tv The Last Word With Lawrence O Donnell MSNBC October 22, 2014 10:00pm-11:01pm PDT
that is pretty nice. >> politicians actually get training in how to take their mug shots now. sign of the times. thanks. >> thanks, rachel. >> well, tonight, we're going to cover what the official autopsy of michael brown does and most importantly does not tell us about the killing of michael brown by ferguson police officer darren wilson. a sad and tragicy for our city and our country. >> a soldier was shot outside the war memorial. >> a man with a rifle shooting at a bunch of people. >> he ran up the side of this building and hijacked a car at
gunpoint. >> more shots fired at the nearby parliament building. >> i happy this pop, pop, pop. >> the doors are locked. i'm here alone, just watching the entire thing unfold in front of me. >> just think someone actually got in the building with a gun is very, very disturbing. >> the gunman killed in that exchange of fire. >> his name, michael zehaf-bibeau, a common syrian surname. >> increased concern about isis-inspired terrorism in canada. >> when it comes to dealing with terrorist activity -- >> we will not be intimidated. canada will never be intimidated. >> canada and the united states have to be entirely in sync. >> this is the day that changes everything. corporal was standing shot
at war memorial. they gave cpr to the 24-year-old father. after killing corporal cirillo, the gunman made his way to the parliament building about 400 yards away and open fire once again. [ gunshots ] >> the gunman was shot and killed inside the building by the sergeant-at-arms identified as joseph michael hall who changed his name is michael
zehaf-bibeau. he had charges ranging from drug charges to an arrest for robbery in british columbia. according to the vancouver sun, no group has claimed responsibility for the attack, which is the second one this week against a canadian soldier. on monday a 25-year-old recent muslim convert hit two canadian soldiers with a car, killing one. yesterday officials raised canada's threat level from low to medium. canadian prime minister stephen harper said this today -- >> in the days to come, we will learn more about the terrorist and any accomplices he may have had. but this week's events had a grim reminder that canada is not immune to the types of terror attacks we have not elsewhere around the world. let there be no misunderstanding, we will not be intimidated. canada will never be intimidated. >> this is afternoon president obama said this --
>> it emphasizes the degree to which we have to be vigilant when it comes to dealing with these kinds of acts of senseless violence or terrorism. i pledge it is always to make sure our national security teams are coordinating very closely, given not only as canada, one of our closest allies in the world, but they're our neighbors and our friends and, you know, it's very important for us to recognize that when it comes to dealing with terrorist activity, that canada and the united states has to be entirely in sync. we have been in the past. i'm confident we will continue to do so in the future. >> with me now, chloe, journalist for cbc ottawa. were you one of the people who was locked down today? the lockdown extended beyond the parliament building. >> for a long portion of the day, about continue hours, most of downtown ottawa was locked
down. reporters who were out reporting on what was happening couldn't get back into the building, so they were outside for a long time. eventually got back in. around 8:30 the lockdown was lifted for our building and then for parliament, although some streets are still in the perimeter they are investigating. >> how quickly is information developing on the case and the issue of did this shooter act alone? >> there was a lot of confusion, especially earlier in the day. the shooter that was killed in the parliament building, that happened early in the day, but police continue the lockdown, said they were looking for suspectses. they hadn't ruled out there was another suspect. so, a lot of confusion surrounding that. also, there was confusion surrounding where the shootings had actually occurred. we knew there was one at
national war memorial and we knew it happened at parliament as well. unclear whether it was the same shooter for a long part of the day. there was also there was a shooting at rideau centre, and then it was confirmed that did not happen which is not far from capitol hill or war memorial. >> what will happen at the parliament building tomorrow? >> it seems as though they're going to return to business as usual. it was a long day for a lot of people, obviously, being in lockdown for so many hours. some people, you know, in rooms seclude the without much to eat, so probably a difficult for a lot of people. it seems as though we want to move forward and it seems as though prime minister harper has been saying, you know, we're not going to be backed down, we're not going to be intimidated and we're not going to let this stop us from going on with our daily lives as we go into tomorrow, i guess.
