tv MSNBC Live With Jose Diaz- Balart MSNBC April 4, 2016 6:00am-8:01am PDT
and good morning. i'm steve kornacki at the top of the agenda right now, it is condition critical for donald trump in wisconsin. voting starts in that state less than 24 hours from now and the polls have turned against trump. a double digit deficit in some of the recent surveys against a surging ted cruz. is it too late for trump to
tally a win in the badger state? and if it is, just how bad could things get for him tomorrow? we will take you right into the thick of things on the ground in wisconsin in just a minute from now. also on the agenda today, could wisconsin be that dramatic turning point that the stop trump movement has been waiting and waiting and waiting for? well, that's what the washington post is asking this morning. trump is ahead in the delegate race right now on the republican side, but if he starts losing states that could leave the door wide open for republicans to deny him their nomination. in fact, they may have taken a small but significant step in that very direction in a very unlikely place this past weekend. we are going to explain all of the juicy details on what happened in the last 48 hours just a little bit later this hour so stay tuned for that. also rounding out the agenda for this monday morning, the thorn in her side that hillary clinton can't seem to get rid of. bernie sanders now surging into the lead in wisconsin, closing
the gap as well in the next big contest after that and accusing clinton of ducking another debate with him. all of this after clinton announced that she is so sick and tired of the sanders campaign lying about me. so why has sanders continued to attract such strong support and what will it take for clinton to put him away once and for all? we're going to talk to somebody from her campaign just a few minutes from now. but first this morning we want to begin with donald trump staring into the abyss, maybe in wisconsin. there is a sign of life for trump in that state this morning, check this out, a brand new tracking poll from emerson college, it does show ted cruz continuing to hold the lead in wisconsin heading into the final full day of campaigning there, but trump in this poll within 5. others in the last week had him falling behind by double digits, this same poll we should note two weeks ago had cruz up only a point. so it also shows movement in his direction.
john kasich you see sitting there in third place, still a prak for very much though with 21% in wisconsin. trump of course suffering through what was happens the last -- the worst seven days for his campaign over the last seven days, seven days that left the candidate doing something this weekend that we really haven't seen before, admitting he made a mistake. nbc's peter alexander and hallie jackson are out with the campaigns in wisconsin this morning. peter is with trump in lacrosse, hallie jackson following cruz in madison. so, peter, let's start with you and let's start with what i just mentioned there a minute ago, donald trump i guess in this column of maureen dowd in the "new york times" expressing contrition. tell us about it. >> that's exactly right. in fact, he will be back on the trail with his wife tonight, but he did wade back into that war over wives thing as you noted it was a mistake to put out that retweet that showed the unflattering picture of heidi cruz next to his wife melania,
he said as follows, quote, if i had to do it again i wouldn't have sent it. that's about as close to contrition as you've heard from donald trump over the course of this entire campaign so far, obviously that deficit with women is critical, but the state really is pivotal not just for trump but also for ted cruz because it's a more moderate conservative state, cruz hoping to show that he can expand into states like this going forward. donald trump says if he wins here in his words it's over regardless what happens here, after this state they head to more favorable territory, the northeast, the places like new york where donald trump believes he will do well. he insists even if he can't hold on here it's not done for him but he is putting a lot of chips on the table, three more events today, three more events in each of the last two days, investing a lot of energy in this state and investing energy trying to make the point that john kasich should get out of this race. steve, you've made it clear that kasich is taking votes away from
him not from ted cruz. he said because mathematically kasich can't reach that 1,237 number before the convention in cleveland that kasich should leave. kasich's team unimpressed about i that saying as long as we are on the topic why doesn't donald trump get out of the race before the convention. steve. >> peter alexander on the stump with donald trump in lacrosse. thanks for that. of course, trump hoping for a come from behind victory in wisconsin tomorrow as peter said trump confident if he could pull that off it would put him well on his way to the nomination but ted cruz hoping for just the opposite, a victory, a big victory tomorrow that would turn the tide nationally in this republican race, that's what the stop trump people have been waiting for for some time now. hallie jackson is following the cruz campaign in madison. hallie, bigger picture here, obviously ted cruz needs to win in wisconsin tomorrow but what about that idea of turning the tide, reversing the momentum in other states? how confident are they they can make that happen? >> reporter: so let's take bra he can that down into a couple
different pieces. let's start off with what's happening here in wisconsin because that's got to happen first in order for ted cruz and his campaign to make the argument they want to make which is they are best positioned in the calendar moving forward. two reasons why wisconsin is different and key for ted cruz. number one, it's an open primary and number two you're seeing a more moderate conservative in this state. that is something that cruz has not been able to sort of lock down at least in previous states that he has won. essentially this state, wisconsin, looks different than other states that cruz has done well in. his one campaign aid said to me it looks more like michigan than iowa. iowa cruz sailed to victory largely because of evangelical support in that state. in wisconsin you're seeing that double digit flip from a month ago which the cruz campaign feels is momentum behind them. it's about the gel dat count but more about momentum as this primary season moves into the northeast part of the calendar.
that gets to the second part of your picture which is how the stop trump movement with stop trump as we head into states like new york where trump is seen as potentially being able to do well given that he's from there and seems like it's a more natural fit for him. if cruz is able to pull out a victory in wisconsin the thinking goes he is able to point to that as an argument that he is expanding his demographic appeal and geographic appeal and he can go into states like new york which the campaign acknowledges looks bumpy right now and compete in some of those congressional districts to be able to cut away and peel off some of that trump support. for the stop trump movement as a whole wisconsin is one of their best shots to be able to stop trump, to be able to do what the movement wants to do and carry some of that momentum moving forward. ted cruz could win wisconsin and in two weeks donald trump could come in and do very well in new york and then we're back to where we're looking at this idea will donald trump get enough delegates, will this move to a
contested convention. wisconsin is the home state of people that are in positions of leadership and power within the party, reens priebus, scott walker, so a lot of dynamics that are at play in this battle ground state. >> paul ryan's name continues to come up as well. all that chatter about if there is an open convention and they return turn to somebody who is running you still hear ryan's name mentioned. hallie jackson in madison. >> even this morning. >> talk that won't die probably until this summer in cleveland if it does die. thanks for that, hallie. going to turn now to charlie sykes, he is a conservative radio host in wisconsin also a msnbc contributor he has been critical of donald trump's campaign, had an interview with donald trump that got a lot of attention in the last couple weeks. let me ask you you're on the ground out there, we're 24 hours away, we all all the polls where
ted cruz moved into a clear lied, there is one this morning that suggests maybe it's tightening a little bit. what do you say the lay of the land is 24 hours out in wisconsin? >> well, i think it's going to be an interesting result but i don't sense any real momentum here because, you know, the voters here are really locked in, they've been paying attention there is a lot of engagement and the polls last week that showed ted cruz with a ten point lead were taken before some of the bad stumbles from donald trump including his bizarre decision to attack scott walker right in his backyard. that doesn't play well among conservative republican primary voters. >> you had this interview it got a lot of attention with donald trump you pressed him very hard, it got fairly contentious, i think is a fair way of saying it, let me play first of owl he mentioned you over the weekend campaigning in wisconsin. this is what he said about that interview he had with you. >> this morning i was
interviewed by a very good radio guy not the whack job that interviewed me his name is sykes and a couple of him. he's the worst. most people would say let's hang up now. don't hang on. you take on the enemy. you absolutely take them on. >> he's saying he wants credit for actually calling in and talking to you. what do you say? >> well, i don't think he had any idea that i was a never trump guy. i asked him during the course of the interview i said when you called in did you know that i read and said about you? he said, no, that i did not know which says something about his campaign i think. actually he's doubled down on that, he actually called me i think a low life loser which i think is kind of a badge of honor when you think about it, great moment in presidential rhetoric. my whole point of the interview was to ask him at some point are you going to start to sound more presidential? do you realize you are running for the office once held by abraham lincoln and he hasn't
taken my invitation because he hasn't changed his rhetoric. >> the big question is if he does fall short in wisconsin, if he loses big in wisconsin tomorrow, do you think that does anything nationally to change the race or does he just turn around, win new york his home state big, win the northeast big and be still on track to win the nomination? >> that's possible, but it's also possible it's a pivot because what we will have shown in wisconsin is that he is vulnerable, he can be taken down and you really have the perfect storm right now, you have -- you have the formula for stopping donald trump. i also think you're getting a change in the media tone that maybe there are folks in the media who are now willing to ask and drill down and dive down into some of these questions. as chris matthews showed last week you start asking tough questions of donald trump and what you find out is on a lot of key issues he hasn't thought about them for more than 30 seblngds. there is no there there. and if that pattern persists maybe you will have a change in
