tv Hardball With Chris Matthews MSNBC September 18, 2017 4:00pm-5:00pm PDT
can e-mail me. that does it for our show tonight on "the beat" and up next is "hardball" with chris matthews. caught on camera, let's play "hardball." good evening i'm chris matthews in washington in an exclusive report in the new york times we learned that it's taking on the president's legal team. we learned there was an ongoing debate in the west wing. we came from ken vogel who
showed the lawyers at lunch loudly discussing details of the russia investigation at blt steak in washington while he sat at the next table. he was watching them and listening to them. anyway, you can see that restaurant is a block from the white house. it's next to also the new york times washington bureau. as vogel describes it the debate over legal strategy has bitted cob against mcbegin. kob appears to be more cooperative with muller's investigation, in hopes of quickly ending the investigation. but cobb is putting heads with mcgahn who is worried about weakening the white house.
most notably they said he had documents locked in a safe. meanwhile, news reports, the trump's personal attorney, michael cohen will appear for an interview tomorrow before the senate committee. he'll likely be asked about the trump tower for moscow. we'll be joined by ken vogel in a minute. with me is high i did pressby. when you find out these two guys are arguing whether to give to mueller or not, talking about it outloud, you have to believe this guy ty cobb, with the weird mus tach, this guy must think if you follow the logic that trump is clean why else would he say give him all the document where
is the guy in the white house, who may know more, said no don't give him everything. >> you read into the story, which is so odd -- can i back up and say how completely comedic it is to do it in a restaurant blocks from the new york times and white house, saying we have documents locked in safe in front of a very well known "new york times" reporter who covers russia. he says that because he thinks there's nothing to the trump tower meeting itself, but he didn't say there was nothing to the broader investigation. he also said there was documents he didn't have access to because of the tension in the white house. while this may be a humorous type of thing that happened, the more troubling thing is that the type of tensions that have marked this white house are now infecting this legal team.
they can't afford to have that happen, chris. they are up against a 17-man bruiser army in bob mueller and what you're seeing is that same type of infighting that's plagued the other divisions of the white house. >> it reminds me, like so many aspects of the case, of water gate -- we have ken vogel. we have to go to ken vogel right now. the star of "candid camera" himself. tell us about the optics. you're sitting at the restaurant, you realize two of the kingpins of the president's legal defense team are there, tell us more. >> i was sitting there with a source having a lunch, and trying to pay attention a little bit to what the folks are saying, but i'm in conversation with the source. the source gets up up to leave. lunch is over, rather. he said are you coming? i said i'll sit here for a little bit and have a few more iced teas and, of course, i was
able to pick up these conversations about the sensitive information related to the legal strategy in the russia probe by sitting there and these folks having this indiscreet conversation. >> you report it's grown to the point where white house officials have expressed that colleagues may be wearing a wire to record confeversations. this is scary. people in the white house, according to your report, are afraid people are trying to talk to them by wiring them and giving them some dirt. >> that's right. and you have competing imperatives here. you have folks on the same side, that is they are all being looked at to-to-some extent by mueller and his prosecutors. but by the same technologicoken
same thing could be said for the lawyers representing members of the trump family and the president himself and the white house counsel. so what we have here is a disagreement over tactical issues, that is the production of documents but it's also spilled over into sort of personalty issues and you have a deep distrust and suspicion among folks to the point we overheard ty cobb saying some of the lawyers on his team might be spies for the white house counsel. obviously that doesn't show a smooth interaction among the legal teams. >> let's get back to the restaurant. you were at the next booth, next table. how did you take these this picture of these two? >> i was on my phone, while taking notes on the phone while
pretending to be surfing the internet or whatever to not attract attention. but i did hold the phone out at an angle in a way that i captured this photo. the goal was to document and also because i didn't recognize john dowd, the second lawyer. ty cobb is easily recognizable but john dowd isn't. so i sent the photo to the new york times and said who is this guy who appears to be part of the legal team. >> and they said that's john dowd, the president's outside lead attorney. and i thought my goodness, i'm getting a glimpse of what's happening on the legal team in real time. >> by the way, congratulations, these guys like dowd, donald trump's also right, donald
