tv MSNBC Live MSNBC December 3, 2016 10:00am-11:01am PST
1:00 eastern, 10:00 out west, here's what's happening. breaking news in oakland, california, where a large fire erupted at a warehouse party last night, killing at least nine people. these are live pictures. officials worry that number may increase. so far, at least 25 people are unaccounted for. we know there were about 50 people inside the building when the fire broke out. officials are calling this one of the worst single fire structures in oakland. >> right now there's limited access to the structure. but it's too unsafe, and not only that, there's a lot of heavy wood and -- from when the roof came in that is going to have to be removed. so it's going to take a while for us to finish up the search. >> nbc's steveatrson is following the developments from our los angeles bureau. steve, what do we know and do we know what started the fire? i guess i should start there. >> we don't at this point. but the battalion chief, as you just played, just said it. i mean, this is -- has to be a
logistical nightmare for fire investigators who are trying to get inside there and do their work. as she mentioned on tape there, the roof seemed to have caved in on this fire at the time the fire broke out. it seems like there were limited pathways up and down to the second floor access. it seems based on early reporting that there were not fire sprinklers, there was not a fire alarm set up inside this mixed-use structure. so from the very outset, this is not a good situation for people in there when it involves any sort of smoldering or fire. and then when firefighters arrived there on-scene, the structure is, of course, fully involved. so now the work is still to pare down the remnants of this fire so crews can get inside there, get up to the floors in the access points where they weren't able to get inside to try to find out if there are more victims. so try to see if there are more bodies to recover, essentially, on this fire. it broke out at about 11:30 last night, as you mentioned. about 50 people inside.
some sort of party or social gathering. fire crews get the call, they arrive on-scene. it's fully involved. very hard, limited access points to get inside to actually combat the fire. and then they find nine dead. most in that second floor. 25 at this point still unaccounted for. that number is the number of people that they have built a list upon. that does not mean that those people are missing. that does not mean those people are dead. because fire crews and investigators still believe that many people may have self-checked themselves into local hospitals. so that's a number that they're trying to get hold of as we speak. the first work they have to do is make sure they pare down the fire, pathe hot spots and a che on whether or not this structure is able even to have people on that second floor to dig for more clues, to dig for more people that may be trapped inside that structure. so that's the work that they're doing right now, sheinelle. >> and that structure is massive. as you talked, we're looking at
these live pictures. and finally, there is so much out there on social media, on instagram, on facebook, about people who are unaccounted for. is there any place that people can go to get facts as far as if they're looking for relatives? >> there is a social media hash tag that was just set up. i don't have that information at this point. but that is something that we'll work to get out there for you. there is a check-in system for people to make sure they're still safe. it's not known, again, whether or not that 25 number, that hard number that police and fire crews are working with, is the number of people missing, the number of people that may have been dispersed to local hospitals. that is work investigators are doing right now as we speak. >> obviously still developing. nbc's steve patterson, thank you for checking in with us. now to politics and more fallout over the president-elect's phone call with the taiwanese president breaking a nearly 40-year precedent. the white house says it was not given advance notice about the call, which was captured in these pictures released by the taiwanese government late last night.
here is what john yarmuth told my colleague earlier. >> what donald trump did yesterday in talking to the my taiwanese president is the kind of loose cannon behavior that has gotten the world very, very shaky. the only people around him are political operatives and not policy people. and he needs to get some policy people, some very, very experienced, savvy people, or he's going to make some critical mistakes. >> also today, new reaction following heated exchanges between the trump and clinton teams at harvard the other night. here is more election post mortem from former campaign interviews in an interview that will air tomorrow. >> steve bannon run breitbart news which is notorious for stories like this. they pedalled a lot of stories on that website that are just false. they're just not true. and that reinforced sexist, racist, anti sem mittic notions.