the dynamic. plus a guy who keeps talking about being a winner, winner, winner, he's going to spend the next two weeks explaining why he was a loser in wisconsin. >> you said we've seen in wisconsin the formula to beat him. is it just to let him make self-inflicted wounds or if you are a cruz or if you're kasich what are the things you can be doing to defeat him yourself? >> well, in wisconsin donald trump has not had the air cover that he has had from some of the national talk show hosts. he has been subject to more scrutiny, he has been challenged. on the air you have a lot of the anti-trump super pacs who are running heavy buys, direct mail, you have political leaders who are getting off the sidelines and standing up basically saying, look, we cannot do this to the conservative movement to nominate donald trump. so whether you're talking about the pre media, paid media, the organization on the ground, the kinds of endorsements that you would get from governor scott walker, all of that has lined up. i mean, honestly, if donald
trump does win in wisconsin i don't know how he is possibly stoppable, but i do think that people will look back at wisconsin and say, all right, this is exactly what it will take to stop donald trump from being the republican nominee. >> finally, charlie, you are a wisconsin guy. paul ryan's name keeps coming up nationally. there was a story in "politico" this morning saying if you get to cleveland, if nobody has the delegates in cleveland, if this goes a couple ballots in cleveland the republican party will turn to paul ryan and make him their candidate at the convention in summer. do you think that that could happen or do you say it's got to be one of the candidates running now? >> do you know what, this is a campaign where anything can happen. now, i have to confess that i've been a paul ryan guy for more than a decade, i've been pushing him to run for a variety of things so is that possible? yes. is it probable? no. would it be something the people in wisconsin would like to see? of course. but right now i think the key is to focus on coalescing around
the one guy that can stop donald trump in wisconsin and i think you're seeing the dominoes falling into place for ted cruz. >> charlie sykes in wisconsin, thanks for the time. i appreciate it. >> thank you. all right. and coming, tensions running high with just a day to go before the big wisconsin primary, the war of words heating up on the democratic side between hillary clinton and bernie sanders. >> and i'm also a democrat and have been a proud democrat all my adult life and i think that's kind of important if we're selecting somebody to be the democratic nominee of the democratic party. >> i think the secretary is getting very nervous that poll after poll shows us doing much better against trump than she is. >> will tomorrow's primary in wisconsin give sanders the momentum he needs to take on clinton and beat her in her home state of new york two weeks from now? and also still ahead this hour, the number one why it is so
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all right. we talked about the republican race in wisconsin. turning now to the democratic side of the lemger, things getting increasingly testy between hillary clinton and bernie sanders. and it's not just about the issues these days, they can't even seem to agree on a debate. more on what's going on there in just a minute, but right now the focus as we said is very much on the state of wisconsin. that's the big primary on the docket tomorrow. hillary clinton is not going to be in that state today but her husband, bill clinton, will be. he's making a pair of stops as part of a last minute push trying to edge hillary clinton back into the lead in that state but the latest poll is not good news for the clintons, bernie sanders leading by 8 points,
that's a 14-point swing in that state in just the past two weeks. moving very much in sanders' direction. there is another poll that shows a tighter race there, but again it shows bernie sanders leading hillary clinton on the eve of the wisconsin primary and that wisconsin race may be less about gaining delegates, after all, if sanders wins by the margin you're seeing in those polls he probably won't gain many delegates but his campaign is hoping for a big gain of momentum. >> if there is a large voter turnout we will win. let us have the largest voter turnout on a primary day in wisconsin history. >> we mentioned that hillary clinton will not be in wisconsin. today instead she will be in new york. new york is the home of the next big contest that will take place two weeks from tomorrow. 247 delegates will be up for grabs when new york votes on april 19th. the latest poll in the empire state shows better news for hillary clinton, a ten point
lead for her over bernie sanders in her home state, however, keep in mind polling in new york just a couple weeks ago and a couple months ago showed her up more than 20 points over bernie sanders. so that is a gain for sanders even though hillary clinton continues to lead in new york, even though clinton has spent as much time on her potential republican opponents as her democratic one. >> one step at a time. i'm definitely focused on the primary because i don't want to take anything anyplace or anyone for granted but i also believe strongly that, you know, ted cruz tried to insult new york values, donald trump even though he is a lifelong new yorker seems to forget that we are a nation of immigrants. i want us to celebrate new york and celebrate our country. >> and now while all of this is going on a somewhat bizarre development this morning courtesy of an article in the "new york times" in which the sanders campaign seems to admit it's all but doomed. the article includes quotes from sanders' advisors, even from his
wife saying this his strategy was flawed from the beginning and that they had missed key opportunities to run a more effective campaign. nbc's kasie hunt is following the sanders campaign in janesville, wisconsin, that's house speaker paul ryan's hometown and kristen welker is in new york city in clinton. kasie, this "new york times" article, what more can you tell us about what the sanders campaign is saying here? >> the timing of this is a little bit difficult, they're expect to go potentially be able to win here in wisconsin this week, potentially use that momentum to carry into new york, a couple weeks later and potentially challenge hillary clinton on her adopted home turf, but today in the times i'm going to give you this quote from tad divine, one of the senior strategists, he said, quote, the central complication with bernie is that he never wanted to cross into the zone of personal attacks because it would undercut his brand. is there another candidate who could have run a tough negative campaign against hillary clinton
from the beginning and been effective? sure. but it couldn't have been bernie. that's just not who he is. so what you're seeing here is a little bit of second guessing inside the sanders camp about how this campaign has played out. when he of course started no one really expected him to be the serious challenger to hillary clinton that he has turned out to be and in the beginning there was a sense that this was about a liberal cause, for example, about putting these issues that bernie sanders talks about on the front burner and he certainly has done that, but somewhere along the way they came to realize that they actually had something that could potentially go all the way through to the nomination now they're looking back and saying there are a couple of places where we might have made mistakes, expectations building in nevada, that was a real turning point, but the reality is that this is about bernie sanders himself and what he is comfortable doing and not doing and i think that at the end of the day that's where
responsibility is going to rest for how this ultimately turns out, whether it's a cause campaign or a winning one, steve. >> all right. kasie hunt in jans vilg, wisconsin, with the sanders campaign. thanks for that. going to turn to kristen welker, she is on the west side of manhattan. hillary clinton is going to be there a few hours from now speaking. kristen, a lot going on in wisconsin, the clinton campaign looking ahead to new york but we mentioned at the start of this a thorn in her side bernie sanders has been and so has this issue of her e-mails. i understand she's still addressing that in the last couple days as well. >> reporter: she address that had this weekend, steve, with chuck todd on "meet the press." this is the issue that has dogged her campaign more than any other issue. as we know there is a an fbi investigation under way. they anticipate to be interviewing some of her former top staffers from the state department and we also think ultimately they will interview secretary clinton and that would
indicate that this investigation is in fact wrapping up. the clinton campaign says, hey, that's a good thing because they think that it is going to reveal that there was no wrongdoing but here is how secretary clinton answered some of chuck's questions this weekend. take a listen. >> has the fbi reached out to you yet for an interview? >> no. no, they haven't. back in august we made clear that i'm happy to answer any questions that anybody might have and i stand by that. >> are you concerned that this isn't going to wrap up before the convention? >> no, i'm not, because i don't think anybody inappropriate was done and so i have to let them decide how to resolve their security inquiry but i'm not at all worried about it. >> reporter: so that is the backdrop to this increasingly competitive race, steve, and of course wisconsin weighs in tomorrow, senator sanders does have a narrow lead there in the state, we will be watching closely for the margins right now depending on which poll you're looking at he leads by 2 to 4 points, if he can increase that even more he would not only
start to chip into her delegate lead a little bit but he would really make a statement and that would i have go him a lot of momentum heading into new york of course new york is a delegate rich state, secretary clinton cannot lose this state, the optics of that would be horrible, mathematically she could weather a loss here but it would be devastating for her campaign. that is why she is focusing here, she has this event here and then again later tonight her final event in albany. steve. >> all right, kristen welker in new york city. thanks for that. now going to bring in karen finney a senior spokesperson for the clinton campaign. she joins us from washington. look, a lot of people noticing and kristen just said in her report there hillary clinton spending the day before the wisconsin primary not in wisconsin but in the next state to vote, looks like dialing back expectations tomorrow for your campaign. tell me tomorrow what would a win be in wisconsin for the clinton campaign? >> well, steve, a win is a win is a win. i mean, you know, let's be clear about that. as you pointed out president