trump's always innocent, wonderful, blah, blah, blah, classic lawyer. the idea he didn't have to be bugged -- i want to get back to heidi. but what happened when trump heard his two lawyers were not bugged, nobody wiretapped them, he sat next to them and listened to them. he must say where have you been going to law school? what are you doing? what did he say when he found out about your reporting. >> we don't know about trump. we know that john kelly and don mcgahn were upset. they basically read them the riot act saying you can't talk about this information in the public context. the concern being not just tipping their hand through the press what their strategy is and tipping their hand to mueller but also a potential violation
of attorney-client privilege. >> heidi tell us what we don't know, one lawyer wants them to give a lot of paper to mueller, give them a little bit of hang out, like they said in the water gate days. the other suggests so me, that one lawyer thinks there's nothing to hide of any danger to the president. the other says there is something here we don't want the public to know, we don't want the prosecutor to know. >> they have different rolls here. >> is it possible that ty cobb doesn't know the trouble trump may be in. >> that's possible. he may be referring to information he didn't have. documents he didn't have that he suggested he wanted to produce to mueller. he referred to two documents that were in a safe. we don't know what they were, where they originated. but certainly it suggests that
cobb wanted to produce these, mcgahn did not. mcgahn feels his roll is not just to shift the investigation away from trump but rather represent the institution of the presidency and he is concerned that by producing documents without a thorough review of whether they could have presidential privilege apply to them and be withheld or redakted as a result, that he could be encouplering not just the trump administration in the future and its ability to assert privilege in this investigation or subsequent investigations, but even hamstring another president -- >> i'm a little bit incredulous. i never heard anybody in the trump administration worry about the institution, the future presidents. do you believe that don mcgahn
is worried about future presidents. >> there is another fact at play, that is that don mcgahn has been with trump since the beginning. that is who sally yates went to and warned the administration about michael flynn. he was also privy to a number of incidents including the drafting of the comey firing letter, including the explanation of don junior's trump tower meeting. so there's another factor that don mcgahn can be a witness. >> i have to give you credit for another story that's breaking now. that the prosecutors told paul manafort they plan to indict him. we're that close to action here. the first victim of the scandal?
>> i would be surprised if he got indicted. i don't know about the time frame. but you see a number of people close to paul manafort who have been called before the grand jury, including his spokesman, but there are other folks who we understand that are in that inner circle with manafort, who did that work, that is being scrutinized for the ukraine region, the pro-russia party, we're talking people like rick gates, manafort's number two in the ukraine. so until they get subpoenaed, i'd be surprised if we saw an indictment. >> what about the report? >> manafort is in the cross hairs, no doubt. there these prosecutors will face pressure to indict someone and if they can't get the big
prize, someone like paul manafort or michael flynn is likely to take the fall. >> given everything we know, you first heidi and then ken. we talked about the power of the prosecution team. the top woman in terms of money laundering mab brought in. you put them against this team that can't shoot straight, trump may be saying i'm on the losing team here. >> the one thing they want to avoid is looking like they're trying to stone wall and like theyor not being cooperative. the one big takeaway you have is you have one lawyer accusing another lawyer trying to con sale things. >> now everybody knows there's a safe. >> that's going to fuel and motivate mueller to issue subpoenas. so the white house looks like it's stone walling. >> what if they subpoena the
safe and everything in it? could they do it. >> that could happen. our understanding is this preliminary stage of document production and cobb wants to get out ahead of it. but if don mcgahn gets his way and they're not producing things to satisfy mueller we could see subpoenas, not just for documents in a safe but a wide away for documents. >> thank you, i'm joined by the democratic senator of rhode island. >> what do you make these of these two developments? the president's two lawyers arguing about the information they know the prosecutor wants? >> it sounds like paul manafort got a target notice, along with the search warrant that's how he was told they were looking to indict him. but it's the first time we've
heard that, so that's an interesting new fact. and this keystone cops conversation of the lawyers in a public place obviously doesn't look too great. i would add a third piece, which is the three torpedos that sarah huckabee-sanders shot at james comey which opened up a new avenue in the case for mueller. there's a statute, 1504 in the obstruction of justice statutes, that talk abouts trying to influence grand juries. so the question of sarah huckabee-sanders is who asked you to do that, who told you to do that? and once you know who, you look to the motivation. and if the motivation was to poison the reputation of james comey with the grand jurors you have another indictment. >> what about the president bashing him again and again after his firing.