>> i think america said there is a difference between what may foend me and what absolutely affects me and i as a voter am going that way. >> the president-elect is taking a break today ahead of tuesday when he resumes his thank you tour. he'll travel to north carolina, and then on thursday, he and the vice president elect will visit iowa. on the democratic side, congressman keith ellison emerging as the front runner. now that former chairman howard dean is taking his hat out of the ring. as ellison faces renewed challenges for questioning u.s. policies toward israel, in a 2010 speech, he's trying to ease kernels over whether he would be able to serve as dnc chair and keep his day job. here's what end at an event in denver featuring others vying for dnc chair yesterday. >> i absolutely will make the dnc my number one commitment. when i started this conversation, i assumed that, you know, debby, tim kaine, governor rendell, other people
had done it. i didn't think it was a problem. but i recognize, we really are in a new age. but let me just tell you this. so i'm in the process of deciding this issue of whether i can perform both roles. but you asked me, will it be my first priority. absolutely. >> let's bring in my colleague, kelly o'donnell. what else do we know about trump's conversation with the taiwanese president? let's get into that? >> well, they sort of described it in the usual terms that we see in diplomatic circles, which is ironic, because the call itself has set off such a flurry of questions, and in some cases criticisms of donald trump. and from some, sort of a applause for his different style. as we look at these issues seriously about the nature of the u.s. relationship with china, are worried, because the call readout, as it's described in sort of washington terms, talks about the fact that he and the taiwanese president talked about their common interests in the economy and that kind of thing. now in china, the foreign minister today reacted strongly.
at the same time, the chinese are showing a bit of a measured response in putting the blame on taiwan, and not necessarily aiming their criticism at donald trump himself, which is also notable, because they'll have to deal with him as president in just a matter of weeks. they're calling it a small trick, which is probably a translation issue with the taiwanese. and saying it -- it is a concern if this, in any way, changes the nature of the relationship between the u.s. and china. now, trump senior advisers say he did not intend to set off any diplomatic shock waves. it is not a change in policy. the white house is reaffirming that the one china policy, which means that internationally, the u.s. and most other countries recognize that there is only one china and taiwan is included within that as a formal part of how we deal with china and the world. that is not changing. but this is the kind of thing that certainly sets off question marks, as he prepared, is he knowingly doing this? some of his supporters who i've
talked today said this is the kind of donald trump he said he would be as a leader. that he would be willing to shake things up, to challenge some of the norms. now, there are consequences to that. and we'll have to see how that bears out. will china or other countries he deals with respond in ways the u.s. can't control? will it cause any problems for president obama and the remaining days of his term? those things we'll see in the days to come. but it certainly has gotten attention. trump himself has used twitter to say this isn't really a big deal, that the call came to him, although we know that it was, in fact, arranged from both sides. and saying there is a u.s. business relationship with taiwan, the u.s. sells military equipment and weapons to taiwan. so why not take a congratulatory call. it tells us about the sort of le donald trump is trying to be. unpredictable. >> quickly, kelly, could there be new pressure on donald trump on secretary of state after this. >> one of the most significant roles yesterday to be filled, down to four finalists, they tell us. we have limited time left. so you would expect that within
days, we should hear something. will have this a direct impact on whom he chooses or how it's viewed? hard to say. but certainly a lot of questions about the diplomacy, whomever that choice is, will have to sort of carry out in the world, based on the boss who will be in the white house in a trump administration. >> that's for sure. good information. kelly o'donnell, thank you. joining me now is molly hooper, congressional reporter for the hill. good morning. >> good afternoon. >> molly, let's pick up on the president-elect's call with the taiwanese president. some from the gop have praised it. while democrats are critical. is political reaction following essentially along party lines here? >> it seems to be doing so. i mean, if you look at ted cruz just sent out a tweet saying that, you know, i would rather have donald trump speaking with the taiwanese president than say, raul castro or the president of iran. sort of a swipe at president obama. so, you know, republicans are following in line more so behind
donald trump. matt sammen, outgoing republican from arizona actually went to the taiwanese president's -- inauguration, essentially, and he was a missionary in taiwan. he really applauded donald trump taking this step. and democrats, you see people like chris murphy from connecticut who say, listen, it seems like donald trump is out there. he's making these decisions that will have long-term ramifications. but there isn't a policy in place. ask this is the kind of thing that starts wars. so we'll see how this plays out on the hill. >> erin, what about from the warehouse? is there a since of alarm from the obama administration. do officials there feel they're in a position where they have to calm chinese leaders on this one? >> it seems we're hearing a little bit of calming from the white house, saying their apologies isn't changing and u.s. foreign policy with respect to china and taiwan will not change. one thing i would point out is that donald trump is certainly going to have a learning curve and is going to make mistakes
and seems taiwan took advantage of that because foreign policy might not be something he grasps as well and might be something he is learning going into the job. your question on is this following down along party lines, i would point you to early 2009, early in president obama's presidency, when he was seen laughing and joking with the venezuelan later, hugo chavez and republicans said this is not responsible for the president to be engaging with that venezuela jn leader that w. so we're going to see democrats make hay over mistakes that donald trump will continue to make. but every new president does. and i think that's something to keep in mind. >> i want to shift gears just a bh bit, molly. take a listen to newt gingrich. take a listen. >> there's a scene in "pretty woman," where richard gere goes up to the salesman on rodeo drive and says, "we need a little sucking up here."
