tv Quadriga - The International Talk Show LINKTV March 22, 2018 10:00pm-10:31pm PDT
further escalation of the crisis? the question is, putin reelected, a toxic presidency? we want to answer that question beginning with dw's own christian trippe. he says it is wrong to demonize vladimir putin, start planning for a post-putin russia. we also welcome gemma porzgen, commentator for the -- she says -- posener says his army of internet trolls poisons the political atmosphere in the west. 's aim is to paralyze democracy. -- his aim is to paralyze democracy. gemma says, it's always the same reflects: whenever happens, it was mcow.
this is the first offensive use of a nurse -- nerve agent in europe since world war ii. are you shocked, alan? alan: i'm not shocked, disgusted. it is stupid to say you are shocked. this will happen sooner or later. the couple of years ago, another ex-russian spy was poisonewith polonium in london. nuclear, if you will, a weapon used against britain, and now they have used a chemical weapon against britain. this is the face of russian imperialism. leaders of the u.k., france, and germany have come out with aoierve agent attack as an assault on u.k. sovereignty. they say it is highly likely that russia was behind it.
you say that russia always gets the blame. you seemed to be doubting that russia is to blame. gemma: it is too early to judge. we didn't have any proof so far. one needs a statement of solidarity. i was shocked and i think the british people in salisbury were shocked that something like this could happen in their country. it is a difficult situation for may. iu need to react somehow but think it would have been better to wait -- peter: you said that russia always gets the blame. why does russia always get the blame? gemma: i find there is a certain as istype of russians, often said in british media, even british politicians. there should be more differentiation between what is the kremlin, when on a certain
networks -- we don't know, . the secret service. once shouldn't -- one shouldn't be so fast. sometimes it isn't just what you want, especially because it was before the elections. a lot of people in the kremlin were quite happy to show, we are have blamed again, and to a certain atmosphere that makes russians feel that we are always blamed without proof. peter: the russians will surely say, why would we do this in an election year at an election christian: i would like to comment, there is another typical pattern of how moscow reacts when things like this referring to when the spy was poisoned with polonium ago, look at what happened in the eastern ukraine when the malaysian airline was
shot down killing 300 passengers. there is a lot of evidence that a russian-made missile shot the plane down and russia always reacts in the same pattern, it is foreseeable. it happens again now. claiming that they didn't do it, accusing others, and refusing to accept an international expertise of the process. there were voices from russia two days ago, the deputy foreign minister, which is not the official position of the kremlin, but a deputy foreign minister said that russia will not accept what the u.n. the queion was, why would russia do it now? why would they do it in election time? why would they do it in the buildup to the world cup? we have calls from
great britain and the foreign secretary who want to boycott the world cup. they want the european union to boycott. why do russians do it? it is speculation. but russians tonight behind their leader in a strong nationalist way when they feel they are being attacked. peter: if russia is behind the attack, why now? i don't understand. to ask mr. putinot that. stalin who said, -- created nization for which mr. putin worked as a young man. citing ivan the terrible, the only thing people remember about him is that he dealt with his
enemies and he was feared. thats what we remember of stalin. that is what putin wants to be remanded for. he deals with he is enemies and he -- remembered for. he deals with his enemies and he is feared. the election results were foreseeable and he could use it. on the one hand, people who admire mr. putin will say he deals with his emies. people who don't agree with mr. putin will say, we are being attacked again so we will vote for the strong man who supports russia. it is win-win for him. there is no way the west can not run into the trap. either we can do nothing and prove that we are weak, or we react with strong words and say the truth, russia is behind this, andhen people accuse us of always singling out moscow.
we always single out moscow because it happens to be moscow who does these terrible things. gemma: i find this pattern of thinking dangerous. is veryuch co w we live in afent world. alan: my thinking is an dangerous. poisoning people is dangerous. gemma: it is sure that poisoning people is dangerous but i think it would be helpful to see russia not always as a continuation of the soviet union, even if there are certain things happening where there could be that the kremlin is behind this. i wouldn't exclude this, but i think it is important for the british people that you have more in your hands than the british government had. only now are people coming and really looking into this thing. in 10 days, we will know what it is about. peter: one thing that we know, there a l of work to clear
up the crucial data about the attack on sergei skripal. it thing that is clear is, is reminiscent of a similar poisoning incident in 2006. rerehe images. --sergeiges show in skripal in a supermarkehours before he and his daughter were attacked in salisby with a nerve agent. memories of a former russian agent who was murdered in 2006. his tea was poisoned with radioactive polonium. an inquiry into his death said it was likely that putin ordered the assassination. his widow also accuses him. >> it was a message from russia. toon't like that we have wait for another death to understand what we have to do.
