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tv   All In With Chris Hayes  MSNBCW  September 3, 2014 12:00am-1:01am PDT

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> tonight we are "all in." >> thoughts and prayers first and foremost are with mr. sotloff and his family. >> another american apparently executed by isis as the group promises more beheadings. tonight, the latest on the isis offensive and the growing muslim backlash. then, the mystery behind the fund-raiser for the police officer who killed michael brown. plus, a down on his luck ex-congressman makes good on his concession speech promise. >> i look forward to continuing to fight with all of you for the things we believe in. >> we'll tell you about eric cantor's new job. and here come the victim blamers. >> don't put naked pictures of yourself on the internet, people. >> tonight, investigation into the nude celebrity photos leaked over the weekend and why your photos could be next. "all in" starts right now. good evening from new york.
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i'm chris hayes. a horrific video posted online today by the islamic militant group isis claims to show the beheading of an american journalist. steven sotloff by an isis militant. u.s. government has not authenticated the video which comes two weeks after the release of an isis video depicting the beheading of james foley. isis said sotloff, who was kidnapped in syria last year, whose insightful dispatches for foreign policy, "time" and other news outlets brought the chaotic aftermath of the arab spring into vivid focus, they threatened he would be the next hostage killed. a statement today, the family says "the family knows of this horrific tragedy and is grieving privately." days ago shirley sotloff released her own video appealing to the isis leadership to isis for her son. jen psaki said, quote, we're sickened by this act.
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press secretary ernest said they will work to determine the video's authenticity. >> this is something the administration has obviously been watching very carefully since this threat against mr. sotloff's life was originally made a few weeks ago. our thoughts and prayers first and foremost are with mr. sotloff and mr. sotloff's family and those who worked with him. >> video released today, a man who appears to be sotloff reads a statement crafted by isis criticizing president obama over u.s. foreign policy. militant then speaks directly to the camera saying president obama is to blame for sotloff's death because of this decision to continue air strikes on isis in iraq. the militant speaks with a british accent similar to thing a accent heard in the james foley video. >> i'm barack obama -- >> we don't know when the new video was made. sotloff's appearance and certain
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statements by the isis militants in the video would seem to indicate it it was made after the video depicting the video of james foley. joining me, marie harf. what is the procedure and timeline for authenticating a video such as this? >> well, the intelligence community takes their time to make sure they can authenticate the video. as you know when we went this with james foley, there are a number of things they look at in the video to make sure it is indeed authentic. that's what they're doing right now. we want to give an answer to that as soon as possible. with james foley, it took 24 hours. obviously they're working as quickly as they can. if what we fear turns out to be true, chris, this is an incredibly sad day for the sotloff family and friends an our thoughts are with them tonight. >> does the american government know how many americans are being held by isis? >> there are a small number of americans being held. we don't give the precise number out of safety. we're putting every tool behind
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finding them and hopefully bringing them home. we also will be looking at the video from today, intelligence committee will, to find any information they can use to identify the man in the video, the isis member eventually so we can hold them accountable for what they may have done. >> how does the state department interpret these videos? seems to me there are two ways to see them. one as a kind of provocation to bait america into more attacks on isis or being sucked into an even bloodier, more protracted engagement in iraq. the other is as warning, which is the kind of surface text of these missives. we are killing these people because of you, because you have done air strikes. how does the state department and the white house understand these videos? >> well, first, there's absolutely no justification for what isis has done to james foley, possibly to steven sotloff and also to thousands, hundreds of thousands of iraqis and syrians that they have brutally terrorized as well.