>> if you can prove the intent was to intimidate him, witness intimidation or tarnish him in the eyes of the grand jury, those are counts of an indictment. i don't know why this white house hasn't stopped this stuff. but it really looks like every time they turn around, they're sending up another invitation to mueller to run this down and see if you can add a count. >> do you know what room they have the safe in? i'm serious. you have to start zeroing in on this item of interest -- >> didn't the last scam start with a safe. >> the president's lawyer is saying don't open the safe. the guy on the outside, ty cobb says open it. where are you? >> i think there are genuine equities to protect the presidency of the united states against having to dish out too many documents.
i fully. with you that the notion that this white house cares about any of that is laughable. so there's at least a reasonable case to be made that is a pretext in which case, what's left is we don't want you to see the documents. and that's not a good place for this white house to be. that looks like cover up, obstruction, stone walling. >> great to have you on, even in this dangerous area for the presidency. i want to thank ken vogel. heidi prez, who is now white house correspondent. >> right. >> we'll see you talking to sarah. robert mueller is pouring over facebook, they're going to facebook trying to find out who's paying for the adds, the money trail again, follow the money. and did the russian operatives get help from jared kushner, the
micro analysis of the campaigning we're familiar with. who was telling the russians, how to find out the voters they needed to identify in states like michigan, wisconsin and pennsylvania. who on our side was telling them? plus politics was front and center at last night's emmy awards. we'll see sean spicer joking around. i'm with him, get out there, make a full of yourself. another day, another nickname for trump. he's calling kim jong-un rocket man. wars started by name calling. it's like trump's on the campaign trail, i guess he thinks, against north korean dictators. let me finish with trump watch. this is "hardball" where the action is. as they age and grow.
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considering holding a military parade on the fourth of july, inspired by the parade he saw in france. this was mentioned in a photo op with emmanuel macron. >> i want to say i was your guest at bastille day, it was the greatest thing i have ever seen. and to a large extent because of what i witnessed we may do something like that on july 4th in washington down pennsylvania avenue. i don't know we have to try to top it. i'm looking forward to doing that. we'll see if we can do it this year, but we'll be beginning -- kim jong-un he loves parades, too. we'll be right back.
but there are a lot of unanswered questions. >> welcome back to "hardball." that was adam schiff on the extent of russia's influence on facebook during the election. we know they bought $100,000 worth of ads on this site. we know the social media giant gave the special counsel details about the ad, the companies that bought them. efforts could lead investigators in one direction. vanity fair reports they're interested in the role of jared kushner, who took credit for drafting the trump campaign's online efforts. it cites a 2016 interview with forbes magazine in which jared kushner said i called somebody for one of the technology
companies i use, and asked them for a tutorial on facebook and targeting. no information has come out linking him to russian. i'm talking to an msnbc national security analyst. i want to ask you about this report breaking right now from the "new york times," that the agents who did the search of manafort's house told him in passing he was going to be indicted. >> it sounds like this is the weakest link in the investigation from the trump team and they use it to push manafort waun way or another. they were looking for a way in to get some of that inside investigation. and the manafort investigation seems to be the component of the whole trump team. everything we heard in the past, even back to last winter, in 2016, we found that manafort kept coming up in these stories
and he was being looked into for his financial connections to the ukraine and his dealings during the campaign. so i'm not surprised they pushed on him first. i'm curious as to what his reaction was. >> i think it lights you up a bit when they tell you you're going to be indicted. let me get to the other breaking story, which is facebook. we first start hearing about facebook and other russian operations to tilt the election last year. we wonder who are their insiders, who's on the spotter on the hill. and who's telling, it doesn't have to be trump people. i notice one thing there are people willing to work were russia, for money. these guys have money and they take it. so what w do we know about would
have been their supporters, in terms of facebook? >> we've known for months that facebook, google, twitter, were pipelines for fake news, anti-clinton propaganda, the later developments, mueller s e subpoenaing facebook, should put to rest certainly trump's notion that it was a 400-pound teenager in his bedroom somewhere. and the history of the campaigns, you talk to the investigators, people who have worked in eastern europe, yes the kremlin and their intermead yaries pay for it and give the general directions but wherever they've tried to sway elections they have proxies, translating it into the vernacular, and
targeting it in ways you think are going to be effective. as you said, there is no direct connection between kushner and the russian propaganda, election meddling operation. but there's a real confluence of interest and of technology. is it possible the russians learned how to target african-american women in michigan by watching lots and lots of msnbc, sure that's possible. but when you have the trump campaign proudly taking credit for slicing and dicing these swing voters, the big data firm that they brought on board claims to be able to develop psycho graphic profiles of voters, a lot of these people were playing in the same space. russians certainly are opportunityist and in the chaos