okay? you know, never, ever in your career seen a serious adult who is wealthy, independent, has been a president alnominee, is up at the rate that mitt romney is sucking up. >> ouch, molly. why does gingrich dislike romney so much? >> they ran against each other in 2012. there is that. >> something. >> lingering something. and also i think that romney took a lot of swipes at the people who were behind donald trump early on. or earlier on, like a newt gingrich. and i think that there are still some, you know, sore feelings about it. and newt gingrich is one -- if you look back in 19 -- i think it was '95 or '96 when he said bill clinton's snubbed him for having him sit in the back of air force one, when he was speaker of the house at the time.
when newt gingrich was speaker of the house at the time. you know, this is kind of the personality who feels things very, very much and likes to talk about it. that said, i think that, you know, gingrich -- one would have thought he would have played a bigger role in this administration in terms of having a cabinet position, but he doesn't have one. so we'll see what happens with newt gingrich. it just -- seems like some sore feelings. >> go ahead, erin. >> can i just add? you have to remember back when they did run against each other, as molly mentioned, in 2012, and the romney campaign went after gingrich, because for a while there, he took over a lead from mitt romney, and even won the state of south carolina, and the romney campaign started to really freak out and unleashed everything they could on newt gingrich. and i remember covering one of his campaign events then in the next primary in florida, where he stood in front of a lake and for about 20 minutes just unleashed his own tirade against mitt romney. he has some bitter feelings
toward mitt romney. and you're seeing that come out now. >> so what's your reaction to this -- >> kellyanne conway was working for newt gingrich at the time, which is what maybe perhaps explains her feelings about mitt romney at the same time. >> what's your reaction, either one of you, to the scene in that restaurant? >> wow. it was an unusual scene. but as we can -- as we have seen from donald trump, a lot of -- the one thing about him, he's unpredictable. and we have seen a lot of scenes playing out that -- i mean, you know, seeing president-elect trump and president obama sitting together in the oval office, and talking to reporters and what not, and donald trump calling him a great guy after basically saying terrible things about the president during the election. that was kind of an unusual scene, too. >> i was going to hold your feet to the fire and make -- ask both of you if you can ultimately pick mitt romney, but we're out of time. maybe next saturday. molly hooper, erin mcpike, thank you for talking with me. >> thank you.