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this is clearly part of isis' propaganda campaign, showing their barbaric acts to the world which make clear to everyone, most importantly people in the arab world that isis doesn't represent islam, does not speak to muslims. shows to everyone how brutal they are, which is why we're focused on putting a coalition together and continuing to take the fight to them. >> where do you see support for that coalition coming? there's been a lot of talk out of white house and state department of assembling a coalition. who are the parties in question? >> well, first and foremost, our european allies. the president and the secretary will be consulting very closely with this week at nato. at the nato conference in wales to talk about how they can help in the fight but also our allies in the region. the secretary will be traveling onward from the nato summit talking to partners in the region. people like the saudis, turks, qataris, other partners who can bring any tool they can to bear to fight this very, very serious threat. >> is the u.s. confident that those other regional powers are
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doing all they can to make sure money is not flowing into isis' coffers? >> that's certainly one of the main issues we focus on particularly with our partners in the gulf where there are private citizens who have supported isis. we worked with gulf partners to crack down on this. they know this is a shared threat. the saudis and others have been forceful in condemning isis' actions. that's a main conversation going forward. >> marie harf, thank you very much. joining me now, ayman moheyldin. obviously this is barbaric and monstrous and they're revel ining in that? what is the strategy here? >> for who? for isis, to deter america -- >> you think it's a first order -- they're doing this for the reason they say which is they are -- they don't -- the u.s. bombing campaign is hurting them. they want it to stop. >> i think you have to kind of step back a little bit to see what isis is about. isis right now is about territory.
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they're trying to take territory. they are in an ideological war with so much of the world. but they are not attacking turkey which is a muslim country, decadent western lifestyle. something they could have a fundamental difference with. what they're trying to do is take territory, solidify it, make that their control, their base of operation to launch future attacks against the world. maybe even to try to expand their conquest part of their ideology. so you got to understand that first step to be able then to see why it is they're trying to deter the u.s. from taking these actions to slow down their advance. >> at the end of the video today, there was a british citizen who we are not naming who is being threatened now with murder. you spent a lot of time in london. how is this playing in england? >> well, it depends on the community, and, you know, one of the most disturbing things i've seen in recent weeks is that there is a population of the muslim community in the uk that actually supports isis. they are not the majority. they are a very small minority,
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but day are a vocal minority and i think it raises questions about how that community in europe, in general, deals with what isis stands for and what it represents. how much tolerance we have for free speech in western societies. there are a lot of fundamental big-picture questions if you will. it poses a challenge. not only have to deal with the threat of fighting in isis-controlled territories in syria and iraq, but what happens when they decide to come back, what happens when they decide to become human weapons if you will, and come back to the western countries, the u.s., and uk and others to carry out attacks? >> you've reported in the middle east for years, in war zones, and i just want to take a moment to acknowledge and praise the work of steven sotloff who i don't want to just be this name who met this grisly end. this is someone who took on tremendous risks to report from the most brutal war zones for essentially very little money. this is a freelancer.
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there are still people taking incredible risks to tell these stories. >> nothing stings more as a journalist who works for a big corporation than to see what happened to freelancers. on a personal level. some of my best friends are freelance journalists. they take this drive to understand the middle east. complex problems very seriously, very personally. what's even more troubling, chris is the fact sometimes their recording isn't showcased. we may never have known steven sotloff's name except the fact he became a hostage and that's upsetting. >> a higher testament people take these risks to tell the stories and there's not much appetite or demand for it in the u.s. syria has been off the front pages for years and these are people who go to those places. >> that's what's so sad about this. there's a drive in united states among freelance journalists. i meet dozens of freelance journalists. everywhere i go, people who want to understand and explain back here to the u.s., when i come back to the u.s. and see this sense of apathy and lack of willing to understand what's
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happening in the middle east, i'm struck by this notion that americans may be the most informed people. they have information on their fingertips with phones but they're the least knowledgeable sometimes. they don't want to access that information, don't want to invest in understanding their government's foreign policy or what these reporters are trying to understand and that's very disturbing. >> some of the most amazing reporting that steven sotloff produced was the wake of the libyan bombing campaign against gadhafi and the chaos there. the former american embassy in tripoli has been turned into, for lack of a better word, a jihadi pool party taken over by a militia and also i think is an important thing for everyone to remember as they think about intervention or escalation against isis. such a pleasure to have you in the pleasure. >> always a pleasure to be here. the u.s. military launched additional air strikes against isis in iraq over the weekend before the video came out, on monday bringing the total number of strikes against the group to
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124. it launched strikes last night against the al qaeda linked group al shabaab who. officials tell nbc news the hell fire missiles in a remote area of southern somalia killed three suspected al shabaab militants. the top leader of al shabaab was the target. rear admiral john kirby, pentagon press secretary said today officials were assessing whether gudan was one killed in the attack. >> when i was speculating about whether he was, in fact, killed or not, i mean, he is the recognized appointed leader of the al shabaab network in somalia. so if he was killed, this is a very significant blow to their network, to their organization, and we believe to their ability to continue to conduct terrorist attacks.
