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tv   MTP Daily  MSNBC  August 22, 2017 2:00pm-3:00pm PDT

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>> all right. a table for the ages. thank to you all of you charlie sikes, donna edwards, peggy noons and -- mtp daily starts right now #hermes scarf. and if it is tuesday, president trump did about to hold his first rally since charlottesville. tonight fired up in phoenix. after calling for unity last night -- >> we cannot remain a force for peace in the world if we are not at peace with each other. >> president trump is hinding into a tinderbox at tonight's rally. will he light a match? plus all about that base. why all that talk about calamity and could may be just that the. and political fallout from the about-face on afghanistan.
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>> my original instinct was to pull out, but all my life i have heard that decisions are much different when you sit behind the desk in the oval office. this is "mtp daily" and it starts right now. good evening, i'm katy tirr in new york in for chuck todd. prepare for the worst, hope for the best. you're looking live at the scene outside of the phoenix convention center, where president trump is holding a campaign-style rally in just a few hours. officials there are bracing for some potential large protests tonight. organizer are hoping for a show the force against the president, especially wake of his charlottesville comments. thousands of demonstrators, some pro-trump, some anti-trump and
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antifascists are expected tonight. to call this combustible is probably an union statement. the president just landed in yuma where he will meet with members of the marine corps and border patrol. moments ago, he told my colleague nicolle wallace that this was the wrong time for president trump to visit. the mayor also wrote in "the washington post" -- america is hurting largely because trump has doused racial tensions with gasoline. with hess planned visit to phoenix tonight, i fear the president may be looking to light a match. there was fear the match might be pardonening joe arpaio, the controversial sheriff who is facing jail time for violating a court order stemming from a racial profiling case. but moments ago the white house said he would not, at least not
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today. tension from what happened in charlottesville are still raw, just ask the president's allies in congress and the white house who crisscrossed the air waves in the past 24 hours. >> i do believe that he messed up in his comments on tuesday when it -- it sounded like a more equivocation or at the very least moral ambiguity. >> what were you thinking last week when you saw the president blame both sides for the violence, when he said that very fine people were marching with the white supremacists? >> i picked up the phone and had a private conversation with the president about charlottesville and it was taken very well. >> how did you we thanked by david duke, and not be completely on the wrong side of the issue. >> i can't ask for the views of that person or their opinions. the president disavowed david duke long ago. southwest border states have
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been a flash point for mr. trump in the past. there were protests when then candidate trump visited arizona. back in may of 2016, police threw smoke devices and used pepper spray on crowds in albuquerque after protests near a trump event is there turned violent. that was not an isolated event. what happens tonight? last night mr. trump stuck to the script, surrounded by military professionals. he focused on a topic that unites a lot of republicans and he called for unity. tonight is the kind of event where he often does not stick to the script. he'll be surrounded by hard-core supporters in a state where both senators have railed against him and he's gone after them. instead of calling for unity, he may call for pardoning joe arpaio, if not tonight, maybe down the line. stephanie gosk is in phoenix surrounded by the protesters and some of the supporters. stephanie?
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>> reporter: hey, katy, so far we haven't see protesters, but we have trump supporters. they started lining up at 4:00, and the heat in phoenix is absolutely no jock. a nonscientific poll their here, a lot of them are first timers for rallies. a few of them attended that 2015 rally that really launched, as you remember, donald trump's campaign. they talk about his message in that rally, some of them who went just because they were curious, talk about his message on immigration, and how that resonated with them. that was what turned them from just curies bystanders into supporters of donald trump. also interesting from this crowd, they are unwavering in their support. asked what gra i had he deserves, he gets an "a." everyone we talked to. alternatively, you can think about the local officials in this city. consider this. you have a mayor of phoenix who
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has repeatedly come out publicly and said president trump, please do not visit our city. after seeing the scenes in charlottesville, virginia, they were concerned about violence in this city, the mayor clearly concerned, asked him not to show up, and you have certainly an incredible presence here of police and security and barricades, a lot of law enforcement in place. we still haven't seen the protesters. however, they're supposed to gather in about an hour or so. we won't know what the sense on the street is until they show up. katy? >> i remember five hours ago until the president takes the stage. as for of 2015 rally that stephanie was just mentioning, i was at that rally. there were a lot of curious folks, and a lot of folks left saying they were fans of donald trump, the candidate. thank you, stephanie gosk. i'm joined by chris collins of new york. as you know, he was the first member of congress to back trump
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back during the campaign. thank you so much for joining us. >> good to be with you, katy. >> wonderful to see you, you saw stephanie surrounded by supporters there in phoenix, arizona, ahead of donald trump's rally there tonight. there are a lot of protests expected. the mayor of phoenix is saying don't come to our town, don't come right now. the tensions are too inflamed. they are expecting some large-scale protests. this comes on the heels of charlottesville and all of the controversy surrounding the president's comments about that. they were talking at one point about potentially pardoning joe arpaio, the president. we're hearing he's not going to be doing that tonight. given that he said the country will heal from charlottesville over the weekend, i'm trying to understand how a campaign-style rally in a red state in a town that a lot of voters out there really liked the president, how will that help the country heal?