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call today. comcast business. built for business. president-elect donald trump has announced he'll nominate congressman tom price to head the department of health and human services. joining me now is kathleen sebelius, secretary of health and human services under president obama. he had the responsibility of implementing the affordable care act. thank you for talking with me this afternoon. >> thank you for having me, sheinelle. >> let's talk about what mike pence has said about price's nomination, and i'll get your reaction. >> the appointment of dr. tom price as the head of health and human services, someone who literally for the last half a
dozen years has been in the forefront of efforts, not only to repeal obamacare, but to put forward common sense, free market solutions that will lower the cost of health insurance without growing the size of government is very exciting. and should be a source of great encouragement to millions of americans. >> what's your reaction? >> well, i think what we have right now, i'm here in ohio on a family holiday visit and ohio is one of the states that has millions of people now covered under either new marketplace policies or the expansion of medicaid, and a republican governor who did that. mike pence, the incoming vice president, as governor, expanded medicaid, took advantage of the framework of the health care law to make sure that indiana citizens who didn't have health care now have it. same in michigan and neighboring state with a republican governor. so we have 20 million people, sheinelle, whose health care
really has been expanded and depends on this law going forward. i think that tom price, as a member of congress, has not only been a strong opponent of the health care law, but also a strong opponent of medicare as it exists right now, which is widely and happily supported by the 53 million beneficiaries. he's an opponent of medicaid. he has made it clear that he would change a lot of things. so i think there are a lot of people right now worried about their health care, worried about their kids, worried about paying for their ongoing treatments, and wondering what it is that this republican congress has in mind when they say they're going to replace the law with something that will work even better. >> well, there's another piece of this i want to ask you about. congressman price says he would repeal the individual mandate. can the affordable care act survive without that? >> well i think you have a real catch-22 when you say that
insurance companies must sell to anyone, regardless of a preexisting condition. and the vast majority of americans strongly support that progress. that insurance companies shouldn't get to pick and choose who gets health insurance. if you leave that portion of the law in place, but repeal the portion that says everybody needs to participate, then very quickly you have an insurance terms a death spiral. you have older and sicker individuals buying insurance, because they're sick and they desperately need it. and younger and healthier people opting out of the system. and that just doesn't work. it quickly becomes unaffordable and it quickly becomes just a high-risk pool where only the sick people participate. >> well, here's the deal. any time i say the word obamacare, it's like we strike a nerve and my twitter page explodes. for people on both sides of the aisle, there is a jump in 2017 premiums for some using the exchanges. here's the deal. you left the administration in
2014. you've had some time to reflect. talk to me about what you take from that as far as the affordable care act, what it accomplished and some of its shortcomings, if you're honest with me. >> again, i think there are 20 million people right now with health insurance through being on their parents' plan, in the marketplaces, in expanded medicaid programs who weren't insured before. we have the lowest rate of uninsured ever in the history of the united states. that's a very good thing. that's very good news. and most americans agree that that's good news. our cost too high, you bet. one of the ways to get costs down is encourage more companies to actually participate in a marketplace. i'm a market believer that competition really is good for lowering rates. repealing a law and then saying in three years we'll tell you what replaces it is a way to further destabilize the market. so i don't think that really works very well.
i do think there's some things that could be looked at. you know, is the requirement about part-time workers at the right number of hours, should we eliminate some of the paperwork, are some ways that you could make policies more affordable, particularly for people who right now are struggling to pay their premiums. should we go after drug prices? you bet. >> would more competition help? >> therere a number of issues. more competition, absolutely, will help. that's what i said before, that i think having more companies participate in these marketplaces would be very helpful. it's the best way to keep costs down. competition really works. >> so if -- i don't want to pin you down here. but if you had to pick the number one short coming and what you would change, what would it be? i think the challenges when we talk about obamacare we get in the weeds. people love it or hate it. if we're trying to get specific
