tv MSNBC Live MSNBC June 6, 2017 8:00am-9:01am PDT
much appreciated. i'm on twitter, snapchat, instagram and facebook. we'll be live from inside the west wing. now, i'll toss it to my colleagues, ali velshi and stephanie ruhle, day two of their new show. >> we're coming right back to you in a moment, hallie jackson. good morning, everyone. i'm ali velshi. >> i'm stephanie ruhle. the breaking news is out of paris. an incident near the notre dame cathedral took place. kelly cobiella is in the london bureau. what do you know? >> police in paris confirmed there was an attempted assault on a police officer in the vicinity of notre dame cathedral. there are reports that people have been told to stay inside the cathedral if that's where they were at the time. people have been advised to stay away from the area by paris police in a tweet that came through just about a half an hour ago. an eyewitness tells nbc news
that police sho this man at least thr times after he tried to assault this police officer. it's not clear the status of this man, whether he was killed, but you're looking there at a picture of paris right now. just outside notre dame cathedral, you can see the police presence there. no tourists there. normally tourists in the area. that's a popular spot, right in the heart of the city. a big tourist spot, notre dame cathedral. this follows, as you'll remember, back in april the shooting of a police officer. actually, one was killed. two others injured in what police called a terrorist incident. the attacker in that case was shot and killed. now, we have this outside the notre dame cathedral. unclear if we're dealing with just one person here or if this
is an active scene. we haven't heard that yet from police. they're simply telling people to stay away from the area. there you see the heavily police presence. police and riot gear there. it is a heavily protected part of paris, ever since the paris attacks in 2015. they've had lots of armed officers on the streets. they've been braced for attacks, prepared for attacks throughout the city. >> yeah. >> so this is something that they're always prepared for there. >> i was there just -- >> we'll try to get more information for you guys. >> thank you, kelly. i appreciate that. i was there a few weeks ago, and the police presence is measurably different. it happens changed how people g about their lives, which is outdoors a lot. the armed officers there in the pictures, and it is not typical in paris or london to see that. on the heels of the london attack, everybody takes these things seriously. might have been an isolated
incident. we don't know. >> parisians may not change how they live their lives, but akroo across the board, travel is down. people are concerned. i want to take you from paris to london back to d.c. a lot is happening in the white house this morning. in fact, right now, we are learning that president trump is meeting with national security adviser h.r. mcmaster. we know they are meeting. they're discussing a lot. they have a lot to cover. not just the comey testimony tomorrow. h.r. mcmaster in his national security position, he has a deep understanding of these risks. it is important for the president to sort of -- i know if you're mcmaster, he wants the president to stay centered and calm and not lash out like we've been seeing. >> and not tweet until you know what's going on. but the president will be because he is with hr mcmaster, being briefed on this situation we're watching. the difficulty of things like this is we don't know. could be an isolated attack at notre dame. today, even if it is low tech, and there is one report it may have been with a hammer, we
don't know what these things are. we don't know how people are conducting attacks. malcolm nance, our terrorism expert, is on the phone with us. malcolm, you've been busy the last few days dealing with stuff in london. it's sort of hard to separate the weak from the chaff when you hear of an attack in a place like notre dame. there's more security presence in paris than six months ago, but these are still soft targets. >> well, the entire world is a soft target when it comes to a terrorist. >> yeah. >> that's why terrorists, as the ira coined the phrase, they can be successful just once and meet all of their goals, which as antiterrorism forces have to be successful all the time. we are seeing an evolution in is isis's tactics and al qaeda's tact tactics. going from the trained attacker, organized cell, and they are pushing and have been pushing for the last three to four years
for attackers to take up what they call the self-starting jihad or jihad in place. don't come to a battle zone. stay at home. use some of the simplest tools you have. they took these tactics from the palestinians, which we call suicide individual weapons attacks. that's where youick up a hammer, a knife, a kitchen knife, and what you do is come out and you deliberately attack a soldier or a policeman and try to kill that individual, then wait to be killed. we also saw them develop the vehicle as weapon system attack, as israel had over 50 of the attacks before the attack in nice and the attacks we saw in germany. so we call these actually zero value attacks. they cost no money to do. they require virtually no planning. they're almost impossible to stop. >> malcolm, we don't yet know though if this incident was a
terror attack. if we look around the world, specifically in europe, whether it is this attack today, what we saw over the weekend in london, or manchester a few weeks ago, given the limited information you have now, to you, does this look like terror? >> well, you know, i train law enforcement all the time. i just trained 150 policemen here, chiefs of police here in new york state. i try to differentiate between an edp, emotionally disturbed person, who may, in fact, actually choose the tactic of terror, like jumping out at you with a weapon, versus the terrorist attack. a terrorist attack actually has to have a political motivation behind it in order to provide fear to the broader audience. edps can look at first blush like a terrorist attack.
