tv Charlie Rose PBS May 20, 2011 11:00pm-12:00am PDT
>> rose: welcome to our programme. tonight an encore presentation with singapore's founding father and global statesman lee kuan yew, last week he resigned as minister-of-be mentor after his party's election win. he said it was time for the younger generation to carry singapore forward. i spoke with him in singapore earlier this march. we talked about the rise of china, u.s. leadership, singapore's political system and his leadership. tonight we show you that conversation again. >> will singapore have and can it under what you want to see a true democracy? >> american style. >> rose: yes. >> no. >> rose: what is an american style democracy? >> your first amendment says
you can say anything you like. >> rose: yes. you can't have that. >> you cannot say anything you like about religion, race and culture. they are forbidden. they are sensitive issues, you cause a stir and you are in big trouble. >> rose: an encore presentation of lee kuan yew next. >> funding for charlie rose was provided by the following: every story needs a hero we can all root for. who beats the odds and comes out on top. but this isn't just a hollywood storyline. it's happening every day, all across america. every time a storefront opens. or the midnight oil is burned. or when someone chases a dream, not just a dollar.
they are small business owners. so if you wanna root for a real hero, support small business. shop small. additional funding provided by these funders: captioning sponsored by rose communications from our studios in new york city, this is charlie rose. this is the singapore's white house, except it is not a residence. it is a place for meetings. i have come here to meet lee kuan yew, the founder of modern singapore and a man much admired for making his city a prosperous country and an economic power. although some criticized his method, he has no regrets
for the choices he made to build singapore. i have interviewed him three times. he is 88 now and walks carefully. his beloved wife of 63 years died last year. his son is the prime minister, the sharpness that made singapore is very much present. i have come here like so many others to talk about the world today, about america and china, about the middle east and asia, and singapore. he understands life's clock which makeses it a time to look back and to look forward. we begin with the future which is always been his his subject. how do you see it, this arab spring. >> well, the analysis that i have read, the one i find most credible, arab states still remain tribal. the ones that are nations morocco, tunisia and egypt.
there is an egyptian nation. >> rose: right. >> there is no libyan nation. there are multiple tribes. so when this nations change the leadership, a nation remains and a new leadership emerges. not tribal. whether it is military dictatorship or civilian with the military behind it. you don't see dem soc sock-- democracy taking root because there is no history of counting votes. >> rose: so what will happen? >> do you think that these revolutions can be hijacked whether it's egypt or whether it's -- >> hijacked by whom? rose: by people who are
on the side ofhe protestors or by people like in egypt's case, whether the mlim brotherhood will do well in the elections? >> the muslim brotherhood always a force underground. in a free ectio, if there was they were to participate, they have never prove add that they can carry the majority. >> rose: but some say they're better organized than anybody else. >> yeah, that's all right. th still haven't got the majority. because the egyptian population is-- . >> rose: what impact if any do you think this will have on the appeal of fundamental islami radicallism? >> it will encourage radicals iother islic states but t people don't think that's the solution to
their problems. >> rose: they don't think fundamentalist islam is the solution to their problem. >> how you can solve it. you have to face the problems of the modern world. growth, jobs, an adjustment to different social values and cultures in a globalized village. >> rose: do you think the president has explained ou interest, the united stes interest in this well? >> well, the french have taken the ad. they know the area well. sarkozy is i think very courageusly go ahead regardless of what the u.s. was willing to do. >> rose: by recognizing the rebels. >> yes. i think he knows that if qaddafi stays there-- . >> rose: they can't let qaddafi stay, can they. >> they made him a war
criminal. so how can he leave? without ending up in the hague. so somebody has got to see him and tweak that problem, finesse th problem. they cannot let him stay. i agree with that completely. if they let him stay, there will be a two-state libya, he with his clan and then the majority of the tribes against him. and constant warring. >> rose: back to the american president. is it dilemma for us that we choose to do something where libya is involved but not where bahrain is involved or certainly not if saudi arabia -- >> no, no, i know bahrain. i know saudi arabia, i know libya. two different categories. libya is tribal with a dictator on top. saudi arabia is feudal with
