tv NOW With Alex Wagner MSNBC December 18, 2014 1:00pm-2:01pm PST
>> hello, north korea! sony pulling the release of "the interview" will have ripple effects. they have named north korea as inciti greaters. >> the leader being investigated by the fbi and department of justice. >> they were acting on orders from the north koreans. >> these hackers were able to bring a major global corporation to its knees. >> do we want north koreans dictating what americans see and what americans don't see? how will the american government retaliate or will it? protecting my consumers and protecting my business franchise. to think that the most backwards country in the world can affect the country that stands for freedom. is it something that we think is serious and credible, we will alert the public and for now my recommendation would be for people to go to the movies. >> the u.s. government is weighing its response today
after senior officials concluded that north korea was centrally involved in the hacking of sony pictures. the hack and threats against the theaters prompted the studio's stunning decision late yesterday to cancel the planned christmas day release of the movie "the interview." the move spurred outrage from hollywood to washington as it flooded twitter. >> from. >> to newt gingrich, no one should kid themselves. with the sony collapse, america has lost its first cyber war. this is a very, very dangerous cyber war. car elle in particular finds himself part of the fallout from the hack attack. yesterday new regency films scrapped production of pyongyang in which carell to be playing as an american living in north coia. it's treating the hack as a serious, national security
threat. >>. >> this is something that's being treated as a serious national security matter. there is evidence to indicate that we have seen destructive activity with malicious intent that was initiated by a sophisticated actor. as the members of the national security team meet to discuss this matter, they are considering a range of options. >> beyond what those options might be, many other questions remain. questions about who exactly was involved, who might have helped and how on earth an isolated country, a country where the internet does not officially exist. how did north korea wage what could be the most damaging cyber attack in history. joining me now is director of the borne identity and live, die, repeat. >> jamie metsel and senior editor with ricoed. >> jamie, let me first start with you. i don't usually paraphrase newt gingrich in earnest, but are we, as newt says, is this our first
cyber war and are we losing it? >> certainly, this is a cyber attack and certainly, we have lost. they decimated sony. sony's stock is down 10% and sony has done exactly what the hackers, presumably the north cor are koreans wanted them to do. the value of the company has decreased so, yes, it's very, very serious and if they can do this to sony, really, most companies and around the united states and around the world are vulnerable in one way or another and that means that our economy is vulnerable. >> and it's a freedom of speech concern, too, right, doug? if controversial art to say nothing whether it's movies or whatever it is could be shut down because of vague threats what does that portend for the future? how did you greet the decision? >> as an artist it's terrifying especially a movie like fair game, that was a political film that did attack a political leader and saying can i say that
north korea is a brutally repressive regime or am i suddenly opening myself up to attack? i recently met shin dong hyuk which was born in a north korean prison and lived there in the first 23 years of his life and escaped as the first person that escaped to the west is certainly someone we should be talking about, am i scared to mention him. >> the chilling effect is profound. >> it's a situation where sony, they have to release this move. >> and also it's going to get released regardless -- >> on the internet, you cannot -- otherwise, you know, north korea stays in power. the government stays in power because they're brutally repressive. are we going to allow them to repress me on the show and make me scared to talk about somebody like shin dong kyuk? they imprisoned a baby. that's crazy. >> that's the least of it and i
am scared to now mention that on the show because they're crazy for doing that. >> the fact that the americans feel that the reach of the north korean is that broad. i want to don in terms of how this happened. i think a lot of folks don't understand what goes on in north korea and cyber attacks and cyber farms or schools and training for young north koreans to learn the art of cyber warfare is something that happens inside north korea. can you tell us about the role that country plays in the new form of -- i'm not going to call it terrorism, or i should call it warfare. >> most think of north korea as where most of the citizens don't have access to the computer, let alone the internet and we think of it as this place that is technologically deprived, but it turns out that the north korean government looks at cyber warfare as an efficient use of resources and very often it goes
and identifies people who seem to have potential encoding and with coding and sends them to school either in china or russia to get some training and once they're adept at their skills they can be used in attacks like this where north korea is able to get attention of the world to bring them to their knees. >> the chinese are watching this and. >> maybe they're helping. we don't know and the ripple effect this has in asia with enemies of the united states in terms of freedom of speech and democracy. it is not a got litmus test to how we respond to as yet, sort of vague threats and setting the hacking aside. >> it's terrible for us because let's just say, the government is saying north korea can this or connected to those who did it or any kind of expression that someone is upset, all you have
