tv MSNBC Live With Tamron Hall MSNBC April 18, 2016 8:00am-9:01am PDT
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good morning, everyone. i'm tamron hall coming to you live from brooklyn bridge park in new york where we are just a day before both parties hold their next presidential primary in this great state. all of the candidates except ted cruz are making their closing arguments at events throughout new york state today. the latest polling in new york shows donald trump and hillary clinton are firmly in the lead. despite clinton's double-digit lead, senator bernie sanders says he's optimistic that he can pull off a win in this state. the vermont senator who's coming off another massive rally, this time in brooklyn, appeared on the "today" show a few hours ago and suggested that the polls you're seeing could be wrong. >> the bottom line is let's look
at the real poll tomorrow. generally speaking polling has underestimated how we do in elections. we were 25 points down in michigan, we ended up winning michigan. >> on the republican side, donald trump is continuing to rail against the rnc and the party's nominating process after suffering more losses over the weekend in the delegate battle. he's now comparing the system to bribery and warning of what could happen if he is not the party's nominee. >> it's a corrupt system. you're basically buying these people. you're basically saying, delegate, listen, we're going to send you to mar-a-lago on a boeing 757, you're going to do this, you're going to do that, you're going to vote. that's a corrupt system. you go out, they're wining and dining, you have no idea what's going on with those delegates. that's a crooked process, folks. it's a dishonest process.
they have got to do something about it. republican national committee had better get going because i tell you what, you're going to have a rough july at that convention. >> all of this as trump loses more ground to cruz at wyoming's gop convention. cruz picking up 14 delegates, all of them that were up for grabs. and now cruz of course was the only candidate to appear in person in wyoming. he -- or this win in wyoming was just part of what politico describes as, quote, another delegate blood bath for donald trump this weekend. now he also lost more ground to cruz at local and statewide conventions in south carolina, kansas, virginia, florida and georgia. trump supporters were seen storming out of georgia's gop convention. they even grabbed the room's american flag on the way out. now trump's national delegate tells the "atlanta journal constitution" they are investigating concerns of delegate suppression in a few
congressional district conventions. appearing on "meet the press" reince priebus responded to trump's repeated allegations. >> there's no room for threatening the delegates or the convention or anybody that would be going to our national convention. but i also think some of this is rhetoric and hyperbole. the truth is that the delegates themselves are the ones that write the rules for the convention. the rnc doesn't write any rules. >> despite the rules, this morning our new nbc poll shows trump's argument is resonating with voters. 6 in 10 agree the candidate with the most votes should be the nominee even if they don't get a majority of delegates. nbc's katy tur joins us now from outside trump tower in new york city. obviously we know that the trump campaign is seeing that thez message is resonating of somehow the system potentially being rigged means we are not going to hear the end of this until we see the outcome of the convention when we all head to
cleveland. >> reporter: yeah, i don't think wee going to hear the end of it for a while. this has become one of the main talking points for donald trump, that the system is rigged, that it's unfair to an outsider and that basically someone like ted cruz, who's benefitting from this in donald trump's words, is trying to subvert the will of the people and disenfranchise voters. it's a message that works for him when it comes to his base of support that's resonating with them. oftentimes they're folks that feel like they have been left behind by washington, that they're not represented by washington, that the wool is being pulled over their eyes at times by even their local politicians. so donald trump is gaining support that way. that's why you're seeing these sometimes very big wins in primary states. he's supposed to win big here in new york and supposed to have a very friendly schedule for the next month when it comes to his primary schedule, certainly for the month of april. but at the same time, the delegates are the ones that he will need under the rules committee. under the rules of the rnc he
needs the delegates in order to secure the nomination. there's two ways of going about this. one get enough votes to get the delegates and two to get unbound delegates. there is a faction within the donald trump campaign that does feel they need to focus a little bit more on that. it's a faction that is newer to the campaign, more experienced, insider, people who have relationships with the establishment. there's corey lewandowski on one side who's been with donald trump since the beginning. he's one of the ones that are hammering away at the rnc, hammering away at the rules. then there's paul manafort and rick wiley who are veterans of campaigns. rick wiley ran scott walker's presidential campaign while he was still in this race and they're saying you can't alien 8 the rnc. you've got to work with the rnc if you get the nomination. if we get to 1237 we don't want to give them a reason to take away this nomination at the convention. so they are trying to thread the needle, walk a very thin line in
order to maintain their support, but also try and lure in those unbound delegates that frankly they will need most likely going into july. >> all right, katy, thank you very much. let's transition to ted cruz where as mentioned he outmaneuvered trump in the delegate count again over the weekend. wyoming, where he swept the republican convention and gained 20 delegates. with the latest poll, the texas senator is looking ahead for the following primaries. hallie jackson is in maryland with the latest on the cruz campaign. hallie as we report that senator cruz is looking forward to what's next, in all of the major polls out whether in pennsylvania or moving to california, he's behind. so what is he looking forward to? >> reporter: looking forward to picking up delegates. that's a great one and one that should be made is in current polling donald trump leads ted cruz.
