tv All In With Chris Hayes MSNBC October 8, 2014 5:00pm-6:01pm PDT
it's what we saw in the holocaust but we didn't get a chance to stop then, but we do now. and that's "hardball" for now. thanks for being with us. "all in with chris hayes" starts now. >> tonight on "all in" -- >> this hurts deeply, and we were hoping this was not going to happen. >> the first patient diagnosed with ebola in the u.s. dies. as another possible patient gets admitted to the same hospital in dallas, and the government steps up screenings at five american airports. >> we think that the risk of an outbreak here in the united states is exceedingly low. >> tonight, questions about what our protocols are and whether they are being properly followed. plus, border fear mongering. >> at least ten isis fighters have been caught coming across the mexican border in texas. no, no, they haven't. then "all in" goes to coal country. >> we're called the saudi arabia of coal. we have got to find a way to use that coal, use it in a clean
way. >> we travel to mississippi to a state of the art clean coal factory to ask, is clean coal for real? >> clean coal harnesses the awesome power of the word "clean." >> "all in" starts now. >> coal clean. good evening from new york. i'm chris hayes. for the first time a patient being treated for ebola on u.s. soil has died. thomas eric duncan, the liberian man with first case of ebola diagnosed in the u.s. died this morning in dallas just under two weeks after first reporting symptoms. >> this hurts deeply, and we were hoping this was not going to happen. but on behalf of the city of dallas, i extend our deepest sympathies to the families and the friends of mr. duncan. >> duncan's girlfriend louise, the woman he came to the u.s. to marry and who is herself currently under quarantine released a statement expressing her grief. >> eric was a wonderful man who
showed compassion toward all. i trust a thorough examination will take place regarding all aspects of his care. i'm now dealing with the sorrow and anger that his son was not able to see him before he died. duncan hadn't seen his son in 16 years since he was 3. now another possible patient has been admitted to the same hospital in dallas where duncan died this morning. michael monig with the dallas sheriff's office had been part of the team that visited the apartment where thomas duncan fell ill. >> this patient had reported that they initially had been in the apartment in the initial ebola patient in dallas and had some contact with family members. i'd like to emphasize that at this time our information was they had not had contact with the patient, but family members, and they'd also been inside the apartment. >> while we are being told the risk is minimal, out of an overabundance of caution we're taking several actions to make sure the public health, safety and welfare is being protected.
>> as part of efforts to prevent the spread of ebola in the u.s., five major airports will begin screening passengers arriving from liberia, sierra leone and guinea, taking their temperatures and requiring them to fill out a questionnaire. public health officials say the virus won't be completely contained around the globe until it is contained in west africa. but in the meantime, the rest of the world has to be ready to respond according to the well established protocols that helped wipe out past epidemics. the track record has not been entirely reassuring. in dallas, duncan was initially sent home from the hospital with some antibiotics even though he told a nurse he had just come from liberia. in spain where a nurse who treated ebola patients has become the first person to contract the virus outside of africa, a pair of missteps in the response have raised serious questions according to an account in spanish press reports in the daily beast. a nurse called the hospital several times over a matter of days to report symptoms and there was no reaction until she
was badly ill and begging for an ebola test. she went to the emergency room and sat for hours without protective gear. quote, i think i have ebola, she reportedly told anyone who would listen. we do know the earlier ebola is identified and treated, the better the chances of the person's survival and recovery. leads people to ask if things would have turned out differently if the hospital had admitted duncan when he first showed up with symptoms. joining me is congresswoman eddie bernice johnson. your reaction to mr. duncan's death today? >> there's a quiet calmness here, a lot of concern. people that have felt that they've done all they know to do, they've been supporting of the family. i have full confidence that his treatment was superb when he was admitted to the hospital. and we are very sorry that he
has died, and we have great sympathy and empathy for the family. >> you have full confidence despite the fact that he was sent home for two days with antibiotics upon first entering the hospital? >> well, as i've said before, the glitch was he was sent home. but when he was admitted, he's had top line treatment. the best we could offer, the best we had available. sending him home is still a question in my mind and i'm certain in the minds of many. we've not had an opinion yet from any infectious disease specialist indicating whether or not it would have made a difference had he been admitted at that time. >> have you been in contact personally with the family? have dallas officials? i know the county judge went over and actually introduced himself to them. have you been in contact with them? >> i have not been in contact with them personally. i have been in touch with all the elected officials and health