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>> it's important to remember during these times when we see these images from isis and stories coming out of the middle east that most people in the muslim world view isis, al shabaab and other militant islamist groups much the way people outside of there view them. horror. 85% of palestinians oppose isis, also known as isil, while 13% support it. keep in mind, this is a population that was in the midst of a war when that poll was taken. as amnesty international wrote today, isis is responsible for ethnic cleansing on a historic scale and vast majority of people in the middle east respond to the horrifying mayhem caused by the group with animus and hatred. that sentiment extends to muslims around the world. sunday, leading british muslims issued a fatwah. describe isis as both un-islamic and morally repugnant and rejects the false claim it any way represents mainstream thought.
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joining me, senior fellow at the american task force on palestine. i wanted to have you on because you wrote a piece basically making the case, you have been arguing strenuously for a long time, i would say, from a kind of secular left middle eastern perspective for some kind of u.s. military intervention against isis. >> i think there ought to be a large international coalition. it's fallen almost entirely to the united states in support on the ground of kurdish forces and iraqi special forces only. i think there ought to be a much larger coalition. yes, i think it's very important that the united states recognize its interest in crushing this movement, particularly in iraq and in the long run in syria as well. and i think that's in the interest of a very wide coalition of forces in the middle east that are -- that know it but haven't yet taken action. >> so that seems to be the case. regionally, isis is very different from other groups because it doesn't have a sovereign client relationship.
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it's not backed by some foreign intelligence apparatus. it is its own crazy suey-generous thing. >> that's right. when they claim to be a state, when they call themselves an islamic state, they're not kidding. in a way, it is sort of a joke because it's this weird network of roads and bases and towns but it is a quasi state in the sense that it's autonomous. and western intelligence and other sources of information hold and i think plausibly that they've been financially independent for many years between the ransoms they get, the oil and cash that they've stolen and the other that they retrieve in sort of inland pirate routine they have. it's very lucrative, very profitable criminal conspiracy they have going. >> okay. you're advocating for some kind of broad coalition to, in your words, crush them. to me the question is the then what question? i don't think there was a ton of debate, are these good people, are they doing good stuff, are they good for the people whose lands they're taking?
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i remember all that was true about gadhafi in 2010, 2011 and if you look at libya today, the then what question seems to be a very scary question mark and can say about isis' progenitor, al qaeda in iraq, who then gave birth to this. >> well, the problem is the crushing of al qaeda in iraq in particular was done in way that was entirely betrayed by nuri al maliki and the iraqi government and let the iraqis essentially get away with it. they broke their own promises but they broke our promises, too. that's not something that we ever should have turned a blind eye to. the what next question is really complicated. it's a serious one and it has two different answers. one in iraq where i think you really need to look at, you know, a much greater form of federalism in iraq, and a way to empower the sunni/iraqi arabs who essentially either have not done anything to stem the wave
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of isis in their areas or have in some cases, others fought alongside them. they have to be incentivized to see isis for what it is and say, look, there's a future in much you have much less of a dominant subordination relationship with baghdad, where you get to run your own affairs. where you start to look much -- your areas look much more like the kurdish areas that are autonomous and become much more self-governing and don't have to live with these crazy people that you essentially already know you don't really like. but you relied on either out of desperation or rage. in syria, i think, it's much more about how to change the assad regime and create regime change where, in fact, there's a symbiotic relationship between isis and the assad regime where they're not allies in any meaningful sense but know how to make each other useful and rely on each other. isis depends on its popularity, for its popularity of assad's brutality and depends on isis'
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insanity -- >> to say to the rest of the world it's me or them basely. >> exactly. >> right. you wrote a piece basically saying we shouldn't -- your point is we shouldn't fall into the trap thinking some air strikes against isis -- >> there are two traps not to fall into it. one is the trap of thinking that because, you know, by striking isis in iraq you would be helping assad, therefore you shouldn't do it. that's trap one. trap two isis is so bad, you should ally with assad. >> it was a horrific american middle east policy if we ended up on the side of assad after the carnival of horrors. hussein ibish, thank you. the president is headed to estonia right now. he's headed there to tell them, i got you.