cruz is trailing donald trump. that said, look at how some of these states deliver their delegates. even with a loss, even with, for example, a third place finish in, let's say, pennsylvania, the cruz campaign will point out they could still pick up half the delegates. same in california, 172 delegates at stake, but 53 congressional districts each with the same number of delegates available. so when you get into the strategy of it all, cruz does believe he can be a competitive force in some of these states moving forward, particularly not just pennsylvania, which is next tuesday, not just maryland where we are now but in indiana, what we've been calling the sleeper state. a potential battleground coming up on may 3rd. all of this said as a top campaign aide said to me recently, the hyperfocus on the convention strategy and the delegate strategy is interesting, but it means nothing, and i'm paraphrasing here, if donald trump locks up the number that he needs to get to the nomination. look at the math here. look at what happens if ted cruz falls to donald trump in new york and some of these other states. by our calculations if he only
picks up 5 or 6 delegates in new york, he would have a 98% chance -- i should say he would need 98% of the delegates to win up to lock up the nomination. so the math is not necessarily in cruz's favor, which is why the campaign essentially hoping to keep it close now and then close the deal if there is a contested convention in july. >> but hallie, to your point, yes, the math seems -- it is impossible for cruz to hit that number, but it's also incredibly challenging, in the high 50%, 58%, i think, for donald trump if you look at some of the latest numbers. so when the cruz campaign hears trump and others say he has the majority of people in that party voting for him and that senator cruz is banking on, you know, a more complicated process, how are they responding, especially as of late where in maryland where we are in new york and moving ahead he's so far behind with the people and not
necessarily the party leaders? >> reporter: and that's a fair point. it comes down to what we've been talking about which is the idea of emotion, this visceral message that donald trump says that says the system is unfair versus the process argument that ted cruz is putting out, saying, hey, delegates are delegates, the rules are the rules, the system is the system. when he picked up the wyoming 14 at-large delegates, he said in this is statement reacting to this, this is how elections are won in america. cruz has to make the case now to voters that this is what has happened in parties going back, you know, decades. i had a senator in wyoming say the same thing to me. since the '80s we've been picking delegates like this. this is how the rules are and how the system is in place. the cruz's argument to donald trump is if you don't like the system, don't be a part of it. that said, that may be a tough sell to voters given trump's very emotional message. i will point out a couple of interesting numbers in our nbc
news/wall street journal poll that just came out. 6 in 10 republican primary voters believe that whoever has the most delegates heading into a convention even if it's not a majority should go ahead and pick up the nomination. at the same time, 55% of republican voters said, hey, if ted cruz is able to pick up delegates and move forward and get the nomination, that would be acceptable to them. so it's kind of an interesting dichotomy here. >> yeah, it's what you want to pull from the poll. and we've seen that a lot. it's what fits your argument at the time in both donald trump and ted cruz can find something from these polls to fuel why they believe they should go on and be the eventual nominee. thank you so much, hallie. i want to transfer to yonkers, new york, where hillary clinton is speaking right now. let's listen. >> everyone who works hard in new york. and contrary to senator cruz, i think new york values are america's values and we want to stand up for those here in new
york and across the country. so i'm delighted to be here with you. i thank the hospital for letting me come by and i'm so pleased to have this chance to both see you and greet you and to ask for your support personally. it means the world to me to be back in new york campaigning, and i need your help to keep going and to make the case for the kind of country that we want for our children and our grandchildren. and since i have the most perfect granddaughter, i really care a lot about what happens to the future of our country, and i want every child, not just my grandchild, i want every child to have the same chance to live up to his or her god-given potential. so please come out and vote tomorrow. i will work hard for you. thank you all very much. >> hillary clinton at st. john's hospital in yonkers. we are also waiting to hear from