>>. >> thank you for joining us tonight. >> you're welcome. >> joining me, two members of the canadian parliament, tony clement and tony day. tony clement, this day under lockdown, when did it begin for you and when did you finally know it was over? >> well, wednesday is caucus day for the main political party's caucuses, so the conservative party, the government party were having our caucus in our regular room. prime minister was addressing caucus, as he does every week on the main issues of the day. and we just heard this two large bangs or booms. because there was construction going on in parliament hill, i thought it was sheets of metal or something that crashed. then we heard the rat-a-tat-tat
of gunfire right outside our door. so, the first thing to do was get the prime minister out of there, secure his safety. then two things happened. some of us escaped and barricade ourselves in offices we could find and others barricade themselves in the caucus room until it was safe to come out. >> do we have any information how many shots were fired inside the parliament building? >> no, i'm somewhat more removed than tony was at the time. i'm down a floor and a little bit further to the west. all i can say is what i heard which was a number of boom, boom, booms. like tony, i thought, this is just construction. then the security people came rushing towards our caucus room and hustled everybody out the door. we all went out the door and huddled in the back of the parliament buildings and then construction worker suggested to us, it's probably not a good idea to just stand around huddling. you should stand behind
something, so we went and stood behind some monument so we had some protection in the event that some extra shooting might occur. but it really didn't strike us as -- didn't really know what was going on until you skirted the perimeter of parliament and then got out onto the wellington street and saw the massive response on the part of police and other security services. >> tony clement, what will happen in the parliament building tomorrow? >> well, i think you've heard the reporting that the prime minister wants as much as humanly possible to return to business as usual. that means there would be a sitting of parliament. parliamentary would sit and vote on laws. i'm a cabinet member and i fully intend to have a treasury meeting i have scheduled for tomorrow. i think it is important we show canadians and show the world and show the good guys and the bad guys that this kind of action
will not be met by just us sort of somehow curling into a ball and changing our daily routine. that's an important message to canadians and those that want to disrupt our lives. >> one thing we in the united states have done consistently after such threatening experience is dramatically increase the physical security around government buildings, put up barriers, make it more difficult to get into those, have access to those buildings. do you expect ottawa to react in that way? >> well, i expect there will be some reaction. i don't know what the reaction will be. i'm sure over the next number of days those responsible for our security will review our security in minute detail. the $64 question that keeps getting asked is how could this have possibly happened?
if you knew the physical outlay and the physical structure and what this shooter had to get through in order to get to where he got, it does ask a lot of very fundamental questions. so, i expect that we will have a very, very thorough review. >> tony clement and john mckay, thank you for joining me tonight. >> thank you. coming up, the white house was already on high alert after the shooting in canada. and then tonight someone jumped over the white house fence again. that's next. and later, the st. louis county ground jury investigating the killing of michael brown is leaking more every day. we now have the official st. louis county autopsy report that's been leaked and speculation has been running wild in the media about what that report means. and another report from a single anonymous source in the st. louis post dispatch reads as if officer darren wilson's lawyer dictated his version of why he killed michael brown to that newspaper.
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they'll only show up when you print a label and it's automatic. we save time and money. time? money? time and money. awesome. awesome! awesome! awesome! awesome! (all) awesome! i love logistics. breaking news from the white house tonight. during canadian parliament's lockdown tonight, the white house had to be locked down for 90 minutes. a man once again jumped a fence on the white house north lawn this evening the man identified as 23-year-old dominic adesanya of bel air, maryland, allegedly scaled the lawn fence before a canine unit caught him. you can hear the secret service officers yelling at the man to get on the ground in this video. >> get on the ground! get on the ground!
get down now! [ inaudible ] >> move it! move it! >> the suspect kicked one dog before another dog stopped him. he was taken into custody by uniform secret service officers. this is the first breach over the white house fence since september 19th when omar gonzalez scaled the fence, ran across the north lawn, got all the way into the east room of the white house carrying a knife. joining me now, susan crabtree, white house correspondent for "white house examiner." here we go again. what's striking to me this time
is secret service apparently performed flawlessly. >> that's right. this was a triumphant moment for the secret service after security breaches that were very serious, led to julia pearson, that then-director's resignation october 1st. now we have a very triumphant moment for the secret service on a very tragic day for ottawa and canada, and one in which the president of the united states, president barack obama, expressed solitude with canada and just very heartfelt concerns about terrorism in this country as well. >> and, susan, this kind of thing happened routinely in the past. and this is exactly the way it was supposed to happen. they were only supposed to be able to get a couple of steps. and if the first dog doesn't stop you, the second dog will. and the second dog is going to be very mad about what you did to the first dog. but how far from the fence did he get? do we know how many steps he
managed to get across that lawn? >> i'm told 10 to 15 feet, which is phenomenal. >> that's about the standard. that's as far as you should be able to get before they completely close down on you. >> that's right. these two canine dogs, i believe they were leaving the white house. they had a -- two white vehicles left, and there were dogs barking in the back of the vehicle. and i believe those were the canine heroes of the night. they also said they were going to a vet because they were injured in the takedown, but yet the kol prit culprit, the alleged culprit in this occasion was also on his way to the to want. >> susan crabtree, thank you very much for joining us tonight. >> thank you for having me. coming up -- the most detailed account of what officer darren wilson told the grand jury in the investigation of the fatal shooting and was leaked to the press.