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we'll explain, ahead. every single important thing about you is on someone else's computer and the cost of that
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simple fact are becoming more and more apparent. that's ahead.
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tonight, president obama's en route to estonia where he will meet with neighbors of russia bordering nato country, reassure baltic allies and send a message to russia, itself, the u.s. takes what it views as russian aggression seriously. this after russian president vladimir putin reportedly told a european official he could, quote, take kiev in two weeks if he wanted to. russian government spokesperson said the comments were taken out of context. putin's alleged comments may not simply be boasting. if you look at what's been happening on the ground in eastern ukraine over the past couple of weeks. >> thousands of the foreign
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troops and hundreds of the foreign tanks now on the territory of ukraine. >> ukraine's forces have been winning. breaking the grip of pro-russian rebels, but the rebels are pushing back across a broad front. the clashes on land and sea with the ukrainian coast guard coming under attack. >> just back in early july, the ukrainian government made significant strides in what they were calling at the time an anti-terror campaign against russian-aligned rebels, taking back the city of slovyansk. fighting continued in the weeks after the separatist rebels apparently downed malaysia airlines flight 17 killing almost 300 people. rebels suffered several territory defeats. now over the last two weeks rebels have managed to take back significant amounts of territory. the dotted red line, dotted
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line, shows areas of eastern ukraine held by the rebels as of mid-august, and the yellow shading shows the areas rebel control as of yesterday. that's a significant expansion. right now, nato estimates there are more than 1,000 russian troops in ukraine proper. russia, it should be clear, denies this. while the u.s. has been careful not to use the word invasion, ukrainian defense official said they're fighting, a, quote, full-scale invasion. joining me now, ambassador william taylor, former ambassador to ukraine. ambassador, the president is meeting in the baltics and going to a nato meeting. is there something he can say or do at this point that's going to reassure anywhere? >> i think there is. i think he can make it clear we take this russian invasion, let's call it that, what it is, very seriously and we need to contain and deter mr. putin from these kinds of actions and in terms of actions that we can
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take that the europeans and the americans can take is we can expand the economic sanctions that are already having an effect to a broader range of russians and a deeper effect on the russian economy. and that's not enough. the sanctions are working, need to be expanded but are not enough. we should -- he could provide this military support to the ukrainians. >> why won't that just be read as an escalation by russia who will then escalate in part? people keep saying the sanctions are going to work, we can escalate the sanctions and provide military support. it seems to me the asymmetry in all of this from the beginning has been the fact eastern ukraine is in vladimir putin's backyard and not in the u.s.' and not in germany's so he has made calculations about what he wants to do there or what he thinks is important to happen there that are always going to be stronger than other powers. >> they're not going to be stronger than the international system that we put together.