a king top. with massive oil wealth which is used to keep his people happy. bahrain is a sunni minority feuding over-- ruling over shi'a ma jort. where the shi'as confront it, the sunni rers with the encouragement of iran to get a bigger share of power. which will have repercussions on saudi arabia because the oil wells to the et are all shi'a. saudi a yab-- arabia can-- and put it down. but they are two different types of problems. i would go along with what saudi arabia and bahrain and what is being done in libya-- i think libya, more has to be
done to resolve the problem with qaddafi. >> is there a humanitarian reason to do this? >> the way he has kill kd his own people has made him war criminal. i mean he has been branded a war criminal. >> rose: so he has no choice but to fight to the end. >> that's right. >> rose: there's no way he can buy his way out or anything else? >> well, you can't see, i mean in the end he may do a plea bargain. but who will take him? >> rose: what does t world want from the united states in 2011? >> still leadership. >> rose: leadership? >> yes. because you are the only mover-and-shaker with with the wherewithal. china is the second largest economy bu chinaoes not
have the projections or worldwide interesto concentrate on the areas that needs oil or other resours. >> rose: yeah, but you have said china's intent, intent is to be the greatest power in the world. >> there's no doubt about that. but it will take them more than ten years. >> rose: how long do you think they will be the world's greatest economic power in 20 years. >> that doesn't make them the technological power in 20 years. they are still behind the u.s. they put a man into space, a prodigious effort on their part. >> rose: is the face-off between china and the united states going to come primarily in the pas civic. is that where the struggle will be? >> i don't think there will be a face-off. >> rose: i don't mean a military conflict but i mean a struggleor -- >> a struggle for influence,
yeah. >> i think it will be subdued struggle. because the chinese need the u.s. chinese need u.s. rkets, need u.s. technology, need to have the student go to u.s. t study u.s. way and means of doing business so that they can kim prove. and it's going to take them 10, 20, 30 years. if they become enemies with the u.s. all that information and technogical capabilities will be cut off from them so it will be maintained at the level which allows them to still tap the u.s.. >> rose: you knew ping well, what would he be doing today? would he be any different than you had jintao. >> i cannot say because dung chow ping was a different generation and what he says
goes. the journalist was not question him. the political leaders do not question him. he is supreme. hu ching tau is not supreme. >> you know what fascinates me about the chinese is that i read that ping pretty much dictated his successors and even chose hu jintao. >> yes, bus hu jintao put down the rebellion in tibet. effectively. d that impressed ping. >> rose: but-- did not want jintao. >> he wanted somebody more like him. >> how would you define more like him. >> well, more sav other
fair. there was-- with a friendly face like hu jintao-- you know, it's a bit wooden. he keeps his professional smile. you don't know whether it is a smile of-- it is a different character all together. >> without dow like in the chines leadership today? >> i like them all. i have to. >> rose: you have to. but of all the chinese leaders the one i like. >> there was talk he may stay on even though he vi 5. >> if i was tm i would keep them on. you haven't got anybody near
him. practical, hardheaded, humorous, quick -- and makes the right decisionses it from the chinese point of view. >> and he's had some success. >> yes, yes. >> and other things. do you think they'll keep him on, give him -- >> well, i i was them i will keep them on. do you think state capitalism will be the model for the future. the economic model for the future. >> for china. >> for many countrieses that might want to follow china. >> no, no. >> at it not your company. >> the salary's intact-- their capital and
your shares, the states involved. en the other stakeholders also make sure that you are on the ball. you've got to stay focused. so i believe very strongly that ivate capitalism even-- . >> rose: define what singapore has. >> more and more private capitalism. we started off with ste capitalism because we did not have the entrepreneurs. our entrepreneurs are traders. and traders have no capital and do no have the foresight or the capability to sink in capital for many years before return comes in. so the state sent out its best officers who were entrepreneurial and started
off national shipping lines lines, singapore airlines. we have privatizedthem. >> rose: singapore has a very good relationship with china. a long history that. how about your neighbors. how about malaysia. >> they want to make flends with the chinese too. and they are learning chese and using their chinese to learn to be the front-runner. >> rose:ow about sth korea. >> south korea has the biggest student population. >> rose: biggest student population. >> yeah, their parents are opening companies there and they've got to understand the chinese language. >> rose: so the south koreans are sending their studts to china. the chinese are sending their students to america.
