that is alrey a part of your community. >> sustaining membership is an easyeconvenient and affordabl way to support the programs you
love. ongoing monthly contrie an from either their credit card or checking account. just choose the monthlamount you would like to give. then go online or call and we'll get it set up for you.io your donwill happen automatically each month so your support will always be current. current. if you want to change your sustaining membership, just contact us. monthly contributions begin as low as $5 per month. go online or call to start your sustaining membership right now. ♪ music >> you keep great conversationst comingyour financial contribution to this station today. make a monthly sustaining gi of $7 or a one-time donation of $84 and we'll thank you with a hv.d. of this program, wh includes nearly an hour of additional conversation, plus questions and answers with bill moyers. with a monthly sustaining gift of $13, or a donation of $156
right now, you'll enjoy the program d.v.d. plus the book "bill moyers' journal, the conversation continues." with 43 in-depth interviews from his popular tv series. enjoy the 25th anniversary edition of the seminal series, "the power of myth" with joseph campbell. with youre gift of $252, or a sustaining contrution of $21 per month. new footage not seen in thees original release, and an interview with filmmaker george lucas. you'll also receive the d.v.d. of today's program. isplease call and give to station right now. station right now. thank you for your support. y think about the fuel of your automobile, whether you're ing some kind of petroleum or using the energy of the sun org usttery power, or a combination thereof, it is h much power you can put into a
vehicle that tells you how good th performance is going to be. that's kind of a long way of saying that it is your contribution that powers your station, that powers pbs. the more power you put into it, the greater the performance you're going to get out of it. so if then that pbs is doing --p so if you think th is doing a pretty good job right now, just think what it would do if it had the resources, fit had the participation of every member in the community who relies on what goes on on pbs and on your station. think about how much ihas meant to you over the years, how much it means now. support your public television station. support your local station right now for programs like this and all of the other programs that you joy, howyou do it is call the nn the bottom of your screen or you go online, whatever works for you and your family's budget. perhaps you would like tosu
ort with a gift of $7 a month as a sustaining member and get the d.v.d. of the wonderful program that we're enjoying. or the gift of $13 a month andon no get that d.v.d. but also get the bill moyers' journal, the companion book to that with 43 interviews. or maybe $21 a month would work for you and your family's budget and you would like to ve "the power of myth" t enjoy along with the programg, that we're watch conversation with bill moyers." these are all suggested levels. what's really important is you choose an amount that works for you and your family and call the number on the bottom ofyo screen or go online right now to show your support. >> whether your favorite programs are the costume dramas that you love so much, you like downton abbey, victoria, you like mr. selfridge, you like these programs or you like the science programsyou like nova, or maybe you like frontline, the question is, are you one of those people who fit
in the categorat the end or the beginning of each program that says, this program is made possible by the followinger foundations and viewlike yoch when you whese programs, are you one of the viewers they are talking about? did you make a contribution? are you shirttailing on someone else's contribution? are you confusing pbs and this station with commercial to do is sit through sou have commercials? you don't see commercials on these stations. n you wi see that on pbs. what you will see is content lllike no other content yo receive. nowhere, not on cable television, not on commercial tevision. it's time, as we end the end of this program, it is time to make the decision to donate now so tt at the end of the program when you see "this program has been made available by people like you" e one of those people.
>> he want to thank everyone who's called tonight. appreciate that phone call so very much. but if you haven't calle there's still time for you, but now is the time to make the decision to go from being a viewer to being a contributor,eb to being sy who makes programs like this possible. think about all the progra that you and your family enjoy in your home.f name them yourself. i bet this is a lot, isn't there? think about the value that that brings to you, think how much t you enjoy turning s station and being enlightened, learning something you didn't know before or maybe watching a child's face as they are introduced to a concept they have never heard before, the delightful giggles as they learn something brand-new. llthat's all here and it's possible because of you. you are the power in public television so won't you make that donation right now? won't you make that phone call?o
a supporting member today. >> make a donation to this station and to pbs, it counts. it does make a difference. the level that we can supply great information, great public information, greatublic policy information, great drama episodes, l of the great science and wildlife shows,e that makes a differesed on your donation. m $7th, you can get this conversation with bill moyers, which you've been watching she but i want to remind you that it contains almost an hour of additional programming, additional conversation with bill moyers.we e in an interesting, interesting period in our history and it is time to develop an informed opinion. he's had 83 years to develop that opinion and we've been the beneficiaries of that, in his search for truth, objectiv truth. not faith and belief but truth.
to find something that is undeniable. if two plus two is four, that's a fact. it wouldn't be five or seven, based on what the political whims or what someone believes. it would be for. that's the kind of reporting that you get here. and you will hear him here, you'll hear him here before you hear him anywhse feel so we're asking you to think and think seriously about supporting this station. make sure that this kind of programming continues throughout, for your children and for your grandchildren. ) (audience applau (upbeat music)
steves: orvieto, umbria's grand hill town, sits majestically, high above the valley floor a big chunk of tufa -- a soft and easy-to-cut volcanic stone. a handy funicular shuttles visitors from orvieto's train station and g free park-and-ride loton r up to the town. more and more european towns are dealing with their traffic and parking congestion by making life frustrating anexpensive for anyone who insists on driving into the old center. public transit is designed to reward those who park outside of town. from the top, a bus connects with the funicular t d drops people ri the cathedral square. pedestrian-frilanes make exploring the town a joy. inviting sho show off orvieto's famous and colorful ceramics. the cathedral -- or duomo, as they say in italian --
gets my vote for italy's liveliest facade. this gleaming mass of mosaics and sculpture is a circa-1330 class in world history, back when no one dared estion intelligent desig ea things start with on. eve is tempted by satan disguised as a snake, and so on, right up to judgment day. inside, the striped nave appears longer than it is. that's because the architect designed the nave wider at the back and narrower at e altar. windows of thin-sliced alabaster bathe the interior in a soft light. adjacent the altar, the chapel of st. brizio is orvieto's one
mustee artistic sight. it features luca signorelli's frescoes of the apocalypse. the vivid scenes depict events at the end of the world, but they also reflect the turbulent political and religious atmosphere of italy in the la 1400s. the nearby city of florence had become a theocracy run by the austere and charismatic monk savonarola. his ultrac servative teachings larized christians, bringing tension to the church. in "the sermon of the antichrist," a crowd gathers around a man preaching from a pedestal. it's the antichrist, representing savonarola, who comes posing as jesus to mislead the faithfu this befuddled antichrist forgets his lines mid-speech, but the devil is on hand to whisper what to say next. his words sow wickedness throughout the world, from a corrupt woman taking money to evil figures running rampant
to mass executions. then, on judgment day, trumpeting angels blow a wake-up call, and skeletons of the dead climb dreamily out of the earth to be clothed in new bodies. across the chapel, the saved gather happily in heaven, enjoying a holy string quartet. facing them, the damned experience the horrible mosh pit of hell. devils torment sinners in graphic detail, while winged demons control the airspace overhead. a demon turns to tell his frightened passenger exactly what he's got planned for her. signorelli's ability to tell stories through human actions and gestures, rather than symbols, inspired his younger contemporary, michelangelo, who meticulousdied signorelli's work.