clinton is there today, he was actually there over the weekend as was secretary clinton on saturday. so, look, we are just going to keep working hard right down to the last minute, but as you point out we then have to very quickly turn to new york and we've got a whole host of other states. obviously we're trying to make sure we are both campaigning in wisconsin but then looking ahead to new york which as you know is going to be critically important. >> let's look ahead to new york. there is a debate over debates breaking out, people who follow politics have seen one or two of these. you have the sanders campaign basically saying you guys are trying to duck a debate in new york, that you nice are saying you want to do it but when it comes to arranging the logistics you're being very difficult with them. that's the gist of what the sanders campaign is saying. let me just ask you is there going to be a debate between hillary clinton and bernie sanders in new york? >> well, i certainly hope we can work it out. look, i think both senator sanders and secretary clinton have said they also -- we also -- she also wants to make
sure -- wants to try to make something happen. i mean, i find it ironic -- look, this was kient kind of a stunt that was set up i believe by the sanders campaign. in theory we in principle agreed to additional debates, we had one in flint, there was a conversation about new york, obviously as you know that's a conversation that goes within with the dnc and media partners. gma came to the dnc at one point and said -- or abc and said how about a gma debate, the sanders campaign didn't want to do that. there have been some back and forth about other dates but now we are at the place where we've suggested the 14th or the 15th and on the 14th there would be a national media partner and local media partner it's one of the dates that the sanders campaign had initially proposed. so, you know, i certainly hope we will work it out, we're trying to say yes, but we will just have to see what happens in the conversations. >> and i don't want to litigate
this too finely, but i do want want to run by you the 14th here is what the sanders campaign said about the date of the 14th, they said they had a rally planned in new york city, you know how these rallies go in new york city, hillary clinton represented new york, you have to get all these park permits, they're very difficult to get, once you get something like that it's locked in. they're saying they can't do the 14th, they could do the 10th, 11th, 12th, 13th, one of those days work for you guys? >> i mean, come on, guys. >> do one of those days work for you guys? >> but here is the thing, so the 14th -- i they said they didn't want the weekend, here you have a prime date and both senator sanders and secretary clinton have done rallies on days where we have had debates and somehow i would bet you that the folks in new york city would be willing to help mr. sanders out if it really came down to just a matter of trying to, you know, find a new venue, somehow i
think that could be worked out. >> all right. i thought we would get an agreement for one of those days, we tried. >> nice try. >> thanks for the time. appreciate it. and a lot more to come this hour, it is brought to you today by the way by the number one, one of the most important numbers in politics today at least as we head into this open convention season potentially. after this weekend's north dakota state convention donald trump might be feeling like it's also the loan least number of the day. we will explain what we mean by all of this straight ahead. ♪ it was always just a hobby. something you did for fun. until the day it became something much more. and that is why you invest. the best returns aren't just measured in dollars. td ameritrade.
and i want to remind you that no one's the same without the game. take @youwishcommi8 for instance. he writes, "as commissioner of my fantasy league, i'm thinking about moving the draft up... to next week. too early?" commish, the season is a ways out. months in fact. no rosters are set, the draft hasn't even happened yet, and not a single free agent has been signed. so, it is too early? ...yes it is. dial it back, commish... way back.
i built my business with passion. but i keep it growing by making every dollar count. that's why i have the spark cash card from capital one. i earn unlimited 2% cash back on everything i buy for my studio. ♪ and that unlimited 2% cash back from spark means thousands of dollars each year going back into my business... that's huge for my bottom line. what's in your wallet? so we want to tell you about the most important number in politics today and it is one. one. that is the number of delegates that donald trump may and that's the keyword here, may end up walking a with from the state of north dakota. here is what happened. north dakota is different than most states, it doesn't have a primary, it doesn't have a caucus on the republican side.
instead it holds a state convention and at that state convention 25 republicans are chosen to become delegates to the national convention which will be held this summer in cleveland. that north dakota state convention it was held this weekend in fargo and of the 25 national convention delegates that were chosen ted cruz is claiming he got 18 of them, there were also a few more who are undecided and there's only one, though, only one delegate of those 25 who is on the record backing donald trump. he got one officially out of 25. now, these may sound like small numbers from a small state, but remember if donald trump is going to break the magic number of 1,237 at the convention in cleveland it's going to be very close. he needs every single delegate that he can get his hands on. getting wiped out in north dakota would be a very big deal for donald trump and for the forces trying to stop him. however, there is a pretty big catch here because those 25 delegates that were chosen in fargo this weekend, well, they
are officially unbound and what does that mean? it means that whatever they say right now they can still show up at the national convention and vote for whoever they want. so even though most of them appear to be cruz supporters, they could still change their minds. maybe donald trump can win a few of them over, maybe john kasich can, maybe somebody else will show up at the convention this summer and do it there. so we can only say that what happened in north dakota this weekend appears to be bad news for donald trump, we just can't say that for sure at least not yet. and keep in mind north dakota is not the only place that has unbound delegates on the republican side, pennsylvania, wyoming, the virgin islands, guam, they will also send unbound delegates to the convention this summer. there could be some from colorado, too, although the process is a little more complicated there, cruz may end up just winning most of them, we still have to see on colorado. all of this, though, could be a huge story months from now. imagine this, imagine if donald
trump finishes the primaries with, say, 1,1175, 1,175 delegates, that would be short of the magic number of 1,237, but then there would be all of these unbound delegates just sitting out there, a little more than 100 of them. what they finally decide to do could be the difference between donald trump getting over the top in cleveland or something stopped cold, unbound delegates, keep them in mind in the next few months. of course, the next skem bl for delegates is going to happen tomorrow in wisconsin, 86 of them up for grabs on the kralt tick side, 42 on the republican side. going to go now to the capital city of wisconsin, madison, jesse covers state government and politics for the capital times and joins us now. jesse, we're talking about delegates here. let's look at the republican side first because this delegate question very interesting in wisconsin. we have the polls that say cruz is ahead, maybe trump could still watch him, maybe trump finishes second but the real
race is how those 42 delegates are going to break down because there are a lot of pockets there. tell us about that. >> sure. so the -- on the republican side of things the delegates are apportioned partially in sort of a winner take all way but they are divided up among congressional districts so that raises the possibility for even one like john kasich who is not likely to do well overall throughout the state to maybe pick up a few in a more left leaning or moderate area like, for instance, the madison area. >> there's the possibility here for somebody like donald trump if he kpoms in second place tomorrow there's still a big range of possibilities, i mean, he could still pick up on a good day coming second he could pick up 12, 15 delegates, on a bad day he could walk away with zero. >> that's true. that's very true. polling would indicate he's certainly not doing as well as he had hoped to do here in wisconsin and there's a good chance he walks away with not much to show for it. >> what about on the democratic side, we keep talking about how
the rules are so different there when it comes to giving out these delegates, it's proportional in every state. for bernie sanders what that's meant so far is it's hard for hillary clinton to pull too far ahead in this race but at the same time she gets ahead by a couple hundred delegates it's hard for him to come back. even if he wins tomorrow doesn't look like he will get a landslide on the delegate side. that is right? >> that's right. it will be pretty minor i think any sort of lead and that's again democrats have a majority of pledged delegate here but a handful of unpledged super delegates it would indicate he is probably maybe going to come away if he does win with a handful more than hillary clinton, but certainly not anything like double digits or anything like that. >> we'll see how those delegate counts break down, we will have to get some congressional district maps out for the republicans tomorrow night. we will put them up on the big board. thanks for the time. i appreciate it.
>> thanks, steve. coming up, it is hard to imagine but could donald trump and ted cruz's campaigns actually be working together? ahead we will look at the latest effort to stop a republican candidate and this time that candidate is not named donald trump. the plan to cut off john kasich before the convention, this msnbc exclusive report is next. i love to take pictures that engage people and to connect us with the wonderment of nature. with the tiger image, the saliva coming off and you got this turning. that's why i need this kind of resolution and computing power. being able to use a pen like this on the screen directly with the image, it just gives me a different relationship to it and i can't do that on my mac. this is brilliant for me. try cool mint zantac. hey, need fast heartburn relief? it releases a cooling sensation in your mouth and throat. zantac works in as little as 30 minutes. nexium can take 24 hours.