to do is anonymously issue in kind of statement saying this is going to be worse than 9/11 or dot, dot, dot and lots of individuals that can do this and whatever the quote, unquote, offending artistic content is, people are going to back off. so it's a terrible precedent and certainly north korea doesn't have so much to lose because next week the entirety of the human rights allegations against north korea are coming to the u.n. security council. so this is nothing compared to that and it makes us very, very vulnerable and it turns our openness against us. >> yeah. doug, there's also the sort of hollywood analysis of why sony is doing this and specifically, it's not something that a lot of folks necessarily understand and there is a question of protecting the public and the question of liability, right? after the aurora colorado theater shooting in the wake of the release of the batman film
cinemark said that the incident was unforeseeable. there is no defense that sony would have had because there's been so much buildup to to the release of this film. from your experience in hollywood is it a 50/50 decision and half liability and where do you think -- >> i think those are both big factors and there's also the third factor that there are a lot of other important films coming out christmas day. there's "selma," angelina jolie's movie and if this event was going to keep people from going to any move owe christmas day sony also was thinking about its partners in the business and the other studios and thinking that to protect those other movies it had to sort of withdraw. >> to make sure that audiences went to theaters. >> went to the other movies, at least. that's a fascinating calculation. >> don, in terms of retaliation, right? it's not the first volley and there is a return and when you hear from the white house that
they're considering all options and treat this as a national security issue, what could feesably be expected in terms of our development and cyber warfare and cyber attacks, where are we? >> it's a fascinating question and the white house right now is evaluating its own response. they're weighing how much to say publicly because even as the white house press secretary said today in his briefings, they're looking for attention and it's a validation or a trophy in this attack and the white house is still trying to figure out what is a proportional response and that was the language the white house was using today. >> jamie, you just came back from north korea and you know, from what i've heard inside the country kim jong-il and kim jong-un are big fans of western culture and let us not forget dennis rodman the defacto ambassador. this would seem to be a feather in his cap that he has gotten a
major, major movie studio to effectively bow down to threats of what we think are his regime. >> sure. it's definitely a case archtypical case of symmetric warfare and whatever we want to call it and this is a huge deal. from the north korean perspective, this malignment of their leader and when i was in north korea, it's not just that these are leaders, the kim family are leaders that are praised. they are gods. they are everywhere. everybody has the pins and you have to have the pins with their likeness on it. so from a north korean perspective, this is blasphemy and these guys are doing a lot to try to undermine that, but the second thing is that global attention on north korea is now coalescing on this u.n. report that was released earlier in february. >> bad timing for them. >> in some ways that is the real story because yes, this is a big deal and yes, it harms sony and yes, it shows our vulnerabilities in terms of what
north korea is doing this reported outline is up to 120,000 people in prison camps, doug talked about shin dong kyuk and other people whose lives are very precarious and executions and all sorts of terrible deprivations and while this as awful as this is and we need to defend ourselves and need to hold north korea accountable the big picture story is what's moving next week into the security council. >> and can i now go make a movie about those allegations? have they effectively imposed their brutal repression on us? >> the fact that a movie pyongyang is not getting made -- those are not good tidings. because of the internet it's a global community now and there aren't borders the way there use to beed because in some ways it's good because you can hire someone on the other side of the planet and the scary thing is that brutal repression is how they stay in power in north korea, they somehow are able to reach across the ocean and impose it on me here in new
york. >> and the more connectivity is, the more they understand the system and the more you can recognize that you can make threats like this and movie theaters and others have to think about their own liability whatever their views are about artistic expression. >> as a model to bringing down a system through very little work, it appears and it seems to be very effective. >> huge return on investment. >> always good to see you. dawn, thank you for your time. that's all we have for this segment. coming up, a major development this afternoon in the war against isis. senior defense officials tell nbc that u.s. airstrikes have killed three key isis leaders in the past six weeks. they are described as mid to high-level leaders including its top military commander. general martin dempsey today told the wall street journal that these operations are part of an expanding coalition effort against isis ahead of a planned offensive next year. coming up, good idea, bad idea. republicans are walking a fine line on normalized relations with cuba.