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>> katy, the president has been calling for unity. let's face it, you know, for nine months since the morning he was announced as our next president of the united states, the left lost the election, i would use the term they have lost their minds ever since. they've been protesting for nine months, certainly seven months since being sworn into office. too many have said he's not our president. donald j. trump is president for all of americans. he's our commander in chief. he has the weight of the world on the shoulders. he's assembled the best cabinet assembled in history, making america great again. the president can do what he's doing. he can call for unity under first amendment rights, people will protest, as was reported earlier just a minute ago on your show, hess supporters,
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myself include, do give him an "a" for what we've accomplished, the number of bills he's bind into law, but it's following on deaf ears for some who will be protesting tonight, i'm sure. he enjoying rallies, his supporters want to show they are behind him, and while the left is not and the country is divided, all anyone can do is their best. that's what dompd j. trump is doing, calling for, respecting first amendment rights and say we have no place for violence at rallies, and that is not directed at any one group, but it's peaceful demonstrations is what the first amendment is all about. >> congressman, you say the president haus called for unity. he as certainly called for unity. can you tell me one thing he has done to reach out to the other side? >> when you say reach out to the other side, you know, it's a two-way street. >> but what has he done to reach
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out? what legislation has he proposed? what blue state has he gone to? what blue city has he gone to? what democrats has he met with in private to get things done? tell me one thing he's done to reach out to the other side in this country? >> he hayes had democrat senators into the white house time and again, early on, talking about health care, attempting -- >> in what way did he reach out? give me one way he reached out other than a conversation? >> it starts with conversation, and he sways shut down immediately by senator schumer and the others, in saying that they weren't going to support anything called a repeal of obamacare. they worked to put more money into the individual marketplace, but that was it. at which point he had no choice, but to turn to the republicans, mitch mcconnell, paul ryan. we in the house sent a pretty darn good repeal and replace
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that didn't get through the senate, but it takes two people and senator schumer -- >> senator schumer said he would work on infrastructure. that hasn't come up. >> bun they he said he wouldn't support private/public partnerships, which we had might be a third of the infrastructure projects. >> i'm personally hopeful. >> why has he not gone to a blue state? why has he not r50e67d out to democratic voters or voters who didn't vote for him? >> i was with him on air force one down to long island for a great speech as he focused on ms-13. the streets were lined. >> that was a district where the voters voted for him. they voted for him in ha county. he called for the police there to rough up a blue city in a blue state. he called for police there to rough up those who are arrested
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something he had a ton of pushback from. >> no, no. >> wee is he not going to shaltsville? after all, as he said he has a house there. >> i'm certainly not in charge of his schedule. i was there for the speech. he made a comment that was taken completely out of context when he talked about the absolute deplorable behavior, inhuman behavior of ms-13, and he made the comment at some point, you know, if somebody is getting in a police car, maybe you're not going to put your hand on their head. that wasn't calling for the police to rough them up. it was said in a context that was taken completely utterly out of context. when he said it, i knew exactly what the left media would -- >> it wasn't the left media. police chiefs around the country said don't do that. it wasn't the left media. >> it was taken out of context, katy. it was a comment, and i knew exactly how it would be played in the press and it was.