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that the americans and the europeans and, indeed, the rest of the world put together after world war ii and certainly after the cold war. that system whereby nations don't invade other nations. nations don't annex parts of their neighbors. that system is important to us, it's important to europeans and it's important to world security. >> well, i mean, that system has been honored in the breach as the people in iraq will tell you in 2003, just so we're very clear about that. >> well, let's be clear about what the motivation is. the americans are not in iraq anymore, and the russians are deeply inside of ukraine. and they are taking territory. they have taken -- they have taken crimea. there's no comparison. >> right. i'm not saying there's comparison. i'm just saying the sort of notion of territorial integrity is a little hard for the u.s. to go around preaching given what we've seen over the past ten years in terms of the u.s.' record. >> the u.s. has a pretty good record of not invading countries and taking their oil, taking
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their territory, taking their assets. what we have seen the russians do is exactly that. that's not comparable. >> we're getting word the president is now ordering 350 new military personnel to protect diplomatic positions and personnel in baghdad. that wire has just crossed from the white house. so here's the other issue about nato. this is a nato meeting and the sort of core complaint emanating from russia and vladimir putin has been about this kind of nato encroachment, basically you're going to end up ultimately after the kind of pro-european, pro-western ukrainian government with ukraine as a nato member, john kerry was very careful to sort of offeree assurances away from that. do you still think that's important? >> i think it's important for the ukrainians to decide unmolested, unpressured by their russian neighbors, ukrainians
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decide what they want to do. how they want to ensure their own security. ukrainians can decide whether or not they want to apply to nato for membership. not the russians. the russians don't get a vote in that. the ukrainians get a vote and nato alliance gets a vote. >> what is the ultimate end game to this as you foresee it? i was reading some really interesting reporting from keith gesson who wrote a long dispatch from eastern ukraine. one of the things that struck me, it was that -- obviously there's tremendous amount of russian infiltration there and there's russian backing for the rebels but there's also just a lot of people in that part of you rain who were freaked out by the uprising. they don't like the new government. there's a genuine political fissure there that's going to have to be dealt with to bring this to a solution. >> that has been addressed by mr. poroshenko who was elected by every oblosk who was allowed to vote including in the east and the south.
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mr. poroshenko made a proposal to devolve some powers to local governments to be able to decide on budgets, decide on language policy, decide on local infrastructure. that kind of devolution of power makes a good sense and that would address most of the concern that these people have expressed. >> ambassador william taylor. thank you very much. appreciate it. >> thank you. after president obama leveled sanctions on a russian bank over the situation in ukraine, the bank hired two ex-u.s. senators, trent lot, john breaux, to lobby against the sanctions and they're not the only members of congress making bank literally. i'll tell you who else is bulldog: quarterback takes the snap...
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cashing in, next. as we've been documenting every night here, it's been a rough summer news wise. we're taking every opportunity we can to highlight good news. like the heartwarming story of fellow american landing on his feet after a massive setback. you remember this scrappy congressman who hit a rough patch when running for re-election when he as house majority leader lost the primary election to a candidate he outspent by an ungodly ratio, a candidate pretty much no one outside of his district had ever heard of. >> i know there's a lot of long faces here tonight, and it's disappointing, sure, but i believe in this country. i believe there's opportunity around the next corner for all of us. >> that turned out to be pretty prophetic, at least as far as eric cantor, himself, is concerned. so turn that frown upsidedown.
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because right around the corner is a boutique wall street investment bank, starting tomorrow, cantor will soon, his new role there. vice chairman, managing director. cantor will receive a total of $3.4 million for joining the bank. our crew member just rolled his eyes and nodded his head. including a cash bonus of $1.2 million in 2015. according to the company's s.e.c. filing. now, eric cantor may be moving on to the big money on wall street, but he hasn't forgotten where he came from. >> my grandparents fled religious persecution in europe in order to find a better life. my grandmother, a young jewish widow, was soon raising my dad above a grocery store in richmond just trying to make ends meet. and so it goes, two generations later her grandson would represent part of what was james
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madison's seat in the house. and then go on to serve as its majority leader. >> and then go on to serve as vice chairman of a wall street investment bank. only in america. xkç
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police officers in ferguson, missouri, are now wearing body cameras. and according to police chief thomas jackson, the cameras seem to be a real hit among members of his department. officers have been trained to use the devices after two companies donated. chief jackson telling the "st. louis post dispatch" the officers have been receptive to the gadgets. quote, they are really enjoying them. devices attached to uniforms. as chief jackson notes there's a bit of a learning curve, quote, we're still playing with them. cameras are one tangible reaction to the storm inside the ferguson police department after one of its officers, darren wilson shot and killed 18-year-old mike brown. marchers from across the country came to ferguson calling for accountability marking three weeks since the unarmed teenager was killed. his body left in street for four hours.