providers, but i've not yet been in touch with the family. >> what do you want to see happen here from a policy perspective? it seems like dallas is monitoring the people they need to monitor. obviously this sheriff's deputy has now been admitted. he's being monitored for signs. the administration has announced these checkpoints or new screening protocols in five airports. do you think that things are under control? >> well, in my judgment, i think things are under control. we had a wake-up call. it was not expected. i think we did rise to the occasion. we are trying to get rid of the contaminated materials. i've been in touch with the u.s. department of transportation to make sure that we can expedite the transport of that material to the proper disposal. i'll be attending a hearing on friday morning with the homeland security looking at what else or anything else we need to do in terms of screening people coming
into the country. we really have to depend a great deal on the truthfulness of those persons answering those questionnaires. >> congresswoman eddie bernice johnson, thank you so much. >> thank you very much. >> joining me now bonnie castillo from national nurses united. i've been seeing there has been no small amount of fear mongering over a disease that, frankly, at this point, probably poses far less of a threat to the american populous than just the flu which kills lots of people every flu season. that said, you guys have been raising some alarms, concerns about whether there's adequate training for frontline nurses around the country in these hospitals to follow protocol that would both protect them and the public should ebola patients come into the hospital. >> that's correct. and in fact, early detection, isolation and treatment is critical. and that clearly didn't happen here. and more importantly, what we're seeing from our survey and over
1700 nurses have responded from over 600 hospitals in the united states, and overwhelmingly they're saying that they have not only not received basic policy for admission of ebola patients but more importantly haven't received the interactive training and education that is so critical for the whole health care team to have in order to treat the patients appropriately. >> explaining the breakdown because we've talked to dr. anthony fauci, we talked to someone in a rhode island hospital about these training protocols in the 5700-plus around their hospitals around america we're told the cdc has distributed training mechanisms. are you saying those aren't getting to the nurses? >> that's correct. so while the hospitals may be handing out a guideline and a website for reference, that is no substitute for the actual hands-on interactive education
and training of all the health care personnel, anyone who is interfacing with that patient from triage treatment to waste disposal. it's so critical that everybody knows their role. without that, we're going to see lapses and just like we saw in dallas. so that's why registered nurses are sounding the alarm, will continue to sound the alarm if our hospitals are not prepared. >> but is this sort of adding to the panic by doing this? i mean, do you worry about the fact that the perception of the threat of ebola at this point is probably already out of whack with what it actually is. do you worry about adding fuel to that fire? >> well, actually, all registered nurses know and anyone that's involved in disaster planning knows that in the way to avoid panic and chaos is to be prepared, to be and for all of the health care team to be aware of the hospital plans having, as i said, interactive education where they can ask the
questions, where they can do the drills, short of that, no one is aware of potentially what they should be doing at any given time. and clearly, dallas was an example of where, you know, this patient was sent home and potentially infected others and where the waste was not properly disposed of, and so that's why we are, you know, continuing to survey but in addition to surveying, we're going to continue to raise it with the public and with our hospitals and with our public officials. >> bonnie castillo, thank you very much. it is important to keep in mind that thomas eric duncan's death is the first and only death from ebola in the u.s. as reported on this show, two people died in this country playing high school football last week. let's keep the scale in perspective. nevertheless, ebola has become a panic du jour especially in the part of the right wing where it
dovetails with the hint of conspiracy theory. this is the homepage of the drudge report today. >> the problem dealing with ebola can't be divorced from politics. and more significantly the ebola scare goes to the heart of a simple question -- do you trust the government? >> the centers for disease control is holding a presser as we speak. i'm not covering what the centers for disease control says. i don't trust them. >> in these countries, they do not believe in traditional medical care. so someone could get off a flight and seek treatment from a witch doctor that practices santeria. this is a bigger fear. we are hoping they come to hospitals in the u.s. they might not. >> obama, familial connection with africa. he has an enormous amount of, i think, core ties to the african continent. he's mindful of his own family history there. >> you shake hands with someone with a fever, go hike this, and