former president bill clinton. he's in buffalo, new york, planning to speak at a nursing home. they are still obviously focused on this state, even though polls show her with a double-digit lead. bernie sanders saying this morning on the "today" show that internal polling shows the race could be a lot closer than what we are reporting at this hour. and moving to the democrats and bernie sanders, he saw a huge rally last night in brooklyn, some 28,000 people turned out according to the campaign. that's the number of folks who came out to hear him at a rally in brooklyn yesterday. but the question is can that showing, can what you see on the ground there, turn into actual votes come tomorrow? kristen welker is standing by, she's been covering the hillary clinton for us. kristen, you know, it is interesting and i know, again, you cover a lot more of the clinton campaign, but when you look at the polls and you hear a candidate like senator sanders say, listen, there may be a
surprise given in some other races where we have seen a tighter race than what was projected in early polling, this perhaps is why we see bill clinton preparing to speak in buffalo, hillary clinton in yonkers. they're not easing up off the gas in this state. >> they're not at all, tamron. and that point that you make, i can tell you both campaigns are making heading into tomorrow, they both point to michigan. they say, hey, look, secretary clinton had a lead head sbog that race and senator sanders wound up pulling off a victory. from the perspective of the sanders campaign, they think they can still pull off if not a win, they think they can get closer within that ten-point margin than what we're seeing in the polls. the clinton campaign saying they're not taking anything for granted because of what happened in michigan. you're absolutely right, that is why you see bill clinton, secretary clinton, chelsea clinton barnstorming the state over the weekend. new york is critical and the margins are critical, tamron. if secretary clinton wins by double digits, that would make
it really difficult for senator sanders to come back and clinch the nomination. he'd have to win more than 70% of the delegates moving forward. that is a really steep climb. what we have seen in recent days, the rhetoric heating up between these two candidates and i anticipate we'll see that heading into tomorrow as well, tamron. >> kristen, thank you very much. going back to buffalo, new york, bill clinton is speaking right now. let's listen in. >> for president of the united states. and it really matters. you know, i'm very grateful to all the people standing up here with me for the work they have done and the support they have given to hillary. you have no idea how many times she still talks to me about the joy she got of being a senator from new york and going to places that many people had forgotten. buffalo, a lot of people had given up on. not now, it's a roaring success.
in syracuse, in watertown, in rochester and binghamton the last couple of days, and all the people that were there when she was a senator said, you know, she actually did stuff for us. the head of the farmers group on long island, he's been a life-time republican, endorsed her for re-election. i said i thought you were a republican. he said i do too. but he said all politicians sound great at election time. the only thing i know is she's the only one that ever did anything in washington to help our economy. so we're blesds now. we've got a great congressional delegation, great local leadership. you have a terrific governor who's oriented toward doing things. we're driving through buffalo from hillary's headquarters to you and i see all these really nice-looking houses. he said when you were in office and i was in hud, we poured the
money in here to give people more affordable, decent housing so they could have a good life. the big issue in this election is whether we're all going to rise together again, across regions and, yes, races and, yes, religions, but also across age groups. we've got to all rise together. we can beat this drug epidemic that's sweeping across our country, but we have to do it together. we can continue to be the strongest economy in the world and finally give everybody a pay raise, but we've all got to do it together. and that's why it's important that the president be a change maker, be somebody respected in the world that can protect our country and keep bad things from happening that could derail our recovery. i basically think if you've done a good job where you were before, that's what you were hired to do, but it is a good indication of future performance. and she's the only person you can vote for who from the time that she was in law school when i met her has been out there
trying to help people who were left out, left behind, forgotten, to empower them so we could all rise together. this whole election is about the american ideal, that we should all rise together. so you heard what the governor said, every vote counts here because it is more difficult to get a big vote in new york than any big state in the country because we have no local elections. like if the county executive was up for office and the congressman was up for office and the mayor and your representative in the assembly, i wouldn't worry about a huge vote because if you didn't vote, you'd have to look somebody you actually know in the face and say, oh, i let you down, i didn't show up. so we all show up. we need your help. you don't want to let america down. you don't want to let your children and grandchildren down. you want this to be about the future. we can come back all the way
