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tv   MSNBC Live  MSNBC  July 7, 2016 12:00pm-1:01pm PDT

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went very well. he was in there to show that he could work with republicans. he was donald trump, he was on stage. he was humorous, sarcastic, and showed certain knowledge of the issues. but more than that, again, he showed that he was willing to and wanted to work with paul ryan, with the house republicans. he spoke for about 45 minutes, then i would say he answered questions for at least another half hour or so, maybe longer. and again, there was no antagonism in the room, there was no intention. i understand that it did not go as well in the senate. but certainly in the house, i would say that that meeting was far above what i expected it to be, as far as the good feeling, as far as the commonality and as far as uniting behind the fact that it's important that we defeat hillary clinton and the supreme court. the supreme court was the issue he's stretching the most in the issue of his presentation, how the next president could appoint three or four judges, which would shape the future of the
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nature for the next 30 or 40 years. >> and you mentioned the senate meeting. it truly did not go well. he more or less predicted senator flake would go down to defeat. senator flake had to remind him he's not on the ballot this year. he called out senator kirk from illinois and one other. that sounds like some damage control is going to have to be rolled out. is this part of, has this been part of the problem as mainstream republicans see it, with the presumptive nominee. >> i'm surprised to hear what you're saying about the senate. it was so different in the house. there were a number of people who did stand up who had legitimate objections and questions to donald trump. he took it in stride, answered them well. he said he wanted to work with them. there were questions on trade, there were questions on immigration from congressmen from districts where they felt donald trump was hurting them. he was very positive in his
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response and very embracing and reaching out. after the meeting was over, he hung around and posed for pictures with everyone. his daughter, ivanka was there. it was not a lovefest, a lot of tough politicians in that room, but there was really a general agreement, we have to stand together and we have to run a united campaign. now, what happened in the senate? again, that's the type that we have to try to avoid, if that's what happened. because we have such a clear message. when comey was on there today and basically he was defending why he didn't indict hillary clinton, but not at all backing away from the fact that her conduct was inexcusable. that should be what we're focusing on, from now to november. you talking about a one 30-second ad, there are probably five or six different 30-second ads you can get out of what comey said about hillary clinton and that's enough to keep the campaign going for the next four months. and in addition to that, donald trump, it's important he stay on message and be focused.
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>> congressman peter king, veteran in the new york delegation. congressman, thank you very much for joining us today. >> thank you, brian. >> from the u.s. capitol. to recap for folk s just joinin us, we have witnessed, again, give or take, 4 hours and 36 minutes, unprecedented, the fbi director in in front of a committee of the house. and at times withering questioning, all to defend his finding of great carelessness on the part of hillary clinton, but no chargeable criminality. at the same time, we've had this visit to capitol hill by donald trump, spending time with republican delegation in the house and later the senate with two apparently different results. and another undercurrent, part of the story we'll be following for the rest of the day and for some time that actually entered the hearing with comey, and that is the deaths of these two
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african-american men in two different states, two different circumstances, what they have in common is both of them call into question police tactics. both of them were more or less recorded on electronic devices, with the result for all to see. that sets the table for the extraordinary amount of news we will be covering this afternoon and on through the evening. and to take over the next hour, kate snow standing by. kate? >> brian, thanks so much. and we will begin right there on this very busy news day, as brian says, if you've been with us, it's been more than four hours now of testimony from fbi director james comey, defending his decision to not charge lick over the use of her private e-mail server. but as brian also mentioned, during those hearings, several lawmakers pivoted to another law enforcement issue. news today that has captured so many, far beyond capitol hill. >> this morning i woke up to my wife literally crying, watching
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the tape of this guy, alton sterling in baton rouge, and then she looked at the one near minneapolis. and i hope you watched them. there's something wrong with this picture 7 >> the man he is talking about, a 32-year-old man was shot and killed by police, while he was in the car with his girlfriend, diamond reynolds and her 4-year-old daughter. reynolds used her cell phone to capture the moments following the shooting live on facebook. the contents of this video have not been independently confirmed by nbc news and he want to warn you, the video is disturbing. >> he's licensed, he's carrying stay with me. we got pulled over for a busted taillight in the back and the police just -- he's -- he's covered. they killed my boyfriend. he's licensed. he's carry -- he's license to
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carry. he was trying to get out his i.d. and his wallet out of his pocket and he let the officer know that he was -- that he had a firearm and he was reaching for his wallet. and the officer just shot him in his arm. we're waiting -- >> keep your hands where i -- >> i will, sir. >> he just shot his arm off. we got pulled over on -- >> i told him not to reach for it! i told him to get his hand up! >> you told him to get his i.d., sir. his driver's license. >> oh, my god, please don't tell me he's dead. please don't told me my boyfriend just went like that. >> keep my hands where you are? >> yes, sir, i'll keep my hands where they are. please, jesus, don't tell me that he's gone. >> today, minnesota governor mark dayton asked for the justice department to investigate that case, and we just learned the governor will be giving a briefing, just about an hour from now, 4:00 p.m. eastern time.
