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tv   All In With Chris Hayes  MSNBC  December 16, 2015 5:00pm-6:01pm PST

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nuclear. chris christie could have possibly never read a history book and does not care about the future safety of this country or the world we share with others. i hope the russian people know that the american people are sane enough to keep christie in trenton where the only damage he can do is local. that's "hardball" for now. thanks for request with us. "all in with chris hayes" starts right now. >> tonight on "all in" -- >> the family's not angry, no one else should be angry. >> a hung jury. a trial for first police officer in the death of freddy gray results in a mistrial. we'll go to baltimore for the latest. then about last night. >> about last night -- >> donald trump and jeb bush keep hammering. but will it change anything? >> he's not a serious candidate. he gets his news from the shows. >> plus will republican tough talk keep america safe?
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>> we're already in world war iii. >> you would carpet bomb where isis is, not the city. >> the patient is in critical condition and will not be cured by political correctness. >> political correctness is killing people. "all in" starts now. >> good evening. from new york i'm alex wagner in for chris hayes. we are following breaking news from baltimore, maryland where people took to the streets after a mistrial was declared in the first of six prosecutions of the baltimore police officers charged in connection with the death of freddy gray. the jury failed to reach a verdict on all four charges faced by officer william porter. manslaughter, misconduct in office, second degree assault and reckless endangerment. porter pleaded not guilty to all charges. the state argued porter showed indifference to gray's well being by failing to secure him in a seat belt in the back of a police van as required by department policy and for not
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calling for a medic when he asked for one. lawyers will be back in judges chambers tomorrow to discuss a new date for the trial. prosecutor rawlings said we cannot repeat what happened. >> we are better than what some displayed to the world in the spring. >> and kevin davis said the department would support peaceful protests. >> folks who choose to commit crimes and hurt people and break things and harm people are no lod longer protests. you lose your ability to call yours a protester when you
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choose to harm people and destroy property. >> freddie gray's stepfather said -- >> once again, we ask the public to remain calm, patient, because we are confident there will be another trial with a different jury. we are calm, you should be calm, too. >> authorities say at least two people have been arrested today in connection with the protests. we are looking at live pictures of the streets of baltimore right now where things appear to be relatively calm. joining me now is nbc news reporter ron allen. ron, what can you tell me about the police presence on the street? >> reporter: well, things are very calm, alex. there is a significant police presence. earlier today they were out in force but not interacting or confronting the protesters we saw gathered down the street here in front of city hall. they were keeping their distance.
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small groups were gathering. people were upset, anger. but there's a long way to go in this process. there are now going to be, we believe, six more trials because there's every indication officer porter will be retried. but of course things now get perhaps tougher for the prosecution because the next officer up is officer goodson, the driver of the car, who faces the most serious charges, the murder charges in this case. but this community is reaadread. you heard the mayor. the police chief is out, the department of justice is here investigating, the mayor said she's not going to run for a second term. opponents have some victories along the way here. but still, this is a very tough period ahead for the city of baltimore because each of these trials will produce a different result and people are riding this, it a drama, and people want to see these officers
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convicted of something, they want to see them convicted of the serious charges because there is little doubt in this community that they're guilty. they'll have their day in court. they'll be watching closely to see what happens and in justice prevails. >> ron allen, thanks for joining me. i want to bring in jason downs, co-counsel for the family of freddie gray. is the family's expectation that there's going to be a retrial here? >> there's every indication that there will be a retrial. the fact that there is a hearing tomorrow set for the purpose of setting a trial date is -- gives the family every indication that there will be a retrial in this case. >> were you surprised that this was a hung jury? >> well, it's clear, if you look at the statistics across the country, that hung juries occur. so the family was prepared for the possibility that there would be a hung jury. 6% of criminal trials across the
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country result in hung juries. so while it doesn't happen all the time, it's certainly a possibility so we were prepare for this possibility. >> based on the proceedings of the trial, was it your expectation at that this would be so difficult a decision that the jury was deadlocked effectively? >> every jury is different. i've seen juries come back with guilty verdicts, with not guilty verdicts in a matter of minutes, days, weeks. so every jury is different. it's always up to a particular jury. in this case we have every indication that the jury took its time, they looked through the evidence, they analyzed the testimony and the exhibits and were unable to reach a verdict. >> the prosecution indicated they wanted to use officer porter as a witness in officer goodson's trial further down the road. how do you think what happened