>> an elsewhere. >> rose: and elsewhere, europe. >> yeah. >> rose: south korea, how about indonesia. >> indonesia depends on the indonesian china east-- chinese. >> rose: vietnam. >> vietnam is a long history of nonfriendliness. not just political reasons. take motorbikes, a free-trade agreement with china, their motorbikes, they would be wiped out. the chinese motorbike will be cheaper and better. >> rose: so they can't have a free-trade agreement. >> no, no, not only can they not have a free-trade agreement, they cannot really get close to china. >> rose: are most of the
countries in the asian region scared of china? wary of china? >> wary i would say is the word. not scared. wary and if you kn u take a ste which hurts their core interest, there will be retribution. >> rose: they will shut off their marks to your good. >> yes, that's the least they can do. >> rose: that's the least. what else? >> cut off your businessmen. >> rose: doing business there. >> rose: so that economic stick is always there. >> absolutel i means that's not pretend. at one point 3 million customers with a growing income, attractive. do you want to miss the boat. and they're going to have a growing middle class.
so out of it you have lost something. >> rose: the growing chinese middle class is good for everybody though. >> oh, yes. >> rose: it makes a consumer demand that everybody wants a piece of. >> exactly. >> rose: including india. >> i'm not sure. >> rose: you're not sure india does. >> because y're scared of the competition. the chinese have offered the india a free-trade agreement. the indians have not sflape sflaped-- apped at it because then chinese gds will g into india and compete. and the chinese car will knock out the maruti. >> rose: what should the united states do? should it be rushing into asia saying we want free-trade agreements with everybody? we want to give you an economic opportunity with us? >> yes, i would do that. >> rose: that's a first step. >> i would do that. >> rose: what else? >> would i would say make
friends with al don't take sides. you gain nothing by takg sides. you can't change the dynamics. but naturally you will be wanting to help the weaker players. >> rose: what did you think of secretary clinton's speech in hanoi? >> i thought it was good. she put on-- she drew the red line. -- it must go by the law of the sea not just brute force. >> rose: the chinese are so up set that we have -- >> they produced an old map. >> rose: that said these are ours, navigational rights within and sheame in and said -- >> you go b the law of the sea. whh means where is neares to-- . >> rose: exactly. but here's an interesting question.
some people looked at that and especially some chinese and said by going to hanoi and making that speech, it was an insult to us. >> no. i mean they would rather not have that speec made at all. >> rose: yeah, of urse. but it wasn't rubbing it into them, intoheir eyewitnesses supposing she made it in beijing. would that have made it less of a disappointment? >> rose: but was this also the united states saying to china, you are not going to cooperate with you at every turn. was it a message to china? >> well yes, of course. i think the chinese are aware that it is in the interest of the united stays and this contest for allegiance of the other countries in asia to try and
equal the bounds by making sure that india and the other states do not become too dependent on cna. in the case india, she was able to go and build up the navy, the india ocean in place of the chinese navy. >> rose: and the united states i adding to its submarine fleet. the united states is has mo of a military presence than it had. >> yes. but it's a standoff. supposing you have a fight with the chinese over taiwan. and you win. is that the end of the problem? there will be a second round, a third round, a fourth round. because they have aya biding interest which you do not have because of geography
and demmography and compelling interests. so i think it's really to trim the sharp edges of the chinese. keep them relatively less aggressive. but a conflict will not help. >> rose: china will be creating a huge market because of the number of people that become middle class, 1.3 billion growing. >> are there risks for them? >> well, they have enormous problems. a disparity in income betweethe coastal cities and inland provinces disparity in income between the people who are either p in the cities and the people at the bottom of the
coastal cities. rapid growth leads to this very big-- and ty have to watch that cefully or they might get severe discontent and civil disorder. >> rose: could an arab spring come to china? >> not likely. the public security is so comprehensive and tight, they call this a velvet revolution. when they talk of this in the a ran world. some people put it on facebook and say let's gather. and they were put down before anybody could gather anywhere. >> rose: and theyightened up things, especially foreign journalism after the events in egypt. >> i don't know about that but i wouldn't be surprised.