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if you weren't there, i can tell you, that was not the thrust of his speech. he was directing his comments on the absolute inhuman behavior of ms-13 butchering young girls, trying to take over all of the gangs across the united states, just to terrorize our neighborhood. it was in that context that he somewhat glibly said, you know maybe we don't have -- >> should the president be talking glibly in that way? >> he was making a point to the police that was there. clearly it was taken out of context after the fact, and there it is. >> given how he's so frequently, as you say, taken out of context, do you think he might watch his words a little more? >> we do all have to be care form of our words, and the president speaks very plainly, whether it's through his tweets or otherwise. in some cases there's been clarifications made and, you
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know, the press won't give him a break. he has certainly never supported david duke. he's condemned neonazism, yet people keep going back as those that's not the case. he because he didn't use the exact same phraseology, and then when he finally clarifies it, they won't give a break on that. >> david duke came out and applauded him for his comments of the that's got to be disconcerting to anyone westbound the republican party or the president himself, when a white supremacist comes out and says, i like what you said. >> david duke is not someone that anyone supports. the president does not. you can only do your best. donald jurks trump is dos his best. people want to take it out of context and say david duke is somebody that speaks for the president, which is absolutely not the case. i know the president is very
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frustrated. he's doing what he can for america, as he pointed out with afghanistan. we're not in a nation building, but by god, he's going after the terrorism. he ace called on pakistan, who we give a lot of aid to. >> looking out for north korea, and all anyone can do is do their best. i would ask the left, who i know were very disappointed when hillary clinton was not elected, give the guy a break. he is our president for the next 3 1/2 years. he's doing what he can, whether it's, again afghanistan or north korea. when he said to work behind the desk in the on the floor office is very sobering, very different from standing in front of the desk, he takes the job
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seriously. he has great advisers, general mattis had a major part in the speech yesterday, what we have to do to fight terrorism, and call on pakistan to do their part. >> congressman collins, thanks for being with us. >> good to be with you. have a great die. susan del persia, jonathan al terr and beth fuey. beth, give me what you thought about that interview. >> a lot to chew over. as you know, katy, from many of these shows trying to book republicans to come on and defend the president in the wake of those remarks, congressman collins, good for him. he's an old friend, he supported the president through and through, and he's talking about what those voters that stephanie gosk spoke to, say give him a
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chance. that's a message, but it's clear the president realized he better step up and start unifying people he said it last night, let's come together as one. he could have an opportunity tonight in phoenix in front of all those supporters to say the same thing. it's a real test for him. the words of the president matter. >> they do. >> in saying come together as one country he. there was a lot of questions whether he will leave the prompter. after all, he does love the roar of the crowd and arizona is a place that can get rowdy. does he need to just appeal to his base at this point? >> it seems like a two-part event, the speech last night followed by the really tonight.
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now to round 2. anything he did positive last night has a good chance of being dissolved this evening. the headlines for the rest of the week should have been president trump enacting afghanistan strategy. >> why the campaign-style rally? is it i'm not going to cede to steve bannon on afghanistan? >> i think it's a carrot and a stick. if you do something presidential, we'll reward you with a rally. >> it's not a carrot, but comfort food. >> well put. >> this is his comfort zone. this is hishis demagoguery zone. you cite hundreds of examples the i put this as very small he
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will be responsible tonight. he will go off, he'll respond to the crowd. these are people like the congressman who think he's gotten an "a." >> not even close to the majority of the country. >> this is something that people don't understand when they see these yelling crowds oh, trump is so popular. george mcgovern the night before he lost 49 states in 1972, jimmy carter before the reagan landslide. >> that's a common campaign thing to do. that's what you do when you know you're going to lose. >> before any election, you can go to parts of the country and the big lose are will have huge unbelievably enthusiastic crowds. they don't mean anything in assessing the political popularity of the president. he is deeply unpopular. >> but going off script, you know, chris collins talked about the rally on long island.
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the big problem with that rally was the former police chief was in jail for beating up a suspect he. >> he goes after ms-13, but not n neonazis. good point. i was speaking to the gop chair a moment ago, and he said when it comes to senators flakes and the potential challengeser kellie ward, that the state party isn't going to take sides. that's remarkable. nothing going to take sites of the republican incumbent aren't and we know senator flake is one of the most endangered republicans next year. donald trump would love to see him taken out. i want to see how much and if he goes after senator flake. president trump has tweeted favorably about kelly ward who wants to primary jeff flake.