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do you know where the waterfall is? waterfall? no, me tarzan, king of jungle. why don't you want to just ask somebody? if you're a couple, you fight over directions. it's what you do. if you want to save fifteen percent or more on car insurance, you switch to geico. oh ohhhhh it's what you do. ohhhhhh! do you have to do that right in my ear? kasich shouldn't be allowed to continue and the rnc shouldn't allow him to continue. >> there are two candidates and only two candidates who have any plausible path to winning the republican nomination, me and donald trump. >> donald trump and ted cruz stepping up the pressure on john kasich with trump pushing for kasich to get out of the race or to be forced out of the race even. how is the ohio governor responding to that? let's going to long island, temp stead, new york, ahead of a town hall kasich will be holding there later this morning.
nbc's kelly o'donnell is there. kelly, what is kasich saying about what we just heard from donald trump? -p>> reporter: well, first of a, steve, they have not opened the doors here yet if you're wondering why there are empty chairs behind me. donald trump over the weekend was certainly dissing john kasich for the size of his clouds compared to some of the lengthy long waits we've seen for donald trump. no surprise the john kasich team is saying, donald trump, if you think it's such a great idea to drop out of the race that option is open to you as well. in every cycle there is always a candidate who irritates those who are perhaps doing better because there's always a argument that they take some of the votes, some of the delegates and attention away. for john kasich don't expect anything but a plan to get to cleveland. he says and we have had conversations with him that he has the fundraising to do that and it's about for him making the case bit by bit, introducing himself further to the public and that's a hard argument this deep into the season, but he believes that when the
convention happens and the state that he governs, ohio, that he has a shot to be an alternative when the republicans who are the delegates, who are typically traditional party operatives activists, devoted republicans, look at the choices, john kasich thinks he becomes the reasonable alternative to a donald trump or a ted cruz. that's the game plan they're working with despite the calls for him to get out of the race and of course the rnc doesn't tell candidates to get out of the race so donald trump asking them to do something about it is a little off the point. steve. >> all right. kelly o'donnell in temp stead, new york, thanks for that. as kelly said the work to stop kasich stretches from the campaign trail all the way potentially to the convention. ari melber is here with an exclusive report out this morning about why both the trump and cruz campaigns think that stopping kasich benefits both of them. ari joins me to walk us through the logic.
>> the logic is basically that with this person out, either now or if they force her out at the convention both sides would benefit trump and cruz. we will see how that works. let me walk through what i learned going on what kelly o'donnell was discussing. a cruz aid telling me there will be, quote, only two candidates on the ballot at the convention and a trump aid telling me convention delegates are not going to oppose a ballot backed by the top two candidate, they want to use rules that would put just trump and cruz on that convention ballot in the early balloting if there is an open convention. how does that work? the selected delegates write the rules. all delegates vote on the rules in the convention floor and that gets you to a convention ballot arguably according to my sources in these two campaigns that would only put them on. now, we heard kelly o'donnell talking about kasich's response to donald trump saying get out now. i spoke to several advisors and aids to john kasich about this convention scenario, they push
back hard, this is the only lifeline they have left, one telling me we will be on the ballot and the effort shows cruz is worried about a kasich scenario at the convention. that he could become the alternative to trump, obviously, not ted cruz and also another tells me, look, the idea of limiting the ballot is a strategy to discredit kasich's campaign. the fact is every convention sets its own rules, which is true and that was from charlie black of course as you know a long time republican operative and viser and he was saying this isn't about what it sounds like, this is them trying to make us sound like we're dead in the water so that we're dee moral eyesed and our supporters go away when if fact we can get on the ballot. no one knows what will happen until all those delegates are picked, but we have heard from a lot of people saying there is a precedent for this, if it's a photo finish between two people leave it to just those two people on the ballot. that could be a problem for john kasich. >> the big question is when we get to june/july if this is
where we are what does each campaign then calculate what is in their best interesting. >> and the one sentence wrinkle is it is possible that it would help donald trump to have kasich on the ballot. i have one adviser who basically off -- you know, not for attributia attribution aid we don't know what's good for us yet. >> open conventions are a reporters dream now we're finding out why. thanks for that. while donald trump tries to muscle john kasich out of the way where do things stap with the stop trump movement? let's bring in vin webber. a john kasich supporter. first of all, the public comments from donald trump saying get out of the way, john kasich, but also this maneuvering behind the scenes potentially to cut john kasich off a ballot at the convention. what do you make of it? >> i think you covered a lot of it in your discussion with ari and charlie black made the important point. this is really not aimed at the convention, it's aimed at suppressing john kasich's vote and the remaining primaries by making him a appear to the not be a serious alternative when he
is the most serious alternative. in addition to that both trump and cruz president can't be right this is in their interest. one of them is going to figure out it's not in their interest to try to keep john kasich off the ballot and we could have a rules fight in cleveland but i think it will end up with john kasich being on the ballot. even if that doesn't happen we are not going to nominate anybody on the first ballot at this convention and after the first ballot additional candidates can come forward and be nominated. so john kasich is going to cleveland, he's going to be a contender, i think he's going to be the nominee. >> you're confident the first ballot will not produce a majority. 1,237 is the magic number. let's say trump gets through the primaries as we said in the last segment, let's say it's 1,175, he's clearly in first place, short by 50 or 60, is he so close at that point that to deny him the nomination is going to be to risk a huge backlash? >> no, i don't buy that. i mean, we're following the
rules that were established very early on. you need a majority in order to get endorsed by the convention. the problem donald trump has is normally you go to a convention, my state of minnesota chooses candidates at conventions i'm very familiar with this and the front runner going in usually has a lot of people who view him as their second choice and so on the second or third ballot the front runner goes over the top. that's not likely the case with donald trump. in fact, quite the opposite is the case. donald trump probably would go in there with a significant number of delegates bound to him by the results of the primary who don't really want to vote for him and would leave him on the second ballot. i think that he will go in with his peak number of delegates on that first ballot and decline from there. >> very interesting stuff. we are a little short on time but please come back because we want to talk more about this goog forward. >> my pleasure. thanks a lot. most may know by now i'm a pretty big sports fan, i love team rivalries and bad news for me tonight is the college
basketball season is wrapping up and that means i have to turn my attention to baseball. it's not my favorite sport, but it does offer a unique element that other sports don't, the ceremonial first pitch. today is opening day for major league baseball so we thought we would show this year's remaining presidential candidates how it's done if they have to play that role some day, what you a're seeing is jfk tossing out a pitch from 1961. up next we will look at other politicians taking their turn on the hill. our cosmetics line was a hit.
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each day was fueled by thorough preparation for events to come. well somewhere along the way, emily went right on living. but you see, with the help of her raymond james financial advisor, she had planned for every eventuality. ...which meant she continued to have the means to live on... ...even at the ripe old age of 187. life well planned. see what a raymond james advisor can do for you. we're about ready for the first-pitch ceremony with the queen of england ready to toss out the first ball. >> how about that queen, ladies and gentlemen? let's have a nice round of applause. >> and today is opening day in major league baseball, and opening day means ceremonial first pitches. that one, of course, from the classic comedy "the naked gun."
when you're president of the united states, throwing out the first pitch on opening day, well, that's part of the job. it's a tradition that goes back more than 100 years to william howard taft in 1912. so with that in mind, we thought we would offer up some tips to all the candidates running for president right now. if they win, they're probably going to have to throw out a first pitch or two. bernie, hillary, donald, ted, john, pay attention. rule number one for you. when you're leader of the free world, you do not want to come up short of home plate, which is why some presidents tend to overcompensate. as you see president obama doing there. you gotta keep it steady, even when the team mascot may be distracting you. rule two, if you do throw a wild pitch, you maybe should demand a mulligan. you're president of the united states. no one is going to deny you a second chance if you ask for one. look what ronald reagan did on his second chance. how about rule number three?
it's this, throw with confidence, which no president has done quite like george w. bush did during game three of the 2001 world series. this is a famous one. this was just more than a month after september 11th, an emotional crowd in yankee stadium, thefirst world series game in new york. they were looking for inspiration. the president certainly delivered it with that strieg right up the middle. anyway, enough of the baseball talk because for me, i just got back from the final four in houston. that's my favorite sport. there's me with syracuse legend scoop jar dean. that was this weekend. the only sporting event i care about today is tonight's ncaa basketball final between north carolina and villanova. go wildcats. do it for the old big east. anyway, more politics right after this. (boy) ma, pa - why do we settle for cable?