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they said they were ambushed and acted in self-defense, but the prosecution said they fired recklessly and out of control. the jury convicted nicholas slatten of murder, paul a.slough of 13 counts of manslaughter and 17 counts of attempted manslaughter. evan s. liberty of eight counts of manslaughter and 12 counts of attempted manslaughter. and dustin heard of six counts of manslaughter and 11 counts of attempted manslaughter. jurors also conflicted the three of using military firearms while committing a felony. nicholas slatten faces a mandatory sentence of life in prison, the other three faces a mandatory minimum sentence of 30 years in prison. the judge ordered the men incarcerated immediately. defense attorneys said they will appeal. up next, the official autopsy report on the police killing of michael brown has been leaked. does it show that officer darren wilson acted recklessly and out of control on that street in ferguson, missouri, the way the blackwater security guards did in baghdad? that's next.
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has been the primary recipient of the biggest leaks of the day, beginning with the official st. louis county autopsy of michael brown, which was posted on the newspaper's website late last night. and then followed today by an article that the "post-dispatch" calls, quote, the most detailed account of officer darren wilson's version of the august 9th event, which reads, as if dictated by officer wilson's criminal defense lawyers. the official autopsy appears to be consistent with the autopsy commissioned by michael brown's family, which was made public eight weeks ago. one minor difference is that the official autopsy, which was the first of the three autopsies conducted was able to determine that one of the bullets that hit michael brown was fired at close range. the "st. louis post-dispatch" submitted the autopsy report to two pathologists who are not involved in the case for their interpretations. the st. louis medical examiner, michael graham, who is not part of the official investigation told the newspaper that the official autopsy report, quote,
does support that there was a significant altercation at the car. that is, of course, something that every witness says they observed. that is not in dispute. dr. judy m he elinek, assistant clinical professor of pathology at the university of california-san francisco medical center told the "st. louis post-dispatch" that the official autopsy report, quote, supports the fact that this guy is reaching for the gun, if he has gunpowder particulate material in the wound she added, if he has his hand near the gun when it goes off, he's going for the officer's gun. that quote was picked up by "the washington post" today, which ran it under the headline, evidence supports officer's account of shooting in ferguson. the "st. louis post-dispatch" relied on dr. melinek to give three paragraphs of material, supporting officer wilson's version without actually quoting
her. melinek also said the autopsy did not support witness who was claimed brown was shot while running away from wilson or with his hands up. she said brown was facing wilson when brown took a shot to the forehead, two shots to the chest and a shot to the upper right arm. the wound to the top of brown's head would indicate he was falling forward or in a lunging position towards the shooter. the shot was instantly fatal. a sixth shot that hit the forearm and traveled from the back of the arm to the inner arm, which means brown's palms could not have been facing wilson as some witnesses have said, melinek said, that trajectory shows brown was probably not taking a standard surrender position with arms above the shoulder and palms out when he was hit, she said. but did she actually say that? joining me now is dr. judy melinek, forensic pathologist and author of "the new york times" best seller "working stiff." doctor, thank you very much for joining us tonight. i really appreciate it.