no, they' not interested what the world thinksof them. th're interested in their own internal stability and good order and success. >> rose: is there different chinese attitude abou the future than the united states. >> they do not believe that what works for theman work for other people. if you want to try my system, gohead. but i have special circumstances that allow the system. i'm not interested in channg regimes. i deal with you as you are whether are you a dictatorship, whether you are a tribal leader or whatever. maintain good relations. i need your oil. i need your resources. let's do business. there is no he advantagelistic -- dning he-- he
advantage liss ting urge. >> they want to sell their values and believe in their values it always has been and always will be. >> rose: kind-of-missionary zeal. >> yeah, that the world can be made a bigger and better place if everybody becomes like america. which i don't think it can be. but you want to try, go ahead. >> rose: some people look at china and they say there's been no google formed in china. there's been no facebook developed in china, no microsoft developed in china. and that says something about their educational system. >> partly the educational system but partl because there is very tight corol at the top. they do not like the establisd order to be tinkered with. if it's working fine, leave it. and anybody that has something good will borrow it andest it out. why take the risk.
ey're let's play it safe. if you let 1.3 billion smart guys experimenting, you will have chaos. and they are capable of thinking up new this. i give you an example. i go on the computer for translations now in the chinese and vice versa. >> rose: yes. >> and it is all done free. the chinese have done it. siku is--ou can do wonders with it. there are many such thing you can, anything you want to do on the internet, there is no need to go to google. you can go to pitu. >> rose: the chinese search engine, a large one too. they o 60 to 70% of the chinese market. >> that's right.
>> rose: what do you think of what china did to google. >> well, they didn't want googem to become-- google to become a vehicle for subversion, what they called subversion, the of ideas. >> rose: do you think th're too paranoid? chinese fear or any government is chaos. it's a huge country canned you cannot control everything. you cannot microcontrol it. so you just stop it. >> rose: let's talk about singapore. so you agreed to sit down with seven or eight journalists from the straight times, a well-known newspaper here in singare. and said now talk about anything. and then they published this book. did you do that because you
were worried that the young people did not understand singapore and you wanted to make sure you got to them. >> yes, i think. i'm worried that they believe that we have a riot-- and. >> rose: that we can go on autopilot. >> it's not possible. >>ose: what are you worried about? >> the base is a very narrow one. 700 and something square kilometers. and built this 100 store ed i fis. and you keep that base steady. you might be able to go up to 150. if youinker aroun and believing that is forever, it might come tumbling down. so please remember this base is narrow and so margins of error are small. so make sure when you reach a decision, you haveot a
fallback. >> rose: some people say that singapore has crystallized the question what price for prosperity and security? >> yes. >> rose: that's the question that you have. >> we've had to tackle that question. >> rose: and how have you gone that? >> first to make sure that there is no instability. we have the different races live together peacefully. different religionsnot clash. disparate income groups mingled in the same mix as-- no ghettos. you can go around singapore i challenge you to find a ghetto. because the rich and the poor, otr than superrich who own private homes, they
are all living in one milieu, same shops, same playing fields, same schools. there's a level playing field for everyone. the most important is schooling, health, housing. that has been achieved and that has to be maintained. but i've always had to put restrictions on the tendency for people to gather. >> rose: you don't want them living in ghettos. >> no, they gather together. so indians getting to, chain ease get together and just entire blocs. then you've got a problem. so every block you have a quarter that reflects a percentage of the population of the various races. wily nilly su have neighbors who are chinese, indian,