now. and we need you. she needs you. you know, like i said, just think about this tomorrow when you wake up. she never stops talking about how much it meant to her to be a senator from new york and to find ways -- >> you're listening to bill clinton discuss how the former senator of new york, hillary clinton, was quite proud of her record in this state and reminding voters that it is important to get out like the rest of us. they saw bernie sanders' rallies, many of the rallies especially here in new york where tens of thousands of young voters have shown up, so it's a get out to vote effort there in buffalo with bill clinton. bernie sanders says the race tomorrow is a lot closer than public polls show, so how much of an edge does the campaign believe it has on hillary clinton? both in new york and moving forward. i'll talk with one of senator sanders' senior advisers.
plus money in politics. sanders supporters shower hillary clinton's motorcade with cash this weekend at a fund-raiser hosted by superstar george clooney. >> the sanders campaign when they talk about it is absolutely right. it's ridiculous that we should have this kind of money in politics, i agree. >> a spokesperson for the clinton campaign will join me to respond to that remark that went viral yet from george clooney. we'll be right back live from brooklyn after a short break. sim is growing at an alarming rate. growing fast, you say? we can't contain it any long... oh! you know, that reminds me of how geico's been the fastest-growing auto insurer for over 10 years straight. over ten years? mhm, geico's the company your friends and neighbors trust. and deservedly so. indeed. geico. expect great savings and a whole lot more.
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they want leadership to stand up to the billionaire class. that's what we are providing. >> that was senator sanders just this morning a few hours ago on the "today" show saying that the momentum is on his side. that despite recent polls that show him trailing hillary clinton by double digits in new york, his home state as well. joining me now, sanders campaign senior advisor tad devine. tad, thank you for joining us. >> good to be with you. >> what can you tell us about internal polling that gives senator sanders that confidence? >> i think what gives him the confidence is not so much poll bug what happens in state after state. we were 21 points behind in michigan and wound up winning there. as bernie says, if we can generate a huge turnout and get new people into the process. it's harder here in new york because obviously they know secretary clinton well, they don't let independents vote but we're going to try to have a huge turnout and hopefully find a way to victory. >> your campaign says that rally yesterday 28,000 people, your largest crowd to date here. it was noted on "morning joe" by
joe scarborough how the crowd has increased in time even though the delegate math is not on senator sanders side. his supporters believe that there's something still available to them, that he can if nothing else continue to dominate the conversation as it relates to money in politics. >> i think that's true. this issue of how we run our campaigns, as bernie calls it a corrupt system of campaign finance is resonating so power fully all across the country. people understand the obstacle to progress is because the special interests have taken over politics, particularly after the citizens united decision. he decided to get out of the system and run against it and i think it's resonating. >> what's interesting also, it's also resonating with donald trump and his supporters. this morning savannah and matt asked senator sanders that trump has tagged hillary clinton as corrupt hillary. senator sanders making the distinction he thinks the system is corrupt but he also says
she's benefitting from that system. so is he trying to have it both ways by not directly saying that he believes that she is corrupt? >> no, he isn't. he's known her for 25 years, he has enormous respect for her as a person and as a leader. >> well, he questions her judgment so that's not a lot of respect after that many years in politics that she's spent. >> well, he does question her judgment because of decisions like supporting the iraq war and decisions that she's made on the campaign finance issue, for example. but listen, he has decided he's not going to be part of that system. you can stay i'm against citizens united or i'm not going to participate in the process. i think bernie is leading by example. he's actually raised more money in the last three months than hillary clinton's campaign. that's a huge achievement. i think he's showing us a new way forward. >> the favorite word from the campaign, huge. what happens after new york if it's a double-digit victory for
