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tv   The Last Word With Lawrence O Donnell  MSNBC  February 19, 2014 7:00pm-8:01pm PST

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what he's doing. in public, though, he's wrapping himself in the glory and in the cause of the people who he sent to get saddam hussein's smoking gun, right in? it's a free country. this is his new cause. and the man can say whatever he wants. now it's time for "the last word" with lawrence o'donnell. have a great night. tonight, the parents of jordan davis join me once again. this time they'll give us their reaction to the verdicts in the murder trial of michael dunn and the reaction to what one of the jurors had to say about the case. >> the verdict in the michael dunn murder trial is raising questions. >> the jury delivered a verdict. >> he's accused of killing a teenager. >> dunn fired ten rounds. >> the shots killed 17-year-old jordan davis. >> dunn says he shot davis in self-defense. >> no gun was ever found. >> no weapon, however, was ever found at the scene. >> this was a mixed verdict.
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>> guilty on four of five charge against dunn. >> that's three counts of attempted murder. >> and one count of firing into the vehicle. >> jurors failed to reach a unanimous verdict. >> the jury was unable to come to a decision on the charge of first degree murder. >> retrying the case is something that we've all had to do. >> the prosecutor said she would retry the case on the outstanding charge. >> and we'll give it the same full attention. >> he had no duty to retreat and had the right to stand his ground proop. >> for the stand your ground law -- >> something that's become sort of a matter of confusion over this case. >> stand your ground. >> stand your ground, the principle -- >> is part of the standard self-defense jury instruction in florida. >> that principle is very much in the jury instructions. >> it was a hung jury. they just couldn't reach a verdict on that tough charge. >> there's a lot of good kids out there. we raise them not to fear each other, to be good citizen in america. >> jordan's parents spoke out in an emotional press conference. >> he's a good kid. >> we will continue to stand.
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we will continue to wait for justice for jordan. >> we now know that the first time the jury voted on the charge of murder of jordan davis, there was almost unanimously in favor of a conviction. 10 jurors said guilty. 2 said not guilty. by the time their deliberations were complete, they were deadlocked on the jury with nine saying guilty and three not guilty. the juror identified only has valerie told abc news she voted guilty. >> do you think michael dunn got away with murder? >> at this point, i do. myself personally, yes. >> valerie says the jurors voting not guilty on the murder charge clung to the judge's instruction to the jury on self-defense. which included this dwsh if michael dunn was not engaged in an unlawful activity and was attacked in any place where he had a right to be, he had no duty to aretreat and had the
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right to stand his ground and meet force with force, including deadly force if he reasonably believed that it was necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself. >> valerie, the juror explained how the jurors who voted not guilty on the murder charge of jordan davis were able to vote guilty on the attempted murder charges involving the other boys in the car. she explained that after michael dunn fired the first shots from inside his car, he then got out of his car, firing at the other car as that car was pulling away. and none of the jurors thought that firing at the car as it was driving away from michael dunn was justifiable. >> we had a lot of discussion on him getting out of the car and the threat is now gone, and your intent is yet to still go ahead and pursue this vehicle. >> so for you all, a dividing
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line was when he officially fired into the car thinking there was a weapon, that was one thing. but when the car pulled away and kept shoot, everyone thought he crossed a line there? >> yes. >> joining me now, jordan davis' parents, lucia mcbeth and ron davis, along with their lawyer, john phillips. we all sat here together at this table long before this trial. what seems like a long time ago and it really -- it hasn't been that long since the very first time you learned of this news when ron had to tell you what had happened. the -- what are your feelings now in the aftermath of this verdict? >> a little shocked. little dismayed. even though i'm very happy that the charges have been, you know, brought forth for michael dunn for the boys. justice has been served for them. just a little dismayed that we
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have to continue to fight a longer fight than we expected to receive a just verdict for jordan. >> ron, when you first heard the story and as the story developed, and even in the pretrial stages, i'm sure it was very, very hard for you to imagine what the defense was going to say. when you heard the man who shot and dill kilned your son get on the witness stand and tell this story that you had, i'm sure, no ability to anticipate, what did it feel like in the courtroom as you heard this story, your son threatening him, he believing, seeing, saying he saw your son with a gun aimed at him. >> i was thinking about what standing ground was showing that as far as the force. what force was used against michael dunn. he sat up there and told a story. but at the bottom of the story is you can meet force with force. but there was no force.