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today complicates that or doesn't? >> at this point officer porter doesn't -- he can't be compelled to testify in anyone's trial at this point. he does have a fifth. so at this point he can't be compelled to testify in the next trial. so the state can't force him to be a witness against any of the other officers at this point right now. it's up to him. it's up to the particular officer. >> my question would be what was your advice to the family, who i'm sure is looking for resolution. this is a marathon, given that there are going to be six trials and if you count the hung, seven. what was your advice to the family at this moment when the news came down the pike that this would be a hung jury, in this trial? >> you hit the nail on the head. this is a marathon, not a sprint. the fact that the motion to sever was groanted and that thee are six separate trials means this is a marathon and that this particular trial ends in a hung
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jury means we have taken one step and we have at least five more trials, most likely six more trials left. >> co-counsel for the family of freddie gray, jason downs, thanks for taking the time. >> thank you for having me. >> joining me now is msnbc's national correspondent joy reid. joy, i don't know if it was a letdown. it was a lack of resolution can be incredibly frustrating in a moment like this. were you surprised this is what happened here? >> in a sense no because a lot of the time these trials really do hang on jury selection. you had a lot of really interesting intersectional factors here. you had a jury of 12 people, eight of whom were african-american, two white, two white women, two men. it took place in the city of baltimore rather than the county. and if you look at sort of the jury science side of it, when you have african-american victim
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and african-american jurors or an african-american defendant and african-american jurors, it actually increases the possibility of a hung jury because you can have all of the factors that jurors have in their own experiences going in weighing on whether they trust the police or doesn't trust the police. if you look at the questions these jurors were asking to have read back to them, they were asking things that indicated the argument between whatever two camps, it could have been 1 versus 11, 2 versus 10, was whether or not officer porter did something deliberately or out of malice. they seemed to be focusing on whether there was malicious intent. that goes to whether you trust the police had positive motives. >> obviously race is a factor here but it's a factor at every level, from the city leadership to baltimore, to the defendant, and a jury that has many african-americans on it. i guess i wonder when you sort
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of read that scene and that racial breakdown, is there something to glean from that? >> it's really so complicated. first of all, william porter is from the same part of town that freddie gray is from, though they did not know each other. his defense was smart playing up his biography and might that have been sympathetic to some of the african-american jurors. have you not a white police officer and a black person who has been killed. you have both of them being african-americans. and, you know, there's the question of whether this officer was uniquely culpable in freddie gray's death when remember, there are two sets of defendants. there are the three white officers, the bike patrol officers who actually put a seemingly injured freddie gray into the car. is that where the injuries took place? then the three african-american officers who transported freddie gray? are they more culpable?
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because the two female officers saw him along the journey when they made stops. the videotape shows the bike reporters putting him in the van. >> and the judge is also african-american and has a history of dealing with police issues as they intersect with civil rights cases. he in various pieces of reporting i've read has been fairly hard line with the jury, giving them a very kind of specific and i think rigorous standard by which they should judge the officers' guilt on these charges but has declined to elaborate further when the jury asked for clarification on some of these. >> and asked for transcripts. the jury was asking define these specific terms in the charging documents and he sent back a note saying, no, they're in the charging documents, you just need to read them. the jury asked for the four-hour or so testimony from officer porter and they wanted to compare that with his initial statements that were made about
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five hours after freddie gray's death. there was questions about his specific credibility and frame of mind and he was asking them deliberate that among themselves. they declared to be at an impasse yesterday. >> and that was not broken. >> and then there's the question of how this affects the trials down the lines. it's a domino effect. >> you could argue the strongest case would be the case of the driver, that there is this notorious history of a rough driver, driving them around to somehow punish them. that is going to weigh on this case. that's why he's got the depraved attempted murder charge. if you can't get one of these officers to flip because they're facing jail time, it makes it a little harder. already it is really hard to
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convict a police officer in the case of someone dying in their custody. >> let alone six of them. >> joy reid, thanks for being here as always. good to see you. >> thank you. >> still ahead, jeb bush on the offensive, going further than he ever has but is it too late? plus the biggest question from last night's debate. do republicans want to finish what george w. bush started? >> and how 9/11 responders are one step closer to winning a major health care battle. those stories and more are ahead. but a few might shape the future. like turning algae into biofuel... technology for capturing co2 emissions... ...and cars twice as efficient as the average car today. ideas exxonmobil scientists are working on to make energy go further... matter how many tries it takes. energy lives here.