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and good monday morning to you. i'm jose diaz-balart. the war in wisconsin is getting down to the trenches on this final full day of campaigning. tomorrow's primary crucial for all the candidates, but perhaps none more so than republican donald trump. if he wants to win the gop nomination outright, he desperately needs a win. but with ted cruz still beating the drum of last week's barrage of bad headlines, it might be too late. last polls before tomorrow's voting gives cruz a solid advantage. a cbs news/yougov poll shows the senator ahead 43% to 37%. that's just outside the margin of error. a college poll puts cruz ahead by seven, and forces in the trump party hope wisconsin is the turning point they need to gain traction.
a trump loss would almost insure an open convention, and open a way to deny him the gop nomination. a movement to stop trump ramped up this weekend in a very unlikely place. a normally sleepily gathering in north dakota turned into a big wake-up call on saturday. the state picking up 25 gop delegates to send to cleveland this summer. here's the twist. their so-called unbound delegates meaning they don't have to make up their mind until they get to the convention. and in a close race, they could make all the difference. ted cruz even diverted his campaign to fargo to make a personal appeal. but it's wisconsin, and tomorrow's primary in the badger state, that is the focus today. our team spread out across the political landscape this morning. we start with nbc news national correspondent peter alexander in lacrosse, wisconsin. good morning. it seems that trump has a lot of ground to make up in very little time. >> yeah, that's exactly right, jose. we have seen new polls that show ted cruz is winning the state that frankly donald trump should
do well in. it's blue collar demographics, an open primary that allows independents to vote as well. that has been a recipe for success for donald trump for the course of this campaign. he remains optimistic, said he senses this feels a lot like what happened in new hampshire. he thinks he'll surprise his critics. in new hampshire, it turned out to be a landslide trump victory, but there are been challenges. the self had inflicted wounds. he himself admitting it was a mistake to retweet the unflattering picture of heidi cruz alongside the picture of his wife, the former model, melania,tri trump. one thing that was striking was this delegate, the state by state fight for delegates. north dakota looks line ted cruz outperformed the competition. in tennessee, it looks like some of the people who will vote for donald trump at the beginning of a contested convention may go to somebody else in the later
rounds. reince priebus, the chairman of the rnc addressed that this weekend. >> the nomination is won on the floor in cleveland by the majority of delegates that get empowered by the vote of the people. so the voters in these states, their votes end up causing delegates to be bound to candidates and those delegates will have to vote for those candidates on the floor. there's no way around it. if a delegate is bound to a candidate, even if that delegate decides later, i don't care. i'm not voting for that person, the secretary at the convention will read the roll as if that delegate voted for the person they're bound to. period. >> as donald trump has said, if he wins here in wisconsin, this race is over. if he loses, things get more interesting. it will head to more fertile ground for trump, the northeast, places like his home state of new york. but you do still feel an energy for trump, certainly in places like lacrosse, wisconsin, where
we are today. i met a retired air force veteran who says in decades of voting, this is the first time he's gone into a polling booth where he hasn't had to hold his nose, picking a man where he actually wants to be president. >> and peter, you briefly spoke about melania. mr. trump's wife. she is set to join him on the trail tonight. that's different. >> yeah, that's exactly right. we haven't seen her on the trail beside her husband since south carolina, i think it is. and obviously, she's a big assets. a lot of people we have spoken to say they like donald trump because he says what they're thinking. he communicates like a business person, not a politician. there's also a celebrity element to it as well. a lot of people are excited just to have donald trump. having melania trump with him tonight is only going to help that effort. >> thank you very much. i want to bring in nbc's hallie jackson who is in madison with ted cruz. hallie, cruz is kind of acting like a front-runner or is it maybe a bit of cautious optimism.
>> you talked about the polls, the ones you showed out now, the latest ones before tomorrow's battleground day. we show ted cruz up double digits over donald trump, a real reversal from a month ago. part of it, ted cruz campaigning really hard in the badger state. we're in madison at a town hall. they're still setting up the event. they have the advance team here, getting everything set. i want to show you one of the signs up for ted cruz. wisconsin, jobs, freedom, and security. this is sort of ted cruz's refined message here in wisconsin. it's different for him than what we saw for example in iowa, come is a state he did well in, in utah, which he did well. it's a different type of conservative here in wisconsin. that's one of the key differentiators in the contest. the fact it's not so much these social conservative, the evangelical he's going after. it's more of a moderate kind of republican. that, plus the fact that wisconsin is an open primary, and typically, cruz has done
better in closed primary contests when it's republicans voting for republicans. when he gets ready for several stops today, i think he has four on the agenda, he's looking to do a couple things. number one, try to make the argument he's the one best positioned now in wisconsin to win this state. by the fact that he's going to argue he can bring together people from different demographics, people from different geographical areas as well. the other part, he needs to make the argument if he wins in wisconsin he can carry that momentum into states that vote down the road, like new york, like new jersey, connecticut and so on. the campaign says, hey, wisconsin looks more like michigan, which cruz lost, than iowa. if we can do well here, they believe they can do well in other places that may seem like more of a natural fit for donald trump. jose. >> let's talk more about north dakota. cruz added a stop to the capital there. clearly, that is causing some interest for all the campaigns. >> yeah, you talk about what happened north dakota over the
weekend. we'll see it again in colorado coming up. these are states where the unbound delegates are essential. they're kind of the belles of the ball when you head into cleveland. if candidates can lockdown support from the unbound delegates, it may help them if the race is close, if the delegate count is close in july, swing the race. what it also does if you look at places like arizona, what happened in louisiana, it allows cruz to show he's the one with the organization and ground game to swing the delegate slates and put boots on the ground when it comes to delegate strategy. this is important for the trump campaign. the trump campaign has staffed up on this. the kasich campaign, this is their only hope. they have no mathematical way to get the nomination via delegate count. cleveland is what they have. it's cleveland or bust for kasich, which is why the campaign is focusing on trying to pull in the delegates. when you talk to folks on the ground, particularly in north dakota, what you saw and heard from north dakota was a lot of energy and was a lot of discussion around the cruz campaign there.
>> hallie jackson, thank you very much. >> speaking of kasich, the other republican in the race, the ohio governor is campaigning in new york today, ahead of that state's primary on the 19th. with cruz and trump continuing to see him as somewhat of a spoiler, here's what trump had to say on sunday. >> kasich shouldn't be allowed to run. honestly, kasich should not be allowed to run. and i'll go opposite on you. he hurts trump much more than he hurts cruz. kasich shouldn't be allowed to continue. and the rnc shouldn't allow him to continue. >> nbc's kelly o'donnell is in long island with the kasich campaign. great seeing you. do you get a sense the governor is listening to that? >> no, perhaps john kasich will send donald trump the rule book for the rnc. they don't get to pick and choose the candidates. if that were the case, perhaps we never would have had a field of 17. so the strategy here is different. now, clearly, they are behind.
they know that. running third. it's not the place they would like to be. however, they're trying to turn things around a bit, saying to voters that if you cast a ballot for donald trump or ted cruz, that equates to a vote for hillary clinton in the fall. sort of turning the argument around, saying that john kasich, by virtue of being the republican governor of ohio, you can't get to the white house if you're a republican without ohio. with the kind of experience and temperament he has, that he's the right choice. also, of course, trying to make the argument that when the time comes to bring delegates to cleveland, that john kasich can make a case. what happens that is a bit different at some of the john kasich evens, he's really offering accessibility. this is a town hall setting, it is more intimate than the kind of crowds we see with donald trump, but he takes questions, answers them with detail. policy questions, and many voters ask how would he game it out in terms of campaign strategy. that comes up often.