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we, of course, will bring that to you live when it happens. c castile's girlfriend was at the governor's mansion a little earlier today. >> i did it so that the world knows that these police are not here to protect and serve! they are here to assassinate us! >> yes, they are! >> they are here to kill us! because we are black. we don't support each other enough, so they feel like they can take us off. >> and moments ago, president obama writing that he was deeply disturbed by the castile incident, brig on facebook, all americans should recognize the anger, frustration, and grief that so many americans are feeling. feelings that are being expressed in peaceful protests and vigils. michelle and i share those feelings. rather than fall into a predictable pattern of division and political posturing, let's reflect on what we can do better. let's come together as a nation and keep faith with one another in order to ensure a future where all of our children know that their lives matter. that from the president.
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earlier today, filandro castile's mother and sister shot down for an interview with us here at msnbc news. here's a portion of what they shared. >> my son was a good man. he was really laid back. he worked five days a week at the elementary school. and when he get out of work, he would go home and play a game. play video games. he was not a gangbanger. he did not go out to clubs and party. he didn't do anything of that nature. and i taught him better, so i'm not understanding how all this unfolded from the very beginning, because he had a right under the law of minnesota to carry a concealed weapon. >> and it sounds like he informed the officer that he did have a weapon. >> absolutely. >> first thing. >> absolutely. because that's what i told him. i said, the first thing you do if you get stopped by the police, you inform them that you
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have a weapon, if you have it on you. and comply. whatever they ask you to do, do it. comply, comply, comply. that was my main issue, because you stand a better chance of coming out alive rather than getting shot by not complying. so, what is the difference in complying and then you get killed anyway? >> it was just the overflow of emotions, because it's just like, it's live so -- i'm watching him fight -- >> watching him fight for his life. >> and i'm trying to tell her to go faster. i'm trying to get them -- they just took away my baby from me. like, that was my older brother, but i was always the little big sister. he's my best friend. and i couldn't do nothing. i couldn't -- i couldn't save
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him. i couldn't do anything. and i'm just sad. i didn't want to watch another person get killed on camera because the man that just got killed in baton rouge and then hours later, they're calling me and i'm seeing my brother on facebook just laying there and the officer -- i don't hear him calling for an ambulance he's just still sitting there with his gun pointed at my brother while he's gasping for air, while he's just bleeding. why weren't you applying pressure for the wounds? why weren't you calling for an ambulance? like i don't understand. i don't understand what he -- what he -- i don't understand. i don't understand. but they took a really good person. he was as gentle as a bluebird. >> with me now from minneapolis, nbc's blake mccoy. blake, so difficult to watch that interview. i want you to talk first of all about this man, about philando
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castile. war you learning about who he was? he worked at a school. what can you tell us people are saying about him? >> reporter: people say he was a great guy, he worked at a school, 32 years old. he was a cafeteria worker. and we heard that he would give kids extra graham crackers as they came through the line. he had worked at the school for about ten years and two years ago he was proposed to be the cafeteria supervisor at that school. it's a predominantly white school and they're coming out today to rally behind him. everyone very upset and emotional about what happened. in fact, they're planning a demonstration of their own after school gets out this afternoon around 5:00. behind me, right now, you can see demonstrations that have been beginning on all day long. this is the governor's mansion here in minnesota. people came to the gates of the governor's mansion. they hung that sign that says justice for philando.