you're dead meat. >> and the panic appears to be catching on. a medical professor is describing it as hypochondria on a massive scale. bloomberg hand sanitizers sales jumped 20%. all sales of $125 five-pack of protective suits jumped 233% on amazon in just a 24-hour period. that's not all. the chicago-based company lifesecure offers what they call an extended infection protection kit. the low, low price of $149.95. and according to the huffington post they sold over 100 of them last week. joining me is founder and president of lifesecure. business is booming, i take it? >> business is booming since the headlines came to dallas, we've seen the best way to tell you is just in the last few days our sales of infection protection products are up 45 times what they were about a week ago. people are starting to really pay attention to the headlines. >> but you are profiting off of panic, right? the odds that the lifesecure
kits sold by your business prevents someone from contracting ebola are so vanishingly thin, they would almost be unquantifiable. >> i think what we're really seeing here is not so much people thinking that they're going to contract ebola and need to protect against it, this is a reminder to them that we do have to be concerned about infectious diseases through pandemic flus and any time there's a infection in other countries it's as close as a flight to them. they are taking what they think is commonsense action. >> is there some kind of psychological pal yachtive that comes with purchasing something localizing your anxiety in a purchase so if you're worried about something, you can buy this thing and feel like, well, i've done something. i've checked that off my to-do list? >> well, i think as i talk to people who buy these products, yes, there is a measure of what
i have done what i can do for the moment. but i'm really not seeing panic amongst those who are buying these supplies. >> is chaos good for lifesecure? >> well, chaos is not good. preparation is good. chaos is not good for anyone. in the end, the products we sell have to be bought before the crisis comes. so the time for preparation is before the crisis. when the crisis happens, it's really too late. so we talk about being secure and looking ahead and that's what's important for people i think to do. >> david scott, thank you very much. why did the department of homeland security smack down some congressional republican today? i'll tell you ahead. the most famous name in election forecasting will be here to talk about all the craziness now messing this carefully constructed forecast in the midterm model. goodnight. goodnight. for those kept awake by pain the night is anything but good.
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right now isis fighters are a few hupd yards from the border and not the u.s. border. militants are on the cusp of taking over the syrian town of kobani, a kurdish town on the border with turkey. kurdish fighters are asking the turks to do more and protesters inside turkey are demanding the same. reuters reporting 21 people have been killed in clashes between protesters and police so far. kurdish forces are doing their best to fend off the isis fighters with very mixed results. a kurdish intelligence official telling the atlantic if more help doesn't come, quote, a terrible slaughter is coming. meanwhile u.s. air strikes overnight hit around kobani but the pentagon itself said air strikes alone will not save the
town of kobani. right now if you're a turkish politician, you are looking at the possibility of isis on your border. if you're an american politician, you are not looking at the possibility of isis on the border. no matter how many times you repeat the claim and it's getting repeated a lot. earlier this week republican congressman tom cotton said groups like isis collaborate with mexican drug cartels, a claim that's been made over and over again in one form or another by conservative websites, yet the most flagrantflagrant ly irresponsible comment came from duncan hunter. >> do you have any information or evidence that they're actually coming in the southern border now? >> yes, yes i have information -- >> tell me what you know. >> i know that at least ten isis fighters have been caught coming across the mexican border in texas. >> how do you know that? >> because i've asked -- because i've asked the border patrol, greta. >> and the border patrol they just let isis members come across the border? >> no, they caught them at the
border. therefore we know that isis is coming across the border. >> kudos by the way to greta van susteren for being appropriately skeptical of that series of claims. categorically false and not supported by any credible intelligence or the facts on the ground. >> let's zoom out for a second and use a little common sense. imagine in the current news environment that i.c.e. did nab 10 or a dozen isis fighters on the southern border. you really think it wouldn't get covered on the news? you think fox news wouldn't be running with that 24 hours a day? that it wouldn't be the biggest story in the country? i can assure you it absolutely would be. and certainly the news would not be broken by congressman duncan hunter or something you'd have to read off your uncle's facebook page. i asked for a response. >> right after i heard his comments, we contacted the