hillary clinton? what happens to the campaign? what's the focus? >> the focus is five states next week. there are people in california, there are literally millions of people who have been part of our campaign, volunteering, contributing. they want the choice to vote for him and we're going to give them that chance. >> paul krugman said is mr. sanders -- walking away if he can't pull off an extraordinary upset and possibly putting ted cruz or donald trump in the white house. i was with a bernie sanders' supporter last night at dinner. she was very clear that it's a bernie or bust movement for her. what do you say to those supporters if senator sanders does not get the nomination. >> first, we think we can win. second, i would say to mr. krugman or the democrats that, listen, bernie sanders between now and the end in california and the district of columbia can bring in millions of new people
into the democratic party, young people who are registered to vote. look how many young people we had in wisconsin, more 18 to 29-year-olds than voters 65 plus. that's what we are trying to do is build a party. it's an enormous contribution and we should let him make it. >> will senator sanders raise more money for the party? i know he has on a limited basis. will he raise more money for the party? >> sure he will. >> why hasn't he so far? >> the joint fund-raising agreements that are going on right now and there's been a lot of reporting about this in the last few days, there are real serious issues attached to that fund-raising. he will but it will be done that keeps in place some of the safeguards we should have, like, for example, not taking money from lobbyists. so he'll do it but in a way that's constructive. >> tad devine, it's a pleasure. as hillary clinton as returned her focus to new york, her fund-raising in california this past weekend as drawn quite a bit of criticism.
on one of the events hosted by george and amal clooney, it cost a minimum of $33,000 to attend of the on nbc's "meet the press" george clooney agreed that that's too much money in politics that is being spent on these private dinners. here's what clooney said. >> i think it's an obscene amount of money. i think that we had some protesters last night when we pulled up in san francisco. and they're right to protest. they're absolutely right. it is an obscene amount of money. the sanders campaign when they talk about it is absolutely right. it's ridiculous that we should have this kind of money in politics, i agree. >> joining me now is christina shockey, hillary clinton's deputy communications director. thank you for joining us. you have a lot of people who heard george clooney and said with friends like that do you really need enemies? did that catch you by surprise? >> no, because hillary agrees with him. she's been forth right from the
beginning and she believes we have to do what we can to get the money out of politics. she said she'd work to overturn citizens united and she agrees with him. but until that happens, hillary is doing all she can to be competitive because the stakes are so high, not just for her but for other democrats in the race. she was out in california raising money. majority of that money is going to other democratic races because she knows it's not just important that we keep the white house, we've got to elect democrats at every level so we can make real progress for american families. >> obviously we're here in new york, as new yorkers like to say, they are straight shooters but i have to think texans think that too. let's say americans like straight shooters. there are many who will paraphrase what you just said that, yes, she's against the big money but while i can take it, let me take it. >> no, she's got to remain competitive. >> so bernie sanders' point is he remains competitive and he's not taking the money that she is. >> it's great and it's great that he's bringing so much
energy and enthusiasm into the race but she was out there working hard for other democrats. i actually met hillary for the first time in 1998 when she was first lady. she was in california raising money for a ballot initiative for early childhood development. that's who she is. she's always worked hard for oar democrats, she's always worked hard for causes she believes in and she's raising the money to help us win. >> the key part of if she is going to be the nominee and further success is the african-american vote. >> yes. >> particularly black women. >> yes. >> and in new york and throughout big cities, there's been a great conversation over the crime bill. you know that. >> yes. >> we've talked about it extensive extensively. this morning she was on an urban radio show, with primarily an african-american audience, and she was asked about that term, super predator. here's what happened on that radio show. let's play that. >> well, first of all, you know, i have said that i should not have used that word. you know, i was talking about drug gangs and traffickers and cartels, but it was a poor choice of words.