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will he use it as a rally to drum up support? that would be extraordinary. talk about ruins unity, not only could he not bring the country together, he's dividing his own country, and handing over a gift. susan, jon than and beth, stay with us, and stay with nbc all evening for continuing coverage and analysis of the rally in phoenix, one i surprisingly won't be at. hmm. as president trump goes west, will he go offscript? president trump commits to keep troops in afghanistan, but offering little specifics on strategy.
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welcome back. prompt is on the ground in arizona, the further west he's been as president, just his second trip west of the mississippi, as he took
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arizona's 11 electoral votes in november, and made multiple stops in the state's capital during the campaign. >> a poll just came out, and i'm tied with jeb bush. i said, how could i be tied with this guy? he's terrible. he's terrible. i feel like a supermodel except times ten. i'm on the biggest covers i don't eknow about it i can't even read the story. if i did i wouldn't get any work done. >> we'll build a great wall along the southern border and mexico will pay for the wall. believe me. >> he's a good man. he was one of the first endorsers of donald trump. vote for sheriff joe. oh, stand up, the memories. you see we'll find out when it
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. my original instinct was to pull out. historically i like following my instincts, but all my life i've heard that decisions are much different when you sit behind the desk in the oval office. i will not say when we are going to attack, but attack we will. welcome back. that was the president admitting something we often don't hear. he changed his mind on how to handle the longest war. the speech was heavy a rhetoric, but light on specifics.
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all immediately praised the speer, but got backlash, and called vague and overdue by democrats. joining me now is senator ben cardin of maryland, the ranking democrat on the senate foreign relations committee. thank you for joining us. it's good to be with you. i was pleased to hear about afghanistan and pan stack and india all together. pakistan needs to do more to -- india can play an important role. i was disappointed he didn't mention russia whose activities are not helping the united states. a winning strategy is too prevent afghanistan from becoming a safe haven for terrorists. that requires a diplomatic
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surge. we need to get all the players together to how we can get a circumstance in afghanistan, where they can control the safety in their own country that's a winning strategy. i'm not -- >> we think potential from the report about 4,000 more troops does that mean negotiating with darlords or goring with some of the more palatable leaders in the taliban in order to find some sort of peace? >> yes, it does. afghanistan is not going to be a country like the united states. it won't have a type of government that we have. it's got to be right for the people of afghanistan. we need the taliban leaders at the table to that you can about how the tribal areas will be
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handled that will be save for the -- that's our objective. in the end it's a breeding ground, we have no expectations that they'll develop a society similar to our western democracy. what we want to do is make sure we have a place that's safe for their own people. >> senator, this is the third president to deal with afghanistan. does it mean we are always for the foreseeable future going to be having troops there? >> well, i am concerned about that. we know that american troops are still in south korea. we don't want to see a situation where in afghanistan there's a permanent american troop presence. i am concerned about the president's decision to increase the number of troops in afghanistan. i do believe the way to solve this problem is to get pakistan, india and other countries to join ugh to get the warring
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parties together to have a workable government that would not allow for terrorist organizations to find safe haven. that's achievable through hard work and diplomacy, not through american troop presence. the president did something we almost never see him too. yesterday he admitted he went into the office with one idea and pull everything out afghanistan. he said when you become president, realize that certain things are not as easy as they appear. he changed his mind and ended up listening to his generals. ultimately, it seems, sending more troops to afghanistan. with you you surprised to hear the president admit that he changed his mind? >> it was refreshing to hear him say that. of course, we do want him to rely on the advice he's getting from all sources, not just from our generals, but from our experts in the state department.