and typically does talk to reportersefe day, trying to get his message out that way. so he is playing a different hand than perhaps the others, but it's one he believes can carry him to cleveland. and he hopes that there will be more and more attention turning to him if voters find that either donald trump's unpredictability or perhaps maybe the conservative rugidity that ted cruz shows might give them a chance to look to john kasich. the other part of it is if we're jumping ahead to pennsylvania, new york, these are places with john kasich believes he can do better. pennsylvania in particular, where he's polling close to donald trump. so that's favorable turf. when he talks about wisconsin, he doesn't really talk about the state. he talks about congressional districts like those near madison tomorrow, where he thinks he can pick up some delegates already looking to april 19th. jose. >> it just is interesting because when you talk about, he's going in with a different hand, that hand includes no
victories out right. zero. >> just ohio. his home state. which was his home state, but that's right, a hard case to make. that usually means you don't have a shot at the nomination. this is one of those years where the malth could be different when you get to tte convention. no one doubts it's hard case, but john kasich doesn't believe there's an argument to get out with fund-raising improving, he says, and with an outside pac who can also run ads and try to support him that way. no signs he's getting out, but he would like to see a better performance than he's had. ohio feels like long time ago, even though that was a solid win, an 11-point victory, but the state he governs. that's a bit different. he's hoping the northeast will give him a chance to show he's in this. >> thank you very much. great seeing you this monday. let me bring in jay newton small, washington correspondent for "time" magazine, and rick
tyler, former communications director for the ted cruz presidential campaign. thank you both for being with me. rick, just a thought here. is wisconsin a reflection of a surging cruz or a wounded trump? >> i think it's a little bit of both. probably more of a wounded trump. he's had a terrible two weeks. what's unique about wisconsin is, one, there's been this two-week length of time between the last election night and what's coming up on tuesday, and cruz has used that time to go throughout the state and make his case. he also understood the politicsoffs wisconsin where trump didn't seem to. when trump attacked scott walker, for instance, very popular governor with the republican party, that hurt him. it's a working-class blue-collar state by large part, and donald trump's message hasn't been resonating with him. cruz actually seemingly is living out the second part of his announcement speech where he talked about job growth and opportunity. trump continues to live out his
announcement speech, yet he seems to have gotten all the people who want to build the wall, who want to renegotiate trade deals, et cetera, that's why the marquette poll has showed trump virtually stuck for weeks and cruz has essentially gained about 20 points. so it looks like cruz will have the momentum coming out of wisconsin if he pulls it off, and i think he will. >> jay, when we look at the polls, wisconsin does seem like a place that is -- could be a prime place for stop trump and that movement. it just seems as though so far, all of the attempts to stop trump have not worked anywhere. is wisconsin possibly the place that's finally taking hold? >> exactly, jose. you know, we have declared trump dead so many times in the last year. it's sort of amazing. every time the establishment declared donald trump dead, he comes roaring back to life den. even in the beginning, calling mccain, saying he preferred
veterans who weren't captured by the enemy. you know, anything from the insults of megyn kelly to the insults to immigrants to muslims. every single time the establishment has declared him dead, and the establishment is declaring him dead. certainly, wisconsin will be an interesting test. he's down in the polls there. at the same time, he's managed to pull out all kinds of new voters in all of these contests, sometimes as many as 250%, 280% over 2008 voting which was the last time we had an open seat for the presidency. if he brings in all these new voters again in wisconsin, he could again pull it out. and that, i think, would certainly, as he has said, would pretty much end the race. we'll have to wait and see what happens in wisconsin. although i'm very leery of hearing yet again the establishment in washington saying trump is dead. >> and rick, you heard reince priebus on "meet the press," kind of stumble over whether it was delegates or actual republican voters who pick the nominee. break this down for us.
>> well, look, in the end, it's delegates. you're watching cruz do this. one thing i would say, though, is about trump is that now that we're down to essentially a two-person race, his antics have sort of maxed out. he can't go beyond anywhere he can, but look what cruz is doing. look what he's done in colorado, where he picked up the first six delegates there. it looks like he'll have almost a clean sweep in wyoming. that was a convention. he's picked up delegates, certainly on the second ballot in virginia, in louisiana, and in georgia. in fact, his whole goal now has to be to stop trump from getting the majority of delegates going into cleveland. if he does in fact do that, with 100 delegates who are unbound, by the way, john kasich has no chance to be on the first or second ballot. and the reason for that is both cruz and trump will control the rules committee. the rule right now is you have to win eight states. john kasich comes nowhere near that. if that rule is changed, as ari melber reported earlier, they're
going to write in a way that kasich won't be on the ballot. if they reject the rules in the convention, we go back to the old rules, 2012, and again, he'll need eight states to win. there's no chance that john kasich will be on the first or second ballot. therefore, that's why cruz has got to keep him from getting a majority. if he does that, i think there's a chance cruz could actually win on the first ballot. >> going to be very interesting to watch. >> certainly will. >> rick tyler and "time" magazine's jay newton small, thank you for being with me. >> i have bricking news for you right now, from the supreme court. i want to turn to justice correspondent pete williams. good morning. >> jose, good morning to you. the supreme court has rejected a challenge brought by conservative republicans in texas. they wanted the supreme court to say that the state was brakidra its boundaries for its legislative district should draw them based on the voting population, not the total population. the challenger said if you count the total population, that
dilutes their strength because it overcounts people who aren't registered to vote, which tend to be minorities. today, the supreme court rejected that claim. they said there's no basis in the constitution that requires states to use one method over another. they note when congress set up the way you apportion congressional districts, that was based on total population. and so this undercuts an attempt to basically dilute the voting power of hispanics and other minorities. interestingly, texas fought against the challengers, defended the state's use of total population. and if the challengers had won, it would have made a difference in states that have higher than typical minority populations. southern states, arizona, texas, new mexico, florida. so it's a loss to the challengers. it's based on the supreme court's one-man, one-vote rule. and interestingly, the vote of the court today was unanimous. all eight justices, two of them more conservative justices,
thomas and alito, wrote concurring opinions say they agree with the supreme court for a variety of reasons. the challengers here basically got no traction whatsoever with their idea. >> who were these challengers, pete? >> some conservative -- some conservative republicans were behind this effort. the challengers were voters in texas who lived in dwistricts that had a high minority population and they said their vote was diluted because there were so many people counted in the size of the legislative district that didn't actually vote. they couldn't have challenged the drawing of congressional districts because that is set by the constitution, but this was an attempt to undercut minority voting power in state legislatures. >> what a revolutionary concept, that everyone counts. whether you vote or not. pete williams, thank you very much. good seeing you this morning. coming up on the last day, full day of campaigning across wisconsin, the final fight before the primary. but will democrats be able to
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will you be ready when growth presents itself? realize your buying power at om the democratic candidates, most recently over scheduling and the debate ahead of the new york primary, but tomorrow, it's wisconsin's turn to vote. a new poll shows bernie sanders with a slight lead over democratic front-runner hillary clinton. he's hoping to get another victory following a three-state caucus sweep. so what's the clinton camp doing about this? chris jansing is at clinton field office in milwaukee. chris, good morning. what's the ground game there? >> busy. that's what i'll tell you. this is lot closer race than a lot of people expected at this point. early voting is over. that means it's time to make sure that the people who haven't voted get out tomorrow. this is where the action is.
part is still going door to door. john is here, talking to folks. he's been hand filling out some of these things that people would get in theirrdoors or be handed and some of that door knocking that happens. come in here. you can also have your picture taken by the way with hillary clinton. see, there you go. life size cutout of hillary clinton. this is the heart of the operation. they have a lot of people here for a monday morning. this is the phone bank, reminding people to get out, reminding people if they need a ride, they can get one that's totally focused on get out the vote. especially in milwaukee, because we know that madison is going to be strong for bernie sanders. this is an area where hillary clinton would like to run up her margins. joann, one of the folks who have -- i hope i'm not interrupting a call. has been making phone calls. this is the first time you volunteered for candidate. >> yes, it is. >> why hillary? >> i believe hillary is the best president we could ever have. she's so interested in everything. she's very for all kinds of
different people. she has the most experience. and i really believe she'll make the best president. >> this is a big commitment of time and effort. aad i don't think that phone calling is always that much fun. people hang up on you sometimes. >> absolutely. >> you get a lot of people who aren't there, you're leaving a lot of messages. why this time was the first time you felt motivated? what is it about what's going on in the country that makes you feel, i need to be really active in this? >> i believe she's the best candidate. i was at the founders day dinner over the weekend, and bernie and hillary were there, and it's clear she's the most knowledgeable. she has the most information. she really, when you see the two candidates together, you can really see that hillary is the one that we should be voting for. >> i'll let you get back to work. it's good she mentioned the founders day dinner. i was there as well. what was really interesting is the attacks on scott walker, the governor here, for the democrats that is red meat. you see here, the signs for a couple unions, the plumbers
fitters union, important here. not always, not as much as it was say when bill clinton ran for president, but scott walker, the governor here, who went after the unions is absolutely loathed by democrats. so hillary clinton has been using attack lines against scott walker very successfully here, jose. >> chris jansing, great to see you this morning. thanks. i want to turn to nbc's kristen welker at the javts center in new york city, where hillary clinton will be speaking less than an hour from now. good morning. >> hey, jose. good morning to you. as you were talking about at the top, there's been this debate over the debates with the democratic candidates, ahead of the primary here in new york. essentially senator sanders saying he wants a debate. the clinton campaign throwing out some dates. the sanders campaign throwing out some dates. and they just can't agree. now, i anticipate eventually they will agree on a debate. but jose, it underscores a couple points. first, the fact that this race is getting increasingly heated and increasingly competitive.