when i read your quotes in the "st. louis post-dispatch," i was really shocked to see how far your statements and suppositions went beyond the actual facts as presented in the actual autopsy. and then i read the written statement that you gave -- you also gave to the "st. louis post-dispatch," which i agree with completely, every word. not one word of which was used by the actual newspaper. i want to give you one example. in your written statement, you say, this is from your written statement, i'm quoting, you can't say with reasonable certainty that his hands were up based on the autopsy findings alone. >> that is correct. >> and of course you can't say with reasonable certainty his hands were down or his hands were up based on the autopsy findings. but in the "st. louis post-dispatch," they try to lean on you to say conclusively that he could not possibly have had his hands up. >> well, what happens sometimes is when you get interviewed and you have a long conversation with journalists, they're going
to take things out of context. and i made it very clear that we only have partial information here. we don't have the scene information. we don't have the police investigation. we don't have all the witness statements. and you can't interpret autopsy findings in a vacuum. you need to take them in context of the scene investigation. so even with that in mind, there are some findings that we have here in the autopsy report which match up to the officer's statement. so that we can say. but again, it's an incomplete picture. there may be other witnesses who saw something that are also consistent with these findings. we have to hear their statements. >> i got to tell you, as far as i can tell, the autopsy matches both the police account as we now know it and the eyewitness' account, as we know it. the part where there's a big gap is the part where they're out of the car. and that's the situation where the autopsy becomes less helpful
in terms of what was going on at that point. let me give you another example from the "st. louis post-dispatch" article. it quotes you saying that michael brown is reaching for the gun. now, just because his hands have blood on them. now, my hand can be very close to a gun that you fire without me necessarily reaching for the gun. i could be asleep and you can fire a gun near my unmoving hand and it doesn't mean i was reaching for a gun. what is beyond dispute on the basis of this evidence is that these two people were in very, very close contact with each other, but there is absolutely nothing that i see in that autopsy that indicates that michael brown was trying to touch that gun or grab that gun or take it away from that officer. >> so the issue at hand is primarily pertaining to a wound that's on the thumb. and if you look at the diagram that was in the second autopsy
and you then compare that to what's in the first autopsy, the injury on the right hand is actually going up the thumb. so it's going from the point of the thumb this way. which means that if is this the gun, the hand is pointing in the direction of the -- the thumb is going in the direction in order for that to line up, okay? so that would be consistent with the officer's statement that brown was reaching for the gun. now that said, as you pointed out -- >> yeah, i agree -- >> -- you can have the hand passively there in the same location -- >> it is consistent. i think what's getting mistaken, it's consistent with that possibility. it is also with other possibilities. and what happens to the media, the press is, they take you saying it's consistent with that possibility as proof that that's exactly what michael brown was doing with his hands. there were a total of 12 bullets
fired. six of them we know about, six of them hitting his body. but there's absolutely nothing that the autopsy can possibly tell us about the bullets that missed michael brown, isn't that right? >> that's why you need the additional scene information. the position of the officer the the distance of the officer from mr. brown. are there any strike marks on surrounding vehicles or buildings or the ground? that's the information that's missing. that's why i said you can't interpret this in a vacuum. you have to look at the statements and look at the injuries on the body and see whether they match up or not. and one thing we can say is when you've got an injury that's going up the thumb this way that corresponds with the gun being in line with it. it's not consistent with this kind of posture because if my hands are up like this, then to get that gunshot wound on the thumb, the officer has to be above me in the ceiling, okay? that doesn't match. so -- >> now, doctor -- >> -- can you match the injuries -- >> doctor, if you keep your hands up like that. >> sure. >> and if i fire four bullets at
you and i miss you with those four bullets, there will be no evidence in an autopsy report that i fired bullets at you while your hand were up, will it? >> no, there won't. you're absolutely right. you need to look at the other ancillary data. how many casings are there, how many strike marks are there, where are they located. you can't tell that from what missed his body. >> also the issue of michael brown running away from officer wilson. we know that michael brown ran away from officer wilson. all the witnesses say that he did. and the autopsy report that you read said he did because it contains a little description of the police version of what happened. and in the police version of what happened, michael brown runs away from him. and it is entirely possible that some of the bullets that officer wilson fired at him, that missed him, were fired at him from behind while he was running away, isn't that possible?