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not a hair on his head was disturbed. so there was no force coming from jordan. verbally, there was -- it's not going go through the windows, it's not going to go through the glass. he made up a story. i could see him changing the story bit by bit. the witness that heard him say, you're not going to talk to me that way, when you say that, that doesn't mean you're afraid. it sounds like y you want to do something to somebody else. he kept changing his story. he changed that story to say something else. you're not going to kill me. he changed the story about three or four times. even his girlfriend said he never said there was a weapon of any kind. got back to the hotel yop uner a safe place in the hotel. never said one time there was a weapon. got in your car and drove the next day, two and a half hours. when you're on the road, you speak about all kinds of things with your loved ones. never said one word about a weapon. but all of a sudden he gets to court, he makes up a weapon. i think the jury has to see that and understand that. you can't let someone get up there and lie on the stand and
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then start looking at a stand your ground and see a self-defense case, because when you impeach yourself, you can't keep saying it's self-defense. >> john phillips, given what we've heard from the jury valerie so far, what we know about inside the jury room, does it -- is it your interpretation that those three who were not willing to vote for a conviction believed that jordan -- that jordan davis -- i'm sorry, that the defendant was actually threatened by a gun? or that he just possibly believed he was threatened by a gun. >> that's the standard. they believed through, which he was impeached over and over and over again, but they gave the benefit of the doubt to the caucasian businessman, and they, i guess, in their minds eye, some of these jurors said yeah, maybe i could see a -- >> how much of that do you think as a courtroom professional was expanded as a result of that
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judge's instructions that i just read about stand your ground. for that language in the law, meet force with force, there was never even a car door's worth of force put on michael dunn or his vehicle. >> the juror valerie was asked what she might want to say to you and this is what she said. >> i would say i am sorry, of course. nothing will bring back their son. i hope that they feel that we didn't do them a disservice. >> what's your reaction? >> i really believe that they struggled. i believe it was a very, very difficult time for them. i believe that they put their heart and soul into really deciding what the truth was. the fact that they stayed there as many hours as they did is and i case that they looked at every angle, they listened to every story and looked at every fact.
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but there again the law is what clouded them being able to make the decision that they needed to make. but we do believe that they tried as best as they could to really make a justice decision for the boys and for jordan. >> ron, valerie said that it got very heated in that jury deliberation room. a lot of anger was exchanged. there was a real fight over this judgment about your son. >> it's because you have mothers in the room, fathers in the room. and what happens is, when you know in your heart that somebody did not have to do it, as valerie said, it's something you could have rolled up your window, keep it rolled up. you could have pulled into another parking pot. she named about three or four different ways that michael dunn could have avoided, you know, the confrontation.
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but he continued the confrontation with the children by rolling the window down yet again. and then bringing a gun to a verbal fight. you know? and so i understand what she's saying. and i just definitely want to let her know that i think she did all she could to preserve my son's legacy and to make sure that michael dunn was found guilty. and when you have a jury of 12, sometimes there's nothing else that you can do but scream and holler from the rafters. he killed a kid he dependent have to. that's what he's saying. i agree with her. my heart goes out to her. it's tearing her up and that's probably why she was the first one to come forward. >> there are things that the jury did not know about michael dunn, including this phone call from prison. we're going to listen to this. i want to get your reactions to it after. but again, this is something that the jury never heard. >> right.