secondly, the senator sanders making the point, secretary clinton may be the front-runner, but she can't call all the shots. he has gained a lot of momentum in recent weeks with five straight wins. he's leading in the polls in wisconsin. he seems to be catching up to her a little bit in new york. she's still leading by double digits, but the clinton campaign feeling the pressure to hold on to her adopted home state here in new york, with senator sanders surging in recent days. jose. >> and then kristen, look, there's this incredible article in the "new york times" today, full of quotes from the sanders people, admitting they couldn't have -- they could have run a better campaign. tell us a little about this article today. >> a really stunning article, jose. gives us a little insight into the sanders campaign. the timing though, it comes as sanders is surging, as i just said. it seems to be almost admitting defeat. let me read you a key portion of the "new york times" article you cite. it says, quote, sanders was originally skeptical he could beat mrs. clinton and his
mission in 2015 was to spread his political message about a rigged america rather than do whatever it took to win the nomination. by the time he caught fire with voters this winter and personally began to believe he could beat mrs. clinton, she was aur already on her way to building an all but insurmountable lead. she's going to be really tough to beat if you look at the m matmatics of this. if you look back at some of the miscalculations on the part of the sanders campaign, it bears out what we're seeing in the article, the fact he hasn't brought up her e-mails, the fact he didn't do a good job of setting expectations for some of the states he lost. that has hurt him. having said that, the sanders team insists they still have a path to the nomination and wisconsin is going to be critical to that. jose. >> yeah, just really kind of unusual to watch people on record talk about the details of their campaign and what they could have done differently. kristen welker, great seeing
you. >> can hillary clinton stop sanders tomorrow? we'll talk with hillary clinton supporter, former congressman barney frank, next, right here on msnbc live. ♪ staying in rhythm... it's how i try to live... how i stay active. so i need nutrition... that won't weigh me e wn. for the nutrition you want without the calories you don't... try boost® 100 calories. each delicious snack size drink gives you... 25 vitamins and minerals and 10 grams of protein. and it's available in two new flavors, vanilla caramel and double chocolate fudge. i'm not about to swim in the slow lane. stay strong. stay active with boost®. her long day as anne. hair stylist starts with shoulder pain when...
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♪jake reese, "day to feel alive"♪ tomorrow's wisconsin primary marks a huge day in the democratic race. a single contest that could determine which candidates picks up crucial momentum heading into the april 19th primary in new york and the slate of races that follow a week later. i want to bring in former massachusetts democratic congressman, barney frank. a hillary clinton supporter. great to see you. >> thank you. >> let's talk about the contest tomorrow. the polls in wisconsin have been close. sanders usually a couple points ahead. if she loses, there's another two weeks before the next big primary in new york. how does she keep the momentum going during that time? >> momentum is a greatly overrated concept. hillary clinton had what many said was unstoppable momentum after super tuesday, and the
five big wins after that. and that was followed by sanders winning. you know, new yorkers have a certain about their own importance, the extent of which people in new york are deeply influenced by what happens in wisconsin is probably less and might ideally be the case in one nation. and the other thing about wisconsin is this. there tends to be in primaries an exaggeration of the question of who wins or loses. especially on the democratic side, where we sensibly don't have the winner take all. there have been several primary wins that were very close. hillary clinton won narrowly in iowa. narrowly in nevada. sanders won narrowly in michigan, the one big primary he's won. mostly this has been, and maybe tomorrow will change it, this has been two separate races. bernie sanders is the nominee of the caucuses. hillary clinton is the nominee of the primaries. one thing the democrats have to examine is the role of caucuses.
everything we complain about in terms of voter suppression, you get a caucus. it's a limited timm, they discriminate against people. >> you have to have a lot of enthusiasm. >> it's true, but it's tough for older people, for people who have jobs that don't allow them to take that many hours away. at any rate, in the situation now, hillary clinton has gotten more than 2 million more votes than bernie sanders, and she has a significant delegate lead, leaving aside the superdelegates. wisconsin won't change that very much. a narrow win one way other the other, doesn't change much in terms of delegates. if bernie sanders were to get a slight majority in every primary left, he would end up with fewer popular votes than hillary clinton and she would have the delegates. so yes, it's an important day, but you know, there are a series of absolutely critical days. to be honest, some of you in the media have a tendency to overrate the specific events you're covering.
if you look over time, it's ebbed and flowed and hasn't meant a great deal. >> i talked about enthusiasm with you. you had a very interesting interview with "slate" recently. you said you were disappointed with voter whose use their vote to express their anger and frustration with the political system. i'm particularly unimpressed, you said, with people who sat out the congressional elections of 2010 and 2014 and then they're angry at democrats because we haven't been able to produce public policies they like. they're the ones that contributed to the public policy problems and now they're blaming other people for their own failure to vote. the fact is that failure to vote really does cause a series of problems for a democracy. there's no question about it. why is it that you think so many people are enthusiastically supporting people like bernie sanders, people like donald trump? and i'm talking abiliout some people who in the past maybe weren't motivated to go out and vote? >> i think it's a lack of information, to be honest.
the fact is if you are seriously committed to a set of public policy goals, then you are voting all the time and you also, and i think this is part of it, you have people who don't understand frankly the nature of the american political system. it's a separation of powers. it takes, because of the constitution, not because of anybody individualual, maybe because of james madison, but nobody more recently, it takes two elections to get a governing majority in america. what happened is look, the people who decided i'm not going to vote, they haven't done anything i want, so they vote for obama in '08, the republicans in '10, the democrats re-elect obama in '12. not individual switching, but the electorate. th that's why we have gridlock. people don't understand that, and it is a case of people blaming a, quote, system. >> true -- >> when the system is simply the akumpulation of their own behavior. >> so the people that come out and they're actually motivated
to come out and vote you're telling me those are the ones who lack information. >> no, the ones who don't vote are the ones who lack information. >> what do you attribute to the fact that bernie sanders and trump on the other side have generated so much interest in people that haven't been the ones that particularly consistent in voting. >> first of all, understand that neither one has a majority, and actually, i'm afraid trump is collapsing more quickly than i would have hoped because he would have been a great one to run against. but hillary clinton has many more votes than sanders. what it is is the fact that people have a tendency to blame others for things that are their own fault. that's what you have. and i think it's a lack of information. there are people who are saying they're very enthused about sanders. again, far less on the democratic side than have voted for hillary clinton. she's way ahead of him in votes cast. you have people who because i think a lack of information and
a misunderstanding of the process, not having voted, people are reluctant to blame themselves. people like to find somebody else to blame, so they're saying, oh, sanders pointed out, it's the system's fault. i'll give you an example. if you look at the final polls right now, final election polls, sanders does better than clinton, a very simple reason for that. all of the clintp people when they're asked say they'll vote for sanders. because of this kind of lack of information, and i think misunderstanding of how you really get change done in america, a large chunk of the sanders people, a third, i saw recently quoted, say they won't vote for clinton. dha that's why he does better now. he gets all her supporters, she only gets a third of his. whether it's trump or cruz, they'll vote democratic in november. you have people who appeal to them, saying you can't be serious about this. so as i said, it is a misunderstanding. these are people who think, oh, well, obama. because actually if you look at what sanders is saying, he's far
more critical,ov objectively th hillary clinton. the secretary of state doesn't indict people. that's president obama. the health care bill, president obama. his fuel on the inadequacy of financial reform, president oba obama. you have people who don't understand how hard it is to make change. the importance of not just being idealist idealistic, but achieving your ideals, and sanders is getting their support. >> former congressman barney frank, a pleasure to see you. >> by the way, i reached out to a representative for the sanders campaign. they were unable to join us today. we're going to have them as soon as we can. up next, exclusive on msnbc, how donald trump and ted cruz are teaming up to keep kasich off the ballot at the gop convention in cleveland. so'm going to take this opportity to go off script. so if i wanna goo jersey and check out shotsy tuccerelli's rtfolio, what's it to you?
