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tv   Quadriga - The International Talk Show  LINKTV  August 25, 2019 10:30pm-11:01pm PDT

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quadriga ew's international talk show coming to you from berlin hi i'm brian thomas and on our show today you've seen them for about three months now every weekend out on the streets of hong kong thousands of protesters calling for democracy and the rule of law. i onone protest one point seven million people peacefully stakining their claim on freedom police holding back this time with no tear gas and no rubber bullets but we'll be doing give hong kong the freedom and autonomy it's so desperately
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wants and why is the weather's been so reluctant to unequivocally back up the protesters. and their calls for democracy. our topic today china's power play hong kong betrayed. to talk about this i'm joined by fog we from dw's asia desk he says. i wanted to experiment with the rule of law and democracy in hong kong with one country two systems and now also has to make concessions. bernard fox is the senior expert on asia for the bertelsmann foundation based here in berlin he says hong kong is at the center of a global competition of systems. western democracies show solidarity. and resilience and the ability to learn. and jerry chan is from hong kong works for d. w. social media team in berlin she says china's propaganda war is only uniting the people of hong kong and
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they will not stop fighting on the streets until they get a real response from the government. thanks so much to all of you for being here today and to our viewers of course from around the world as well well if we could start with you you know it you say that. it's all a matter of the people talking in in hong kong end of beijing experimenting with this the city have they lost control of the laboratory the laboratory that is right. hong kong right now for the chinese government and our events taking on a life of their own. once it is out of control to beijing never controls hong kong in ththe remaining. but its love conserve the public image in the international words. the situation home call is like it is g. h. the hong kong trying to be the part of the one country two sysystems the part f the one of the two systems. and what the what the month in a democracy and rule fool this
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written in the law and that's what the dimona but beijing is not. ready to give them the freedom okay to two countries to two systems one country a one of the systems is clearly a totalitarian the one in beijing. hong kong has been free to this point a bernard you say the hong kong. is on its way to becoming a police state. at least the police have played. a role in the last couple of weeks that i think has surprised a lot of hong kong is because in hong kong there was a lot of trust in institutions. and then the police and- the police violence that we've seen and that hasn't been independently. researched it's something that has shocked hong kong kong hong kong this and is really at the at the heart of this conflict. now which for home comers and- terry knows better then we'll do is a conflict about. what is our city going to be like in
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the future is it going to be just any. chinese city or is it going to remain. the differences okay i was one of our viewers that it's twenty forty seven right that a hong kong reverts to complete chinese rules so there's this window of opportunity there. a cherry as a hong kong how is. this city different from the rest of china. and fun and race in hong kong and punk on people i'm i'm from that and then we always see freedom adds. almost the same standard as how the western low is seeing it and we also know people from china with friends from mainland china and when we told them it is because we know that we have a friends. when we look at freedom for example we always have a relatively high freedom of speech freedom of media we can get access to facebook and pizza and- the internet without any restrictions which is very different from the mainland china okay this also the court systems welsh hong kong has
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been so successful because- it has an independent course system there is the rule of law. that is also a main difference along with freedom of expression is. yeah exactly in hong kong we always try such a this system and we know that is independent from the administration we know that we have always trust that the government would not intervene easily into and the- judicial process all and they do this so the sessions okay so it's a long way. from where we are today to a police state that so many people fear how one of the problems that hong kong protestors have been pointing to is the extradition law. that the citizens of hong kong if they are charged with a crime would disappear to mainland china basically what's behind these fears extradited to mainland china why is that so terrifying for hong kong people the reason is pretty clear because cell. phone call is in city ruled by law but the mainland china it is not the
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case therefore some criminals accused in hong kong the if the extra. if they go you to mainland china their fears not very transparency and proceeds. in the cold that's the main reason for the whole project but not this bill is stats as carillon that as c. e. l. of the country but- it just to be. a long process because what the finally dimond's itself democracy. in the remaining let me understand in west. karen that has been given by the beijing government. the basic goal set that potentially hong kong could have free elections it's not very definitive it's a it's a it's an unclear law but