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>> we have some breaking news to report. the department of homeland security released information detailing lapses by the u.s. secret service. a panel of outside experts found the agency has become too insular and recommended a new leader from outside its ranks. it suggested a simple solution to recent incursions on the white house grounds. raiseded a 7 1/2 foot fence around the compound. the review was commissioned after a september incident in which a fence jumper managed to jump into the white house itself before being apprehended. in an interview today with our own andrea mitchell, jay johnson acknowledged fundamental systemic issues with the president's protective detail.
>> there are more fundamental, systemic issues with the secret service they think need to be addressed and that cannot be addressed overnight. >> is the president -- is the president's family, are they safe? >> i believe they're safe, yes. absolutely. >> coming up, rand paul thinks president obama's new relationship with the castros sounds pretty good. marco rubio says it's terrible. how the gop is trying to get it together. that is next on "now."
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hasn't worked. if the goal was regime change it sure doesn't seem to be working and probably it punishes the people more than the regime because the regime can blame the embargo for hardship. in the end, i think probably opening up cuba is a good idea. >> probably a good idea is also probably the most understated response to the most significant development in cuban-american relations in over half a century. senator paul's tentative response could not stand in starker contrast to that of his colleague, senator marco rubio. earlier he held a press conference, his second in two days to specifically blast the president's decision. >> this deal the president has come up with is a terrible tradeoff. in exchange for diplomatic recognition, more cooperation on telecommunications, more banking, more commerce, in the words of raul castro, cuba has agreed to nothing. this is the kind of deal you get when you spend your speechwriter
to negotiate with a tyrant. >> it was the latest in the marco rubio media tour deforce. this morning he took to the pages of wall street journal to publicly accuse the president of the united states of lying. the entire policy shift is based on the illusion and in fact, on the lie that more commerce and access to money and goods will translate to political freedom for the cuban people, but if marco cubeio thought he cornered the market on kepticel hard right cuban-americans he was mistaken. >> this is another tragic mistake. it is the latest manifestation of the fail urs of the obama-clinton-kerry foreign policy. >> the obama-clinton-kerry foreign policy is a strange phrase. it's like the clinton-christopher- clinton-christopher-albright on
kosovo. perhaps he has other reasons for invoking hillary clinton. joining me now is washington post columnist at the brookings institution, e.j. dion and ernesto londono. e.j., let me start with you. in terms of rand paul saying it's probably -- probably a good idea, is that what he said? probably a good idea? probably opening up cuba is a good idea. >> how fraktious is it going to be? >> the ernesto show and ted cruz. he's happy to be here. i think what you're seeing here is a further indication of the split in the republican party between a more libertarian conservative wing represented by rand paul. on foreign policy he really is very different from the rest of the party, from ted cruz, from marco rubio and also from jeb
bush and liberals and libertarians have been on the same side of embargoes in general and particularly the cuban embargo. politically, the very conservative folks make one important point that doesn't actually harm the case for doing this. their joint are point is cuba is still repressive. it is still repressive. the argument and rand paul made it pretty well is that we are more likely to undercut a repressive regime in the long run by sending american citizens there, diplomats there, businesses there, and then to continue a policy that's failed for 50 years. that is going to be the argument here, but i think the problem with the antiposition is that is a position of the older part of the cuban community. there is a real generational split here between onlieder and younger cubans who are born here who are more pragmatic and willing to take a chance and it once again, rand paul is showing