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grayhhhhhhhgra if you recall five months ago, i introduced donald trump. at that time i said we have something in common, the birth certificate investigation, which is still going on. >> that was sheriff joe arpaio of arizona introducing donald
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trump today and claiming the birther version, the debunked conspiracy theory that president obama was a born in kenya, despite producing a hawaiian birth certificate that, that controversy is somehow still going on. remember when trump was one of the most vocal birthers? >> i knew you were going to ask that question. you know what i'll say? i don't talk about that anymore. here's the story. i don't answer because you know what, if i do answer, that's all people want to talk about it. >> you're going to have to answer in a general election. >> coming up, what jeb bush might be willing to do it donald trump makes it to the general election. that's next. ok, we're here. here's dad. mom. the twins. aunt alice...
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donald trump may have pledged at last night's debate to stick with the republican party no matter what but now one of his rivals may decline to return the favor in trump wins the nomination. jeb bush stepped up his attacks on the front-runner managing to land a few punches for the first time. trump, true to form, hit back hard. >> donald is great at the one-liners. but he's a chaos candidate and he'd be a chaos president. >> jeb doesn't really believe i'm unhinged. he said that very simply because he has failed in this campaign. it's been a total disaster. nobody cares. >> donald, you're not going to be able to insult your way to the presidency. that's not going to happen. and i do have the strength. >> jeb's attitude, we will never be great again.
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that i can tell pyou. >> i will seek out the best advice that exists. i won't get my information from the show. >> this is a tough business. >> you're a tough guy, jeb. you're real tough. let's see, i'm at 42 and you're at 3 so so far you're doing better. >> doesn't matter. >> this morning bush took something of a victory lap, appearing on three cable news channels to expand his criticism of trump. >> i think i got a chance to express my views and compare them to someone who talks a big game but hasn't thought it through. if his proposal of banning all muslims would be implemented, it would be damaging to the security of our country. >> he made it clear that hillary clinton could be a great negotiator in iran. he thinks isis wasn't a threat just two months ago. he's not a serious candidate. >> according to politico, bush may be willing to go even further than he did at the
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debate last night, reportedly considering making a statement that if trump were the nominee, bush would go so far as to not support trump. bush responded "i really don't want jeb'sin dorsment because he is a low energy person and he does not represent strength, power and stamina, which are qualities our country desperately needs. while everyone said i beat him last night, i was only responding to his desperate attempt to stay relevant by attacking me. jeb is only doing this because i committed to run as a republican last night -- so dishonorable. >> okay, jake, let's talk about ronald reagan's vice president son jeb bush. with republicans like these, who needs democrats. i mean, as much as jeb landed a few punches, i feel like in the hours and perhaps days since, trump continues to cut him to
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ribbons. >> well, look, alex, bush was hoping to run as the goliath in the campaign. instead he finds himself running as david. in the debate -- a couple debates ago he -- his slingshot mainly hit himself. >> his face. >> when he went after rubio. >> but this time he got a couple pebbles off. i don't think he's such an effective david, but he's got to figure out how you get this giant, bully ogre down from the podium. you got to use humor. it's not going to be a frontal attack, it going to 's going to sideways attack. >> there was a real one-on-one unfolding between cruz and rubio that was substantive as far as foreign policy, national security and surveillance but jeb's sites were trained on trump and i felt like that was a missed opportunity for him to get in there and be part of what
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was become being paing part of event. >> it was a missed opportunity in the sense that his main competitor is marco rubio, right, because those two along with chris christie represent the plausible, quote unquote, establishment choices. bush has to find a way to take down rubio. maybe he wasted all that time. on the other hand, he at least showed some gumption, at least showed some fight, showed he could deliver a few punches and he made himself more of the conversation. so he did accomplish something last night. it probably a little late because he does have less -- well, to use a certain person's word, energy around him than rubio and now christie who was credited at having a better performance than bush overall.