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>> i know you're innocent, baby. you did something you didn't want to have to do but you did what you had to. >> look, i was thinking about that today. i'm the [ bleep ] victim here. i was the one who was victimized. i mean, i don't know how else to put it. it's like they attacked me. i'm the victim. >> right. >> i'm the victor but i was the victim, too. >> he thinks he's the victor and the victim. >> i think michael dunn has p perceived ideas in his mind as to what really happened. i think his judgment is very clouded as to what really happened. and i think a lot of that kind of judgment is what enabled him to do what he did. because he feels justified. >> ron, you hear that. what's your reaction? >> my reaction is that michael
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dunn should understand that the victim was the one that had a bullet go through his lungs. a bullet tear his aorta. the victim is the one that was choking on his own blood and was gasping for air. the victim was a 17-year-old teenager that should have had his whole life in front of him, that was seeing his life go away in seconds. and he probably was so fearful and his friends were looking on, watching their best friend die in a moment of seconds. that's the victim. >> i asked people on twitter what they wanted to tell you or -- ask you. kevin ware said, please tell them that my heart aches for them. period. there are thousands of people tweeting tonight. how does that feel? does that help? >> it does.
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>> it does. we have received so much support from all across the nation because we've taken a lot of time to make sure that people really knew who jordan was. and i think that people understand that we've been good parents. and we raised a good boy. not a perfect child, but a good boy. and i think that people have been able to see the truth and we've very, very humbled by the fact that we have so many people that are standing with this and supporting us that way. >> tell us something about jordan the trial didn't reveal. and what would you say to his murderer if you had the opportunity? >> something about jordan is that jordan was very competitive. he was a leader of his friends. you know, whenever he had friends in atlanta and friends in jacksonville.
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and where it was determining where they would go tomorrow, he was always the determining factor. jordan was competitive with me. he wanted to beat his dad in all sports, games, play station, whatever it was. whether it be playing risk on the computer. if i said look at world war ii dvds, he would sit with me and comment on world war ii. most kids that age wouldn't care about world war 2, but because i cared about it, he cared about it. that's what i have to say about jordan. if i was in front of michael dunn, i would have to say you have to understand, sir, that everybody that you tell to cut down their music is not going to do it. and sometimes they don't do it, that doesn't mean you have to take their life. you know? i've heard it since the trial that there's other people that you've asked to turn the music down and you thought -- and they did it. so then you were fine with that because they did it. but when my son doesn't do it, you think his life is so worthless that you would consider that an act that you have to fatally shoot him.
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i think you should look at your vourndings right now and understand that is not the way we live in america. >> lucia, is there something you would like to say to michael dunn? >> i've thought many, many times before this if to i ever got the opportunity to speak to him, what would i say. and what i would say to him is not only did you take jordan's life, but you took my future. i won't have grandchildren. i will never have a daughter-in-law. i will never have all of those things that you see in your children as your legacy. i don't have those things anymore. but what he will need to understand is that in some way,
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shape or form, he will pay. he will pay, even if we don't ever receive the verdict for jordan, he will pay because he's going to spend the rest of his life in jail. and i feel sorry for him for that. >> you know, for john and i, people who have spent a lot of time in courtrooms, the way criminal lawyers score wins is, does the client walk out of the building. that's the win. and they just -- they score it in terms of sentence. they don't -- the criminal lawyers themselves don't really care what the conviction comes in on. they score it in terms of sentence. and so lucia makes the point, this is the rest of his life. he's being sentenced to a period over, past his age of 100. ron, what about that? what about that? how should we as a society define justice here? and how will you two define i justice here? >> justice for me is, we know
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he's going away for quite a long time. if he gets out, he will be well over 100 years old. however, i want the law in the state of florida to say to the nation, he was not justified in murdering my son. and for me and lucia, we just have to have that. now, if we don't get it, we can live with that because he's still behind bars, you know? and to make the healing process start, we need to have the justice system look at this and say, he was not just in killing jordan davis. how many young kids are going to have what we have, which is a lighted gas station, witnesses, three boys to testify. you know, all these things, all these facts were shown in the courtroom and we still can't get a conviction that he did wrong. most of the time the kids maybe by themself themselves driving. and they get shot. what's going to happen then when
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you don't have the witnesses, you don't have the light on the gas station. you don't have independent witnesses. you don't have a guy with no 911 call racing home to get away from what he did. ordering pizza when he gets to the hotehotel. all of these things should have swayed the jurors to understand this guy actually murdered my son and they still couldn't come back with a conviction. we're still waiting for justice for jordan. >> i have to tell you, the most common thread in all comments about you today online, people knowing you were coming here was just awe for your composure and grace in this situation. and i share that. and i can't thank you enough. >> thank you so much for having us. >> we'll be right back . including unlimited talk... unlimited text... and 10 gigs of data to share. 10 gigs? 10 gigs. all for $160 dollars a month. you know, i think our family really needed this. it's really gonna bring us closer together.