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they wrapped the governor mansion's fence in police tape. they want his attention. and you know what, it worked. because they got it. it was a remarkable scene around 11:00 this morning. the governor and lieutenant governor actually came out of the mansion and stood with demonstrators as representatives from the naacp and black lives matter spoke to the crowd, sometimes during that speaking, it became quite hostile towards the governor. one of those demonstrators even looking at him and saying, you, sir, are a white supremacist for not doing more to protect black lives in this city. they were yelling at him and in his face. they were very angry here. the governor kept his cool and apologized directly to the fiancee. he said he is shocked and horrified about what has happened and he is vowing that justice will be served here in minnesota. he has requested a federal justice department to step in. we're still waiting to hear if that happens. but the governor says he will take action. also speaking to this crowd today, that fiancee you did hear a bit from earlier. let's take a listen to what she
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said. she's the one who took the video and was sitting next to philando castile in that car. >> it's not right! it's not right. these police should not be able to just bear arms on innocent people, in front of kids! my daughter will be forever scarred by what the police of falcon heights did to us. for no apparent reason. they asked him for identification! and before they gave him a chance to get it, they beared arms on him. he took his last breath in front of us. where he died on the scene. lord, please -- >> the supreme courts as well! because they just requested fourth amendment right s. >> it's not fair. they giving all these people these authorities, the right to
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kill us! it could have been you! it could have been you! it could have been you or you or you! it could have been any of us. i want justice! he should not be home with his family. he should be somewhere in jail handcuffed. they took me to jail. they didn't feed us. they didn't give us water. they took everything from me. they put me in a room and separated me from my child. they treated me like a prisoner. they treated me like i did this to me. i didn't. they did this to us. they took a black man away. he worked for st. paul public schools. he never had a criminal record. he never did anything. no gang affiliated, nothing. he was a hard-working man. his birthday is in nine days. they took him nine days before his 35th birthday.
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>> st. anthony police here in minnesota, they handle policing for the small town of falcon heights. they gave a statement immediately after the shooting last night. it was a very brief statement saying they are investigating and that they believe the officer involved has been with the department for about five years. that's all they've said. so we have not been able to question them extensively on all of the claims that you are hearing from that fiancee. but, kate, it is an emotionally charged day here in minnesota, and one that promises to be emotional and tense, into the night, and into the weekend, because protesters here say they will not stop until justice is served. >> to say the least, emotional. blake, thank you so much. and joining me now, ari melber, our chief legal correspondent for msnbc. and ari, you and i were just handed some more information about the background of this man. he had some encounters in the past, with law enforcement. >> right. anytime you have an interaction like this, one of the questions, of course, is what did police know and what were they thinking. and reporting here by our nbc
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investigative unit finds that there weren't any violent crimes or that kind of history that might have given police a reason to be worried about violence in terms of what they knew before the interaction. indeed, there was a slew of driving offenses, such as driving without insurance, speeding, muffler violation, so this was an individual who had a lot of speeding tickets, which may have contributed to the -- >> traffic tickets. >> traffic tickets, speeding, et cetera, traffic violations, charged 31 times since 2002 for those traffic-related misdemeanors. the question, though, in an incident like this, in the video is so difficult to watch, as a human being, separate from a journalistic or legal analysis. the big question in this, as in others, the question is, is this justified use of force, which is a big legal question that isn't always answerable with the fact that we have, or there some predilection, right, to use more force than necessary in certain instances. >> let me ask about what we know. the facts of what we know.