for a policeman to gage, which is not normal for them -- >> that is good point. they don't tically dothat. >> no, they don't. i've lived in paris. policemen there are tough. they will just beat you with a baton. but for an individual to threaten him in such a way that he drew his weapon and fired, i think that this may either be an emotionally disturbed person who the policeman thought was a terrorist, or an actual individual terrorist using the -- an individual edged or blunt weapon. >> let's go -- malcolm, stay with us, please. we're going to continue to cover this until we have a little more information as to what it is. bill neely has been in london, our chief global correspondent. he's been there because we are following through on the attacks in london. bill, one of the things that concerned police, whether in london, paris or anywhere else, is that when an isolated thing happens that causes police to go to that event, as we're seeing on the left side of our screen
in paris, there is always a concern on the part of law enforcement it is a distraction about something else that may be happening, which is why police in paris told people to shelter in place and seek safety. this is what happened in london. until they had a handle on what was happening, they told people to stay safe because they don't know if there's more. >> yeah, exactly, ali. i mean, it is a well-known isis tactic, and a tactic that other terrorists have used of what they call a double tap or a double hit. one bomb is placed. it goes off. emergency services, police, troops, whatever, rush to the first site, and then the second, much bigger bomb explodes and kills a lot of the people. let's say the terrorists get who they want to kill. police are exercising an dae of caution. they've evacuated that area. on the pole website, it says avoid the notre dame area. of course, this is right in the
center of paris. notre dame, one of the most popular tourist spots. a police spokesman has told nbc news that a man tried to attack one of its officers, and the man was shot and injured by other officers. as one of your contributors was saying, we're not really sure at the minute whether this is a terrorist attack. because i covered an incident about two years ago outside a police station where a mentally disturbed man with a knife tried to attack police officers. in the end, he wasn't charged with terrorism. but it is evidence of the very brittle, very nervous atmosphere in these two cities. london is on edge. of course, paris and france are still in a state of emergency after numerous terrorist incidents there. so this is being treated very seriously by the police. the area has been cleared. gunshots were heard.
reuters, the news agency, is reporting that the man tried to attack this police officer with a hammer. we haven't had that confirmed yet. nbc news is being told that the police exchanged fun fire with this man, is aand he has been injured. >> london, paris, remember, it wasn't long ago that attack happened in berlin in the christmas market. i want to bring kelly cobiella back in. you have new information? >> yeah. couple of items, steph and ali. first of all, reuters report saying that the french counterterrorism office has opened an investigation into this incident at the notre dame cathedral, according to the prosecutor's office. so that's according to reuters. nbc news has not yet confirmed that. i also want to tell you about this account from an eyewitness, an american, who is visiting paris from minneapolis. she said it sounded like there were two shots there. she smelled gun powder. she said she didn't see exactly what happened but she was across
the street from the cathedral. she said everyone started fleeing. police surrounded the area almost immediately. i should note, by the way, there is a police station right next to notre dame cathedral square. she said that it looked as though they'd surrounded someone at the stairs. there was a large crowd in line to go to the cathedral. erybody started running when they hea those gunshots. poce sectioned off the area. police had the place covered within minutes, this winn tetne tells us. also from reuters, a report from reuters, citing a police union official saying that the man was armed with a hammer. went after the police officer who was patrolling in front of the notre dame cathedral, and that the police officer then opened fire on this suspect. we understand he has not been killed. he's been injured and has been taken to the hospital.
lots of new information coming through. we'll try to get this individually confirmed from -- on our side. a lot of these reports coming from reuters and from associated press and eyewitnesss. >> thank you for your reporting. kelly just reiterated what the incident is believed to be. someone allegedly attacks a police officer. the police officer fired on them, as kelly was saying. there are reports the man is injured now, not dead. we don't know -- >> dehe didnhe didn't have a gu. he had a hammer. >> we don't know whether it is terrorism or, as malcolm nance pointed out, an emotionally disturbed person. it is atypical for police to fire on suspects, however, paris has been subject to terrorist attacks and everyone may be more on edge. chris dickey is with us now on the phone. i believe he is in paris. he is withhe aily beast" and spends an aul lot of time -- chris, are you in paris no >> in front of notre dame right now. >> let me set the scene here.