>> are you -- there's no strike marks on his back. >> i said bullets that missed him. you've got to concentrate on him. this is really important. because half of the bullets missed him, okay? >> that's correct. >> so, eyewitnesss -- eyewitnesss who say when he was running away, officer wilson shot him. what they don't -- what an eyewitness doesn't know, and you know an eyewitness doesn't know this because you're a medical examiner, when eyewitnesss see fires shotted, they don't know which bullets hit a person and which bullets miss a person. so, these eyewitnesss may very well have seen this officer shooting him from behind with his back to him while he was running away. and what the evidence shows is that all of those bullets if fired that way missed michael brown. >> again, the evidence is just what's on the body, for me, but i don't have the scene information and i don't have all the witness statements. but you're right, if he missed while michael brown's running
away, then that officer is not going to be on the body. it's going to be at the scene. >> and the -- officer wilson claims that -- i think when you get into the part that is -- that is the most difficult to determine exactly what happened is when you're inside the car because there you have testimony that says -- there's one witness who says he grabbed him and tried to pull him inside the car. but without any doubt, there was some kind of concentration of the car and there was a decision to shoot in the car. that's a completely separate decision. and a totally different threat level to what occurs once the officer is outside of the car. because once the officer is outside of the car, there's a great distance between them as we've seen from photographs of the scene where michael brown's body was found at a very significant distance from the police officer's car. and so the decisions to fire the shots that killed him, all of those decisions were made
outside of the car, when michael brown was at a significant distance from him, including that final shot that goes into the top of his head, which may be the final shot, which killed him. do you have any indication from this autopsy report how far away the officer was when he shot and killed michael brown? >> you can't comment based on the autopsy report as to the distance. they're distance range wounds, which means they're outside of 24, 30 inches. and then thinking more than that, you can't tell the difference between a wound naets five feet away from a wound that's 20 feet away. >> but it's a big deal in this case because if he's 35 feet away and the officer claims, you know, he started to come at me with six bullets -- five bullets already in him, he started to come at me, what we know is there wasn't a threat there, there wasn't a reason to then fire a shot to kill him in the top of the head. and just a final point, doctor. michael brown is 6'4" tall. he's very tall. for him to get shot in the top of the head, up at the top of
the hairline, how far down would he have to be bent over in order to be shot in the top of the head? and have that bullet trajectory, which is very important, doctor, as you know. the bullet trajectory when it enters his head goes straight down in his head. so, how far would he have to be bent over to be shot in the head that way? >> i can't answer that question without knowing the height of the weapon. so, in order to do a trajectory analysis, you need to know at what height the officer was holding his weapon and then do the triangulation that way. >> we have varying information as to his height, but he was not 6'4" like michael brown. let's call him 6 feet, which means his weapon is a foot below that, at least, at shoulder level. let's call it five feet off the ground how does five feet off the ground gun held with two hands this way, how does it get a straight down trajectory in the skull of someone who's 6'4", how far over would that 6'4" person
have to bend? >> they would have to just basically bend their neck forward and lean a little bit. it's not a tremendous amount. it also depends on the angle that the gun is being held at. if it's held somewhat upwards versus down wards, that could affect things. >> no, doctor -- >> you can't really answer those questions. >> i think you have to be careful there. i don't want to tell you, doctor, you're wrong, but if that gun were to be held, aimed up, then you would not find the trajectory going straight down through the skull. remember, doctor, the trajectory inside the skull tells us the angle of that bullet's travel better than any other information we have. better than what anyone says the way they were holding a gun. >> it tells us, but it's a relative direction. remember, the skull is movable and the head is moveable. and for every angle adjustment made by the officer, you have to have a corresponding angle adjustment by the victim in
order to get the right trajectory. so to do the analysis that you're requesting, it needs to be done with those measurements in mind. and i can't just come up with an answer off the top of my head because that would be unprofessional. >> i agree with you. >> i need to be able to analyze it with the data. >> right. >> and that's what's important in this case. have you to have the data. we don't have the data from the scene right now. >> right. >> we have just a snippet, which is the autopsy report. and to come to conclusions such as how quickly those bullets went in, how fast they were fired, even what the distance is, we don't have that data right now. >> right. and, i mean, wouldn't you say that running headlines saying that the autopsy report, based on all the inadequacies that you just outlined in the autopsy report and all of the mysteries that it leaves sitting there, that running headlines saying the autopsy report suspects the officer's account is extremely misleading? >> well, it supports the officer's account of what happened inside the vehicle.