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and as you say, that's the third time i've seen the video. and it's hard not to cry watching that video. but you hear the girlfriend say, you asked for his license. he was reaching for his license. he told you he had a gun. he has a permit. so according to the girlfriend, he established with this police officer that he was carrying a weapon and that he was armed. what's supposed to happen next, generally speaking? >> well, in a typical policing scenario where an individual is armed, whether they are armed lawfully because they're licensed or say they're an off-duty officer or even if they're armed but it's a crime, the policing prosecute is to say, all right, hands up, hands where you can see them, don't move them. and in the video, we can see the officer with the gun drawn. >> this is after the fact. >> so we don't know what happened in the moments before. >> but the proper police mechanism would be to ask for that and the compliance with that would not be to reach or make sudden motions but to keep your hands up and go from there. i will say, the girlfriend said, quote, the officer said, don't
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move as he was putting his hands back up, that's her claim. the officer then shot him in the arm four or five times. the officers who we've heard very little from at this juncture may have a different version of events. we do know if there is the presence of a weapon, that is one of the triggering factors for officers to potentially draw their weapons or be in a use of force scenario. the question here is, did something spin out of control where basically you're now decedent, the person who's dead, your suspect, yuz not reaching for a weapon and was shot anywhere. or as the police may investigation, was there some attempt of a live action scenario. those are the legal questions when you look at something like this. >> ari melber, thanks so much. as we mentioned earlier at 4:00 eastern time, 45 minutes from now, we do expect to hear from the governor of the state of minnesota, so stay us. we'll be back after a quick break. (vo) stank face.
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the shooting in minnesota that we've been talking to you about came to light just as hundreds of people were gathering last night for a candlelight vigil in baton rouge, louisiana, outside the convenience store where alton sterling was killed by police early tuesday morning. the department of justice in investigating that incident, and now we're getting a new look at what happened there from video shot by the owner of the convenience store. nbc's tammy leitner is there for us. she joins us now with more. tammy, explain what this new video is. >> reporter: well, the new video was shot by the owner of this store here. he was actually working at the time. and he said he saw a commotion going on, he came outside, and that's when he grabbed his cell phone and shot the video. it's much too graphic for us to show you the entire vehicle, but you do see alton sterling get shot, it looks like six times in that. there have been people out here all day showing their support. there have been impromptu news
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conferences all day. earlier, there was one held by some community religious leaders. and they're asking that the department of justice do more than just a civil rights investigation. they want a criminal investigation into this shooting. let's go ahead and listen to what they said earlier today. it's unclear if that will happen and if the department of justice will launch a criminal investigation at some point. kate? >> okay, tammy, we didn't hear the sound there. do you want to summarize what they said? >> reporter: right. they were just asking that there is more than just a civil rights investigation. that obviously happened very quickly. it's unusual for the department of justice to get involved this quickly. they got involved within 24 hours of this shooting, and so there is still a possibility that a criminal investigation could come further down the line. that's what these community religious leaders are asking for. >> all right. tammy leitner in baton rouge.
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tammy, thank you. so two fatal police shootings within the span of two days. let's turn to mark claxton. he's a retired nypd detective and the director of the black law enforcement alliance. nice of you to be with us. thanks so much. >> thank you, kate. let me start with your years of experience, and all you know, as you look at, first, let's start with minnesota and what happened there. your thoughts? >> troubling, disturbing, disgusting. and quite possibly, avoidable, as are many other fatal police encounters that we've -- that have made national headlines over the past several years. i think there needs to be, yes, a discussion about whether it was justified or not justified, but beyond that discussion, we need to really deal with and address whether or not you have police officers across this nation who are creating a perfect storm, if you will, for these type of fatal police encounters to occur. and that's a matter of what is
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often referred to as officer-created jeopardy. and we also have to be honest about and examine the role that race plays in the enforcement of laws by police officers. >> i want to ask you a delicate question about that. when you look at the situation in minnesota and you see that clearly a white officer, looks to be a caucasian officer, looks to be standing outside the window with a gun drawn, do you think things might have been different if it were a white man who had a concealed weapon, who said, i have a weapon? >> i think so. if you look a lot of the information skpefd, the data. a week and a half ago, after jesse williams said at the awards shows made the point perfectly and said, there is obvious data that the police will disarm, will de-escalate and not kill white people. so we need to make sure whatever they're applying in those situations are applied equally
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across the board. so i think there is evidence to support that the man in which policing is done in communities of color, black, latino communities, and other communities, is vastly different. but most importantly, let's not be afraid to examine this. let's not be afraid to discuss it. we need to address this, because it's a matter of life and death. and many of these instances, many of these encounters are avoidable when you go back and we hate to monday morning quarterback, but if you go back and examine the whole slew of these encounters, you'll find that there was a point, there was a period and an opportunity for de-escalation to avoid fatal police shootings. >> we're seeing so much more than we used to see with the cell phone videos. and i wonder your opinion on the police cameras, because in baton rouge, they were wearing body cameras, and local authorities there had said they slipped off. the aclu says serious questions need to be asked about that. do you agree? >> well, absolutely.