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that is what hong kong people have been hoping for the longest time that at one point there will be full democracy and beijing has made it very clear in the last couple of years that that is not going to happen. and it's carrie lam stroll two two now squash these protests okay taking says it could happen but to hong kong he says it should happen okay causing a basic law is that eventually and gradually it what happened not potentially so we believe that in the end it would happen and we're looking forward to this okay cherry i'm you also pointed to earlier social media. that's a very much part of china's propaganda warfare aimed at not only the people inside on khan but the mainland chinese as well it shows that beijing really wants to get a control of this process the protest process quickly as possible is there a fear in beijing and how this question would apply to you as well that that the protests will. will leave hong kong and moved to other parts
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of the of the country t that we could see protests elsewhere in china as a result. yeah and i think the provocando all by china is not very obviously not very successful in hong kong and it's not very successful in the international media as well because i'm gone people have been very used to this kind of. propaganda all state media day at the statements and uncle people mainly use it mainly see it as a joke more than believing what they're saying yes so and also long gone people really trying actually they are really trying to get international attention and there are lots of protests organized in other countries as you said. how would but but could the social media propaganda another propaganda lead to protest that will move to other parts of china or do you think that's that's situation that's to be excluded that these protests are. not transferable to the we got ours for example the. minority
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muscles. i don't think they're going to move somewhere in other and now the chinese cities because- it's not going to work a- bit closer the child. home call issue a free city you may go to street and demonstration but in china the simple waste we don't know exactly what happened happened really. happened in mainland china we don't know what exactly happened why it happens. and the police have a very strong hand and that would make you disappear for long. and that's is very risky wrists for all the parties with no okay we're going to. a focus more now on the propaganda war being waged on numerous fronts a by beijing those fronts include global social media platforms state run media from entertainment to films to. internet news sites and of course to state run tv as well. this is how chinese state media are presenting the situation in hong kong. as a city in chaos. with masked protesters prepared for violence. whom they accuse of being bandits and terrorists.
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this is the chinese government's take on the temporary occupation of hong kong a airport do do do we express our strong this combination of this new terrorist act a and expressss or deepest condolences to the injured man and compatriots. and hong kong police. the newspapers are also full of images of violence this propaganda seems to be plausible for some citizens. one thing i think that it's okay to take to the streets in protest in a normal way but you shouldn't destroy public order and carry out violent acts. only terrorists do that kind of thing. state media have also been showing these images of troop exercises in st gen on the border with hong kong. t will china really resort to arms to crush ththe resistance n hong kong. what do you think about chinese a propaganda aimed at hong kong and the rest of china how effective is it
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and it is different isn't it we heard from cherry this not very effective in hong kong. what about on mainland china to people by all of it. that's the big question i think the interesting thing and you pointed to that is that. in hong kong it doesn't work and it doesn't work although there's been more than twenty years off strong propaganda strong propaganda in schools and it didn't work and i think this demonstration came as a surprise to beijing because- aging thought. we have discovered so the big question in mainland china is two people believe all the propaganda yes in a way they do with what the fed with but it doesn't mean that they are happy with the system but the happy with their own lives and that there's not a lot of undercurrents. of dissatisfaction that could blow up nobody had the protest like in hong kong on their books and the big question for beijing is how is it code going to
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control. its own population. okay. how would what do you think what what is china not getting right about hong kong why is the propaganda not succeeding there is it simply the hong kong people have access to western media. is that what's going on there there's an old saying john is which is very good is like a metaphor for this the reason because the asian chinese when intellectually writing from. upstairs to downstairs when they're reading old books is always mom why hong kong i see home by regard home because part of it still there right from left to the right hand side. it is always safe now i just think in beijing. right into the body's response and how we read that's exactly that's it okay the no everything what the part in the states say it's true. and they didn't have the second sort of independent source because of for censorship. that's the reason and i don't sing. and chinese the state's round media is going to have the control they might have a culture of