>> is there a pattern to these attacks? christian, is there a pattern? is there a broader scheme? like aan: it looks broader scheme. the messages that the corporate structures are behind it, but we don't have the final truth. there is a lot of evidence but if you look at this giant declaration of the powers the britishase by the argument that the russian government is behind it. cautious stance. it took the government in london to show days to convince paris and -- two days to convince paris and berlin to sign this paper.
gemma: -- peter: this all sounds cautious and measured, but if they do have a case and if putin is behind this, this amounts to state-sponsored terrorism. christian: it is, but there is no proof behind it. this always has to be taken into account. alan: there is a russian expert on chemical weapons, who, as proof positive that the russian state wasn't behind it said, if we were behind this, the man would be dead already. this is the cynicism that we have to deal with. you, having been in russia alsow kno -- also know, that the whole terrorism,te/private even down to the chechens operating in the south of russia, there is a vague
continuum of power. in theif putin wanted to stop it, he could. if he can't, it is almost worse. the fact is, we have a russian e rrteoris on theiro possibly act own account. in order for the kremlin to have plausible deniability. there is a power center there which implies terrorism as a matter of course against its russia. in russia and out the point of this vagueness is to make inquiries on most impossible. russia denies the international conclusion that they shot down the malaysian airlines flight. to this day, they deny the
conclusion of all people that investigated it that they killed the former spy. to this day, no one ha a finger at the murderers of other opposition politicians in russia. this is the point of russian security. it is opaque. it cant be found. peter: i am quoting from newsweek. areu.k. service rexamining deaths of 14 people with connections to russia that were previously dismissed as natural. how much of a crisis is this between the west and russia? and must be the worst since the cold war. gemma: i agree. one thing i have a problem of is this term of "the west." i am somebody who thinks that the cold war is over.
i grew up in the soviet union as a german child at the time of the cold war and i think it is good to get rid of these terms and these understandings. i oppose the picture that mr. putin -- mr. posener has shown of russia today. it is difficult for people like me who know russia to argue. there is nothing to excuse. there is a regime of putin, but it is structures, a country that needs our and that we need to look into what is going on there. we don't really know who was behind this attack. it's not clear. was in thenk it
interest of putin on this birthday to have him killed. we have talked about the chemical weapon. there are interpretations. we should wait for the facts. if it is the way that mr. posener says, then we need to react. mentioned the kli.his daughter spoke to the british foreign minister, boris johnson, about the sergei skripal attack. let's hear what he had to say, than a common from putin, and then we will come back to you. that: you have to consider sergei skripal, the guy they attempted tona, is
someone they have identified as a target for liquidation. that vladimir putin has, himself , said that traders and defectors such as mr. skripal, should be poisoned. it is a russian only nerve agent. >> we destroyed our chemical weapons unthsu a international watchdog. we were the first to do it. our partners promised to do so but did not keep their promise. peter: boris johnson indicating that he believes vladimir putin does order the killing of traders and defectors -- traito rs and defectors. the actual language he has used is traitors will kick the bucket. this doesn't sound like the language of a man who can be reasoned with. christian: what we have to do
now is investigate the cases of the dead in russia. le have to ask why the skripa case is suddenly the wake-up call? why didn't the british government pay atten bor this is an alien government under intense pressure that has to deal with brexit and cannot cope with it -- no one can. now they make russia a scapeg politically speaking this is obvious -- alan: the opposite is true. i'm sorry, christian. these cases were not investigated fully beforehand because russian dirty money is -- and itnt in london goes through places like knightsbridge, chelsea -- every second house belongs to an olig.