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i mean, my organization and many people across the country are in support of body cameras and other technology that can be used to assist in the enforcement of law and ensure constitutional protections, et cetera. but we can't fool ourselves into believing or thinking that body cameras or other useful technology items will decrease the frequency in which you have these fatal encounters with police, of young black men, often times unarmed, sometimes not unarmed, as was the case in minnesota here. but you can't think that those technologies will make a difference. there needs to be a more progressive and comprehensive approach to addressing ka changing the police model from data-driven, wroir-driven policing and more to a community service, a public service model. and once again, we have to have
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a discussion and face the realities about the role that race plays in law enforcement. and that includes whether they be a black or latino police officer or white police officer, because it's a culture of law enforcement that is having the most significant impact. >> mark claxton, retired nypd detective, director of the black law enforcement alliance, thank you so much for your perspective. glad you were here. >> thank you. up next, we head to capitol hill, where fbi director james comey just wrapped up over four hours of testimony, grilled by republicans on his decision not to charge hillary clinton with a crime for using a private e-mail server while she was secretary of state. ♪ ♪ take on the unexpected with a car that could stop for you. nissan safety shield technologies,
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bureau's decision not recommending charges for hillary clinton over her e-mail controversy. it was a punch, counter punch affair, a tug-of-war between democrats and republicans, with director comey right in the middle. >> we're mystified and confused. >> they've turned political investigations into an art form. >> my phone has been ringing off the hook. >> either your statement is not true or hers is not true. >> i think we all know that we wouldn't be having this hearing, especially on an emergency basis, unless she were running for president. >> today's hearing is about political theater. >> this is about protecting information, the most sensitive information the american government has. and i wish my colleagues would take this a little bit more seriously. >> and while donald trump loomed large in that room, he was the center of a couple lines of questioning. he was a few rooms away on full-scale charm offensive with house republicans, but with the senate, he was combative at
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times, challenging senators to their faces. we want to begin with republican congressman blake tharn fold. we saw him question jim comey just a few hours ago. let's take a listen to that. oh, i'm sorry, congressman, we don't have that. we saw you take on comey and ask him a couple of questions. let me ask you first for your overview, your thoughts after 4 1/2-plus hours of talking to the director. did you come away learning anything? >> i think we learned that hillary clinton met most of the elements of the offense of leaking the classified information or improperly storing it but the director felt there needed to be criminal intent there, when the statute only said gross negligence. i think the fbi was reading more into it and either was not seeing what congress intended with that statute or was afraid
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that they would lose the case, because they couldn't prove intent. which i don't think is an element of the offense. >> so are you a lawyer? are you a trained lawyer? >> recovering attorney. >> you sound lake you know your law. you're saying you don't buy what comey said today, which is that there was not intent. >> again, you don't have to have intent to break the law. you have to have intent to do something that's against the law. you don't have to know it's illegal. and comey kept talking about how you had to know it was illegal. whether she knew it or not, she certainly should have noknown tt she should have taken better care of classified information. comey herself said she was on the verge of negligence right there. i think he used different words, extremely careless. to me, that says gross negligence. they're synonymous in my book. >> so if you have that position, what do you think of jim comey and the job that his fbi investigators did? did the justice system serve us well here, or not?