he wants to be on the younger side of things if he runs for president. >> well, ernesto, you know, the anti -- the anti-camp has united unlikely bedfellows as well. i think there are human rights hard liners who would prefer we didn't engage with the cast ross at all and they're now on the same side as hard core conservatives who want, again, no correspondence, no communication and a freezeout when it comes to the castros and that is nowhere more evident than the response from the washington post editorial page. the washington post not being known as ted cruz's or marco rubio's paper of choice, they write on wednesday that castros suddenly attained a comprehensive bailout. mr. obama may claim he's dismantled the 50-year-old failed policy, what he's done is a 50-year-old failed regime a new lease on life. hugely critical of this move. i know the new york times, your
editorial board supported it, were you surprised by your colleagues at the post? >> no. i'm not surprised. i mean, we've been hearing this criticism from people who see any sort of an overture in any sort of a step toward normalizing relationships as a recognition of the castro government as an appeasement, as an award for them and you can certainly take that view and i understand why they take it. you can alternatively see this as a set of policies that are designed to empower ordinary people in cuba to take greater control of their lives. i think that's what we have been arguing for at the new york times editorial board, and i think it's what the architecture of what the obama administration laid out yesterday will likely accomplish. it will be fascinating to see this unfold over the next year once these policies start getting traction and i think if we do see signs that these policies are encouraging and empowering ordinary cubans to have greater control over their lives or their destiny over
their relationship with their leaders, i think it will be come increasingly hard to maintain hard line positions on cuban policy. >> in terms of convincing folks. i thought this was interesting in that the negotiations were hosted by pope francis, and i wonder what effect do you think that has in terms of not just convincing, getting the sort of signoff of cubans in cuba, but cuban-americans. pope francis is not from cuba, but he's a latin american pope. he has great sway as a catholic, as the pope among latin americans. how does that factor into all of this? >> you know, the catholic church invented the word impromateur. a lot of the older cuban community in florida and the exiled community has had difference wes the vatican going back to john paul ii's time.
i happened to be in rome the day they announced john paul ii's visit to cuba and i was visiting with someone in the vatican who told me that, look, our position is that we are for a gradual, peaceful transition in cuba and that the american-cuban community is uneasy about that because they are worried that some of the old regime types will hang around or the possibility of a complete transformation quickly more to their liking, that that won't happen if it's gradual. so there has been this difference between the exiled community and the vatican and marco rubio was in the odd position for a conservative republican of essentially taking on the pope, but i think once you get outside that part of the cuban community, there are an awful lot of other people who say it can't be too pro-communist if the vatican is for this policy. >> exactly. >> ernesto, more of the
republican reality, they've been on ice, since they basically died in the house of representatives. >> he has been at the forefront of the dissent on this decision. i actually thought ted cruz who we know to be bombastic had a fairly unbombastic reaction which was to frame it in the context of obama-clinton-kerry and that broader administrative fail our foreign policy which to me was a signal that maybe ted cruz and his brethren will not be as out front on all of this especially when you look at the polling. 62% of latinos favor an increase in u.s.-cuban relations. how do you view his reaction? >> if you look at this from a u.s. electorate perspective. republicans have to be very careful about how they navigate this. once upon a time it was very safe to be very pro-embargo and have a very hard line and rail against the castro brothers, particularly if you wanted to win florida. that is no longer a safe bet.
i think voters are looking for more nuance perspective and a more informed perspective and a perspective that acknowledges and drives with the wishes of cubans and i was recently in cuba and i got to speak to many cubans who opposed the government and were critical of the government and nonetheless really want the embargo to end. they see to that as something that is going to help them unlock their individual potential. >> e.j., before we go, marco rubio, is this the beginning of marco rubio 2.0? >> well, i think marco rubio 2.0 started when he started backing away from what he did. >> so 3.0? >> on immigration reform. this is marco rubio being a florida politician, as well as a national politician, but ernesto makes a really important point especially about florida because the fact is most of the latino vote in florida is now no longer cuban. and the cuban community is split.