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thousands of products added online every day... even safety cones. now save big for your business with a $25 staples gift card when you buy a tablet. staples. make more happen. >> primarily responsible for making sure that it is dealing with peaceful protesters is an appropriate way, that ukrainian people are able to assemble and speak freely about their interests without fear of regression. >> the ukrainian government says there is a truce tonight, but protests continue even after riot police tried to disban protesters last night. as many as 26 people have been killed. tonight, the u.s. state department put sanctions on 20 ukrainian officials involved in the crackdown by restricting
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their advivisas to enter the un states. ukraine's president abandoned a trade deal with europe in favor of a trade deal with russia and vladimir putin. russia's foreign minister tweeted tonight the blame for this also rests with many western countries that interfered in the events by courting the protesters. that is of course a reference to the united states. president obama said this at a press conference a short time ago. >> our approach as the united states is not to see this as some cold war chess board in which we're in competition with russia. our goal is to make sure the people of ukraine are able to make decisions for themselves about their future. >> joining me now is msnbc contributor steve clemens. steve, this -- i guess you could say that we could see some of this coming, but i'm not sure we
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can see where this is going. well, is the protest groups are a hard right wing that's anti-russian. the group isn't mon listic. it's quite fragmented. a lot of people are comparing what's happening right now in ukraine with syria and looking at what -- you know, outside observers watch. what's really interesting about ukraine is that the ple protests than taking place are deeply authentic. deeply embedded in that society. and these people aren't waiting for europe and the united states to pitch in, to intervene. this isn't, you know, a group trying to generate red lines that are crossed. this is deep in the soul and identity of ukraine. we're fairly irrelevant to what's going on. that's why i think it's fairly certain we're going to see an escalation there. and you're going to see a lot of
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tension between russia and the united states over this because fundamentally, we would like the story that ukraine tilted towards western liberal democracy, towards europe. and vladimir putin wants to keep this country kind of well snuck under his armpit. i think there's going to be a lot of war of words. but our options are fairly limited. >> let's listen to what john kerry had to say about this today in paris. >> the ukrainian president has an opportunity to make a choice. a choice between protecting the people that he serves, all of the people, and the choice for compromise and dialogue versus violence and mayhem. we believe the choice is clear and we are talking about the possibility of sanctions our friends in europe and elsewhere. in order to try to create the
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environment for compromise. >> is yanukovych able to make what the white house calls the positive choice? >> i think they think he is. if you look at the words that obama as used and biden have used own kerry. they're not writing him off. it's very interesting. they're leaving an on-ramp for him to walk this down and detoxify the situation. the man is under incredible pressure obviously. and vladimir putin and i think russia have put a lot of their own money and cash on the table to try to seduce him to sort of stay on the track where they're going. but what we see going on, and it's a little bit scary, is the possibility that we're seeing vladimir putin in russia essentially softly reimpose some of the contours of the cold war.
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russia is not the soviet union, not playing the same game, but we're seeing a crisis. you can go back to georgia. you can go back to the recognition of kosovo. you can take edward snowden, residing in russia. you can take syria. and in case after case after case, we're dealing with these as little incidents, isolated from one another. but russia increasingly seems to be challenging us at allts of pots. anra ocourse, is far, far more consequential to russia and frankly to european and american aspirations than syria. this is a big contest. for influence. and the perception of influence in the world. >> steve clemens, thank you very much for joining us tonight. >> thank you. coming up later in "the rewrite" an encore appearance by george takei. instead of paying too much for an ipad, i got the surface 2. first of all, it comes with office and outlook. then, with free skype calls to phones in over 60 countries, i can talk to my cousins any time. and then, i got 200 gigs of cloud storage -- free -- so i can get my photos and stuff almost anywhere.