with regards to the hand being lined up with the gun. it's not that that -- that gunshot -- >> not to belabor it, doctor. we just established it doesn't. >> okay. >> we just established it doesn't. that's the part that it doesn't establish. quickly before you go, "the washington post" using your quotes today, without talking to you, they just used your quotes from the other paper? >> necessity, they did. >> they said the amount of marijuana found in michael brown was enough to produce hallucinations. do you agree with that? >> i think the amount of marijuana is highly individual. it depends on his tolerance level and what his exposure/history was. so it could in some people cause hallucinations. it could in some people alter their perception or judgment or reaction time. but we need to know a little more about his usage history in order to interpret that. >> okay. dr. judy melinek, the author of the book "working stiff," thank you very much for joining us tonight, doctor. really appreciate it.
coming up -- sean parcels who assisted in the autopsy by dr. bowden. and break news from the department of justice. the department of justice has just reacted to leaks in the grand jury case. ntix. i had tried to do it in the past. i hadn't been successful. quitting smoking this time was different because i talked to my doctor and i... i got a prescription for chantix. along with support, chantix (varenicline) is proven to help people quit smoking. it was important to me that chantix was a non-nicotine pill. the fact that it reduced the urge to smoke helped me get that confidence that i could do it. some people had changes in behavior, thinking or mood, hostility, agitation, depressed mood and suicidal thoughts or actions while taking or after stopping chantix. if you notice any of these, stop chantix and call your doctor right away. tell your doctor about any history of mental health problems, which could get worse while taking chantix. don't take chantix if you've had a serious allergic or skin reaction to it. if you develop these, stop chantix and see your doctor right away as some can be life-threatening. tell your doctor if you have a history of heart
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because only national lets you choose any car in the aisle... and go. and only national is ranked highest in car rental customer satisfaction by j.d. power. (aaron) purrrfect. (vo) meee-ow, business pro. meee-ow. go national. go like a pro. "st. louis post-dispatch" reporter robert patrick posted an article on the "st. louis post-dispatch" website with the headline "source: darren wilson says michael brown kept charging at him. he identifies the source as a source with knowledge of statements, of course, statements of officer darren wilson. there are only two possible sources for this statement, one
is a prosecutor involved in presenting evidence to the grand jury. that prosecutor would be aware of all of officer wilson's statements, including any statements he might have made outside of the grand jury room as a witness. the other possible source that would have knowledge is darren wilson's criminal defense lawyer. a spokesman for the district attorney's office told "the washington post," our office is not responsible for these leaks. darren wilson's lawyer, james p.touy jr. did not return "the washington post's" call seeking a comment. and very tellingly, if you know the conventions of modern journalism and unnamed sources, there is absolutely no reference to darren wilson's lawyer or the fact that he even has a lawyer in the "st. louis post-dispatch" article. that's how much unnamed sources are protected in leak-based articles like this. it is hard to imagine a more irresponsible entry into the journalistic record in the
michael brown case than an entire article attribute uted to only one unnamed source who is actually the lawyer for the police officer who shot and killed michael brown. now, i think there would be nothing wrong with the st. louis post dispatch pointing the very same article and using darren wilson's lawyer as the source if it's simply identified the lawyer as the source. or at least identified that the source is a supporter of darren wilson. if, in fact, the source is a supporter of darren wilson. which, of course, i don't know. right? i mean, i'm just kind of wondering about it. the unnamed source tells the story of the confrontation at the car in much greater detail than any previous account. the article says, during the struggle, brown handed the cigarillos to johnson then swung his left hand and hit wilson on the right side of the face. wilson said he almost lost consciousness. the source said. there is much detail about the struggle officer wilson had in firing his gun. and then the article says, wilson told investigators he thought the bullet had struck
brown in the hand, the source said. broken window glass was everywhere and blood was on the door. the gun and wilson's hands. at the time, wilson said he wasn't sure whose blood it was. the struggle continued and wilson attempted to pull the trigger twice more. wilson thought brown's hands may have interfered again. wilson was able to fire a second shot and brown ran. the article says that wilson got out of the suv and chased michael brown. then wilson told investigators brown began running toward him. wilson said he had yelled for brown to stop, then fired. the source said brown flinched as if he was hit and wilson said, he had stopped shooting. brown continued running toward him. and wilson said he had fired several more shots. the source said wilson recalled that brown's head was down when the last shot hit him there. and finally, wilson drove himself to the police station and was taken to the hospital by other officers. wilson said he had bruises on the left and right side of his face and scratches on his neck,
the source said. he had no broken bones. and breaking news tonight, the l.a. "times" reports the department of justice has condemned the leaks in ferguson as, quote, irresponsible and highly troubling and said there seems to be an inappropriate effort to influence public opinion about this case. joaning me now is msnbc law enforcement analyst jim cavanaugh and medical investigator shawn parcels who assisted in the private autopsy for the family of michael brown. first to you, shawn parcells, what's your reaction to the release of the official autopsy report? >> my initial reaction when i read through it today is that it matched up with the findings that dr. badden and i saw at the second autopsy. we also knew going into that autopsy that there was a struggle in the car and that the gun went off at least once or twice. we weren't sure. well, now that's been confirmed to go off twice.