>> that shows the breakfast club, huge audience. the hosts remarkably engaged. i think in a lot of ways they represent some of the young people who don't necessarily view the clinton years as favorably as their parents. there he is with the answer again. is this going to be something we repeatedly hear her have to answer. >> it's something she's happy to get out there and answer and explain. as she said, it's a term she used once in the 1990s. it's not a term she's use again. but she's happy to get out there and talk about her record. when she was a united states senator, she worked really hard to reform the criminal justice system and she's the only candidate in this race who has a comprehensive plan to improve the lives of african-americans with real investments in youth employment and housing and one of her priorities, actually the first speech she gave in this campaign, was on criminal justice reform. so she's really proud to talk about her record and just as importantly to talk about what she'd do as president. >> i wish we had more time but i have to take my audience to breaking news. let me send our audience to news
out of israel. a bus as reportedly exploded in the center of jerusalem. israel's rescue service says now that at least right now 15 people have been wounded, two seriously. initial reporting suggests it may be terror-related. officials now say the bus may have been empty that caught fire. let's get the latest from an itn reporter. we're getting in some images now. what's the latest there? >> reporter: tamron, there are increasing indications that this bus explosion which happened about fit15, 20 minutes drive outside the very center of the city was due to a malfunction. at this time police here have refrained from labeling this incident as a militant or terrorist attack. usually such announcements are released a relatively short while after incidents like this.
there hasn't been an incident like this for 10 or 15 years. the bus where the explosion occurred was reportedly empty and the injuries were to the passengers of another bus which was nearby. i'm hearing reports there was some kind of fire which swept through the empty bus and may have affected the bus with the -- where the passengers were onboard. police have confirmed only that the circumstances are unclear at this time and a malfunction has not been ruled out. if this is confirmed as militant related and we're a long way from that right now, the indications at the moment are otherwise, then the incident would mark a rare and relatively sophisticated attack by militants inside israel, possibly hamas. the first of its kind to occur since, as i say, for around a decade. but right now the indications are point toward this is some kind of accident or malfunction.
so i would heed caution in our assessment of this right now. >> officials are pulling back from an earlier line that this possibly was a terror attack. they're now saying that it was an empty bus that caught fire and then spread to a populated bus next to it. so they are still investigating, but i'm just getting in this statement that officials are pulling back from the initial assertion that this was terror-related and now are looking at perhaps more of an empty bus fire that then spread to a populated bus near it. if we get more information on this, obviously we will update our audience. right now it remains under investigation, but it appears at this minute authorities are backing away from the initial report of a possible terror attack. we'll be right back. with the right steps,
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going to go into a contested convention, which means nobody has a majority. i'll have a ton of delegates, he'll have a ton of delegates. it's going to be a battle in cleveland to see who can get to the majority. you can't get the nomination without earning a majority of the delegates elected by the people. i believe donald's highest total will be on that first ballot and he will go steadily down, because donald cannot win and we don't want to nominate someone who's a loser in november. >> i want to take you now to some developing news. donald trump speaking live at trump tower in manhattan right now. let's listen in. he just finished speaking. before we went to that live shot from trump tower. ted cruz, that's who you were listening to, of course you know that, on "good morning america" laying out his plan for defeating donald trump at the republican national convention.