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>> i lost my job six, seven months ago. >> i'm a year short of qualifying for my retirement. >> i had some cutbacks. i was the most skilled technician and also the highest paid. >> i wouldn't have money to go on an interview. >> my retirement was going away as a result of this. >> i do have a husband, thank god. or i would be homeless. >> tell republicans, restore unemployment benefits now. >> senate democratic leader harry reid plans to give senate republicans yet another chance to vote on restoring emergency unemployment benefits for more
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than $1 million people. only four republicans joined every democrat on the bill was last brought to a vote in early february. but that wasn't enough to get to the 60 vote threshold needed to pass. today, politico reports some senate republican republicans are now desperately searching for an exit on the issue. a group of senate republicans is meeting quietly to plot an unusual strategy. dan coates of indiana, rob portman of ohio, dean helder of nevada and susan collins of maine want a deal that could bring the democratic drum beat to an end. coates and port map were previous no votes. and democrat jack reid of rhode island who represents states with the highest unemployment rates in the country. president obama used his weekly address to call on congress to raise the federal minimum wage. >> right now there's a bill in congress that would boost america's minimum rage to $10.10
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an hour. you deserve to know where the feel who represent you stand on this issue. if they don't sup raising the federal minimum wage to $10.10 an hour, ask them why not. >> republicans think they have their answer to that in a new report from the congressional budget office. about 16.5 million workers who will earnless than $10.10 an hour under the current law would receive higher wages. that's pretty obvious. the $10.10 option would reduce the number of people in families whose income is below the poverty threshold by about 900,000 or 2% fewer people in poverty. okay. and once fully implemented in the second hoof 2016, the $10.10 option would reduce total em appointment by about 500,000 workers, or 0.3%. and that's the republican's answer.
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republicans seizing on the last one. saying it could decrease employment at the low end of the pay stale by about 500,000 jobs. >> here's what you would like to see. i would like to see republicans stand up and say look, because of the cbo report, we're not going to support the minimum wage, but what we are going to do is tax rich people or take money from defense or something to increase the earned income tax credit or bring back the pay tax credit because that would boost the pay for the low income tax earners. if you don't want to make those tradeoff, you need some kind of alternative. simply saying we will do nothing to help low income workers who have absolutely no bargaining
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power is not a reasonable answer. that's the worst tradeoff of all. >> well, i agree with the white house on this. that there is probably a 0 effect at the lore end. i've been studying this effect on minimum wage increases for 25 years now. and using the classic arguments, it would create a loss of em appointment. but the politics going forward on the extension of unem appointment benefits is the dynamic changing for republicans on this? the handful of republicans they need to pass it. >> it changes with every day we get closer to the election, right? how quickly that goes is anybody's guess. i think the psychology of the republicans are coming up on the election is they have a winning hand. obama care had a really rough launch.
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the economy is getting better, but it's not roaring by my means. democrats have had a number of troubles this year. there's no great sort of excitement on the horizon for democrats in terms of legislation. the demographics are more favorable for republicans in midterms. so what they don't want are any highly popular issues that cut against them. how many people suffer, that is still anybody's guess. >> there's a quinnipiac poll taken last month indicating that 72% support increasing the federal minimum wage. 27% are against it, and 27%, of course, is all it takes for virtually all republicans to be against it. we've kind of moved into another world of politics where polling of overwhelming majorities on things like that don't seem to have any effect on republicans.