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officer darren wilson not only remains on paid leave. he's been the beneficiary of a wildly effective, viral campaign that's netted more than $400,000 online. journalist matt pearce of the "los angeles times" tried to get to the bottom of exactly who is behind the fund-raising efforts after two fund-raising pages bearing officer wilson's name were shut down this weekend reportedly so tax lawyers can decide how the donation need to be handled. support officer darren and support officer wilson are two separate pages collecting donations through the fund-raising site gofundme. the first page has come into question because as pearce reports its creator was anonymous. had not received certified status from gofundme. enter a representative, a democrat running for state senate, is helping with fund-raising efforts for officer wilson and tells the "l.a. times" the creator of the support officer darren wilson page is a teenage girl from the st. louis area.
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a former police officer himself, is vice president of shield of home, the charity arm of the fraternal order of policing. he says shield of hope created the second wilson fund-raising page after the mother of the creator of the first fund-raising page asked the union to take over. here's where things get strange according to matt pearce's reporting. quote, when the "times" replayed roorda's story to the anonymous account holder of the page purportedly created by the girl, responded, i have not worked with roorda and the information you have been given is false. joining me, matt. what is the story here? what's going on? >> we still don't have the story confirmed. there are essentially two stories as you pointed out, representative roorda spoke with me by phone last night and told me the story about how there was this teenage girl from the st.
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louis area who had felt moved after the shooting and all the events that came after it to raise a fund-raiser in support of darren wilson. and she apparently got freaked out by threats that were coming in against her because she apparently had her name originally linked with the page. and so her mom approached the police department and asked them to take it over. well, that's the story, but when i contacted the administrator of the page, they responded to me anonymously through gofundme that they had never spoken with representative roorda, all the information that he had given me was false, and actually i just got an e-mail from them about half an hour ago because i asked them, you know, is this still true or are you still sticking to your story that the representative is not giving the right information? they said, they said, yes, you know, so there's still -- they're still saying that they're not a teenage girl from st. louis, so we don't really know who is in control of this more than $200,000 worth of
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donations. >> that is what is so crazy here. we have two pages. one of which we know is behind it affiliated with the police union. the other one we don't know. the fact is there's $400,000. that's money that has been raised and can be claimed for some entity for darren wilson. as soon as tax lawyers get through it? like, that's real money. >> that is actual more than $200,000 worth of donations from people who donated wanting to support officer wilson, and, you know, actually gofundme spokeswoman did tell me that, you know, they had spoken with whoever was running that page and they said they didn't have a reason to believe that, you know, this person was acting fraudulently. you know, at the same time, gofundme's terms of service, you know, they don't really vouch for the donation pages that they put out. you know, gofundme purports itself as a neutral platform,
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you know, anyone can go on there and create a page for whatever cause. you know, gofundme doesn't have any kind of interest in going in there and censoring that kind of, censoring by content or fund-raiser or whatever. so you have these competing fund-raiserses for officer darren wilson and for the mike brown family and we just don't know for sure who is in charge of more than $200,000 worth of donations. >> and we also know that this was something that kind of got caught in a kind of viral updraft in the wake of media attention on ferguson and death of mike brown where it came a way for people that felt like the media attention was unfair or that darren wilson was being unfairly maligned to kind of register their dissent. do you think -- did representative roorda say at all that he was surprised by just how much money -- i mean, $400,000 is a lot of money. >> well, he did say he was overwhelmed. you know, the fraternal order of police, which he's -- or at least the watch he's vice president of, that he helps
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represent, he says he's never really seen anything like this. and, you know, they hadn't really been set up to deal with something like this. at the same time, we've seen, you know, high-profile cases in the past where you've had defendants like george zimmerman who have received a lot of critical media attention and that resulted in quite a few people making a little bit more quieter donations to his cause in support of him, and so in one way, the amount of donations that have been made to officer wilson are not surprising, and something that representative roorda told me is that in his district, the constituents that he spoke with, wanted to wait to see what would happen during the trial process. >> matt pearce of the "l.a. times." >> if there was one. >> thank you so much. there's one thing about this hack affecting hollywood celebrities that is in a weird way reassuring. 