i'm joined by former candidate for new york governor, carl palladina. sir, thanks for your time. >> thank you, tamron. >> absolutely. let's talk a little bit about what donald trump's strategy is right now. part of it, yes, is resonating with the people of the party who say that the majority of them want the nominee to be the person who gets the majority of the votes. they do not want it to be someone who's brought in, as it was rumored before, with paul ryan. let me play a little caveat here from reince priebus on "meet the press." let's play that. >> if donald trump -- if he was winning the majority of votes, he'd likely have the majority of delegates, but that's not actually what's happening. he's winning a plurality of votes and he as a plurality of delegates. under the rules and concept of this country, a majority rules on everything. majority rules on the electoral college, majority rules at the
dnc, the rnc, and i don't know too many places majority doesn't rule. >> so the majority rules. do you buy what chairman priebus is saying there? >> well, in his little skirt on words, what he's forgetting is, yes, the people, for instance, in new york will vote in their individual congressional district and the majority will take all three delegates in that district. but the delegates are being chosen by the establishment, by the establishment party people, and those delegates are obligated to hold for the first vote if trump is the winner, then they're obligated to vote for him then. on the second vote, they're not necessarily obligated. so what you're seeing the
appointment of delegates who are inclined for other candidates and not necessarily for donald trump. that's the fallacy of this entire mess that donald trump has pointed out. what we're seeing is that historically the people have never really had a choice in who was picked to be president. >> that's the very point. the point that you're making is exactly what reince priebus and others are making, that the system has not changed. if you want to go to a grander scale and you look at gore versus bush, this is the same argument that people on the other side made regarding popular vote, the electoral college. this is nothing new. but the level of what ted cruz calls whining and not winning from the trump campaign, that's the only part of this equation that perhaps is changing. go ahead. >> i think what donald trump is point out is that historically
these rules have become so skewed that the people really never have a choice. i don't think he's trying to isolate it to the present. yes, he has been playing by the rules and fully expects to get to 1237 delegates and we're going to allow that to happen because we're going to take at least 85 if not more delegates in new york state. >> but when the candidate says things like the delegates are for sale, that if you give them, you know, a trip here or there and some of the massaging that goes on behind the scenes, isn't that at all dangerous territory? perhaps some of those delegates just don't believe in him as a candidate. if a delegate does not should port trump, then they are on the take. >> well, i think mr. cruz is playing that game.
he's out there buying delegates and buying their votes. i'm not sure that that's fair. i don't think the american people look at it as fair. i think what the american people want, and especially in this -- this is not really an election, this is a political revolution that we're experiencing now. and the american people are saying that they expect that their choice will be the nominee and ultimately the president of the united states. to marginalize that by using the same old rules that the republicans and the democrats for that matter have used is exactly what the establishment wanted to do so as to protect their incumbency and it's not good. it's not good for the nation. >> you've been a party leader in what is considered one of the greatest states in our country. did you complain about the rules before? did you see them as unfair before you joined the trump campaign? were you vocal about some of these things that have been in place for some time?
>> when i -- when i appeared at the republican convention in 2010 as a candidate for governor, ed koch denied me the opportunity to get up and speak before the convention voted on who they were going to nominate. that was very, very unfair. i skirted that by taking the proxy of one of the delegates to the convention and nominating myself, there by having an opportunity to give a speech. yes, the rules stink. they stink to high heaven. we play by the rules, just as donald trump has played by the rules up until now and will continue to do so. >> i think that's the line of the day, the rules stink. well, they have been stinking a long time then because they have been around and we'll see how this all shakes out. greaty appreciate you joining us and sorry for the delay. >> thank you. >> thank you so much. let's get to the breaking news from the supreme court right now. again, we apologize for that delay there.
the court just finished hearing oral arguments on an issue that certainly has come up significantly in this presidential race. president obama's immigration policy, pete is standing by with the very latest. pete, what can you tell us? >> reporter: tamron, in order for the administration to win here today, they have to have at least five votes. frankly it did not look to me like there are five votes. from all appearances so far, and of course we don't know what's going to happen when the justices get behind closed doors and start talking about how to write this decision, but it did not appear from the argument that there are five votes for the administration. so there's a very real prospect here that it could be a 4-4 tie. that would be a loss for the administration because it would leave everything standing the way it is. it would leave a lower court decision in place that upheld a stay or an injunction on enforcing this law. it's not ever been enforced ever since the president announced it in november of 2014. so they'd have to get five votes