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>> absolute not. i mean, intense minorities are very capable in american politic, and particularly lately. but this is in part why democrats are pushing something unlike an earn income tax credit. they did it in the 2006 el'eggs. certainly democratic hope is that they'll do it again. cpo reports despite what we might hope, certainly democrats are looking at wage. and president obama says the 10.10 number is an issue they can use to battle republicans even if they're not going to get it over the finish line before then. >> thank you. >> coming up, the chris christie investigation goes to court. ♪
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on this day february 19 in 1942, 74 days after the bombing of pearl harbor by japan, president franklin delano roosevelt signed executive order 9066. it reads in port, i haesh authorize and direct the secretary of war to subscribe military areas in such places and of such extent as he or the appropriate military commander may determine from which any or all persons may be excluded and with respect to which the right of any person to enter, remain in or leave shall be subject to whatever restrictions the secretary of war, or the appropriate military commander may impose in his discretion. executive order 9066 gave the war department the power to
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create and run prison camps here in the united states. 30 days after president roosevelt signed the order, congress passed public law 503, implementing it and the government began filling those camps with japanese americans along with some german americans and italian americans. by 1943, 122,000 men, women and children were forced into these prison camps that were scattered around the country. one of our regular guests here on "the last word" was forced into one of those camps with his family when he was a child. he told us the story this way. >> when i was a kid, i grew up in two u.s. internment camps -- >> in california. >> well, no. the swamps of arkansas. we lived in california. >> and you were hauled all the way out there. >> to arkansas. then we were later transferred to another one in northern
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california. but we were there only because we happened to look like the people that bombed pearl harbor. a year into internment, the government realized there was a wartime manpower shortage. and when the military was opened up for service by japanese-americans, thousands of young japanese-americans went from those internment camps to fight for this country. they were put into a segregated unit, fought on those bloody battlefields in europe and came back the most decorated unit of the entire world war ii. they exercised something that was very important. they did it for their families, certainly. because they loved america. they sacrificed themselves and many, many perished on those fields. >> i've driven by northern california, one of the
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internment camps and there's really nothing there except you have to know on the map. >> they were all in the most desolate places. >> yes. completely desolate place. it's an astonishing thing to ponder. you know, i've pulled over and i look at the little identifier, that tells us this is where it is. it's shown to my daughter and talked about it. driven by a couple of times actually. it was astonishing that was so recent, so easy to do at the time. so hard to see what was wrong with it. from the people outside the camps who put you there. >> the japanese americans on hawaii -- in hawaiian territory were not incarcerated. because they were about half the
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population and the economy would have collapsed. we were thinly spread out. we were primariimarily into the, farmers. we were becoming quite successful. and so it was hysteria and greed and lack of political leadership. >> on this day in 1976, 31 years after the world war ii, the president of the united states gerald ford finally terminated president roosevelt's executive order 9066. terminated, but never to be forgotten. when you order the works you want everything. an expert ford technician knows your car's health depends on a full, complete checkup. the works.
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to launch a startup from your garage. a. >> chris christie is going to the court over what happened at the george w. bridge. that's next. has everything you need to launch a startup from your garage... mom! [ male announcer ] except permission to use the garage. thousands of products added online every day... even safety cones. now save big for your business with a $25 staples gift card when you buy a tablet. staples. make more happen. [ nephew ] hi heath. i can't wait to see you win gold! bye. [ male announcer ] there when you need it. at&t. the nation's most reliable 4g lte network.
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lovely read susan. may i read something? yes, please. of course. a rich, never bitter taste cup after cup. 340 grams. [ sighs ] [ male announcer ] always rich, never bitter. gevalia. >> i cannot allow this agency to be mischaracterized by the actions of a few individuals when the day to day work of so many including this ford is so important. on behalf of the board of commissioners, we are deeply sorry for the inconvenienced caused to our travel everies.
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>> that is david samson speaking today at an open meeting of the port authority of the new york and new jersey. dave samson is the chairman of the point authority, it.ed to this position by new jersey governor chris christie. samson obviously knew he had to say something about the scandal at the george washington bridge, but he wasn't prepared to say much. >> while i would like to comment more specifically about some of the out standing issue, i recognize that there are established efforts to examine the events that occurred. i defer to these procedures and i trust that when the facts unfold, and they will unfold, the public will have a complete picture. >> the new jersey legislative investigative committee went to court today asking for a court order to get two of chris christie's former aides to comply with subpoenas. bridget kelly, chris christie's
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now fired deputy chief of staff, and bill stepian, his fired campaign manager are now pleading the fifth amendment. as the person who offered the e-mail stating that it was time for traffic problems for ft. lee, ms. kelly certainly has relevant information about the subject matter. committee was well within its rights to ask ms. kelly, a statement employee, using state resources to communicate about the official state action of closing access lanes to produce any further information she has. joining me now is a democratic strategist and former council to the house judiciary committee. there's david samson in his little apology note at that public hearing. attributing what happened at the george washington bridge to the actions of a few individuals. that list of individuals is expanding every day.