so cuba policy, as it plays in florida is very different today than it was 20 years ago. >> a changing electorate and changing views. thank you guys both for your time. >> good to be with you. >> pleasure. just ahead, the true patriots of the cia. the whistle blowers who have been speaking up against torture all along. you will hear from them next on "now." i told my dentist about my sensitive teeth,
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our intelligence professionals are patriots and we are safer because of their heroic service and sacrifices. >> that was cia director john brennan one week ago following the release of the senate intelligence committee's long-delayed report on cia torture. although president obama said those actions were contrary to our values in a statement, the president also described cia
officers as patriots, but there are very real patriots who went without praise last week from the president and the cia director and those are the officers who said no to torture and blue the whistle on it and aufsh at a high price. the aclu releaseded a video profiling those who said no. >> i filed a report with the department of defense, a law of arm conflict violation report. >> it was my obligation to try to learn more about it and put it to a stop. >> i felt isolated in my fight to report the people who were conducting the torture and abuse. >> it was probably one of the most difficult decisions i made in my life because i love the fbi. i loved what i used to do. >> at that point i didn't know, you know, were they going to court-martial me and in fact, i was placed under house arrest. >> i said we're not going to use any evidence that was obtained by torture or any of the other enhanced techniques that any of you do, it went too far.
>> part of being a leader is standing up and trying to lead for your team, so i would like to think that's what i tried to do. >> doug is back with me now. he's one of the producers of that film. doug, you know, i am so glad this movie or this film is being made because we have spent an inordinate amount of time talking about what was done wrong and here are a group of people that did absolutely what seems to be the right thing. tell me a little bit more about your experience here making it. >> yeah. i mean -- it is, people did commit crimes. i think we can't forget that. torture is an actual, federal crime and punishable by 20 years in jail. if you actually kill somebody like we did, it's actually a capital crime punishable by death. so i think we should be holding the people who committed crimes accountable, but at the same time we can't let those people control the debate. they've been controlling it for way too long. they've been controlling the information and now finally we can hear from the other side, the people who didn't use the quote, unquote, climate of fear
after 9/11 as an excuse to torture people. they were people who in the same climate said no and at great personal risk, professional risk, they said no to their superiors and said no, this is wrong and there's a lot of them and those are the true heros and those are the people that we should be recognizing. >> i think maybe one of the reasons we haven't talked as much about their stories is by championing them and it is a searing indictment of those who said yes in torture and it's hard, i guess, for the agency to say these guys are heroes because these are the guys that said no -- >> torture is a crime. >> you shouldn't have an opinion about torture? it's an actual, federal crime. >> on that note, given how this report has come out and given events leading up to it and the redaction, delays and controversy, are you, as someone who is interested in this issue and working on a film about the issue, how satisfied are you in the way the white house has responded to it thus far?
>> i'm really not very satisfied at all. i mean, i feel like we shouldn't be praising brennan who -- who still, i feel is obfuscating the truth and saying well, it's unknowable. that's his word, whether torture worked. the thing about, you know, if you actually learned something you would know it. if you had the smallest shred of a fact showing it worked. >> they'd be using it. so all he can say is it's unknowable and then we know it's illegal. >> let me ask you because you've made movies about cia agents. >> when you read this report or you read the executive summary and some of the findings, how much did that strain credulity in your mind. were you surprised by some of the things that were in it, given the fact that you sort of worked on storylines that dance around the edges of that? >> because i'd been interviewing people who were on the front lines and the people who had been sayingy no for the past few years, those videos that you see on aclu.org/honor for honor and
courage, most of what's in the report we were already sort of living and breathing. still when you read the reports every time it just makes you cringe, the horror and especially we were talking before about when you see the effect it had on the cia officers who were the ones having to do these horrible acts. >> yeah. these horrible, pointless acts. >> there is something cinemat cinematically off. it's so visceral, the description of these techniques that, you know, it doesn't -- it's something that almost sounds like it's a fantasy from hollywood, and i wonder, you know, the role film has in creating narratives, katherine big low and her film "zero dark thirty" was a very potent weapon in making the case that torture led to certain things as an emissary from hollywood, what do you think about that fill nm retrospect?