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>> i think it was incredibly frank laying out the facts. i think he made a wrong decision or interpretation about requiring intent in the statute. and one of the questions i asked him was, what do we as congress have to say in writing a statute that it's your responsibility, when you've got classified information, to be careful and we're going to hold you criminally liable if you don't use ordinary care? >> you heard democrats calling it political theater. let me ask you about that. two days after he announces his decision, you drag him up on capitol hill, the argument from democrats, and did it just to make a political point, is their argument. >> i think it came as a result of a public outcry. you heard cynthia levin saying her phone was ringing off the hook. we had a lot of people calling into my office. and the reaction we got in social media was all the same. why does hillary clinton get to have different rules than everybody else? if some army private had treated classified information the way she did, he would certainly be
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out of a job, if not facing a court-martial. >> congressman, you were also part of one of the other big pieces of news today, the meeting with donald trump this morning with house republicans. you announced your support, your endorsement of trump around the same time that meeting was happening. what led you there, finally? >> we'd written that press release a couple of days ago, just waiting to make sure everything he said was in line with what i thought he was going to say. and with what donald trump has proven he's willing to listen. his meeting with the house republican ties the number of meetings we've had with president obama. we need a president that works with congress, not somebody who's going to say my way or the highway, like we've seen from obama and like i expect we'd see from hillary clinton. >> and by all accounts, that meeting you were in with the house members went pretty well. but i'm sure you heard the senate republicans had some sharp exchanges with donald trump. he friend senator jeff flake of arizona at one point. are you worried about what
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happens 11 days from now at your convention? >> i'm not. i think the republicans are going to come together. i head to leave early to go to the comey hearing. but during that first three quarters, you really saw trump answering questions, listening to people, and interacting with members of congress. listen, you'll never have a candidate that 100% of the people like and agree with. but i think republicans are going to realize that he's a lot better choice than lick luc. and i don't think we're going to make the same mistake we made last time with mitt romney saying, well, he's not perfect, we're not going to vote. i think we learned our lesson from that. >> congressman, thanks for being with us. >> my pleasure. >> let's get more now on that meeting we were just talking about, donald trump with the senators. joining me, a journalist with some inside knowledge of the situation, hallie jackson. hallie, you've been talking to sources, you've been talking to senators. what happened in there? >> oh, man, kate. so we're talking about the meeting that he had with senate republicans now. you mentioned the house meeting that happened separately. let's focus on what happened in the senate.
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because by all accounts, it did get testy at points. and i want to talk about three main people that are making news this afternoon. senator jeff flake, ted cruz, and ben sasse. let's start with jeff flake. it seems to have been the most confrontational moment of this meeting. flake standing up and introducing himself to donald trump as the other senator from arizona, the one who wasn't captured. kate, if you remember, that's a clear reference to trump's previous dig at john mccain, a former prisoner of war and the other senator from arizona, obviously. so this was very sharp, it was very confrontational, and i asked senator flake about it within maybe the last hour. i want you to listen to some of that exchange. >> i want to support the nominee. i'm a republican. and i don't plan on voting for hillary clinton. i want to support our nominee. but i'm not there yet. >> one more time, senator, on that remark you made. it's getting at of attention,
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you stood up and said, i'm the other senator who hasn't been captured from arizona, that's so startling to people to hear. >> when he attacks the other senator from arizona, john mccain, and attacks his war record by saying that, you know, i don't respect people who have been captured, i mean, that's -- what an awful thing to say about a war hero, a true war hero. and i don't think that we can be dismissive of that kind of statement. >> so clearly, still skepticism, not just from senator flake, who has held this position now, kate, for weeks, but from other senators here on capitol hill, including, by the way, senator ted cruz, who also says he isn't sure whether he'll vote for donald trump. here's something interesting, kate. cruz was not at this bigger meeting at, but sources are telling us he did have a private one on one with donald trump just afterwards. we saw the senator as he was pulling away in his car. he didn't roll down the windows to answer our questions, but he spoke with reporters a few
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moments ago over at the heritage foundation in washington. and he has said that donald trump has now asked him to speak at the convention in cleveland. this is very interesting, it is significant. because a week and a half ago, we had, told that cruz hadn't been offered a speaking slot, and had no expectation, at least of that time, of having been offered one. perhaps a sign of a little bit of a breakthrough here, but there was no discussion of an endorsement from ted cruz to donald trump. remember, drated cruz second in delegate count. i want to mention one other senator too making some news today. ben sasse in this surprise sighting. raised some eyebrows that senator sasse showed up at this meating with trump, because sasse has been a leader of that never-trump movement for months. he was out campaigning for other candidates, rivals of trump, trying to help them overcome trump. sasse did not speak with reporters. he told me he was happy to listen but then ignored questions as he came back to the
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capitol. but i am told that sasse approached trump inside that meeting, trump seemed spruced to see the senator there, and singled him out at least a couple of times in this meeting, in a way of trying to win him over. he was saying, hey, even senator sasse doesn't want to see hillary clinton elected president and he doesn't even like he. that kind of dynamic. that kind of tone. trump saying, hey, even though i know that ben's been tough on me, i still like him and i'm glad that he is here. really an interesting day on the hill, kate. i think one of the headlines coming out of it, here we are, what, a week away from the convention in cleveland, from the start of it, and trump is still struggling to bring husband party together. but some people who maybe had privately been skeptical -- >> as the congressman said. >> were rather pleased with seeing that. >> and big headline there, hallie. you're saying ted cruz will speak at the republican convention. we did not know that until right now. hallie jackson, thanks so much.