malasi, and the children haveot to know them, go to the same schoo. so it's a structural device, a social device, social structure that fosters yo to understandhe different races and make you quite used together. >> rose: where did you get these political ideas of yours. >> well, i watched them after two or three riots. >> rose: after two or three riots. >> yeah, yeah there were riots. with these enclaves and they were poor and dirty no sanitation. >> rose: this was before 64-- '65 or after. >> no, before. >> rose: so you began to
form an idea that you thought you would like to see singapore become before malaysia in 1960. >> oh, yes, indeed. and we hoped we could make malaysia the same but malaysia not want that. they want a malayse society with the malaise dominance. now they've got a serus problem because the chinese and the indians are separate from them. go to separate schools. chinese go and learn chinese. indians learn malay. they live in different places. they've got disparate communities. where we havene community. one, i'm not saying we are one tion yet. but we are one society. >> rose: and you have made speeches including in this year promoting the idea of the kind of social cohesion of multiple parties and multiple ethnic.
>> yes, without that, you get no progress. if you are fighting each other all the time, how can you get progress? >> rose: but do you worry that if, in fact, there is more political discourse among the young that it will lead to racial politics? >> no. they can have all the discourse they like. but race, language and religion please tread carefully. >> rose: how do you tread carefully? >> you know that these are sensitive issues. and you don't want to kick up a hornet nest. i sit in that box, i think that muslims should be relakesed and eat together with the others. >> rose: and created a firestorm. and your son said, the prime minister, differed with you. >> that's right. >> rose: so were you right or was your son right? >> he has to be right, he's
the prime minister. >> rose: but? >> but you asked the person in the street what i said is true. >> rose: and they would say -- >> you are sir. >> rose: were you born of a well to do family. >> well, we weren't poor. >> re: y went to cambridge to law school. >> yes. >> rose: did you then think that you wanted to go into politics? >> yes. because i saw no reason why the british should run the place. i competed with them. i knew them as a society. and i think given the chance we will do better because we know the people better than they do. >> rose: so you joined to help be part of an anti-cole connialist people's party. >> yes. >> and we have done better than the british ever did. because they mixed up the people and comned.
the british kept us segregated and built the place. the amount of the areas chinese live here, malaise lived here, iians lived here. arabs lived here. in the 19th century, they were very dispaate people and they didn't want riots. so we segregate them. but i have got to make one society out of the peoe. i have got to understand each other, even though they don't like each other. >>nd that's w you think it's fragile. >> yes, of course. it's not in the dna yet. it's enforced by sheer living conditions. physical living conditions and every day intermingling. same schools.
same playing fields, same shopping centres. same neighbors. >> when you were at cambridge you met and married your remarkable wife without died in october. she was a political partner of yours in a sense. >> yes. >> rose: she edited and listened and helpedou with the speeches and everything else. >> yes, she collected my-- . >> rose: she raised a family too. >> yes. >> rose: you have described yourself as a kept man. >> which i was cause she was earning more money than i did. >> rose: as a lawyer. >> yes. >> rose:he was with you in 1965. >> yes. >> rose: when you actually cried on television. >> yeah. >> rose: what were you crying about? i cried because an idea and ideal was shaered.