of the trump campaign, could the trump folks have brought them in or helped them unwittingly, sure that's possible, too. >> let me go to clint for a general analysis. we have to trust you on a lot of this stuff we koedon't know it. i'm watching "the americans," i'm two years behind now. but they say it was a pretty accurate on how the russians were able to recruit in the old cold war days. and it's going to be brit yant how trump's campaign found just enough votes and the buttons they could push to say you know forget e everything else you hear about trump, the only thing that matters in this race is send a message to the establishme establishment. maybe it was trump, did he get any help? did he get any help of his targeting of people that were so
sick of the regular party, republicans in primaries, democrats in the generals they're willing to say no let's try the new guy. >> no. micro target is not complex i could do it from my house. >> could a russian do it? >> yes. the russians were in the u.s. base going well back to 2015, they were noe focussed on social issues, anti-government, race issues, going all the way to 2016. i think the key thing to look at what the russians did that no one did, they hacked materials and released it to the wild so any campaign was citing narratives that was set by wicky leeks drops. if anyone cited bernie sanders got a raw deal that was by the dnc leaks which was russian
hacking. so all the fuel comes back to the russian hand of hacking. in terms of the micro targeting and the companies that think they can do the psycho graphic stuff. i equate it to digital snake oil. i worked with them in counter terrorism space, and they could never really deliver on those things. >> if a polt ster gets one of these elections right he can dine out on it for three years, and then the next year he blows it and he's nobody's expert. trump looks like the genius, it looks like he got some help. we'll see if that's true the next time he runs for reelection if he still has the russian help. up next, president trump may have been 3,000 miles away but he took center stage at the emmy's. it's a politically charged evening, but one that celebrated
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period. both in person and around the world. >> that really soothes my fragil fragile ego. >> welcome back. sean spicer's was just part of the politically fuelled emmy night, let's watch it. >> i have to thank winston church hill, in these crazy times, his life even as an old man reminds us what courage and leadership in government looks like. >> in 2017 we still refuse to be controlled by a sexist, lying hypocrite cal bigot. >> unlike the presidency, the emmy's go to the popular vote. >> it was also a big night for
women. with timely topics, like domestic abuse. boy did they handle that nicely. to a black woman's coming out story in master of none. let's watch a bit. >> it's been an incredible year for women in television. bring them to the front. >> we've shown a light on domestic abuse. it is -- it is a complicated insidious disease. it exists far more than we allow ourselves to know. >> margaret, thank you for what you did in 1985 and thank you for what you continue to do for all of us. >> last but certainly not least my lgbtq family i love each and every one of you. >> i'm joined by ted johnson. i thought it was something else. i thought hand maids tail is
main stream for drama. pretty little lies talks about spousal violence. and somehow for societal reasons afraid to come out and say this is a frightening, dangerous marriage i'm stuck in. >> we're seeing the fruits of having the cable networks, the broadcast networks, streaming. >> that aren't being sensored. >> no. the broadcast networks you'll see more in response. "this is us" is in large part to the competition from streaming. this must-see tv or the bing watching. >> what do you think of sean spicer? if he's a flack and wants to make fun of it, how can you not? 4e's making fun of his bs about crowd size. he's making fun of himself. >> there's all this push back.
i heard the emmy's are magettin flack for having him. the thing is, if spicer wants a tv career, there's going to be moments about what he said from the podium. >> great for stephen colbert, there's a good guy. i'm thinking of the line, i like when good happens to good people. he's a good guy. >> yes. the whole idea was the emmy's politicized. if it wasn't you would have wondered what happened. stephen colbert was the host. >> talk about the chorus line with the guys out there doing the rocketnumber. >> no. it's expected now. >> thank you ted johnson. president trump set to give his
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and i said mitch cannot run. he walks like a penguin on stage. like a penguin. >> president trump came up with a nickname for every one of his competitors now he's come up with one for north korea's leader, the unstable kim jong-un, i spoke with president moon of south korea last night asked him how rocket man is doing. long gas lines forming in north korea, too bad. there aren't long gas lines. let's bring in our panel. who's the youngest here? maybe you are, i don't know. you must remember high school. high school was nickname country. you had to put up with the bruising personal genius of the bad guys and thought of what's wrong with you physically if
they could find it or anything wrong with you and zoned in on it until you felt miserable and now they do it on twitter. >> it's a juvenile distraction. it's unhelpful to come up -- sfl what does he gain by calling information elton john's -- >> he thinks it helps with the american people that he comes up with these names that come up with a weakness of the other person. in this case it's kim's strength, the rocket arsenal is a weakness because he's unstable, firing them left and right. he's trying to exploit that somehow. >> if someone had a suicide belt on, would you make fun of them? >> i don't think this is part of his strategy. this is what he thinks his base wants from him. >> so it's all about that? >> like we've seen throughout his presidency. it's his core base of voters who