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it may very well include dr. samson himself, who is deeply entrenched in this whole story. but now we're finding out about chip michaels, this police officer who seems close to camp christie who was driving david wildstein around as an additional e-mail communication coming out about him. coming up with a better idea about how to make the traffic jam worse. to attribute this date as samson did to the actions of a few individuals. that's just patently false based on what we know on the record so far. >> that's right. and the plot continues to thicken every day. and the interesting thing is apart from mr. samson's kind of, i think lame explanation, there still is no counternarrative out there that the governor has put out, or the governor staff has put out. and it's very interesting what's going on with respect to the legislative committee going to court today to get the documents for which mr. stepian and ms.
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kelly are claiming the fifth amendment. for the most part -- >> can they get those documents? they're government e-mails on government -- that i ear owned by the government, aren't they? >> yeah, that's right. they're going to get them and they tier going to get them for a couple of reasons. first, the fifth amendment rarely applies to documents. it complies to compelled testimony against once oneself. it can apply to documents in rare instances where the government is saying i suspect somebody of drug trafficking and they subpoena that person and they say give me all the documents that show you may have been involved in drug trafficking. in that case, the production of the documents may be incrimin e incriminati incriminating. but here you have something entirely different. you have, first of all, documents, as you just pointed out, are government documents. secondly, the government is already aware of these documents. and is aware of the incriminating behavior surrounding documents. so the production of them seems to me not to add too much additional incriminatory
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information. they were sent to third parties. and fourth, keep in mind, the government can issue limited use immunity of these documents. so they can get, at the end of the day, they will be able to get access to these documents. now, why are these documents so important? it seems to me looking at this thing from the jo it side, there are three time periods going on in this investigation. one is the actual kind of conspiracy and planning phase up until september 9 when the bridge -- when the lane closure is actually executed. the second is this period between september 13 and say january 9, the governor's press conference, which i would refer to as kind of the cover-up phase. and then the last phase would be after january 9 the, the obstruction phase. i think the prosecutors are looking at this second phase between september 13 and, say, early january. the governor's position during this phase is a very -- he takes a very kint position that he was -- >> he was laughing about it then. he was telling about it jokes. of course, i was out there playing with the cones.
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it was all a joke to him then. >> right. so let me finish this line of thought. he has this innocent explanation where he believed it was a traffic study and that he had believed he had been duped and was a victim of his own staff. now, many people find that incredulo incredulous, because you have an investigative -- an investigation that's been started by the legislature in late september, early october. you have the head of the port authority saying the lane closure was illegal, and you have resignations of two senior appointees. now, if these documents that we're talking about that the legislative committee is going to court on show that christie one, knew that the explanation for the lane closures was not innocent and, in fact, there was some misbehavior there, and secondly, morntly, was involved in an effort to try to contain or cover up the evidence of that, either for press purposes ofor legal purposes, then the governor is in very, very, very dangerous territory. then you start talking about a
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whole range of criminal statutes that are involved in obstruction, cover-up and conspiracy. and it's widely known, at least it's been reported in the press that at least during this period of time between september 13 after these lane closures become real public knowledge. it's on this program. it's debated in the news media, and january, the governor -- in m people inside the governor's staff know that this is a controversy and a scandal that is brewing. it just is inconceivable to me that the governor as a former prosecutor -- a former u.s. attorney, and i've been around a lot of politicians. a lot of politicians that have gotten into trouble. 's inconceivable in the face of all of this stuff going on, the resignations, the statement by the port authority, the investigation by the legislative committee, that the governor doesn't call all his staff together and say what went with on. the dang fer the governor here in these documents and this period of time is evidence this
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is going to come out that he knew that there was misbehavior going on, and if he knew, then the question is going to be, did he take steps to try to cover it up. if the documents show that or hibt at that, the governor's problems are good evening from new york. i'm chris hayes. well, it's a bad day for wisconsin republican governor scott walker. all of the country right now, investigative reporters are pouring over 28,000 newly released documents related to a criminal investigation of a former walker aide. these documents have the potential to do real damage to the wisconsin governor who's up for re-election this year, we have a reporter joining us to talk about what we know so far. scott walker's bad day comes on the heels of what had been a

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