>> i think when you're getting your information from the cia you have to be very careful, and i think in that case they were manipulated. the very person they were portraying, maya, is somebody who we now know lied directly to senate intelligence committee and was promoted for lying to the senate intelligence committee. owe you're always -- when you're getting the information from people who are actually trying to cover up a crime and this is a crime, this is a crime punishable by jail or worse you have to be very careful and in that case, they were manipulated into sort of furthering the cia's message. >> it is a dark -- it's a dark moment in american history that is ongoing. i will say, this offers a little bit of light in an otherwise pretty depressing storyline. producer and director doug liman. thank you for coming on the show. >> for more on the film visit aclu.org/honor. coming up, not something you see every day. environmental activists partying
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the best way to capture the moment is to feel it, even if you can't see it. coming up, andrew cuomo may have one, but he didn't want to be seen holding the trophy, josh lipton has the cnbc market wrap. hi, josh. >> hi, alex. here's a look at how stocks stand going into tomorrow. u.s. stocks rallied hard on thursday. investors cheering the federal reserve's pledge that it would be patient in increasing interest rates. the dow soaring 421 points. the s&p jumping 48 points. the nasdaq rose 104 points. that's it from cnbc, first in business worldwide. ♪ earlyfit ♪ latefit ♪ risefit ♪ fallfit ♪ ballfit ♪ wallfit ♪ pingfit ♪ pongfit ♪ pingfit ♪ pongfit ♪ rowfit ♪ throwfit
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an emotional dialogue. more emotion charged than marriage equality, more emotion charged than the gun issue. more emotion charged than the death penalty. >> governor andrew cuomo's decision to ban fracing yesterday was a massive and frankly, unexpected win for environmentalists and new york became the second state to prohibit the process and the first state of consequence to do so and that's because the empire state sits on 12 million acres of the marcellus shale rock formation which has an estimated 181 trillion cubic feet of natural gas and is the largest natural gas reserve in the united states, and far from seizing the spotlight on his decision, governor cuomo chose to stay as far away as possible. his line, you might have heard it before. i'm not a scientist. >> is it a great job generator or is it a danger to public
health or the environment? and my answer has been i don't know. i'm a lawyer. i'm not a doctor. i'm not an environmentalist. i'm not a scientist. i will be bound by what the experts say because i am not in a position to second-guess them with my expertise. >> joining me now is political reporter at "the new york times," and executive director of bold nebraska, jane kleb. >> andrew cuomo's exports and the new york public health commissioner said until the public red flags are answered by valid evidence i can't support high-volume hydraulic fracturing, also known as fracing. what is he doing to distance himself from as far away as possible. >> it's a way to have insulation from the blowback community and
distance himself from here on. if there's pushback from people who want those jobs. he can say it wasn't up to me. you know, i think that's a little cheesy, frankly. because, look, they spent three years trying to decide this. they stretch it out until after his election on purpose. of course, the administration was involved and of course, they were involved and it doesn't pass the laugh test and somehow he doesn't want to take credit for taking a firm stand here and it's kind of strange. >> what's interesting about this decision is usually the burden of proof is on environmentalists to prove that something is bad. here, it's not, the science -- the strategy is not the science has spoken, but until the science has spoken definitively we are not moving forward because the public health risk could be too great. what do you think of that? >> the majority of science says fracking is dangerous for water contamination and i always say rely on the people who are actually on the ground and who tend to the land every day which
is a lot of farmers and ranchers and they have cited from the beginning that they see their cows either dying or having serious health risks and so from my perspective, the science is in and i think voters are ready for politicians to start taking climate change seriously and the fact of the mraert is, whether you're talking about fracing and whether you're talking about tar sands we have to keep the majority of the reserves in the ground in order to tackle the serious health and energy crisis that our country's facing and start addressing climate change. and so the governor is making a serious mistake and i think he has another person who is sears in politics, hillary clinton breathing down his neck in new york and he should be taking a stronger stance because he's taken a weak stance on fracing. >> jane brings up a good point. there is also the chance that cuomo will be credited with his decision regardless of where he wants to be. >> robert f. kennedy, jr., cuomo's ex-brother-in-law is the high-level politician who is