th we would have a nonracial society in malaysia and singapore. and we had already made moves and mobilized a large partf e population, the chinese, indians and some malays e to standing and working for a mall ashean malaysia, and that was the end of our enterprise. >> rose: so you were crying over the anguish that of what might have been couldn't be. >> yeah, and i had to leave behind all the people that mobilized. they were left leaderless. >> rose: did you dream it could be what it is today? >> not in the actual form it is. because the forms have been the physical landscape has
been the result of technological improvements, imported from outde. as the globalized village allowed uso ha balt and all the rest of it. but that we have an intermingled population, one society, that was planned. that was t aim. it's still a work in progress but it should continue to work. >> rose: someone said that you built a first class oasis in a third world region and you've been praised for your efficiency at incorrupt ability but accused by human-rights groups of limiting political freedom and intimidating through leibel lawsuits. >> how can you intimidate through libel lawsuits.
it's riddick list. loyalists will tell you is either leibel in which case i can win the case and it is not and the judge will throw it out and i hav to pay damages. >> rose: but are you prepared to be a litigious fellow. >> yes. rather than have to knock them down politically. i go to court and say i'm here, cross-examine me. as the plaintiff i'm saying that what you said is the a packet of lies. here i am. now put meto cross-examination. >> rose: you have also said that while you might have done tngs in retrospect that you shouldn't have done, you always did them for the honorable reasons. >> looking back, i think i might have done better. >> rose: like? >> like not forcing the pace
of getting peopleo change their languages. >> rose: you made english the language. >> yeah. we were speaking in multiple tongues like salt and pepper. chinese speekting so many dialects,alayse speaking three, four indonesian dialects. and english a smattering, a very bad form of english. >> rose: this is why you were against what they call singlish. >> yes, i still am. >> rose: you still are. >> uh-huh. >> rose: even though the youth sort of have their own language. >> no, you want a language which you can communicate to with the world easily. if you peek your own-- of english, you are disadvantaging yourself. i once ghent to jamaica for a commonwealth conference can.
and i will never forget this. they took over an american holiday resort, so all the cooks and so on were blacks. good cosnd they spoke in a quaint accent. and so i went out to watch the fisherman bring the fish in. so i asked him, what kind of fish. >> -- i said what's that. >> -- >> i said oh, they are s shall sprx rats well, that was the result of an amalgamation of many african dialects of the slave masters language. we inherit the english
language from the british. in this society we decided to make it the working language. and chinese, malay, india, whatever, the second language. >> rose: are you worried today about the declining birth rate? >> nothing can be done about it. >> rose: nothing. >> it's a lifestyle change. the women are educated. they're completely independent. they don't marry until they are in their mid 30s, late child bearing. >> rose: he's my impression. that you because you have shown results believe that the prime minister became senior minister became minister, mentor knows best and feels strongest about what's good for singapore. and worries most about threats against it.
>> yeah. what is best, i don't see singapore-- what is best to see singaporeontinue to thrive and prosper. >> and you have overwhelming the local population. we haven't got that yet. the americans are only 30% and i think we should never allow them to become near 50%. and they will cnge us. >> what would you do to make sure. >> how do dow that? >> immigration restrictions. >> yes. >>s that what it's going to come to? >> just taking the high quality people. >> are you worried a bit that singaporeans because of all this prosperity are becoming a bit soft? >> no, not soft. they are becoming substantive. >> or king for granted -- >> n, they are hardworki,
rd driving, enjoy life, travel, have a good time. they work hard. and they play hard. they are not going soft. >> rose:ou have said with respect that they don't feel the spur in their hide. >> that's because they don't think it's necessary to strife any more. we are already here. we have arrived. our standard of living won't go down. >> rose: so what is your message to them when they say that. >> just needs more than an autopilot. they run into storms. they run into air pockets. and the pilot and copilot and spare pilots are they on boar and passengers are alive and awake and alert. >> i sense you are worried.