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we want him to immediate with -- that's what we had to be. we said to see the president agent president ia and that's a heath heathy he also said rear not in the nation building business anylonger. do you believe that's the right approach? >> no, i don't. we don't want to build a nation of afghanistan that looks like a western democracy. what we want to do is help the afghan people develop a government that's honest, that can control violence, that will avoid that requires us to
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consume in, so i think it's important to they -- does this administration have the credibility to get others involved in that way? >> when you look at the budget requests, it's hard to see how they do have because they are cutting most of these programs that are essentially for peace in afghanistan. the president has challenged because of his actions senator ben cardin, thank you for joining us. still ahead, numbers game. if you're waiting for president trump's approval ratings to crater, you may have to wait a little longer. ♪
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still ahead, why all that talk about president trump's collapsing poll numbers may be just that -- talk. bur first here's hampton pearson with the cnbc market wrap. >> we had stalks closing higher on wall street on hopes that key lawmakers have found common ground on tax render. the nasdaq added 84 points. >> boeing on news the company
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welcome back. we talk a lot about president trump's dire poll numbers. just this weekend new polls from nbc news and marist showed approval in the mid 30s in three states critical to his victory -- michigan, pennsylvania and wisconsin. we have also seen plenty of polls where he's closer to 40%, the latest "wall street journal" poll found in june. those kinds of numbers would be disastrous for any president, especially one only eight months into his first term, but of course this presidential sit is anything but conventional. miss approval numbers look awfully similar to what they
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were when he was a candidate. the latest daily gallup tracking numbers show president trump with 35% approval and 59% disapproval, but gallup's final pre-election numbers 36% favorable, 61% unfavorable. yet he still won. so our friend steve kornacki wrote a piece published today -- not so fast, which looks why we should look at the numbers in a different way. steve, i'm sorry i'm a little cotton-mouthed hribal now. i muffled up your intro. when i say don't look at the poll numbers. he still won. >> i think there's a challenge here for the media, for people who analyze these things, for anybody who wants to talk about
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the policy number. one is i think it's okay and healthy for us to admit we don't know what these numbers mean. we have a pretty good sense looking back at a clinten or reagan. we can compare between them, you know, those presidencies were one thing. this is a very different presidency. you think there are a lot of different possibilities here. there are possibilities they numbers are as catastrophic as they look, but maybe we have to grapple with the possibilities they're not fearly as -- >> i think we will find out, though. like we're going to check evidence, certainly over 18, 20/20, but i think we have to
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have an open anyone. the poll sample, how does it different from the poll sample up to the election. you look at his favorable numbers there. again, it's pretty much the same story. this is a shrinking base, even republicans are abandoning him. he's not close to winning. that was the narrative. it turned out the numbers we were looking at to create those narratives, they were sort of putting us in the wrong direction. >> just liking -- and holding their nose, as you see a bert candidates, will the numbers mean more? >> i think we have to admit it's a possible.
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we no that donald trump got an unusually high, maybe history high, who dent like him, didn't think -- >> or%ed by him. >> and still voted for him. was that just because he look at hillary clinton? i don't like her elgts. it would be, i think that's possibility, but i think there are other possibilities. >> are the critiques of the media working for him? >> one of the elements we have to -- is president think of "saturday night live." think of celebrities, all of this. i have never seen them nor universally engaged politically than last year than they are now. politics and culture have merged in a way we haven't seen as much. donald trump is central not just to our politics, but culture. culture is pushing back with incredible ferocity. his critics will say that's
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absolutely justified. the analytical question i have is what effect does it have when so much does it create a backlash and could that be -- yes or no. can you remember a consideration with an adult that doesn't -- some extended family over the weekend. they all want to talk about it, and they didn't used to be that political. >> i cannot talk about a conversation that doesn't mention his are his name. wow. steve kornacki, happy birthday, my friend. >> thank you very much. >> ripe old age of 25. >> i like that. the russia investigation -- yes, it's still happening -- rolls on. u too, unnecessary er . and hey, unmanaged depression, don't get too comfortable. we're talking to you, cost inefficiencies and data without insights. and fragmented care-
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when itrust the brandtburn, doctors trust. nexium 24hr is the number one choice of doctors and pharmacists for their own frequent heartburn. and all day, all night protection. when it comes to heartburn, trust nexium 24hr. welcome back. the investigation into russian meddling in the 2016 election is rolling on, even if it doesn't top the headlines, glen simpson, the cofounder of fusion gps and one of the people behind the so-called trump dossier that included salacious accusations against president trump appeared before the staff on the senate judiciary committee for transcribed testimony behind closed doors today. chuck grassley subpoenaed asked for a public hearing, but simp so i said he would invoke his
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fifth amendment rights. we'll be right back with some blockbuster reporting from "new york times" about drama between president trump and senator mcconnell. you're going to want to hear about this. stay with us. when you have something you love, you want to protect it. at legalzoom, our network of attorneys can help you every step of the way. with an estate plan including wills or a living trust that grows along with you and your family. legalzoom. legal help is here.