notre dame is on an island that is between the right bank and the left bank. it is a common place for tourists to cross from one bank to the other. >> hugely popular. >> huge population centers on either side. is it 4:13 in the afternoon now? >> yeah, i guess that's about right. >> tell us what you know. >> i just arrived here. i was looking at a police line. there is a police line that blocks off the road on to the island where neat dame is. the street along the river here, where there are normally a lot of opened book stalls, that's all closed down. there have been tourists on the boulevard which i just walked down. there were a lot of tourists, people going into the metro, some coming out. but this part of the town now is totally shut down.
there's nobody moving near notre dame as far as i can tell. it's all police in riot dpeegea. i'm looking at one police dog. several other policemen who are motioning me to move to the side. clearly, the area is shut down. >> chris, thus far, we have official reports, but where were you specifically when it happened? and on the ground, peopleround you, what do they believe -- what do you believe happened? >> well, it isn't clear. i was not right here. i was a few blocks from here when it happened. just came here as soon as i learned what had happened. i haven't really, honestly, had a chance to talk to many people about it. i wouldn't say there is any sense of panic here. there is a sense of order imposed by the police as a result of the event. that's what you can see right now. >> we're just seeing the first picture from inside the church now. this is a tweet where someone
has said police asking everyone to raise their hands inside the church. >> clearly showing if they have some sort of weapon. >> that is correct. notre dame is an active church. there are tourists all around it. there are people who walk up to the bell tower. but people go in there and pray. >> like st. patrick's cathedral. a tourist's destination but a place of worship. police asking for everyone to show their hands. they're looking, trying to identify if anyone else on the scene could have a weapon with them. >> it is also, chris dickey, a relatively dark place inside, with lots of places to go off and have silent reflection, which is why it would probably be an interesting place for police to be looking, to see if anybody is in there, looking to create more trouble. >> well, look, i think the biggest fear is that there will be some kind of explosive device in this kind of environment. we know from the past, from incidents like the bataclan incident, that terrorists have used explosive devices here in
paris in the past. that is one of the first fears. obviously, the second fear is there will be an accomplice to anyone who carries out this kind of attack. and he will wait and then strike, or in some cases, they chicken out and they're cowering in some corner of the venue. in this case, we don't know enough to know exactly who was involved or exactly what the police are finding at this point. i'm seeing right now -- i'm watching more firemen going in the direction of notre dame cathedral. i presume that that's because they're looking for any kind of incendiary twice that might be inside. >> when people go inside the church, even though it is a tourist destination, they don't have to go through any metal detecters or anything like that. if someone did have something on them, whether a weapon or explosive device, if they didn't evacuate the cathedral, they could be inside, and that
wouldn't have been detected when they entered the building, correct? >> well, there is some security at the entrance of the building. it is not completely open. it is not like everybody can wander in and out. usually, there are, in fact, long lines of people waiting to get in or waiting to go up to the top of the bell tower. but it's obviously not secured as if it were a government ministry or any of a number of other high profile targets. that said, it has to be understood that this country, france, has been on a high state of alert, at least since -- really since charlie h"charlie, but since the 2015 attacks on the bataclan concert venue and outdoor cafes and the big stadium outside of paris. so people are on alert here. the police are on alert here. but this is not the first time, far from the first time actually, at this point, that we've seen that the police themselves become the target for somebody who wants to make a
statement. now, whether that person is a jihadist or some lunatic or both, we really can't say at this point. there have been several incidents where police and soldiers, because there are soldiers in the streets here, have been attacked. >> in terms of high alert and historically speaking, put into perspective. we mentioned the bataclan nightclub, "charlie hebdo." remember the nice attack, the truck that ran over innocent bystanders. chris, we want you to stay with us. we also have abigail miller, an american, a tourist visiting paris and witness elive on the scene. what do you know? >> i'm sorry. can you repeat that question? >> tell us, what do you know? >> so i was across the street, had just left notre dame. it sounded like two gunshots went off and then saw crowds fleeing. the police responded right away. they were running into the area.
there had been large crowds in the area. a big line out front. as everyone was running out, the police were running in. they had sectioned off the streets and had moved the -- moved that quarantine bit down the road. it seemed like the firefighters showed up, emergency services, within a matter of minutes. they were very brave. i think the police did a fantastic job. they got everybody out, secured the area and did so without yelling at anybody or raising anyone's fear level. >> are you nearby still? >> i am. i'm staring tat tue ining at th now. >> chris dickey was just with us and said there isn't a sense of panic around there, but around you, are you seeing an increased police presence or are they mostly concentrated around the church? >> you know, they were within probably the first block of the church. i can still see them.