department of homeland security, and they said unequivocally there's absolutely no evidence to support this claim that anyone from isis or any other terrorist organization for that matter has been apprehended on the border with mexico. >> you represent el paso. el paso has a twin city relationship with ciudad juarez which has been in the news for trafficking and drug cartels and all sorts of things that can make you feel nervous or scared about what might be coming over. so if there's any place that would be the frontlines of being worried about this threat that republicans keep harping on, it would be you. so what's your feeling about it? >> well, you know, i live here on the border, my family's here. i represent 750,000 people who are literally on the border with mexico. and so i think we have the most to be concerned about should there be a real threat. that's why i checked with the department of defense, the department of homeland security,
the fbi, any and all people who might have any intelligence to suggest that there is a real threat from terrorists. we also have about $18 billion a year, 20,000 agents on the border patrol whose number one mission is preventing terrorists and weapons of mass destruction from entering this country. and yet, despite any outstanding concerns, el paso remains the safest city in the united states. it has been for the last four years. there have never been and are not now known any terrorist plots successful or unsuccessful connected to the border with mexico. so this is not a new rumor. and unfortunately, it keeps coming up even though it is completely false. and it detracts from what i think the important issue is that we do have threats to this country and those threats come through our airports or they're threats manifest from our own fellow citizens who become radicalized and we've had terrorists who have attempted to cross the canadian border. with you our southern border with mexico is today as safe as
it has ever been and it has never been connected to a terrorist plot that i know of or that dhs or anyone else can tell me about in the history of this country. doesn't mean that it couldn't happen down the road, doesn't mean that we shouldn't be vigilant against that possibility, but what it does mean is that this is the safest that this border has ever been and we should focus where we have the greatest risk. >> striking what you said, obviously, al qaeda pulled off a tremendously horrific mass murder terrorist attack in the u.s. it wasn't via the mexican border. there have been a bunch of other plots attempted, some have almost come to fruition, there have been terrorist attacks inside the country from the boston marathon bombing to the ft. hood shooting. in 13 years there's been nothing -- i mean, there's an actual concrete record of what al qaeda affiliates, associates, sympathizers have done and in 13 years none of it's come from the southern border. >> right. and again, it doesn't mean that that might not happen. it doesn't mean that terrorist
organizations might not be considering the southern border and that we shouldn't remain vigilant against that. i think we are. we're spending record amounts of money with record presence of law enforcement. i mentioned the border patrol, but we also have ft. bliss in el paso, 31,000 active duty service members here plus a strong contingent of fbi, dea, great local police and sheriff's department. san diego is another very safe city that's very close to tijuana and the mexican border, but the conditions really aren't great for terrorists trying to cross here despite what you might hear from folks in d.c. and elsewhere. beyond the border patrol, beyond this preponderance of federal law enforcement and department of defense assets along the border, you also have in mexico a very militarized situation. >> yes. >> not a lot of people want to talk about it. but ciudad juarez is controlled by the cartel, the mexican police force, the mexican army, federal police all have a
presence in northern mexico. none has any interests at all in terrorists exploiting that border. that doesn't begin to talk about the business interests on both sides of the border where we have half a trillion dollars in trade that pass through our ports of entry between mexico and the united states every year. so it's in no one's interests to allow this to happen. doesn't mean we shouldn't guard against it, but there's no proof that's happening right now. >> if you're a would-be isis fighter good luck trying to navigate the mexican military police and the cartel as you attempt to move through. congressman beto o'rourke, thank you very much. >> thank you. >> a town with a championship winning team has canceled football season. man: [ laughs ] those look like baby steps now. but they were some pretty good moves. and the best move of all? having the right partner at my side. it's so much better that way. [ male announcer ] have the right partner at your side. consider an aarp medicare supplement insurance plan, insured by unitedhealthcare insurance company.