here, what would you change? >> well, i think one of the things that would really help is to help stabilize -- this is a brand-new market. insurers are participating for the first time, a lot of them, in this individual marketplace. so i think finding ways to encourage more companies -- this is private sector, not government. private sector companies from coming in, helping to balance that risk pool, would be enormously helpful. there was a framework in the law that i think could have been very beneficial. that congress decided not to fund. that has really hurt some folks in the long run. but i think anything that actually moves the ball forward, makes sure that people have coverage and anything that actually helps to lower costs, but not in a way that takes people out of the insurance market and puts them in some high-risk pool. that's been the proposal in the past. i think what you're seeing, sheinelle, is that republicans after six and a half years complaining that this law
doesn't work still have no real replacement for the law. have no way to say to the american public, we have a plan to move forward. and that's why now they're talking about we'll repeal the law, symbolically, but we won't have any kind of replacement that we can talk about right away. and to me, that only will make things far worse. particularly for people whose life and death depends on having health insurance. who are looking at their child as a cancer survivor and want to make sure that child can be insured in the long run. it will really even make the law much more unstable than it is now. >> we're dealing with health, so we understand why people are so passionate about it. kathleen sebelius, my fellow kansan, thank you for talking with me today. >> thank you. all right. in a moment, a survivor, that deadly fire in oakland, talks about his escape and attempts to save someone else. ♪
welcome back. i'm sheinelle jones here at msnbc world headquarters in new york. at the half hour, here's what we're monitoring. w images coming in this hour showing the scale of damage at a warehouse in oakland, california, where a huge fire broke out last night during a party. at least nine people are confirmed dead. but the sheriff's office fears that up to 40 people are dead. investigators say they are preparing for a, quote, mass casualty event. 25 people remain unaccounted for at this hour. some fortunate to escape the fire is talking about how he tried to save someone else. >> i was going back to get my camera and computer and another member of the collective had broken his ankle and was calling out for help. i was pulling him out, he's a larger gentlem larger gentleman and there was a lot of stuff in the way and the flames were too much. too much smoke. i haven't seen him. and there has been flames shooting out of the building for the past 30 minutes.
so -- i hope -- i hope he's okay. >> heartbreaking. nbc's steve patterson following the developments from our los angeles bureau. steve, what can you tell us? >> horrific situation, sheinelle. new briefing coming in from the alameda county sheriff's department, saying they fear this could turn quickly into a mass casualty event. they're preparing now for some 40 dead. upwards of that number. again, the number that we have right now, nine dead. 25 that have been unaccounted for on a list that the investigators who are looking into this fire are now going over. but the fear now is that they're preparing for a much, much, much bigger number. so investigators, again, waiting for that structure to become structurally sound. first work that has to be done is with the first team of firefighters on-scene, paring down hot spots, making sure the smoldering is taken care.
then the engineers have to get in there to make sure it's safe enough for firefighters to get into the nooks and crannies in that warehouse, which is a huge structure. multipurpose warehouse that was used to have a party with upwards of 50 to somewhere maybe around 100 people last night in that party. their work now is to make sure that structure is structurally sound. so they can first, a., confirm what number we actually do have, and then b., find out how this fire started, where it started, and what work they need to do to find out how many people were trapped in that fire. that's work that's being done right now. we know, again, 11:30 last night, this party was going on. this fast-moving fire started raging, cutting through this warehouse. and then, again, when fire crews got on-scene, no smoke alarms, no sprinklers going off. they make entry and then they find those people,
unfortunately, trapped. most of them on the second floor of that structure with the roof that had then caved in. so, again, the structure, a real nightmare for investigators who need to get in there to do the work they need to do to find out how this fire started. who may be still trapped in that structure. and then there is a ton of work. as you mentioned, lot time we spoke on social media to try to confirm who may have checked themselves into local hospitals, who may be called family and who, you know, may be a victim of this fire, which, again, now is a big fear out there that this is a mass casualty eventuality, upwards of 40 people may be inside that structure, sheinelle. >> you keep talking about how this started. no theory, not even an inkling as to how this happened? >> unfortunately, just based on the fact that we have been saying that this structure is so badly damaged at this point, that it's really difficult for investigators to get in and to