they're still out, and they're not letting cars drive immediately, you know, around, but it's calmed down quite a bit now. people weren't that panicked. the crowds, as they ran out, seemed to be scared, obviously. people were running with their hands up. not everybody though. most of them were not. from there, it was the military and the police. >> anyone arrested? >> not that i can see. >> did you -- what was your thought when it happened? i mean, it's everywhere around the world, people are thinking about, obviously, the london attack and the manchester attacks. what was your instinct when you saw this? did you think it was somebody getting into an altercation with the police, or did your mind go to terrorism? >> i think that everybody is on the alert, right? we were just in the church and we had just left the area, so it was very frightening. you know, close call for us. i hope everybody else was safe. you know, of course, everyone is a little on edge so, yes, that
was probably one of the first things that i thought of. but, you know, the police actually did a fantastic job of not raising the alarm. even though there are a lot of police around, it's calmed down quite a bit now. the sirens aren't going any longer. they've done a -- i think they responded in a fantastic manner. >> how long are you supposed to be in paris? >> i am -- for a week. >> are you going to go home or stay? >> absolutely not. they're not going to scare me. >> good for you. actually, the pictures we're seeing, they pulled out the picture a bit, but as we've been looking at the police officers, certainly doesn't look like an active scene. doesn't look like they're worried about something. we're used to seeing pictures where it is clear the police have not been given an all clear. here, it looks like a different scene. >> it almost looks quiet. >> which, of course, would be unusual for this time in the afternoon for notre dame. but they don't look panicked or look to be running around and doing a lot of things. however, abigail, it is not open to passengers, not open to
tourists, not open to cars. we see no cars and no people who are not in uniform or journalists in the pictures we've been looking at. >> yeah, that's correct. that's what i see, as well. the police are giving really nice direcons to people, telling them to go arnd, you know. offering alternative routes frrks whfrom what i can tell. it's been raining, too. i think it helped. people took cover and the businesses in the area were kind to let everybody in and take cover from the pouring rain while the police stood out there. >> it sounds like you feel safe. >> yes. yeah, i do. >> so let's -- >> i mean, it's terrifying, but they've handled it very well. >> from where you were, i'm assuming there were ambulances on the scene. did you see anyone being taken out? >> i saw an ambulance, but i did not see anyone taken out. >> we're just getting confirmation, by the way, about what kelly cobiella told us moments ago. paris police have confirmed to nbc news that the french
counterterrorism police are handling the investigation into the incident. do we still have malcolm nance on the phone? >> yes. >> malcolm, is this -- does that -- the idea that french police, terrorism police, have taken control of this investigation, does that necessarily mean it is terrorism, or does that just mean this is in their lane? this is what they do? >> i think through an overabundance of caution, that those forces, the bri, are definitely going to at least do the initial analysis. they and their detective division, just to make sure. they don't know about this individual. somebody who comes up with a hammer and specifically attacks a policeman does fit into a specific mold for the types of attacks that we've seen -- >> and what mold is that? >> well, you know, again, isis and al qaeda have been encouraging individuals to carry out these suicide individual weapons attacks.
improvised weapons. you just pick up something and kill specifically a policeman or a soldier. and, actually, malcolm, we may have information on this. hang on a second. i want to go back to london. kelly cobiella, what have you got? >> paris police have just tweeted the situation is under control. that one police officer was wounded and the suspect has been neutralized and sent to the hospital. we've heard from witnesses that shots were fired. we believe, although this isn't confirmed by police, that that suspect may have been wounded, may have been shot. what we're hearing from police now at this point is that the situation is under control. the suspect has been neutralized. one officer injured. ali, stephanie? >> thank you for that. chris dickey, we're watching these pictures. it does reflect what you were saying, that things look relatively calm and quiet. any movement now that we've heard from the paris police that the situation has been -- is
under control? >> it's pretty much as i described it. i think one thing that is worth knowing -- i'm not sure it is entirely relevant -- but one thing certainly worth knowing is that on this little island where neat dame i notre dame is, you have the center of counterterrorism operations of france. it is where the investigating magistrates are. excuse me, i'm being moved around a little bit by the police. it is where the investigating magistrates are. that's only a block away. a couple blocks away. so i think we're looking at a situation where, clearly, the tack was oriented just toward an individual policeman in -- excuse me. except i'm online. so we're looking at this situation where you have a --
one policeman being attacked with a hammer, but it is also in a broader context, the center of police and justice operations and counterterror operations in france. >> malcolm nance, i want you to continue the thought that you started earlier, where you were saying it's sort of this isis directive to say to those, you know, grab any weapon that you can and attack a police officer, an authority. can you finish that thought? malcolm? >> yes. can you hear me? >> yes, we got you. >> this tactic is pretty old. it's just only in the last three or four years, it transited itself from palestine as a hamas palestinian authority tactic into al qaeda and isis using it as a broad doctrinal approach
for anyone to carry out an act of terrorism. they were empemphasizing, do it with weapons that are free, zero value attacks. just grab your car and drive into an individual. or grab a knife or, in this case, a hammer, and attack someone. but they specifically say attack, as a soldier of god, you must attack a policeman or a government worker. >> it was just -- it was just confirmed that it was a hammer used. >> right. >> i'd love for you to detail for us, it isot that they didn't choose to use a gun, because if they used a gun, an automatic weapon, it could have far more significant damage, but gun laws are stricter in europe. >> we saw this with the bataclan attacks. somehow, the isis team, which was extremely well organized, had managed to buy guns on the european black market. fully automatic weapons.