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>> sure. up next, more news on a busy day. bill cosby back in court today as hi attorneys ask once again for the criminal case against him to be dropped. [ guitar playing ]
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early skin aging and skin cancer with a clean feel. the best for your skin. ultra sheer®. neutrogena®. bill cosby is back in a pennsylvania courtroom today. his team trying to persuade a judge to either throw out his criminal sex assault case or grant him a new preliminary hearing, where his lawyers could cross-examine his accuser in person. nbc's rahema ellis is outside the courthouse in norristown, pennsylvania. rahema, what do we know at this hour? >> what we know is that they've been discussing this for the better part of the afternoon, kate. the attorneys for bill cosby making their argument that he wasn't allowed due process, because he didn't have an opportunity to cross-examine his accuser. instead, it was hearsay evidence that was presented to the judge. the hearsay being the written report from the detective, who
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took the statement from this young woman, andrea constand, 11 years ago, and that was read into the court record, and it is from that court record that the judge in the case decided there was enough evidence to bring this to trial. the prosecutors are saying, this has been a process that's been going on for years. and that it should stand, as a matter of court proceeding. however, the defense attorneys are saying, there is an argument before a higher court here in pennsylvania that is challenging hearsay evidence in a preliminary hearing. and they think this case should be thrown out or wait until you hear about the results of that challenge to the hearsay evidence. or bring andrea constand here and allow cosby's attorneys to question her and question her in order for them to go on record, before any decisions are made about whether or not this case goes to trial. kate? >> rahema ellis outside the courtroom as we wait from news inside. i'm joined now by philadelphia
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criminal defense attorney, theodore simon is with us. ted, thank you for being with us. good to see you again. >> nice to see you. >> this challenge that rahema was just outlining from cosby's team, it comes with context, right? it comes with the context of the pennsylvania supreme court trying to decide as we speak about this issue of whether accusers need to appear in person at a preliminary hearing. is that right? >> that's exactly correct. and there's a tension. fundamentally, any person is presumed innocent and the commonwealth of the government has the burden of proof for proving the case. in a trial, it's beyond a reasonable doubt. but at a preliminary hearing, they have to prove every element by at least 51% and that the defendant on trial is the person who committed it. in every preliminary hearing, there's a requirement that only legal competent and legally admissible evidence be received. the question is whether or not hearsay, rank hearsay, where the
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entire case is based upon hearsay, is that adequate to permit someone to be legally restrained and their freedom interrupted? and that very question is before this supreme court. there's a superior court case call ricer that said it was okay. but the supreme court accepted a discretionary appeal, so you would think they have their mind on reversing that case, and there's a fair probability, although we're reading tea leaves, that they very well may do that and say it is impermissible and unjustified to have someone to have their freedom restrained when the commonwealth has not presented the accuser. you know, a defendant is entitled to confront his accuser and in pennsylvania, it's a face to face accusation. at trial, the question is, does it mr. tapply to a preliminary hearing. you know, the rules provide that preliminary hearing are critical stages of the proceeding.