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sayerville, new jersey is a football town. the bombers have won the state sectional championship three times in the last four years. the bombers will not be playing another single football game this year, the rest of the season's canceled. here's why. >> the sayreville football program will not get a shot at the title this yearp about the school is a focus of a criminal investigation following a hazing scandal. >> no one has been charged let alone convicted but the fact that local police brought this to the attention of the school and the local prosecutor who is currently investigating them suggests something's pretty rotten within the football team locker room. still the players' parents north particularly happy about the move voicing their displeasure last night at the school board meeting. >> these kids aren't monsters. >> i haven't seen more dedication out of my son. and i want him to play the rest
of this season. >> these kids are going through a lot right now. you guys had no respect for us as parents to talk to us before you talked to the media. you should have came to us first. >> i just have one question. when is the next board election? >> late today a report from nj.com bloke what some of those disturbing hazing rituals are alleged to be. a player's parent said for ten seconds the light would go off and they'd grab a freshman. he'd be pinned to the locker room floor his arms and feet pinned down then he'd be lifted to his feet while a finger was forced into his rectum. sometimes the finger was then shoved into the freshman player's mouth. this happened almost every day in the locker room this fall. maybe with these details now public, some of those parents may have a different opinion. there was one person there last night in that town hall who was able to put the cancellation of the football season into
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remains a big deal. let alone the supreme court and what the budget will look like in the next two years. but i also wonder if this year's apathy perhaps in the coverage if not among everyday voters has something to do with the era of election forecast modeling. maybe there seems to be much less uncertainty these days. one of the gripping things was that you didn't know what was going to happen. with algo rhythms predicting who will win a particular race there seems to be less election year mystery. nate silver, the most famous election forecaster is not only the only game in town. a crowded field. journalists whose job it is to predict elections at "the new york times," huffington post, and they seem to be converging in the neighborhood of a 60% chance when it comes to republicans having a shot at gaining the senate majority. but here's the thing. human beings in some ways are good at defying predictions and politicians are good at
re-establishing uncertainty. pat roberts looked like a sure thing, now after chad taylor, the democrat dropped out of the race and there's no longer a democratic threat you have an independent named greg orman who has, according to nate's model, a 67% chance to become the first non-republican elected to the senate from the sunflower state since 1932. so give you an idea how fluid the situation is right now after being down as much as 10 points in polling, a new poll out today from cnn has roberts ahead by 1 point. in south dakota, which was on no one's radar screen, you have another race that's received essentially no coverage because again there was a republican, former governor mike brown who was poised to run away with the thing, a deeply red state. now looking at a tight race not between the brown and rick wieland. no the former republican senator a guy by the name of larry
pressler who is running as an independent. all this is a reminder with less than 30 days until the midterms, anything really can happen. joining me now nate silver, founder of fivethirtyeighth. i'm a big believer in the fundamentals of the model that you have built and others are just about the fact that there are certain things that have a correlation with election outcomes and there's ways you can look at the demographics, but we're seeing a lot of genuinely crazy stuff happening no one could have predicted. the kansas race is just an amazing turn of events. and it seems right now according to the polling very hard to get your arms around what's going on there. >> yeah, there's a lot of uncertainty both nationally and in individual states. where you have states like kansas with a 10 point lead for orman to a 5 point lead for roberts. because it's a low turnout election probably, that makes it harder if you're trying to guess who is going to vote and not just who they're going to vote