hand grenades. but for the average person in france, it's like england. the most you're going to get is a hunting shotgun or maybe a, you know, bolt action hunting rifle. it's not like belgium, which had this nexus of illegal gun traveling. it is -- >> is that -- >> just grab a hammer or kitchen knife. >> does that lead you to believe this attacker, you know, similar to what we saw in london, could have been inspired, not necessarily part of an organized group, as you mentioned, at the bataclan, where they had a series of automatic guns. >> is about to be eliminated from the face of the world in iraq and syria. they're getting individuals to
radic radicalize, inspire, carry out attacks. the target tells the tale. well, the target in this case was an individual policeman on patrol at a high value venue. notre dame. but if you can't take an attack against notre dame, you'd carry out the individual attack against a symbol of the state, so to speak, which is the policeman. you know, then you're required to die in those attacks. if this is, in fact, a terrorist attack. that'll develop over time. >> it is interesting, malcolm, this assailant, athemoment, according to what kelly cobiella has from the police, didn't die, which gives police a possible treasure-trove of information. theresa may after the london attacks, interestingly, pointed to the internet and said the tech companies need to do more because this is where this jihad spreads. it was an interesting comment because rather than being physical power centers, like syria or yemen or libya, the power centers can be virtual.
>> right. you know, and she has a point, but you cannot limit the internet. the harder you try, the further down it goes. i've written three books on how to break the ideology of these types of groups. it really comes down to doing what the arab states -- kuwait just did a piece of counterideolocounterei counter-ideology worldwide. they made a video for ramadan. isis was carrying out attacks during ramadan. saying, you know -- showing a suicide bomber preparing for an attack. he is confronted by the ghost of people who have been killed. it says that god is greater than you. what you're doing is, you know, betraying, you know, the faith itself. that breaks the link between their cult version of what they call islam and true islam. >> right.
>> and that has always been the nexus. that's the one thing that has not really been attacked. and the muslim world is only just starting to do that. the west has been leaning on weapons attacks and bombings, which creates more terrorists, rather than going hard after the religious -- fake religious basis of these islamic cults. >> it is an apocalyptic death cult, not just a cult. >> absolutely. >> that's why it is hard for westerners to empathize and get their head -- >> what do you mean by that? >> in isis and al qaeda theology, they believe that there is going to be a war and it is end times. >> right. >> it is going to be this battle between the forces of evil and the forces of good. they represent the forces of good. >> and, clearly, because it is important to disseminate, that identi ideology is not an ideology of a broader religion. it is a specific, narrow group. >> it is a cult.