willing to stand up to the carbon energy industry. now i bet you that andrew cuomo kind of didn't actually like that sash, that tiara bestowed upon him. >> it was a no-win situation for him. there are only two or three things you can do to create jobs in upstate new york in some of these places. he is just xed off and one of those things who said we can't do it so it was a risky thing for him to do and it was a hard choice and that's why he wants distance to it, he cares who the losers were going to be on both sides of this debate. >> jane, as far as the ripple effects of this, what do you potentially see here? i think maryland is the next state that needs to make a decision about fracing, do you think, cuomo's decision is likely to have a republican is going to be in his seat next year. what do you think happens next? >> i mean, i think the ripple
effect is that citizens have strong movements on the ground and there's no way the decision in new york would have happened without a strong, not only grassroots movement, but them linking arms with environmentalists and i think o'malley has made significant steps when it comes to energy environment in his state and he's a presidential hopeful in the 2016 election cycle and from my perspective with voters looking forward to climate change, you can't continue to take steps back. you can't continue to side with big oil and big gas. that's not an option for voters our age and younger. it's time whether you're cuomo, o'malley or governors in red states or blue states, start siding with people and start pushing back against big oil. >> fracing, to kwoemg owe's remark, is an incredibly emotional issue. he said it's more emotional than gun control, on same-sex marriage, on guns. i don't think a lot of democrats in, you know, metropolitan areas
understand how divisive and passionate this debate is. >> exactly. you know what? he can back away from his decision and he's drawn a line in the sand for every other higher office democrat, for candidates for president and for president obama, as well who has to make some choices on fracing. >> jane, to that point, on fracing, do you think fracing is a 2016 issue? >> i absolutely think not only is fracing a 2016 issue and so is climate change and clean energy. voters are tired of the same old same old that we need to go to the end of the earth to get as many fossil fuels into the earth. no. we can have cheap energy and jobs with a clean energy and it's time they start living in the 21st century. >> andrew cuomo reluctantly dipping one foot into it, definitely two feet and maybe a hand. never mind. i'll stop with the metaphor. >> thank you both for your time. coming up, pat robertson
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crave those crazy squares even more. televangelist is pat robertson is pat robertsonning himself once again. here's what he had to say yesterday. >> you know, those who are homosexual will die out because they don't reproduce, you know? you have to have heterosexual sex to reproduce. >> robertson as you remember previously suggested that hurricane katrina was god's punishment for america's abortion policy, and he explained that haiti's 2010 earthquake was because the country's founders had sworn a pact with the devil. his latest choice comments came after another robertson, "duck dynasty" star willie robertson said he is still wrestling on
whether being gay is a choice. >> do you think people choose to be gay. >> larry, i'm trying to figure that out. since the controversy and since i know all these people and the thought is i'm born this way. i don't know. i'm trying to figure out myself. >> if 2014 proved anything it is that views of both robertsons are likely to become relics of the recent past. 35 states embrace same-sex marriage and a number which the new yorker's jeffrey toobin predicts will rise to all 50 by 2015. 2015 starts in 14 days. that is all for now. "the ed show" is coming up next opinion ♪ ♪ good evening, americans and welcome to "the ed show" live from new york. follow the money. who gets it and who doesn't?
let's get to work. ♪ ♪ >> when the middle class thrives, then america thrives. >> we cannot only have a plan for wall street, we must also help main street. >> what is the price? >> this is about fairness. >> do you have such disdain for hardworking americans? >> the middle class is caught in the biggest squeeze ever. >> the economies are improving overall, but there is still this middle class squeeze going on. we cannot only have a plan for wall street. >> good to have you with us tonight, folks. thank for watching. it has been a theme in the country. the middle class, a big concern that the middle class is losing its purchasing power in america, that it's changing and that it's different. you can go back to the conversation of two americas and the democrats and the liberals,