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>> the cruz/rubio thing had a moment that was telling, when rubio pressed cruz on whether or not at the end of all these punitive immigration reform measures there would be citizenship on the line. i want to play that exchange again because we learned something about ted cruz in that moment. >> does ted cruz rule out ever legal iedsiesine -- legalizing n this country now? >> i have never supported legalization and i do not intend to support legalization. >> that to me leaves the door open to legalization, which for ted cruz seems like a big moment. >> stop for a moment and think how crazy this is this two sons of cuban immigrant fighting about who is going to slam the door harder to make sure nobody ever gets in after them. this is the life boat principle on steroids. and the truth is that rubio is
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prepared to be reasonable on immigration, but in this republican primary, you only win by being most extreme. this charge he brought against cruz that he supported the h1b vis visas, that was b.s. but to get to the right of -- >> for marco rubio to get to the right of ted cruz on immigration. >> there's nowhere else you can go other than lining up the immigrants and marching them out of the country single file. >> that has not stopped both ted cruz and marco rubio to spin this as if both are in support of amnesty. >> for the first time in five debates senator rubio publicly admitted not only that he had supported president obama and chuck schumer's amnesty but that
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he still supports amnesty. to this day he supports granting citizenship to 12 million people here illegally and it was the first time he admitted it not just on spanish television but english language television. >> how vulnerable is rubio on this in the long term? >> i think he's vulnerable from both ends. i think in the short term he's vulnerable in the republican primaries because he originally supported immigration reform and i can any number of real effective 30-second attack ads being made with some the thing he said back in the day. and if he does happen to be the candidate he's vulnerable from the other end because his last position, the best i was able to keep track of it, yeah, maybe
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someday there's a path to citizenship but it shouldn't be until after ten years. so in order, he would do nothing about it. so he can be attacked for that from the left and center. so i think he's tried to have this both ways and end up having it neither way. >> and here is marco rubio supporting ted cruz for supporting amnesty and after a new hampshire rally this morning, this is marco rubio on ted cruz. >> senator cruz has consistently supported a path to legalization. he did it in the senate at a committee meeting, he did it to the "new york times." i know he leaves it out of his stump speech -- >> last night he said he would not -- >> that's interestingly lawyerly language. he has been a supporter of legalization consistently, he has consistently refused to rule it out. if he's changed his position on that issue here, needs to answer the question of what he would do with the people who are here now. >> i feel like this is look through the looking glass.
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>> who supported a path to citizenship? who supported -- >> ronald reagan. >> who was quite a reasonable human being and reasonable president about immigration. you have all of these guys invoking him but completely denying his pragmatic, reasonable and effective position on this issue. i think what's going on is so tragic because this kind of ethnic nationalism, a kind of white nationalism that's been unlashed in the republican party is something that didn't really exist in reagan's party. it's something we haven't really seen in previous elections. even if it is ultimately defeated, if trump doesn't get the nomination, i think it going to be back because we've seen it works and there's support for it and that demon is out of the bottle. >> if trump gets the nomination or does not, we are now in the business of having to preface statements with that.
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thank you both for your time. still to come, the catch-all phrase republicans are using for things they disagree with, political correctness. a look at that just ahead. i dug this out for you. it's your grandpappy's hammer and he would have wanted you to have it. it meant a lot to him... yes, ge makes powerful machines. but i'll be writing the code that will allow those machines to share information with each other. i'll be changing the way the world works. (interrupting) you can't pick it up, can you? go ahead. he can't lift the hammer. it's okay though! you're going to change the world.