it's an interpretation of a religion that's become a cult. >> in fact, this video from kuwait directly attacks the faith of the suicide bomber. and says, god is greater than you and your betrayal. they show those who have been injured in suicide bombings around the middle east. it shames the terrorists to come back to islam. only now are they starting to experiment with these things. could have done this ten years ago, and isis would have been broken at a spiritual level. these people wouldn't view this as legitimate. >> stand by for us. we want to bring in those viewers who have joined us, tell them what is going on. there's been an attack of some sort in paris. a suspect used a hammer to attack a police officer outside of notre dame cathedral in central paris. the officer is injured. apparently, the suspect is injured, but he was shot by
police in response. they've closed down the area around the notre dame. we want to go to london. kelly cobiella has the latest information for us. kelly, what do we know? >>. >> this all started about an hour ago now. there was a tweet originally from police in paris, warning people to stay away from the area around notre dame cathedral. telling some, according to witnesses, to stay in shops, stay inside the cathedral, because of a security incident at that very popular tourist location. we have just learned new information, new details about what might have happened an hour ago now in front of the cathedral. this is according to cristoph crispin, who is a representative for the paris police union. he said that a man with a backpack took a hammer outside -- out of his backpack. he struck a police officer in the chest and in the head. the police officer's partner then shot the attacker. that incident happening on the
square of notre dame cathedral. not inside the cathedral. not in any other building. but outside in that square. no further information on the nature of the attack. but he said, you know, just based on the fact that this was an attack on a police officer, at this very high profile location, lends itself to the idea it may be a terrorist attack. that's something for the prosecutor's office to investigate. one you see a largeolice presence. a very swift reaction from what we understand from witnesses on the part of the police after the shooting in the cathedral square at notre dame cathedral about an hour ago. from what we understand, the attacker was injured, was not killed, and was taken to a hospital for treatment. not clear if that status has changed, whether his con tigs
h -- condition has changed. as of 15 minutes ago, we understood that he had not been killed. again, just to reiterate, guys, this is not just being called a terrorist attack, but they are investigating it as such. >> it is being investigated by the counterterror group. >> as malcolm said, it was a police officer who was shot at a prominent place. we do have to examine it. >> a police officer was attacked, not shot. >> i'm sorry. attacked at a public place. we have to examine what all the possibilities are. we're looking at pictures. we see a large police presence. but we don't know whether or not it is terrorism. we certainly don't know whether isis is involved at all. but it comes on the same day that an offensive began against raqqah. isis is getting squeezed out of some of the last parts of territory it holds. raqqah is the isis capital. it is in northern syria. hans nichols is live at the pentagon. i'd imagine this has filtered up for people at the pentagon to examine what's going on in paris.
>> it is on every screen i've walked through here at the pentagon the last 20 minutes. everyone is watching events unfold on television. you get two views at the pentagon of the ability of isis to conduct external operations. the one view is you're going to see more of them. as isis loses physical territory inside their caliphate, you'll see more high profile or attempt at high profile terrorist attacks. the other view is that their territory shrinks, they're playing defense on so many levels. their communications is restricted and getting hit by so many bombs. in raqqah, there are 24 strikes last night by coalition air forces. they're getting hit so often, they actually don't have the time to plan and conduct external operations. so two views you get here. now, just to recap what happened overnight. you did have the final assault on raqqah. the difference with the assault on raqqah and the assault on mosul, which is still going on, is that mosul, they left the iraqis and coalition forces, an
escape route to the west. unclear why they did that. some people thought the iraqis wanted isis out of their country. they didn't care about exterminated or eradicating them. in raqqah, it is a different approach. the city is completely encircled. the language from secretary mattis on down is annihilatanni. kill every isis fighter they possibly can. that's the big difference between iraq and syria. no confirmation from the pentagon that this was a terror attack but officials are watching it closely. >> stephanie, one thing about this death cult i was talking about, this apocalyptic death cult isis built, the final battle between good and evil is supposed to take place in northern syria, which is why raqqah is important to them. it was porn it was important for isis to control territory. that's why this attack on raqqah is important. if they lose that, a lot of the
apocalyptic myth falls apart. >> why is this time period important, the fact it was in the middle of ramadan? >> it is the holiest month in ism. ice d isther groups have said that it is -- i don't know what it is -- you get more blessings, more good things come to you if you attack people during ramadan. they asked people to take on attacks individually which is why, again, we don't know whether this is terrorism. we don't know if it is inspired. when these things happen, particularly in ramadan, particularly the type of attack that malcolm nance says this, where you have anything you have with you and attack someone who is a representative of the government, it is natural for us to examine whether or not this may be terrorism. it is not just that because somebody attacked a police officer, it happens all around the world all the time and it is never good, but that's why we are paying this sort of attention to it. >> i want to bring in chris dickey back in. foreign editor of the "daily beast" live in paris on the scene. chris, from your vantage point, is anything changed?