>> i'm worried because if we-- if they, rather, the new leaders and the population as a whole do not realize the small base on which this is built, and they take liberties to that, it could go down quickly spiral down a vicious circle down. >> rose: quickly. >> yes. standardof living will go up, confidence will disappear, investments will disappear. >> rose: so your legacy is that you have preded over, encouraged, lead this prosperity. you're deloping lacys you want to make sure that it is sustainable. >> i want to make sure that this place always commands confidence. confidence brings in investments and brings in talent. with investments and talent we will prosper.
that confidence should never be jeopardized by riots, civil comotion, strife of any kind. >> rose: strife of any kind. >> yeah. >> not necessary. >> rose: can singapore, will singore have and can it under what you want to see a true democracy? >> american style? >> yes. >> no. we -- >>hat is an arican style democracy. >> the first amendment says you can say anything you like. >> yes. >> rose: you can't have that. >> you cannot say anything you like about religion, race, and culture. they are forbidden. they are sentive. they've got issues. you cause a stir. and you are in big trouble. >> rose: so that's the price you pay for prosperity and security? >> no. those are no go areas, red
line. >> rose: you can't go there. >> yeah. >> re: do you wish you would have a bigger fishbowl to achieve your miracle in. this is a small island. it's 40 minutes from one end to the other. >> it's very difficult to have a little piece of --. >> rose: what is it that makes you this strategic thinker that people come to for advice. >> first i do not believe people to me to seek advice. they come to me to bounce ideas. to test them out. what is it you have? >> experience. i'm 88. i have lived long.
and i've not forgotten my mistakes. >> pirro: you and i talked about america's deficit and debt problem. and it's seeming political dysfunction do anything about it. >> i sll am. i still am worried. >> pirro: . >> rose: how do you see it? somehow the leaders think they can tweak the problem without paying and they are afraid to tell the people look, we've got to do this. we've got to make these cuts over the period of "x" number of years, five, six, seven. that's the only way. otherwise it keeps on growing and your interest rates burden will go with
it. >> in not dealinging with the core problems of entitlements and security. >> yes. >> all that,. >> i mean the baby boomers have to be recognized in the world. they expect it, it is not the rld they're living in. >> so they have do what? >> they have to forego the kind of benefits. >> the kind of benefits as well as theate of con skuferp shun. >>eah. >> otherwise you keep on going. >> you believe that if we do not do something about it we become a -- >>ou become an indon't-- indebted couny. >> we arealready a indebted country. >> you become more indebted. eventually you have inflation. you are indebt -- indebd in aifferent way fro other countries. other countries borrow u.s. dollars or pounds or euros and they have to pay back.
you owe yourself u.s. dollars. so you are under no pressure to pay back. but are you under pressure from such a huge amount of currency floating around that you get inflation. >> the chinese fear inflation too. >> but there is for a different be. there's a property prices, sectional imbalances. >> rose: should the united states be worried abouthe fact that the chinese hold so much debt of our debt and therefore i think secretary clton had said you know, it's hard to negotiate with your banker within yes. because your banker, you can't ca ford to see you go
down. and they know that. >> rose: is it possible that the united states and china will find a way to cooperate on all these huge issues ke climate and environment and other bigransnational issues? >> yes. i think so. but not completely. i mean they know that-- disappear, the rebels are more seasonal. and that means the nonrainy season, no crop so they have got to do something about it just for their own domestic interests. but can they stop building two coal powered stations a day? if that's the energy they need? they are faced with a
dilemma. yes, they are going in for wind, sun, turbines, sea power. but they see growth as essential, 8%, to keep the momentum and unemployment down. >> it will be 8%, not double digits. >> well, not double digits. >> not any more, more like seven or eight. >>t isaid about you that you are increasingly aware of mortality. >>h, i've been so for some time. at 88 how long more have i got? >> but you're not a religious man. >> no, but that doesn't stop me from contemplating the ultimate. >> re: and what do you think when you contemplate?
>> as the life i lived in worth while, have i made the world around me or those who depended on my decisions giving them a better life? am i happy with my family? i think are most of them i give myself a b plus. that's enough. >> rose: youlso said once that you do not judge a man until the coffinloses because he might do something foolish. >> that's right. so i've got to be very careful