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in divided government, you don't get everything you want. this is a bipartisan compromise. i understand that some people don't like some of the aspect of this but that is the compromise that we have.
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>> that was house speaker paul ryan this morning acknowledging what can happen when lawmakers on each side of the aisle give a little to get a little. in this case he is talking about the first major piece of legislation of his speakership, a $1.1 trillion spending package that will avert a government shutdown and keep the lights on until october and also includes about $750 billion in tax breaks. t it will not cut of funding to planned parenthood. perhaps the biggest news from the current bill is the agreement to lift the 40-year ban on oil exports, largely seen as a victory for republicans. the spending bill also includes legislation to extend federal health monitoring and treatment for 9/11 responders until the
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year 2090, making it essentially permanent. back in october the republican-led congress allowed that health care program to expire and then they recessed without reauthorizing the james zadroga health and compensation act. stewart returned to the daily show last week to gather with the same four 9/11 responders who had visited the show in 2010. >> five and a half years ago we did a show. 75% of the panel is no longer here. two of the people have illnesses and obviously by law i can't comment on how sick they are. john devellyn, who sat in the last year, passed away since our show. >> this is the reality of
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people's lives affected by this. even the idea that you had to come here five and a half years ago to plead your case on national television to get this done was insulting and embarrassing for us as a nation. and this has been denied to many south africans for generations. this is an opportunity to right that wrong. the idea was to bring capital into the affordable housing space in south africa, with a fund that offers families of modest income safe and good accommodation. citi got involved very early on and showed an enormous commitment. and that gave other investors confidence. citi's really unique, because they bring deep understanding of what's happening in africa. i really believe we only live once, and so you need to take an idea that you have and go for it. you have the opportunity to say, "i've been part of the creation of over 27,000 units of housing,"
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get this low-mileage lease from around $339 per month, or purchase with 0% apr financing. isis and radical islamic terrorism will face no more determined foe than i will be. >> frankly, it's time that we punched the russian notis in th nose. >> we need tough people. >> when i get back in the white house, we will fight terrorists again and america will be safe. >> there was a lot of tough talk. donald trump called for the killing of family member of terrorists and ted cruz said he would carpet bomb the area where isis operates.
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george w. bush declared as president that spreading democracy around the world was, quote, the calling of our time. chris christie, marco rubio and jeb bush largely embraced his interventionist foreign policy legacy, while ted cruz, ben carson and rand paul argued that aggressive u.s. action abroad usually only makes things worse. >> anti-american dictators like assad who help hezbollah, who helped get those i.e.d.s into iraq, if they go i will not shed a tear. >> we topple assad, isis will take over syria and it will worsen national security interests. >> i would talk to vladimir putin a lot. i would say, listen, there's a no-fly zone in syria. you fly, in it applies to you. >> even donald trump made the case against u.s. intervention in the middle east making an argument that sounded a lot more like president obama there and former president bush.