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i'll tell you what it is, next. hollywood is reeling from the posting of nude photos of actress jennifer lawrence and other female celebrities after the apparent hacking of their private apple-hosted i-cloud accounts, backup cloud accounts that save all the images in your iphone. story is resonating everywhere because it's the latest stark reminder of the simple emerging truth that we have to look at every day. there is no privacy anymore. any privacy we think we have is pretty close to an illusion. the origins of the hack are unclear. the know toes were first posted to the website 4chan which is basically the internet's dark id, people may post photos anonymously which does little to anything to ed did, censor, or select out content. this is a flagrant violation of privacy, the authorities have been contacted and will prosecute anyone who posts the stolen photos of jennifer lawrence. several other celebrities' photos were also posted. and the fbi is aware of the allegations concerning computer
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intrusions and unlawful release of material involving high profile individuals and addressing the matter. am apple, the fault of its system, saying in a statement, after more than 40 hours of investigation we have discovered certain celebrity accounts were compromised by a very targeted attack on user names, passwords, and security questions. a practice that has become all too common on the internet. none of the cases we investigated has resulted from any breach in any of apple's systems including i-cloud or find my iphone. the breach may have not been systemwide is reassuring, but in ways we'll discuss in a moment, not so much. everybody bit of information we store or post or possess is at risk. the question is, does information want to be free? is this the natural state of things? are celebrities the canary in the coal mine? whose fault is this anyway? all that when we return.
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we're back. joining me now to talk about the death of privacy and selfie era which we live in and makes me feel like an old grandfather who wants everyone to get off his lawn, is jessica, columnist for "the guardian." she wrote a piece on celebrity hacking in "the atlantic." susan crawford. harvard law school. author of the in book "the responsive city." dan ackerman, senior editor at "cnet." your pace in "the atlantic" was great. this is a violation. if it's not sexual assault in a legal sense, it's something
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adjacent to that. >> right. the reason people are seeking out these pictures, the reason that they're so titillating, the reason they're appealing is because precisely because they're nonconsensual. there are plenty of pictures of naked women on the internet. they're not hard to find. these women put up pictures voluntarily. we're seeking out the ones women didn't want and says something about our culture and the way people still feel entitled to women's sexuality whether we want them to or not. >> it's a clear violation in the deepest sense, and now -- it's not just celebrities. i mean, that's the important point here. this is the tip of the iceberg on a phenomenon that's happening to women from your local high school, through, you know, someone that you work with. this is a real thing that happens. >> right. when it happens to people who aren't celebrities we call it revenge porn, right? there are laws around it. this is happening all the time. it's a terrible, awful thing. but it's also sort of a predictable outcome of a misogynous culture.
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>> also to me, resolved, colon, the internet is horrible to women. susan crawford, in opposition to that. >> this is technology. we're in an arms race and some people are unarmed. >> it's more than technology. it's technology, and a culture that's sick and weird toward women. >> i accept that. that culture exists offline as well as online. it's a different layer of life. we're at a very primitive stage trying to protect our own information. there are so many positive things that can be done with cloud technologies. we should back up the frame a bit and think that actually for telemedicine, for education, the cloud is everything and we haven't quite figured out how to tell people have better passwords and use double factor authentication. >> the two-factor authentication. you log in, they send you a code on text message for your g-mail or whatever e-mail service you use. okay. use that.