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you don't let anything lkeep you sidelined. come on! that's why you drink ensure. with 9 grams of protein, and 26 vitamins and minerals... for the strength and energy, to get back to doing what you love. ensure, always be you. time for the lid. the new york times just posted the blockbuster article. trump and mcconnell locked in a cold war threatening the gop agenda. the panel is back to talk about this. let's read a bit from this article. in a series of tweets this month mr. trump criticized mr. mcconnell publicly and berated him into a phone call that quickly evolve into a profane shouting match. even more animated about what he intimated was the senate leaders refusal to protect him from
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investigations of russian interference. he also said his refusal to protect him. never mind. ignore me for the rest of that. he's going after mitch mcconnell still. he's got a party that's not on the same page. he has to raise the debt ceiling when he comes back. they are talking about taxes. how do they get this done? >> i think the only way anything will end up getting done is if you have the leadership in the house and senate working together and just offering it up to donald trump. he can sign it or he can't. he probably will because he needs some kind of legislative win. he's not part of the legislative process at this point. he's just slamming everybody. >> mcconnell said he was bewildered about trump's presidency. he was also horrified about charlottesville and horrified about what the president said
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about it. you have folks like collins coming on our air and defending the president. you have house republicans defending the president and you have the senate majority leader saying this guy is refusing to understand how politics works, how government works, how getting things done works. >> speaking of collins, we had susan collins, a different collins come on our air yesterday to say if she didn't know if donald trump would be the nominee in 2020. that's one of mitch mcconnell's senators right there. there's a lot of other juicy tidbits in that story about how trump misplayed his hand with so many republican senators. that's contributing to this problem that mcconnell is having with him. he just doesn't understand how to put a coalition together even within his own party. he doesn't get that fighting with people that are supposed to carry his legislative agenda will not work since the democrats a united against it. nobody can figure out what trump is trying to do here. the base does not like the
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establishment leaders of congress, ryan or mbattle, the e and trump. >> we don't whknow what the ord is. bannon is saying it's war. >> if you're mitch mcconnell would you be thefnervous? >> a little bit about the fire power of breitbart. fox might have to make a bit of a decision. you have warfare within the republican party. in arizona you have mcconnell supporting the incumbent jeff flake and you have trump supporting the challenger in that primary. we haven't seen that, literally, since 1938 when franklin roosevelt was trying to purge disloyal democrats. roosevelt was much more popular than trump and it didn't work for him. people didn't like seeing the president getting involved. >> it was a different time though. >> i'm not sure that this isn't
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one of those rules of politics that holds. i don't think voters like it when presidents aren't neutral in party primaries. >> there's one other thing when you look at this white house. donald trump only has kelly ann conway in his white house is a political person. all the other political people have left. he also has mike pence and his chief of staff but there's a small political operation to run whether it's your legislation or primaries. it will be a very tiring job for donald trump to go after every sitting senator or member of congress that he has to fight with. >> we forget how stupid charlottesville was politically. set aside the moral issue. people say trump has a great feel for the base. as a politician he's failing. >> yes or no is this a gift to democrats? >> democrats haven't capitalized on any of this. i'm going to say it's a gift but they probably won't use it.
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>> thank you very much. after the break, saluting campaign trail legend. this is a story about mail and packages.
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in case you missed it, it's not every day you see us paying tribute to a reporter from a rival tv network. tonight i want to give a shout out to fox news reporter carl cameron who is retiring. campaign carl as he's known was one of my much needed rocks during the 2016 campaign.
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he grew up in new hampshire and started his career there and he is still beloved as one of their locals. he's been covering national political campaigns for decades and every campaign reporter out there probably has some story to tell about him. at one point he got me out of a hairy situation, literally. we were in florida when the secret service tried to confiscate my dry sham piano. they said i could light it on fire. they tried to take carl's hair spray and he said you taking way my hair spray is like me taking away your gun. it stinks since i probably could have used the nobody cares that you're tired advice a whole lot earlier. carl, after everything, i don't know if it was this last campaign that did it, but if it
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did let me be the first to say, i understand. that's all for tonight. we'll be back with more mtp daily tomorrow. the beat with ari melber starts now. mitch mcconnell dropping a bomb questioning whether the trump administration can even be salvaged. bad news for donald trump. break fing from the new york times. leaks that trump's relationship with the top republican in washington has, quote, disentegrated. it comes as he's faced criticizing for flip-flopping on afghanistan. trump has few details on his plan for more boots on the ground and his rush to rally has critics say he's more comfortable as candidate than commander.

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