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>> we've spent $4 trillion trying to topple various people that frankly if they were there and if we could have spent that $4 trillion in the united states to fix our roads, our bridges and all of the other problems, our airports and all of the other problems we have, we would have been a lot better off, i can tell that you right now. we have done a tremendous disservice not only to the middle east, we've done a tremendous disservice to humanity, the people that have been killed, been wiped away and for what? it's not like we had victory. it's a mess. the middle east is totally destabilized, a total and complete mess. >> joining me now is laura jacques, deputy managing editor of news for "foreign policy" magazine. thanks for joining me. watching the debate last night i was stunned at how much the legacy of george w. bush remains unresolved inside the republican
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party and on that debate stage. >> right. the struggle is to how best fight terrorism. do we take the fight to its roots in the east or do we try to protect the american people here at home by putting money into programs that will fulfill the national promise. that question really wasn't resolved yesterday. and we really saw the gamut from carly fiorina saying i'm not going to deal with putin until i have a bolstered fleet, chris christie saying i'm prepared to shoot down a russian jet if it violates the no-fly zone. >> i was also surprised that you
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had folks like ted cruz suggesting that bashar al assad may be the best deal the u.s. is going to get. that would have been unthinkable just two years ago. >> right. he wasn't alone. he was one of three people on that stage last night who said the same, donald trump agreed, rand paul agreed. their argument of course was if you topple assad or force him out, there's going to create a vacuum where the islamic straight or other extremist groups can come in and they will create more chaos than assad has done. that ignores the estimates of 200,000 to 300,000 people who have been killed in syria over the last five years almost, and it hughs very closely -- we're seeing the obama administration start to say we're prepared to live with assad a little more longer than we had in the past. at first the united states, the
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ba obama administration said assad must go and now they say we will decide at what point he will go and the republicans are saying he doesn't have to go at all. >> and given the rapidly chan changing nature of isis, when it comes down to the plan's outline last night, nobody seemed to have a good plan. in particular, ted cruz talked about carpet bombing with precision. that seems to be an oxymoron, precision carpet bombing, an impossibility, is that not the case? >> that's absolutely the case. eight total contradiction in terms. carpet bombing is the total obliteration. it completely wipes out the entire field beneath you. we saw that last in vietnam. that was called a quagmire that went on for years and years and years. cruz is trying to make the
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argument that if we're patrolling the skies as we did in iraq, we could try and patrol what's happening and we could hit the terrorists or extremists without hitting the civilian population. and that's impossible to do. once you drop a bomb, you drop a bomb. once you try to rain fire across a war zone, those people are dead and can you not try to pick. >> thus the turn reign of fire. it's not an exact term. in terms of general knowledge in terms of foreign policy and national security on display last night, certainly carly fiorina had to know that vladimir putin she may want to snub until there are certain protections in place but he is an important ally unfortunately in dealing with the problem in syria, in the same way donald trump suggested closing down the internet where isis operates. that would also seem like an
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impossibility. i guess were you dismayed by the level of perhaps naivete that was espoused in certain corners? >> the comment by governor christie comes to mind that he plans on talking to king hussein of jordan, who of course died in 1999. it would be king abdullah ii, who is now the king of jordan. maybe that was misspoke, maybe ignorance but it was jeb bush's argument who was trying to drive home the point you can't shut america out from the rest of the world. you have to go in and do the hard work of diplomacy and talk to people you might not want to in order to have a successful try. >> still to come, mallala
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condemns a candidate. which one?
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>> malala criticized donald trump today for calling to ban all muslims. she said that is really tragic when you hear these comments which are full of hatred, full of this ideology of being d discriminative against others. ♪ ♪
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ironically on the 200th anniversary of our bill of rights, we find free speech under assault throughout the united states, including on some college campuses. the notion of political correctness has ignited controversy across the land. >> it was born in the 90s and
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now it's back. an obsession with political correctness, and its supposed ills. last night alone in the gop debate, political correctness was assailed again and again and again, but this time for more nefarious reasons. >> we've defunded and tied the hands behind the backs of our intelligence agencies because of political correctness. >> this administration is so politically correct -- >> we will stop the terrorist attacks before they occur because we will not be prisoners to political correctness, rather we will speak the truth. >> and the patient is in critical condition and will not be krurd by political correctness. >> political correctness is killing people. >> they will take advantage of our p.c. attitude to get us. >> but railing against political correctness isn't limited to criticism of president obama's counterterror policies or last
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night's debate. front-runner donald trump has already used his aversion of his so-called p.c.ism to defense against sexism and racism, and a whole lot more. >> how will you answer that you are part of the war on women? >> i think a big problem this country has is being politically correct. i've been challenged by so many people, and i don't frankly have time for total political correctness. and to be honest with you, this country doesn't have time either. >> that's an offensive term. >> you mean it's not politically correct and yet everybody uses it? >> i am so tired of this politically correct crap. >> when we come back, is criticizing political correctness just a cover for justifying policies that are way out of bounds and possibly even illegal? that's next.