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but the other thing is, there is no security. like, every security regime is either bulky and terrible and the other thing, where there's a will there's a way. that's the other thing. is it going to be the case that random celebrity x or random citizen y has a security able to stop the crowd source penetration of 100 weirdos who want to break in? >> a thief will always break into a vault if he has enough time, enough resources. hundreds, thousands of people, eventually that will happen. you have to sort of balance convenience versus the degree of security that you want. and it's also because we think of sort of digital things, whether it's people's private photographs or movies or music or games as sort of shareable, that information wants to be free excuse makes people feel like it's not a crime to take or download something that isn't theirs as long as it isn't a physical product. >> i've seen this excuse floating around the internet, i'm not the one who hacked them, not the one spreading them around so it's okay for me to look at them. no, every time you seek out these pictures, click on one of these pictures, you're
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perpetuating and participating in the abuse and harassment of women. >> someone said in our editorial meeting this morning, if someone came in and said, there's a hole cut in the locker room you can go look at, you wouldn't be like, someone else cut the hole, i'll go take a look. it's clear that's a violation. >> there are a lot of human parts to the story. celebrities are just like us. take their most intimate pictures on their most intimate devices. we have to figure out how to get better at this. apple could be doing more to promote double factor authentication. they're not at fault of the human nature that had people putting pictures in the cloud. that's on balance a good thing for people to share electronic files. not theirs or others'. >> everything that's important to you on someone else's computer only works if you trust it. there's no actual reason to trust it. we trust it out of convenience. why should i trust it? either the nsa could get it or the fbi can get it with a warrant or some anonymous
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russian hacker can get it. who are we kidding? it's all just going to be out there. >> okay. let's accept that, but then let's make sure we have regimes in place that are as strong as they can be. it is an arms race. we're in this fight with each other. to try to lock down information without making it so unavailable that we can't use it. >> it is an arms race. once everyone has double factor authentication, we have to move to triple factor. once we start using our fingerprints, they're going to be cloning thumbs. >> well -- great. >> i have to say, technology aside, there's never been privacy for women. >> that's a good point. >> you know, roxanne wrote about this in her terrific column at "guardian u.s." that, you know, this has been happening to women -- >> that's why the people is this thing. >> exactly. technology has just given abusers a broader set of tulles to harass and abuse women. >> we wouldn't want to burn the village to save it frankly. technology has also given women a voice they never had. keep this in perspective and
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look at the positive uses of the cloud. >> here is my feeling, all right in it just seems to me the case that if someone with the will or determination or tactical sophistication just decides to mark you, right, and i know a lot of women who work online who have been on the receiving end of precisely this which is, like, i'm going to get your address and i'm going to get this about you and going to get that -- you are defenseless. that is the basic fact about internet security. which is that someone with sufficient technical expertise with animus combined wants to come after you, right? >> almost nothing you can do and seems to be what happened here. a group of people spent months if not years targeting people and using low-tech methods that wasn't a big super intelligent hacker collective. this was trying to get people's password reminding questions. >> the telephone was terrifying to people when it was first introduced. we're just children at this moment. we don't quite know what we're doing. >> i don't -- the other thing i think about all the time in
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regards to this is just, like, the world of teenage girls who are in situations in which they have people that they're in intimate relationships with, texting with, texting photos to and once that photo leaves your hands, it's like anything you e-mail to someone, you e-mailed to the world. once the photo leaves your hands -- that disgusting gray market of those images is out there. >> right. it's really disturbing. you and i have daughters around the same age and i don't want to know what technology is going to look like in ten years when they're teenagers. >> right. >> but there isn't anything we can do about that. right? this is the way the teenagers communicate. this is the way the people have romantic relationships now. you know -- >> that horse has left the barn. to me the point is creating some sort of cultural norm, this is wrong, looking at it as wrong, you deserve sanction for it and coming up with some way we do have some kind of, whether two-factor authentication where people can feel like they trust the data in their hands. jessica, susan crawford, author of the new book "the responsive city," out today, and david ackerman. that's "all in." "the rachel maddow show" begins now.
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thanks to you at home for joining us this hour. okay. when terrorist groups launch spectacular attacks, when terrorist groups do things that get the world's attention, that cannot only unite previously disparate allies against them, it cannot only sort of unify the world in horror, right? it can also sometimes break log jams or settle internal disputes in countries that have been thinking about taking action against said terrorist group. but they've not yet been able to decide to do that. so, for example, take al shabaab. al shabaab operates in somalia. they were initially seen as the military wing of a radical religious fundamentalist political movement called the islamic courts union. and as essentially the militia for the islamic courts union, al shabaab starting in about 2006, they were doing all the things that we associate with this group and with their ilk. they were stoning people to death, they wereti

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