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the public opinion within the mainland china but but the ones. ace have an international opinion a china friendly international piano what they're- trying to fill out the facebook and twitter okay a terry what what do you think of propaganda is not going to work what are the options for beijing. to get hong kong in line. to answer all the demands of funk on people first of all this is i think a and in every mine of hong kong citizens they know very well what they want and what they're fighting full and then i'm going to stop until they get. that the months and said and also there's one thing to point out about and meet. in a public opinions in china. maybe japanese government that they control public opinion but the fact is that. chinese people they are so afraid to speak out. that is never that we are never able to
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get what they're really thinking because they cannot speak on social media. they cannot speak on camera so maybe they are really thinking like. hong kong people so money it's just that they can never speak out maybe they want the same freedoms but we simply don't know that okay well. the chinese communist party's track record on respecting human rights is of course. a dismal the occupation of tibet. destruction of its culture interment of over aillion we go are muslims of course as well and the bloody suppression of the- democracy movement. it at tiananmen square in nineteen eighty nine now this. was the central. point of bait jing's efforts to. crush the human rights movement thirty years ago and it was a savage reality when. tanks literally rolled over young pressures of protesters in the square of heavenly peace we all wee all remember that. in tiananmen square young men and women who had the audacity jusust like the courageous citizens of honong kong today. to call for their voices to be heard. and their voices matter just as much as
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the highest functionary of the communist party. and that all people must be equal before the law that will is what it was all about back then and is now. and the question is those voice those voices thirty years ago they were drowned out. in blood we haven't heard them since then not in the way the two hearing them now at least. in hong kong. it's a big question i know but after looking at the images of tiananmen square from thirty years ago better if we could start with you. should we be concerned about the possibility of another tiananmen square. in hong kong. i think we should be concerned but i don't think it's very likely. tenement is still the trauma for the chinese communist party. beijing knows that it would be drastic if the p. l. a. the people's liberation army actually went into hong kong and i don't think it's necessary nowadays
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because the party has different means of putting people under pressure it has all the- technical means it has. the companies that are being put under a lot of pressure now cathay pacific and many others so. i don't see a big likelihood at the same time i don't see a very good outcome for the hong kong people it's going to be a very unhappy ending i'm very unhappy ending okay what do you think that means jerry what would be a very unhappy ending have you excluded as- it has the possibility of another tiananmen square. and i think the hong kong people they're very well aware that china is trying to scare add hong kong people with violence and the possibility of sending out on me and i think many of them just. try to ignonore the fact all even if they know about these they were saying that they have nothing to lose if it ends up like this they would. they would take other action
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then but then for all. they only demand is to have answers from the government. what do you think out. i don't i don't think this serves to demonstrate happen again with china. serbia's ago is was complete different from the china today because china's said always says it's now a responsible big nation on the international words. and are they going to use force because- of the international conflict china all the cities will be for me. to sosolve the problem theyy can be the china says when i have a problem. my whole backyard i just make my soldier said i sent my soldier to. give it clear that is no problem anymore this is not unreasonable. and another the argumement. is the china's's gog to separate to sixty years. our founding of the people's republic china beginning of october that's coming up. i don't believe they're going to be. have a very very bad image in the i international press whn they appear a simple marching to hong kong. okay so good china plays a very long game
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though the communist party. in beijing. if we look at the past we look at what's happened in tibet what happened at tiananmen square the interminable week gore's i mean. beijing is not adverse to at reverting to force at the end of the day it could work because local has nicer legal framework. this is the part of another system the legal frame with says the purity could be sent to hong kong if the seed the leader of hong g kong. officially off pigeon to do that but not sink. a carrot damage leader of the city is going to do that. okay well how was the west a responded there's been a mixed response french and german leaders. called for dialogue about the situation the us congress has been damaged by this heavy handed police response for drop. as call. on the chinese