pride themselves on being the politically incorrect, the president being unconventional. >> but there's another world out there, this isn't buffalo bob and the peanut gallery. there's another world out there. >> he wants to entertain. >> he wants to entertain. do you think his people should be worried about kim jong-un. >> they should be. we should look at what nikki haley is doing, trump's tweets are a juvenile distraction. >> are they more mature? >> yes. >> i think nikki haley always looks more mature. also they're retweeting a video from one of his supporters. trump hitting a golf ball and it hitting her in the back of the head. among the people offended was senator diane feinstein, she said the president's sunday
morning tweet of a video depicting an attack on hillary clinton is awe palling and disgusting. every one of us should be on fenned by the vindictive and candidly dangerous messages the president sends that demean not only senator clinton, but women. grow up and do your job. how do you take it the president teeing up on the person he beat in the campaign. making fun of his purported assault on her after having being a goon looking over her during the debates. >> i was speaking to someone on the hill that said this is unprecedented and absurd. it had 33,000 responses on twitter so many saying it encourages violence against women -- >> is this to make up for his deal for daca? >> i don't know. >> it's to say i had to give
in -- >> i think he's upset that hillary clinton is out there making headlines with the w his memoirs. >> that's a cost, too. >> it does. >> he doesn't want her to get her limited modified success. that is really shrewd because can't he give her the book at least, he has the presidency. >> i would be wary thinking this is the grand strategy. we've seen him retweet videos that he thinks is funny. i talked to these people in the right world who think the president is one of them -- >> he is. he's one of those 400 pound people in their bed bed that he makes fun of, he's the president of the united states does he get up and say mom can i have pancakes? then he sits down, president of the united states with an entire government behind, the republicans behind him, the u.s. military and he's doing this.
>> it reflects john kelly is not running as tight of a ship has he wanted. >> he can't control this guy. >> to kelly's credit -- >> doesn't he say he gets up at 6:30 in the morning -- >> she's not my boss. >> i hear you. gets up at 6:30 in the morning first get it is "new york times," just read it is cover. >> he reads "the washington post," too. >> reads the front page, stops at the fold and tweets. >> he watches morning news on tv, too. >> why the morning show? they don't like each other. >> he has a long complicated history with morning joe. >> the round stable is sticking with us, up next these three tell me something i don't know. this is "hardball" where the action is. about my culture.
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>> undocumented and unafraid. we are immigrants, liberation movement. a directly impacted youth. we demand to be heard. >> today's protesters take issues with the deal saying by merely focussing on d.r.e.a.m.ers they're leaving out the other 11 million people who entered illegally. we'll be right back. idiculous plot twists. (gasping) son? dad! we also know you can avoid drama by getting an annual check-up. so we're partnering with cigna to remind you to go see a real doctor. go, know, and take control of your health. it could save your life. doctor poses! dad! cigna. together, all the way.
we're back with the round table. tell me something i don't know. >> democrats know they can't win back the house with republicans drawing districts. a new majority is spending $100 million or hoping to raise 100 million for 12 states to help win backseats -- >> that will have to wait until 2022. >> 2021. >> they don't have the races until 2022. >> a democratic fund-raiser told
me what they spend on john osar's seat, they could have won pennsylvania. >> monday morning quarterbacking. >> alabama pay attention down there you have the senate election runoff tuesday. president trump is heading down there later this week. the important thing -- >> moore or strange. >> trump is endorsing strange. but moore is getting -- >> moore's going to win. >> he's ahead in the pole. >> the giks nar is having trouble keeping up with adding the new words that are coming up with. >> thank you very much. when we return let me finish with trump watch. i think you'll like this one, you probably won't, but he can
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talk. he was talking about winston church hill. he didn't have to say anything else we know what he's talking about, but hasn't said yet. the one sure thing donald trump has done, and this has to be clear to all, is lower the bar for human decency. those that voted sought and approved it, they made him president. when you were young didn't your parents tell you not to make fun of someone's appearance, wasn't that a basic? didn't your parents tell you not to use bad words about people that looked different from you? you weren't supposed to call people from mexico rapists even though you didn't know what that means? trumps out there running people out of his rallies, telling the police to rough them up. it's all part of the act, doing what you were told not to do.
it's the heart of his act. where's the courage, the leadership in that? where's the winston churchhill in donald trump. that's it for "hardball." "all in" with chris hayes starts now. >> breaking news tonight on special counsel robert mueller's case against paul manafort, the president's one time campaign shareman. according to the "new york times" when federal agents executed a search warrant on his virginia home, two months ago, the special counsel followed up with a warning. prosecutors told manafort they plan to indict him, said two people close to the investigation. that's one of the tactics employed by mueller. which reported they picked the locks on his front door, took