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kasich? it's a plot from both trump and cruz. trump even says kasich is taking his votes. >> kasich shouldn't be allowed to run. honestly, kasich should not be allowed to run. i mentioned it to the rnc. i said why is a guy allowed to run, all he's doing is goes from place to place and loses. and he keeps running. he doesn't have to run and take my votes. because he's taking my votes. he's not taking cruz's votes. he's taking my votes. >> and it goes beyond the campaign trail. msnbc has learned the trump and cruz campaigns are trying to block kasich from the ballot in an open convention. msnbc chief legal correspondent ari melber just filed that report online, and here he is. what is his logic? >> a two-man race could be better for both of the two front-runners. i spoke to aides for both trump and cruz who confirm they are working through their potential control of the convention to have the rules block kasich from the ballot. this is a sign that the open
convention is very real in the minds of these campaigns. when it comes to rules, it's sort of like that real world saying, people stop being polite and start being real. the rules are written first by delegates on a rules committee. you see that here. then that goes to the whole floor of the convention. so the delegates on the floor vote on those rules. and then you get your ballot basically, as long as there's some agreement and the candidates who qualify under the rules are there. if you don't qualify because the convention writes its own rules each cycle, if you don't qualify, you cannot be nominated and you have no chance of being president. let me show you what the kasich aides are saying. first, the delegate count, folks remember. trump is short but way in the lead. kasich, way behind. still less than marco rubio, by the way, who is not on here because he suspended his campaign, although he, too, trying to get his delegates. i spoke to kasich aides about this move that we're reporting here on msnbc. they say look, we'll be on the ballot. cruz is worried about a kasich
scenario at the convention, and charlie black, an experienced operative tells me the idea of limiting the ballot is a strategy to discredit kasich's campaign. the fact is every convention sets its own rules. i it can tell you that is certay true, so anything can happen. the argument i have unearthed from two campaigns that usually disagree on everything, cruz and trump, is they have an overlapping interest in getting the convention, which will have a lot of their delegates, to make it a two-man race. is there a legitimate or democracy argument here? sure, you have had a big race. all 50 states have voted. down to the top two, something of a photo finish. let it be the race between the top two. in politics, that's secondary to the political argument, which is they have the power. they're saying they're going to do this. >> let's see what happens. tyler was saying that the first two votes in a convention would probably block not even allow kasich either way, right?
>> that's what they're working on. the idea being in the early votes, you would structure the ballot to have two. and then you get into all the horse trading of who can win over whom, and if people are unbound, meaning more votes up for grabs, basic math, more votes up for grabs, who does that help? the ted cruz people think there's such an anti-trump momentum we have seen over the last few weeks, we thing it might help them more. >> very interesting to watch. msnbc's chief legal correspondent, ari melber, good to see you. >> thank you. >> i want to bring in former governor of wisconsin, scott mccollum, who is also supporting kasich. good to see you. >> good to be here. thank you. >> so what do you make of the efforts by trump and cruz to block kasich? >> one could say it's anti-democratic. the rules are the rules, and we'll see when it goes in. the republican convention ten times has gone to convention where the delegates decide who the candidate will be. abraham lincoln never would have been nominated had we gone with
the top one or two people with delegates going into the convention. we discussed the convention itself where the two, both cruz and trump are trying to prevent kasich from being even considered. but we also see in the state of wisconsin, which hasn't come out as much, several million dollars from both campaigns going in against kasich. i view both of them are concerned. you look at the most popular politician both on the least negatives the most positives, the public of america seem to want john kasich. it's how you get him on the ballot that's going to be difficult. >> but when he has been on the ballot, he hasn't done much so far, other than ohio. a latest poll shows kasich trailing behind cruz and trump in wisconsin. how does he deal with what is the obvious fact, he hasn't won other than ohio? >> well, he will win some of the congressional districts in wisconsin. >> but congressional districts aren't winning a state. >> yeah, and we will see.
we still have a number of eastern states coming up as well. and right now, john kasich is running ahead of cruz in those states. so maybe cruz ought to be the oneewho ought to get off the ticket if he wants to stop trump, get off the ticket and let it be one-on-one with the person who is most popular, who has the most favorable rating and the one republican, because when you get to convention, a lot of delegates are gaucoing t want to win against hillary clinton. the one person who is consistently showing they can draw in people from all sides, bring the country together, is john kasich. and a lot of people are running for office themselves, they're going to want somebody who can win that election and do well for the entire ticket. >> then there are the rules. the fact is there have been elections where, you know, the popular vote has been lost in the electorate vote has been won. so how do you go forward, and how do you convince, if you get to a convention where there is no, you know, outright winner, how do you convince those, those
electorate votes that the guy who came in third should be the guy that comes out first in the end? >> well, of the ten times it's gone to convention, where the delegates have decided in the history of the republican party, seven times the front-runner going in was not the nominee. again, the delegates are going to look at who would be a good president, first of all, and secondly, who can win, and who has the best ability to do that. right now, overwhelmingly, john kasich would be the winner. he has the ability to bring this country together, and delegates are going to look at that. >> governor, thank you very much for your time. appreciate you being with me this morning. >> thank you. >> ahead, jacob soboroff takes us to the birth place of the republican party, wisconsin schoolhouse where the gop was formed 162 years ago. how much is the republican party changed since then? that's a long winded question that we have a lot of answers for. and clean and real
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the battle is on for a republican candidate to win wisconsin's 42 delegates tomorrow, but did you know the party has incredible history in that state? it all began in a white schoolhouse in wisconsin in 1854. msnbc's jacob soboroff went there and asked voters what they thhnk of the candidates. jacob jones us from madison, wisconsin. good morning. >> good morning, jose. unbelievable history for the republican party here in the great state of wisconsin. and today, ted cruz in fact in just a little bit, will be sitting on the stage with megyn kelly for a fox news town hall to try to win every last vote of the republican party in wisconsin. the party was born here. i went to where it was born to find out what voters think about their party. believe it or not, this little white schoolhouse in ripon, wisconsin, is the birth place of the republican party. i have got to see what's going on inside. let's check this out. >> it was created in this room march 20th, 1854 when a group of
like minded individuals got together in opposition of slavery. >> they said we're opposed to sla slavery. we want to create the republican party. that's what we're going to name it. let's vote on it. there were democrats, there were whigs. >> and they said republicans raise your hand? >> pretty much. and it wasn't an easy vote. >> what's your name? >> terry. >> terry, i'm jacob. nice to meet you. >> nice to meet you. >> you are not from ripon, but you brought your family to check out the birth place of the republican party. >> we have some young republicans here. >> want to tell me who you're voting for? >> i think you're seeing wisconsin coalescing behind ted cruz right now. >> what about donald trump, would you see him walking in and feeling like a true republican to you? >> i could see him bull dozing down the school house. >> bull dozing down the schoolhouse. that's aggressive. >> i could see a new casino or hotel here maybe. >> i'm here because this is the birthplace of the republican party. and the pizza here is very delicious.
>> it apparently is. >> when you look at the republican party and the state of the party, you live in the home town of where the party came from. what's your take on what's going on in the party right now? >> wow. donald trump needs to back off. to me, he's splitting the party. >> you're a republican. youfr you're looking at the state of the republican party today, where the republican party was founded. are you happy with the republican party now? >> no, i'm not. >> why? >> i'm not happy with either party in our country. i think we should all take a step back and think of something new. >> what do you think when you look at the republican field here? >> it's sick. just frightening. just frightening. >> how does it feel knowing they came from this town, knowing you live here? >> it was a different time in 1854. you had the antecedents of the civil war coming in. >> sounds like you want the republicans to come back and take a history lesson at the school house. >> wouldn't that be nice? >> obviously, that last guy there was a democrat, but the
fact remains the party has changed quite a bit. big task ahead for ted cruz and donald trump if he juwantses to win here, is win over the republican voters at the town hall here and across the state over the next 24 hours. back to you. >> jacob soboroff, thank you very much. that wraps up this hour of msnbc live. thank you for the privilege of your time. tamron hall is up next. i'll see you tomorrow.
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meantime, donald trump now says john kasich is siphoning votes from him, and he is calling on governor kasich to drop out. >> if i didn't have kasich, i automatically win. he wants to get to the convention. that's okay. go to the convention and announce you want to be president, but you shouldn't be littering up the process. because that's what he's doing. it's really a disgrace, i'll tell you. >> this comes with a new wisconsin poll out just this morning showing ted cruz's lead over trump at five points. and john kasich by 19 points ahead of tomorrow's primary. the same poll showed cruz with a one-point lead over trump just two weeks ago. on the democratic side, the polls show senator sanders leads secretary clinton by eight points. two weeks ago, clinton was ahead by six points. leading up to tomorrow's vote in wisconsin, senator sanders is holding three events in wisconsin