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. if they thought there was something wrong with that group and they saw what was happening and they didn't want to call the police because they didn't want to be profiling, i think that's pretty bad. a lot of people are dead right now. so everybody wants to be politically correct and that's part of the problem that we have with our country. >> donald trump suggesting earlier this month that political correctness kept people from calling attention to the san bernardino killers.
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>> liz, political correctness, i don't think i've heard it so many times as i did in last night's debate and i feel like political correctness is a cover for suggestions and ideas that are maybe unconstitutional? >> i don't know or just maybe really creepy. if you would just let me say racist stuff before i used to before people knew how bad it was, it was so much easier then. it's like all of our rights are rolling back that we're now back in 1992. >> david, i feel there's a dog whistle embedded in this. political correctness isn't just about president obama's counterterrorism policy and the way we refer or don't refer to islamic extremism. it's a blanket term for this encroaching liberal culture that may or may not include reproductive rights for women, gay marriage equality and a host
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of other social progress that is repugnant in certain corners of the republican party. >> that's right. i think it's been used as a euphemism for the idea that liberals who want stuff like respect for the law, want stuff like respect for civil rights, for reproductive rights, that liberals are taking over. and so instead of actually debating the merits of whether the constitution should be respected when it comes to civil liberties and the merits, it's like let's use a blanket -- having a debate on the merits of those things is not a winning proposition for republicans when you look at the polls across a general election electorate. >> i think that one of the frustrating things that tossing around the phrase "political correctness," every time you push back and say it's not political correctness, it's thrown back in one's face.
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it's almost an argument that ends in a dead end. >> the thing that's so interesting, for years those of us on the left fighting for these issues, we had to first prove that they existed. so it was always that thing and now that these horrible assaults on reproductive rights and justice, on racial equality, on syrian refugees, whatever you're talking about, it's revealing itself and we're forcing it to be a conversation. when we force it to be a conversation, it all of a sudden political correctness. no, we're no longer on the defensive. we're like you need to be on the defensive. >> can i add to that? i think there was an important other point here that wasn't mentioned in the republican debate, if you're going to take the term political correctness and use it in the way they're using it, that debate was filled with political correctness. the republicans, they weren't talking a lot about gun violence, they weren't talk a lot about the national security threat of climate change, they weren't talking about how mass
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shooters and various form of terrorism have happened from right-wing extremists. that was a form, if you use their definition of political correctness, that muting of that, that omission of that was a form of political correctness playing to the republican base. >> david, i can't also get away from the fact that at the sort of foundation of this, this skism is culture, right? that's the whole thing around political correctness, my version of the world versus yours. as much as the republicans would like to say it's the democrats starting the culture wars, that's what they're doing by talking about political correctness. >> that's a really, really good point. they're saying our way of doing things is the way that it going to be and we're going to force that way down your throat, those views down your throat by saying that any opposition to it represents this big boogie man called political correctness. again, i go back to the idea that they don't want to have a
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debate on the merits of these policies. they want to basically say my way or the highway and use that euphemism as a way to get their way. >> lizz, in fairness, the subject of political correctness is debated in progressive circles, in comedy circles. jerry seinfeld and chris rock said we don't want to play college campuses anymore because the p.c. has run amuck. >> i say if you're pushing boundaries and that's what you do in your life, you need to push boundaries and there's always going to be people who criticize what you say. but that's part of the deal. part of talking about things is pushing the boundaries -- >> and i feel very uncomfortable when i'm really hilarious because i'm never actually really hilarious.
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david sirota and lizz winstead, thank you. that's all for us. "the rachel maddow show "starts now. >> it was very possible for a long time the rules fox news was using to determine eligibility for that first debate might have resulted in the sitting republican governor of ohio not being allowed into the debate, even though it was in his own home state. governor john kasich of ohio almost had to watch that debate from, which is the governor's mansion, which would have been really weird for that first debate in ohio. luckily, though, in the end he made it. the second republican debate was held in california, which is a state that is 100% totally irrelevant in presidential


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