for because it's hard to get people on the phone nowadays. response rates in the industry are pretty dismal. our model assumes a lot of uncertainty. republicans have a 56% of winning a majority. other people are a bit higher but you look at factors that predict if the polling will be unpredictable, you have undecided voters, disagreement and low quality polls, that means that we know less about what will happen. >> in a midterm election where there's lower turnout it is harder to get accurate polling. >> think about the primary, all the disasters we had in new hampshire in 2008. >> eric cantor primary. >> that's off by 8 points. senate's a lot better but not like a presidential year. if this were a presidential year republicans have a pretty good path to seven seats and a 3-point lead at this stage means a lot, but it's not. we have less polling and lower
turnout and more uncertainty. >> then you have south dakota, which i admit i'm a full-time journalist, i follow politics, i had sort of known that larry pressler was running. but all of a sudden the polls show pressler and rounds basically neck and neck. >> it is crazy. it was one of the quixotic campaigns where he wasn't expecting to win. he said if i win i'll demand a recount on my own win. we're seeing dissatisfaction with incumbents. you see incumbents in some states in both parties lose ground. pat roberts is kind of the ultimate incumbent. >> yep. >> so a very dramatic turn of events in south dakota. we should say this is not yet kansas. you have one poll showing ber i pressler close. >> and in kansas we're pretty sure even if roberts is ahead, it's a real race. he is no sure thing. then there's the question of alaska which is proving to be this really intense race.
you got mark begich there who is the incumbent, son of a congressman running against a republican attorney general. and it's just been impossible to get good polling out of that state. >> yeah, i tend to think alaska is not as complicated a case as states like kansas where you have a pretty clear consensus of nonpartisan polls that show sullivan. alaska historically they tend to be too generous to democrats. but that's a strange state. begich has an operation that he brags about. sometimes that stuff is bs, but sometimes like in nevada in 2010 he bragged a lead in the poll and he did. >> finally a bunch of fox news polls came out tonight which is probably the strongest round of republican polling so far. what's your take on that some. >> they didn't have much effect on our model. the reason is that we have a way to detect if a poll has a consistent what we call a house effect, so a lean toward one party. if you're showing a certain party, republicans in in case,
doing four or five points better than any pollster does, that just means that your technique is different. it might be right. there's a lot of uncertainty. could still have a big republican year, but when fox was in the state, the polling shifts, not so much in our model. we look at which side the poll ends up upon. >> thanks very much. this week we're in coal country. the third installment of the series, we explore the last best option for people who still want to burn coal. stay with us. keeping a billion customers a year flying, means keeping seven billion transactions flowing. and when weather hits, it's data mayhem. but airlines running hp end-to-end solutions are always calm during a storm. so if your business deals with the unexpected, hp big data and cloud solutions make sure you always know what's coming - and are ready for it. make it matter. cozy or cool? exactly the way you want it ... until boom,
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baker hughes is involved heavily in track fracking. some workers on oil and gas sites are routinely exposed to high levels of benzene which can cause cancer. the pink drill bits are the most ludicrous piece of pink exmettive they've seen all year and called it the most egrejous example of pink washing they're ever seen. up next we'll examine something else that sounds great at first, clean coal. ♪ ♪ [ female announcer ] when the pressure's on... only secret offers clinical strength invisible solid and clear gel with 100% odor protection. secret clinical strength. with 100% odor protection. you owned your car for four you named it brad. you loved brad. and then you totaled him.