either to say that texas and the other states didn't have the right to sue and there didn't seem to be five votes for that. although again, we don't know how this is eventually going to come out. and there would also have to be five votes for whether the president had the authority to do this. there may be five votes for that, it wasn't clear. but i still think that the totality of listening to the last 90 minutes is there's a very real prospect here of a 4-4 tie, which is a possibility with a court of only eight justices. >> and at the heart of this legislation that's under dispute, pete, it would allow immigrants who enter the country illegally to remain if they meet certain residency requirements and have children who are american citizens and that would shield some 4 million people from deportation. as i mentioned, the dialogue and rhetoric that we've heard on the campaign trail, there's been a heavy focus on that. i hear some sounds coming from i
believe behind where you are right now? >> yeah, there's a big crowd here, very strong passions on both sides because there is so much at stake. the states say, texas and the other 25 states that are opposing this policy say they understand the administration's argument that with 11 million people here illegally, there's no way to deport them all so you have to set priorities. the states don't really object to that. what they say is that everything that flows from that. that the administration wants to say, okay, since we promise we're not going to remove you for at least three years, we'll allow you to get work permits, we'll allow you to qualify for social security. that's what the states say the president can't do. they say only congress can give that kind of blanket authority for work permits and other social benefits. now, in addition, texas makes another argument here. texas says it has the right to sue because it would cost so much money to issue driver's licenses to all the people who would be able to stay. that got a kind of a mixed response from the court. it didn't seem to bowl them
over. but the point is i didn't count five votes that said texas was wrong and that's the administration's problem here. >> all right, pete williams live for us at the supreme court. thank you very much, pete, for the latest update from there. back in a minute and back to presidential politics, the battle to win upstate new york. so the region playing a key role for both democrats and republicans in tomorrow's primary. tony is on deck with what upstate voters are saying when we come right back. it's a drone you control with your brain, which controls your thumbs, which control this joystick. no, i'm actually over at the ge booth. we're creating the operating system for industry. it's called predix. it's gonna change the way the world works. ok, i'm telling my brain to tell the drone to get you a copy of my resume. umm, maybe keep your hands on the controller. look out!! ohhhhhhhhhh... you know what, i'm just gonna email it to you. yeah that's probably safer.
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today donald trump will hold a rally. tl regi the region is a big part of the state. in the buffalo area, pivotal for both campaigns to rain the delegates they need to win. msnbc's tony dokoupil , with doub double digit leads right now. it is interesting of insights you are gathering there. >> reporter: i am in the garage of the windshield wiper on the buffalo medical campus. this is not the buffalo you may know. hillary clinton brought a lot of energy this this place and $10 million helped to develop it. jobs are going up in this location. here is the issue here. this is the fascinating dynamic. she brought young people to buffalo and a key change in the demographic here. those young people came and they
are not necessarily hillary clinton voters. donald trump has been going around in the state with a doom's day scenario talking about job loss. we got a foose ball table here. here, home prices are going up and jobs. >> here in buffalo, maybe a birdie scenario, tamron. >> it is interesting when you look at going back to the comparison to brooklyn where we are, tony, we got a rally of 28,000 people and bernie sanderss is down to double digits. when you go to upstate, it is insight full and why his campaign feels they are not out of this. that pocket you are focusing on maybe their bright spot tomorrow. >> reporter: well, tamron, it is really not too little of a pocket. it is a dead heat, it is 50/50.
we'll be at a big polling station tomorrow where it is unclear whether hillary clinton or bernie sanders will emerge as a victor. >> all right, tony, great reporting as always. tomorrow is a big day for new york state. our live coverage in the empire state begins tomorrow evening at 5:00 p.m. southeastern time right here on msnbc. that does it for this hour. thank you very much for joining us as we continue to come to you live from jane's carousel. a beautiful place if you have a chance to visit. remember you can see me everyday at 11:00 a.m. southeastern time, we'll be back here live tomorrow from new york and soon after we hit the road heading to pennsylvania. up next, andrew mitchell's reports.
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we have crooked hillary. she's been crooked from the beginning and to think that she has a shot at being our president, crooked hillary clinton. we cannot let it happen. >> i don't respond to donald trump and his string of insults about me. i can take care of myself. he can say whatever he wants to say. i really could careless. >> homecoming king. bernie sanders breaking his record bringing in 20,000 plus people last night. >> you cannot have a superpac raised many millions of dollars from wall street or special
interests and then tell the american people with a straight face that you are going to stand up to the big money interest. not true. [ cheers ] >> hillary clinton raising money with big stars and facing our top numbers of new polls. and "snl" taking slices on bernie sanders' new interest. >> how are you going to break up the big bank break up? >> how? >> i will have a nice fix in the white house' gym as gym and i w to the bank and sit it down and yada-yada, they'll be broken up. >> you cannot