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president to exercise restraint. for the trade deal that we're talking about. i believe it's only donald trump who's responded to this in terms of a high level a world a politician is the u. s. the only country you can bring pressure to bear on beijing i think long on the ball trying to ask the international community not only that. not the only the only the us but also the you'll also germany england to put pressure on china. but they are also very well aware that only like if it's only words it wouldn't really work like one. even if the international committee it's contending china and if there are no other action for example economic sanctions all. of real actions there was for them in anything. okay what do you say. expressing concerns kind of pressure. as china has to sears
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taken take taking to consider. as sanctions not a way out single we i i which would be tht beijing hong kong. they going to negotiate in the frame of a one country two systems about the wait. time table at least how the democrats a democracy could be implemented in hong kong like derek a like a- a general election. okay don't know when i'm listening to cherry though that's already been decided this twenty forty seven. when china is soo resumes control of hong kong until then the chinese people or the people of hong kong rather want democracy. the way i'm hearing you is that jerry that's non negotiable. yeah because for us we- don't believe what we're trying to *-*- is the extension. of one country two systems we don't want to believe that. by two thousand forty seven we will. become just another city of china we want to have an
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extension we want to have the two system for ever. okay the two system forever let's take a listen now to some of the protesters and what they have to say about their hopes their fears and their dreams from god. the more we come out to protest the more people will be arrested. but we still will not leave until we get what we want. he knows the motel. loads and loads of on the nose hello. how cold something smaller to you guys. we can be see the recall for from the hall figures we can back on monday. but if we use these five. phone calls diplomacy would have a recall. we share same values at u. s.
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and. your dad with fight for democracy with. on one side it clearly a one party ideological system on the other a multi party democracy that supports the rule of law is this a clash of cultures that we're seeing take place focus on hong kong. that has to do with china. i prefer the term competition of systems none of us has an interest in a real clash when but definitely in a global situation where we have. the established western democracies on the one hand on the other hand we have a rise of authoritarian systems. led by china and that is part of the conflict that is playing out that that is part of why the us is getting involvedd on a high level because- the us and china have this trade and everything else wall going on. so more trouble for she can ping
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something that donald trump obviously enjoys but it's also something that concerns us in europe because in hong kong we say we see the play book. that china is using to handle dissent and cold for democracy and that is a much much broader question how is a more of a clash sure a competition and i prefer the words of the term they call existing because okay system. should be co existed in what china doesn't want is that this be between the what the two systems that one system is challenging the mother. it should be a co existence that says that keep this whole one country stable okay sir terry's the west's approach right now a good one should the west back off avoid provoking china not looking like it's- being involved in the protests right now. speaking from the perspective of a hong kong person off because we would like the west to speak out mall i had to give more pressure to
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china but then maybe it's not in the best interests of. all these western countries because of all the other reasons because of because of because of trade but then that if we had just been about the venue of the mall chrissy freedom. that all. was simple has this responsibility to step. additions to come out and say we support this. this is a legitimate show of concern by the hong kong people china is trying to undermine the legitimacy of these protests and we should show no this is legitimate. on the other hand we should also be very open and saying. yukon you can expect this from us but you can't expect more we have interests in china we are in a very different than the very
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difficult situation this is how far we can support you but- please see the complicated situation that we're in okay how last question to you do you think this is going. to end peacefully youou're promoting a co existence of the two systems is it going to end well i believe the going to end well because a single way out he said then the solution between hong kong beijing. and that's that they hahave to the homework they have to do right now. and sit down at the table and start talking that's right. jerry we can talk more some point about. extending the freedoms but- bass twenty forty seven rather time though i'd like to thank. all of our viewers from wrapped around the world. joining us on quite read it today and of course our guest here as well. i'm brian thomas for all of us thanks so much for being with us
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