find a source or to find even where it started. there is a theory, obviously, that there may have been -- may have started on the second floor, just based on how the structure fell apart in the fire. but that's not confirmed. so firefighters have to, first of all, again, make sure that it's safe enough for their teams to go in and check. and then safe enough for the investigators to actually sort through the wreckage to find out how it started. but what we do know, obviously, is that this was a -- this was a party last night, late into the night. and then at some point this fire moves very, very quickly through this structure. does a lot of damage. and is fatal. >> all right. steve, i want to let you know, we just have this clip from the fire chief. let's play it and talk about it on the other side. take a listen. >> sure. >> it's going to go down as probably one of the worst fires that they have gone to. i know that the oakland hills fire, we lost 25 people during that fire. but as a single structure fire,
i don't think oakland has had a fatality at this magnitude in a while. >> this is heartbreaking. and steve, we talked about it earlier and i don't know if we have any answers yet. the fact that this morning on social media people were all over facebook and instagram posting questions and pictures, one if they were safe and accounted for and then a lot of questions about relatives, maybe people in other parts of the country who just want to know what the facts are. do we know yet if there is a place with a comprehensive list of people who are indeed unaccounted for? >> so the alameda county sheriff's office has set up a family assistance center in the area of the fire. the fire is at 31st street. this is on east 12th street. they set up a help line. 510-382-3000, that is the number they're telling people who may be worried about a loved one or friend to call to confirm whether that person is safe or
to find out what exactly is happening with the investigation up to this point. apart from that, there are a number of checks online happening. the there is a facebook page that was set up in correspondence to this party. there are a lot of people posting on that facebook page right now to confirm loved ones, family, friends, to make sure everybody is checked in and safe. that is work that is just being done in the community as this thing goes on. again, that number has been set up. there is a helpline. there is a local residence that is in the area, and investigators are using that to try to make sure they have a solid count on the number of people. but if this number is the one we're hearing, this may be a horrific, horrific event. sheinelle? >> tough situation. steve patterson, thank you for checking in. >> thank you. still ahead, the tug of war over the presidential election recount. up next, what trump lawyers are doing to stop it. once i heard be a park ranger, i got really excited. gabe's obviously really sick.
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in wisconsin, a federal judge has denied the effort by trump supporters to stop a recount in that state. some counties are recounting ballots by hand. some by machine. the efforts started thursday after green party presidential candidate, jill stein, raised enough money to file for a recount. joining me now, john nichols, correspondent for "the nation" magazine. you recently wrote the electoral college, you called it, is an abomination. if you look at donald trump's margin of victory in three states, engaging it or considering recounts, it was pretty decisive. only michigan came close. so in our opinion, what does the electoral college go wrong? >> well, i think the electoral college goes wrong in an awfully lot of fronts. first and foremost, it doesn't reflect the national popular vote. at this point, if you look at the cook political reports estimates, it appears that hillary clinton is leading by more than 2,500,000 votes. that's a very, very substantial
lead. and so right off the bat, the electoral college intervenes between the people and the choice they have made. and it's also significant that this is the second time that this appears likely to happen in the last 16 years. you saw it with bush v gore in 2000. we have to ask whether the electoral college is serving the function that most people anticipate, which is that it would reflect the electorate, rather than it would thwart the electora electorate. >> the clinton campaign and others have blamed white nationalism, among other things for trump's victory. we know that many of the counties in the rest belt states voted to elect president obama in 2012. and in some cases for the second time. so what do you think was the tipping point here? >> i think there are a lot of factors. and you should not underestimate the reality of racism and sexism and a host of other issues that are very real and that are a factor in our politics.