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extracting at a rate that is unbelievable. >> coal is also under enormous pressure because burning it spews more carbon into the air than any other energy source. with the science of climate change now settled the world and u.s. regulators have concluded that is simply not sustainable. there's one last best hope for those who want to keep burning coal. we travel to mississippi to learn what it's all about. >> it's been said that united states is the saudi arabia of coal. if we can develop the technology to capture the carbon pollution released by coal, it can create jobs and provide energy well into the future. >> big coal has a problem. it's dirty, it's dangerous and it's desperate to stay competitive with solar, wind and natural gas. but the coal industry has a plan. they call it clean coal. and politicians can't get enough of it. >> we need clean coal technology. >> clean coal technology. >> clean coal technology. >> in nuclear and clean coal
technology. >> wind and solar and clean coal. >> oil, clean coal, natural gas. >> and it is so important that clean coal be part of that energy future. >> but is there really such a thing as clean coal? >> clean coal's like a healthy cigarette. it does not exist. >> the biggest problem with burning coal is that it releases massive amounts of carbon into the atmosphere. carbon traps heat and warms the planet. the idea behind clean coal is to capture much of that carbon as it's being released and then put it underground. it's called ccs, carbon capture and storage. >> we capture the co-2 emitted by burning fossil fuel, compress it into a liquid which is transported to a storage site then store it safely and permanently underground. >> sounds great, if it works, but despite the federal government investing billions, it mostly hasn't. this is the $5.6 billion kemper
county energy facility, one of the most expensive domestic power plants ever built and perhaps clean coal's best hope. "all in" went to eastern mississippi to see. >> there's nobody in the world doing more to try to combat carbon emissions in a clean, efficient way. >> when it opens the kemper plant is supposed to capture 65% of the ka carbon dioxide it generates giving it a carbon footprint similar to natural gas. >> this will be, when it comes online, the clean es coal fired plant in the world. >> ed holland is a ceo of mississippi power, a subsidiary of southern company, which has received more than half a billion dollars in federal government grants and tax credits for the kemper facility. >> we have 250 years of coal reserves in this country. we're called the saudi arabia of coal. we've got to find a way to use that coal, use it in a clean way and an efficient way. >> kemper uses a low grade form
of coal called lignite which it mines from a massive deposit right next to the facility. >> that's a giant pile of lignite. >> it goes up a conveyor belt to a gas fier which is coal is turned into a gas before being burned. >> coal has hydrogen and carbon in it. if we heat the coal up, we can turn it into a gas. we can take away 65% of the carbon and be left with a fuel that's mostly hydrogen. >> in november, energy secretary earnest moniz toured the kemper facility. >> the plant of the future. they're going to need not ten, maybe 100 more of these plants across the country in the future. >> that's a lot of optimism for a facility which is facing significant delays and is now more than a billion and a half dollars over budget. while the captured carbon will be put into the ground, that's
far from the full story. >> we will be actually selling the carbon dioxide to an oil company to help them take more petroleum out of the ground. >> you heard that right. the carbon captured by this clean coal plant is going to facilitate oil drilling. >> this plant is dirty. it's expensive. and it's unnecessary. clean coal is nothing more than a madison avenue adman's version of reality. >> but the people behind mississippi power argue that since the world is going to keep burning coal, you might as well do it cleanly. >> we would all over time like to get to a point in time where we don't have to generate with coal or we don't have to generate even with nuclear, but we're not there and it's 40, 50 years and we may never get there. >> when we come back, i'll talk clean coal with jeff biggers. one of the best chroniclers for what coal has meant for america.
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money? time and money. awesome. awesome! awesome! awesome! awesome! (all) awesome! i love logistics. is regular clean clean enough for your family? not when you can have clean coal clean. clean coal harnesses the awesome power of the word "clean." to make it sound like the cleanest clean there is. >> that satirical ad from the coen brothers. one of those opponents is jeff
biggers. i've long admired your work on coal. >> thanks for having me, chris. a pleasure. >> so i want to make the case for clean coal. and i want you to -- >> okay. >> i want you to tell me where i'm wrong. first thing i would say is there is a ton of coal in this world. china and india particularly are pulling up tons of coal. 79% of all electricity in china is from coal. you have to imagine that there are internal forces that are going to keep them using coal for a long time. if you can find a way to massively reduce the emissions or even marginally, wouldn't that be a great thing? >> it would be a great thing, but you have to realize there are other ways that are even greater, even better and even more feasible. you know, chris, i'll never forget doing my research about clean coal and i found an ad in 1895 in the "chicago tribune" about smoke-free clean coal.