>> no. they're moving some of the police around. actually, the bells of notre dame cathedral are ringing very loud and clear right now. people are quite calm. a lot of the area is roped off. there's a cordon around notre dame and several blocks up the street. but i'd say things are really quite calm and the police are completely in control. >> chris, the police have said that the operation is over at this point. are you seeing anything around -- unfortunately, talk to you in paris, you've got familiarity with how things have changed in paris now that there are police and military who walk through the streets sometimes with large guns. is the situation looking like there's an increased police presence in the areas around you because this is a touristy place and it's coming to the end of the day? >> well, there's an increased police presence right now because it is still in the aftermath of an incident and
they really haven't redeployed yet. if, indeed, they will. looks like they're redeploying right now. but we're talking about dozens of heavily armed offics with assault rifles, riot gear, armored and ready to fight, if that's the occasion. but it doesn't look like that's going to be the occasion. normally, in a place like this, however, for the last couple of years at least, you would see heavily armed police. not in this quantity, but you'd see them and you'd see heavily armed soldiers patrolling. i live in a quiet neighborhood, and there are heavily armed soldiers patrolling there virtually all the time. it is not unusual to see people in full battle dress, ready to fight, moving through the streets of paris. i think people, frankly, are glad to see them. >> these are tense times. thank you all so much. we are continuing to monitor this situation. an attack that took place in the
square just outside notre dame cathedral in paris. we're going to take a quick break. we'll be back with more in a few. you are watching msnbc. stay with us. got it. rumor confirmed. they're playing. -what? -we gotta go. -where? -san francisco. -when? -friday. we gotta go. [ tires screech ] any airline. any hotel. any time. go where you want, when you want with no blackout dates. [ muffled music coming from club. "blue monday" by new order. cheers. ] [ music and cheers get louder ] the travel rewards credit card from bank of america. it's travel, better connected. the travel rewards credit card from bank of america. for 10 years my tempur-pedic has adapted to my weight and shape. so i sleep deeply and wake up ready to perform. now through june 11th, save $600 when you buy select tempur-pedic adjustable mattress sets. find your exclusive retailer at tempurpedic.com.
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>> hit him in the chest and the head. >> the police officer's partner then shot the assailant. both the police officer and the assailant, last we heard, are injured, and were transported to hospital. the police say that the operation is now over, but french counterterrorism police have taken over the investigation. there has been no declaration that it is terrorism, but counterterrorism police are on the case. >> police took action quickly. the image on the left is rather telling. soon after the attack took place, the police made their way inside. remember, this cathedral is a tourist destination, also an active place of worship. you can see people inside the church there raising their hands, following police request. the police obviously looking for other possible attackers. wanting to know what people have on them. to ali's point, the attacker used a hammer. they clearly want to know what else could be in the building. since then, nothing has happened. we've spoken to eyewitnesss on the scene who have said, while
things are quiet, they do feel safe. i want to bring in kelly cobiella back in from our london bureau. you have more information? >> yeah, just one more quick item, stephanie. we understand from police that the people who are inside the cathedral will be allowed to slowly leave once they've been checked. that's suggesting then the police will be searching and taking a close look at everyone inside that cathedral as they slowly allow them to leave. not clear if they've gotten some sort of information, if perhaps this one attacker said something, indicated somehow that there may be a further attack and that's what's leading them to check all of those people inside the cathedral. but the statement from police, fairly brief, just saying those people will slowly be allowed to leave notre dame cathedral after they've been searched. steph? >> moments ago, we were joined by hans nichols at the pentagon, who is watching this situation
closely. we know h.r. mcmaster was scheduled to be meeting with the president -- >> at that time. >> let's bring in peter alexander, joining us with an update from the white house. have you heard anything specific from the white house, from sean spicer, any comments here? >> yeah, ali and stephanie, good morning to you. we are just now hearing from officials here at the white house. we don't yet know whether the president has been briefed or alerted about the situation takes place in paris. having just spoken to national security officials here, they tell us they are presently coordinating with the u.s. embassy in paris right now and that they're communicating through all the other appropriate channels right now to get any additional updates they can, as they monitor the incident taking place overseas in paris. obviously, this comes in the wake of the attack that took place in london, one that certainly got the president's attention, as he tweeted about it frequently in the aftermath. saying it was another example of the u.s. need to be strong and vigilant, in his words, the need to be tough. even this morning, he was tweeting about isis claiming
responsibility for an attack that took place in melbourne, australia. obviously, this is something the president campaigned on. being tough on terror. while the circumstances in this situation, we still don't know about, it is something he and his aides will be keeping a close eye on over the course of the afternoon. >> we'll stay in contact with you peter. if you get anything else, let us know immediately. the image you're seeing on the left of your screen is chris dickey's camera from the "daily beast." are you shooting on your phone, chris? is that what we're seeing? chris dickey, can you hear us? i think we're getting chris's feed, which may be why we can't talk to him. he is showing us the scene in front of him. while we were on the phone with him, police were pushing him farther and farther away while they spread out the cordon. police are not done yet.