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that a defendant is entitled to a lawyer, and a lawyer is entitled to cross-examine. and it would become, without any meaning, if a lawyer had to cross-examine someone in a hearsay context, who didn't have firsthand information. no one would want a lawyer to be merely a potted plant and not be effective. nor would someone want to cross-examine the equivalent of a witness who was a potted plant, who doesn't have any information, and cannot meaningfully answer the difficult questions. let me say one more thing. cross-examine is really important. it's been said to be the greatest legal engine ever invented for the discovery of truth. and that's what is at issue here. >> and you're saying that, as i should point, a former defense attorney. so, but the options before the judge -- >> you're talking about me. i'm not former. i am -- >> current, sorry. current defense attorney. >> very happy to say that. >> don't mean to retire you so soon. but quickly, the options for the judge, they could redo the preliminary hearing, they could move forward, or they could kind
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of wait for the supreme court of pennsylvania to figure this out. >> the judge could do a number of things. one, he could grant the habeas corpus and dismiss the case. he could deny the habeas corpus request, at which point the defendant would be in the position, mr. cosby, of taking interlocutory appeal. the same way ricker took it. the defendant is not entitled to a pretrial interlocutory appeal. the superior court would have to do what they did in ricker and say there are exceptional circumstances. and there are exception circumstances but this applies to every potential person who is accused and every citizen, that they should not have their liberty restrained unless and until the commonwealth can prove by legally admissible and competent evidence.
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is rank hear say admissible. >> after the break. reaction from the clinton campaign to fbi comey's four-hour grilling on capitol hill. and on that day you will walk into a room where 15 people will be waiting... 12 behind the sofa, 2 behind the table and 1 and a half behind a curtain. family: surprise! but only one of them will make a life long dream come true. great things are ahead of you when your health is ready for them. at humana, we can help you with a personalized plan for your health for years to come. afdave stops working, but his aleve doesn't. because aleve can last 4 hours longer than tylenol 8 hour. what will you do with your aleve hours? this dog treat called max and dentalife.covered it's really different. see? it's flexible...
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hepatitis b, are prone to infections, or have flu-like symptoms or sores. don't start humira if you have an infection. want more proof? ask your rheumatologist about humira. what's your body of proof? we are waiting for the governor of minnesota to brief reporters about the death of philando castile, 32-year-old man who was shot fatally at a traffic stop on wednesday night. as soon as that happens, we expect expect it about minutes from now. we'll bring it to you live. meantime. reaction from the clinton campaign about james comey's testimony that lasted more than four hours. clinton supporter and possible vice presidential candidate california congressman javier bacerra joins me. thank you for being with us on a very busy day. >> thank you, kate. >> your republican colleagues raised a lot of questions about her truthfulness, questioning
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whether there were no charges brought at all. are you concerned that today's hearing underscores the message that they have about her lack of trustworthiness? >> actually, i think the hearing underscores what the secretary has been saying and what we heard director comey say previously when they announced their findings, that there was no reason, no basis to try to move forward with any type of action against the secretary. and so, four hours of grilling gave us an opportunity to see -- to test what the director had said. four hours gave the republicans plenty of opportunity to try to make more out of this. i think now they understand that the fbi did a thorough investigation. it was nonindependently. nonpartisanly. now we should move forwards. >> there were a couple exchanges where republicans said, she said this at one point, is that true. and the director of the fbi said, no, it's not true. how do you -- if those become campaign ads, how will you fight that impression?
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>> i think you fight it with the report itself. the report itself speaks for itself. you don't have to go out there and go with a he said, she said. you don't have to go with some partisan's interpretation of what the report found. the fbi came through with a conclusive report. it was as thorough as you can get. it took a look at the 55,000 pages of emails that the secretary submitted, and it was went through everything. and kate, i don't know what else you can do except ask a non-partisan, dispassionate body that's professional in the way it does its business, the way the fbi is, and then take that report and then say you want to throw it away and start coming up with your own partisan conclusions. we've got some information. republicans, i know, love to investigate the investigators. it will be at some point time to move forward and get some work done in congress. >> we're up against it today. i know you wanted to talk about the gun legislation you're trying to bring up. house democrats taking action again today. we'll have you back to talk about that if that's all right with you. >> we'll do that.
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that's going to do it for this hour. steve kornacki picks up our coverage right now. all right. good afternoon. i'm steve kornacki here in new york. we begin this hour with breaking news out of minnesota. that's where we are standing by for the governor of that state to hold a press conference and take questions after a deadly police-involved shooting at a traffic stop in st. paul. this comes on the heels of a similar shooting in baton rouge, licens louisiana, a day earlier. this was caught on tape, posted on social media and has quickly become a national story. president obama weighing in on both incidents today saying he is deeply disturbed by the shootings. we're going to bring you the


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