deeply and fortunately, certainly the case. i also think, though, that it's quite clear, and clinton people have begun to acknowledge this. that they underplayed their appeal to rural areas. and what you look at in states like wisconsin, michigan, pennsylvania, frankly, a lot of other states, is that the democrats simply underperformed. sometimes dramatically underperformed in rural counties that had once been quite friendly to them. >> you're not the first person to make that point. different states have different systems forecasting, counting and recounting votes without an absolute guarantee of voting rights and an assurance that votes are cast and accounted to a single national standard. the electoral pathologies in individual states will continue to work the work electoral college in ways that define the race for the presidency. so with that said, do you agree with recount efforts led by jill stein's camp? >> of course. i always favor recounts. in fact, it's funny, i live in
wisconsin, and i recently wrote something supporting a republican legislative candidate's effort to get a recount in the western part of the state. my vote is recounts are always healthy. one of the mistakes people make is an assumption that they are only to determine who got the most votes. that's important, that's the most vital reality. but they're also a way to make sure that the machinery wrorork well, that the accounting processes worked well. and so, yes, i'm very sympathetic to recounts. even if i don't necessarily think they're going to change the reality of the election. >> all right. we could tackle a lot, but we're out of time. john nichols, thank you for checking in with me today. >> thanks for your great questions. coming up, the racial divide in this country, the fate of dylann roof for the horrific charleston church attack. why some african-americans prefer to see him live. and next hour, it's a new pride and joy of donald trump's real estate. see why it's the flashpoint of
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happening now in cuba, fidel castro's remains getting closer to their final resting place in santiago where it started. castro ashes travel across the island. let's go to morgan radford. what is it like right now? >> reporter: sheinelle, you can see people already beginning to pack the square just behind me. and that's ahead of a 7:00 p.m. public memorial service that's being held this evening. and that will be the final public memorial service in the entire island. now, fidel castro's ashes have been traveling from havana here to santiago and cuba. this is the area where he was from. an hour and a half away. people here are really beginning to discuss his legacy and what thatacy legacy meant to them. take a listen to what one woman said. >> anything changes, probably
because of the new presidency of the states. i think in cuba, everything would remain the same. >> reporter: she's effectively saying she doesn't think things are going to change significantly, because fidel castro's legacy was so strong here, the country will remain loyal to those things. i want to show you just behind me where you see these flags, that's where those ashes are currently. that's where people are coming to say goodbye. this is the fourth stop those ashes have made today in the city of santiago de cuba, and people lining up in the streets to say goodbye. they have been chanting "i am fidel," the people are with you. so it's a very powerful moment today ahead of the final resting memorial tonight, sheinelle. >> certainly a contrast to what we saw here in the states. nbc's morgan radford, thank you. a new poll shows a striking difference in opinion about what americans think should happen to white supremacist, dylann roof, and you may find the results
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a new poll shows a racial divide in what people think should happen to dylann roof, the white supremacist accused of killing nine black parishioners in 2015. jury selection in his trial just wrapped up this week. take a look at this. the majority of whites in the poll want the death penalty. african-americans want him to live. joining me, henderson hill, former detector of the death penalty center. why do we see such a disparity? >> thank you for having me. i'm not surprised at all by the poll. the killings in charleston were horrible, horrific. the punishment should be grave. the black community, however, makes an almost immediate
connection between the death penalty and history of lynching. the death penalty has been reserved largely of people of color, certainly disproportionately for people of color. for people with less resources than those that are necessary to meet the case of government, and one lawyer, one well respected commentator said the death penalty was reserved for folks with the worst lawyers, and not necessarily the worst crime. while this may be one of the ugliest, most violent crimes in history, it doesn't abstract away from the fact the death penalty as a system is oppressive, most especially to the african-american community. >> you think this has more to do with african-american stance on the death penalty than dylann roof? >> everyone believes dylann roof should be punished harshly.
what people are concerned about is the death penalty is a broken system. it's arbitrary. it involves racial disparities both in terms of jury participation and the focus of prosecutions on the black community. what i think the black community feels is that by extending the death penalty to this 21-year-old high school dropout with questionable competence is this will preserve a penalty that is barbaric and used against communities largely of color and will have an impact more on communities with color than on the people, the targets that the community would be deserving. >> you had a closer look at the numbers here. what about age difference? do younger african-americans tend to support life than the older generation? is there a difference? >> i think judging from my children and their cohorts,
younger people have a question, theover reach of government. they see overpolicing of black community. sandra bland, michael brown, walter scott, and they see policing of their community, overpolicing of their community not recognizing the dignity of african-americans, and they see the death penalty as the cap stone of a criminal justice system that continually disrespects the dignity of the black community. to preserve that penalty and the trial of dylann roof may have that impact to preserve the penalty. if it is preserved, it's going to be inflicted much more grievously on the black community. >> henderson hill, thank you for your time. >> thank you. that will do it for this hour of msnbc live coverage.
good day, i'm ari melber. donald trump off to a bumpy start with one of the largest nations in the world. trump responded to criticism of his business conflicts by promising a new approach on december 15th. is it enough on substance? we'll cut through the hype with an ethics expert. mounting outrage after the man who admitted to killing former nfl player joe mcknight in a road rage incident is still walking the