>> ali, you were in paris a few weeks ago. can you speak to what -- how tense things are there, what security is like? >> it was interesting to me, in that people were carrying on the way they normally do in paris. it is an outdoor place. cafe life was there in tact. but there were not only armed police with large guns, which was not typical in paris, but there would be places -- like from a side street, you passed through, they were gates and everybody had to go through under the eye of police. they'd check people's bags, just walking on the street from a side street because it is a soft target. they wanted to ensure you weren't walking with a bomb. >> what's interesting, this attacker used a hammer. in theory, you could have your bag reviewed and have a hammer in it and it'd be acceptable. it is a household item. >> to malcolm nance's point. to some, when inspired to attack, they are instructed on websites and things like that to use whatever you have available
to you. when you're in a city full of cars, you don't nicely think of a car as a weapon. as we've seen repeatedly, not only in israel but in germany, in nice, the idea of weapons, cars and cars, vehicles, trucks as weapons, it is hard to harden your public sights against everything that could be a weapon. every hammer, every car. that is what the difficulty is in overcoming this. we don't know if it is terrorism or isis, but this is crude. so you can only do so much damage if you're now resorting to only the kinds of weapons that no one will see. >> if, for example in the attack that took place in london on saturday night, in the bar, if they had guns and not knives -- >> it would have changed the situation dramatically.
they had make the bomb vests. they were trying to create intimidati intimidation, but in the end they had knives. >> extraordinary, they would, per se have them loaded up, but they didn't have the tools to do that. i want to talk a bit about the other big story today, the georgia woman auccused of leakig a top secret nsa document containing russia's details to hack the election. coming up, the top four things you need to know from this brand new nsa leak. over here! over here! no! (dog barking) whoever threw it has to go get it. not me! somebody will get it... ♪ (dog barking) anyone canream. making it a reality is theard part. from the b-2 to the upcoming b-21,
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with accident forgiveness your rates won't go up just because of an accident. switching to allstate is worth it. all right, we want to update youi you on breaking news. police are checked about the notre dame ka ahead cathedral an attacks a police officer with a hammer. people that were stuck in the
cathedral after the incident are now slowly able to leave after being checked. the french counter-terrorism office is investigating the incident. >> no one has taken responsibility. there is no official or unofficial claim by a terror group at this point. clearly very serious situation. >> and a tense time, which is why we're -- we have extra eyes on this. >> the attack that took place in london over the weekend, in manchester, but right now we're going to turn to a story here in the u.s. we're continuing with the first, under the trump administration, really, the first arrest of someone accused of leaking classified information to the media. reality leigh winner is accused of leaking a top secret nsa document containing new details about russia's effort to hack the election. they say that she admitted to printing out the document and
mailing it to an beyond media outlet. we learned it is the intercept, and while testifying before a senate committee, john kelly was asked about this report and here is his reaction. >> because of the allegations and the thing that's have been allegedly released are so highly classified, i would not want to confirm or deny anything in there. i think we just have to wait r -- for the investigation. >> let me tell you what was in the report that has everyone so bothered about it. the hackers are part of a specialized team within russian military intelligence. number two, russian hackers breached at least one american voter vendor, and they tried to
hijack with kpcomputer hijackin malwear, and there is no indication that cybertacks had an effect on the outcome of the election. let's find out alyle more about this right now with ken delanian joining us now. this arrest took place very quickly after this was posted on the internet, how did the government find her? >> it wasn't difficult. the government was approached by the news organization, the intercept, with a copy of the document which is responsible for them todo, but once they had a copy, the were able to notice from markings on it that it had been printed at a secret facility. they realize that only six people had printed out this document when they searched their systems and they investigated the e-mailing of those six people and only this woman had apparently e-mailed with the intercept.
>> who is she? >> she is a 25-year-old contractor apparently a linguist who is an expert in languages of afghanistan. she is unremarkable in terms of a profile at the nsa, but they went to her and she confessed to mailing the document to the intercept. there have always been spies that betrayed their country for money. washington power players that leaked for their benefit. she is part of a new class that see themselves as whistle-blowers. but the government and large segments of the government doesn't see it that way. >> parse that out for us, if they see their actions as those of whistle-blowers, patriots, heros, how does it differ in the eyes of the law.
>> the government's position is a 25-year-old contractor cannot make the decision to disclose lawfully classified information to the public whether or not she thinks it is important for the public to see or not. there was things they asked the intercept to redact and they agreed. on the fur face it it doesn't seem materially sensitive, but it is tough to see where we see it. thank you for wchghis hour of msnbc live. right now we're going to burning you to dc for "andrea mitchell reports." >> we're following another possible terror incident in europe in this hour. he pulled a knife from his b