as we had said, to us all the gunshot wounds appeared to be from a distance, but we needed more information to confirm that, such as seeing the clothing, the first autopsy report, the photos, x-rays, those sort of things, before we could really make any conclusions as to whether or not all of them came from a distance or if some happened at a close range. well, now we know that the gunshot graze wound to the hand right here happened at a close range in the car. >> and, shawn, is there anything about that wound that tells you exactly what michael brown was trying to do with that hand when it was shot? >> no, absolutely nothing. and i was listening to you and dr. melinek -- milner -- apologize about that, and i've also read other articles today that people were making the assumption that says beyond the
shadow of a doubt that he was reaching for officer wilson's gun. he could have been reaching for the gun, but at the same time, the gun could have been pointed up towards michael brown and it simply goes off and he puts his hands in that direction where the bullet's coming. doesn't necessarily mean that he was reaching for the gun. it just means that his hand was in close proximity to that weapon at that trajectory to get the bullet to go the direction it was going. >> and jim cavanaugh, with the release of the autopsy report now, with the spin put on it by the "st. louis post-dispatch," which was very clearly deliberately a spin that was intendsed to favor officer wilson, then the "st. louis post-dispatch" follows that up with an article spun very much to favor officer wilson, washington post picks that up and says, hey, the evidence supports the officer's case. the inability of the media to actually process what this evidence means as it is revealed and shown to us is just on con
stand display here. >> well, one thing is the autopsy -- like the doctor said, lawrence, you know, has to be coupled with the witnesses. and when you put the autopsy with the witnesses we've seen on "the last word" and across the immediate, yeah you get a much clearer picture on what happened. the fact today that the first shot in the car, i mean, that tells us the first shot. we know from three or more eyewitnesses that when michael brown ran away, he shuddered and stopped. three eyewitnesss said that. and doctor has told us in his autopsy that the only wound -- two wounds that could have been were the graze wounds, the thumb or under the arm. so now we know it's under the arm. when we couple that information with the eyewitnesses, the shot that shuddered michael brown was under the arm. then michael brown stops. multiple eyewitnesses tell us that. we know he stops, that's going to be the distance of the last blood on the street forensically can be looked at.
and he turns. and there's two shots i the forearm and in the shoulder. and both have a slight upward trajectory. now, michael brown's 6'4", so if he's shot in the forearm -- now, the forearm's moveable and the doctor can explain that more. there's probably some other positions that can be shot, but in the upper shoulder, if the trajectory is going up, you have to be standing upright. so, he's -- he's standing upright when he's shot here. and then the critical point, i think, is michael brady. michael brady says when he saw him, he was in a ball. so, was he charging before he went into the ball, or was he charging after he went into the ball? so, i think rather he was staggering and stumbling because the two shots in the chest and the shot over the eye and in the head were all downward trajectory. >> yeah, there's absolutely no witnesses to the notion of charging officer wilson in this thing yet. i'm sorry, we have run out of time. i used too much time on the
earlier segment about the autopsy. sorry, guys. jim cavanaugh, shawn parcells, thank you for joining us. i really appreciate it. we'll be right back turn the trips you have to take, into one you'll never forget. earn triple points when you book with the expedia app. expedia plus rewards. i take prilosec otc each morning for my frequent heartburn. because it gives me... zero heartburn! prilosec otc. the number 1 doctor-recommended frequent heartburn medicine
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good evening. i'm chris matthews. in washington today terrorism struck to the north in ottawa, the capital of canada, a gunman shot and killed a soldier standing guard at the country's war memorial. he then entered the nearby parliament building and open fire. here's what it looked and sounded like. [ gunfire ] >> the country's prime minister, stephen harper, was in that building, near where the shots were fired. he was quickly whisked to safety. lawmakers, meanwhile,