london is the center of money from russia. that is the main reason why, hitherto, britain has bee lax in negotiating. now finally it is a wake-up call, now, finally, they have been investigated. not because britain is in the middle of brexit, but because they are waking up. because they have been too dependent on russian money as germany is dependent on russian gas. we have been much too negligent with regards this imperialist power. expect thedo you british government to address this question of dirty or laundered russian money? haenow. think it might finally gemma: is the question of how do you deal with russia now? is the question of how do you deal with russia
now? i think we will live with putin for the next six years, minimum. theink that we still need common policy on this where we can't only focus on incidents like this. we need also to develop a certain strategy, being cautious. seegreed on this and to certain dangers that are in government. with this black and white picture, we were not prepared enough. alan: it is not a black and white picture. purelyuld paint us as white, but it is a black picture when it comes to russian imperialism. gemma: but putin is not the center -- the whole of russia. alan: you just said he had
something like 70% -- not quite soviet style, that would be 99%, because heuge, didn't have real opposition. gemma: we agree on that. alan: what i'm saying is, this is not an authoritarian government which has been constantlyssivthin of georgia, e thinke, think of syria, of the fact that russia supports every right-wing extremist party in europe. austria,om party in which is now in government, is a client of moscow. the faist party and russia is a client of moscow. the new fascist party in italy. ale inoreign nation france. german right-wing party has
excellent relationships with moscow. come on. how much more has to happen before we say, we may not be white, but they are definitely black. christian: the question is how much longer do we have to live and deal with putin? there was a tweet from this so-called news outlet. she indicated that mr. putin might service lifetirede fo russia. russia following the chinese example. the question i want to raise is, there is no scenario in russia of how to hand over power to the successor. peter: you are looking too far into the future. let's go back to the world cup. of vladimiris that putin will go on a charm offensive ahead of that. he will come knocking on western
doors. how should the west, if we use that term, respond? christian: the west has to open the door. they have to try to improve the situation on the ground in the ukraine. thists a bit further in completely stalled peace process. there is window of opportunity in internationalolitics right now because mr. putin wants this tournament, he wants to be the host of many nations. peter: that poisoned former spy becomes a footnote of history? christian: not of history, but what else should western leaders do? their trying to grasp that chance, to start seriously renegotiatingt is on th table between russia and us. peter: is that realistic? gemma: i think that is realistic. if we look at the british
-russian relations now, we have 23 diplomats there. i was sad to hear that the british council will be closed, which is an important institution for a lot of people in civil society and russia. the football match will be a unique opportunity of people to travel to rusa, to see it is different from the stereotypes that mr. posener is presenting tonight. peter: mr. posener is getting impatient as well. alan: people travel to russia, they won't see the real russia, just as they didn't when they went to the 1936 games in berlin. everything is spruced up and you won't see the secret police. come on, the idea that by visiting each other you get to therstand each other --
viewer will understand one thing only -- peter: you are comparing the 1936 olympic games and the way that hitler's used and abused the sports tournament, you are comparing it with the weather vladimir putin will promote the world cup -- alan: exactly. right you are buyingh into the boris johnson line on this. putin to comparing hitler's for various reasons, but sporting events aood for propaganda. we know that fifa is incredibly corrupt. there are lots of scandals. the tournament in qatar is a sca ndal. the tournament in russia was a scandal. it,n't know who bought but it is time to buy out of that and say, we are not going to award authoritarian regimes are rich, arab shiites.
peter: we are running out of time. christian, your comments? christian: the wrong way. theres some talk about how this can be for politics, but if you give up chances like that, what world would we live in? separate curtain nation from nation. what would you do with china? alan: not talking about business. christian: business in general. be it sports, beat it exchange. peter: final comments? gemma: we cannot paint the world and the colors we would like. with theo live countries we have. we agree on a lot more than we heard today. i would not like to portray putin or the government nicely, but i would like to have a
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[applause] man: whoo-hoo! john: good afternoon. hn: so, i guess i'm not in church today, huh? good afternoon. audience: good afternoon. john: thank you. so, first of all, i want to thank kenny and nina, uh, for bringing us together and, more importantly, for the work they've done for the last 25 years. and i'm sure it started before then. and i also want to thank all of you