for the past 120 years we've been trotting out this slogan of clean coal really in denial of the incredible impact that the coal industry's had on coal miners and communities that live nearby and now on our own climate. so i think the idea is instead of perpetuating this slogan for another 120 years, why don't we begin to look at other options like germany and many other countries? >> let's stay on the point here. this is a $5.6 billion facility, it's not a slogan. they're trying to capture the carbon and trying to reduce by about 35% the amount or by 65% the amount of carbon that goes into the air. if you can get that thing working and if you can get it to scale and you can get that technology passed around, like why do you think that would be a bad idea regardless of whether the coal industry has been trying to sell us a bill of goods for a hundred years? >> well, because we need to talk about the dirty secrets they never talk about.
first dirty secret is in order to operate a ccs plant you have to use 20 to an estimated 40% more energy to capture those carbon emissions. what does that mean? that's 20% to 40% more coal mining production and its incredible fallout in coal mining communities including methane release. the second aspect -- >> wait, i want to make sure i am understanding you. you are actually using energy to run that process and so the net reduction in emissions is actually less than it first appears because you're mining more coal to produce the same unit of btu? >> precisely. and scientists have been all over this. you essentially have to have at least 20% more energy to operate these sort of experimental plants. i think the key word, chris, is to keep in mind that kemper is still a very experimental plant that really hasn't even come online yet. you know, peabody energy, which is the world's largest coal company, released an incredible statement last september saying, hey, ccs is not commercially
viable. we're not buying into this. i feel like if the world's largest privately owned coal company doesn't buy into ccs, then why are we investing billions upon billions into somehow capturing this. but that's not the only dirty secret. there's more. >> so peabody said this is not commercially viable, we're out. you guys, you know, spend your federal subsidies and roll the dice on this, but we don't think this can ever be brought to scale in a way that's going to meet market demand? >> right. they're not alone. for example, the international energy agency said, okay, if we go through with this, we're going to need at least 100 plants like kemper to actually have any kind of mitigating effect on climate change. so within six years we need to put online a hundred plant likes ke kemper. do the math. we'll say $6 billion, we're talking over, you know, $600
billion, a half a trillion dollars to chase the fallacy of carbon capture and storage when in fact we could be investing that in much wiser, much better areas of a transition for a cleaner energy agenda. >> so those other things, right, whether they're wind or solar, the knock on them is i hear the same knock from the skeptics on that as i'm hearing from you about clean coal. it is not ready, doesn't work without subsidies. what do you say to that? >> i'm saying look at the experience of germany, look at the experience of australia, look at the experience of so many other countries now including our own. i right now am in iowa where we're doing this interview and iowa now is producing 30% of its energy production, electricity production from wind power. so it's no longer a matter of begging the president to put solar panels on the white house. we're talking about massive breakthroughs every day. chris, also i think part of the dirty secret we have to talk about is the billions of dollars, tens the of billions of dollars now hundreds of billions
of dollars over the years we're sub ssidizing the coal industry when we could have spent that in many other ways. >> that's "all in" for for example. rachel maddow starts right now. >> thanks to you at home for joining us this hour. when dr. kent brantly got sick in liberia, he had been working in that country trying to stop the ebola epidemic. he'd been treating ebola patients. and ebola, even in places with a lot of cases, even in places that don't have health systems that are in great western shape, even in those places ebola is not always fatal. some ebola patients survive. and when doctor kent brantly got sick himself in liberia, he got two things in terms of treatment. he got access to a very, very rare dose of the scarce and hard to manufacture experimental treatment for ebola which is