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tv   All In With Chris Hayes  MSNBC  September 18, 2017 5:00pm-6:00pm PDT

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it's the heart of his act. where's the courage, the leadership in that? where's the winston churchhill in donald trump. that's it for "hardball." "all in" with chris hayes starts now. >> breaking news tonight on special counsel robert mueller's case against paul manafort, the president's one time campaign shareman. according to the "new york times" when federal agents executed a search warrant on his virginia home, two months ago, the special counsel followed up with a warning. prosecutors told manafort they plan to indict him, said two people close to the investigation. that's one of the tactics employed by mueller. which reported they picked the locks on his front door, took binders, even photographed the
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expensive suits in the closet. according to another new report, manafort was under government surveillance before and after the election. cnn reporting he was wiretapped under fisa warrants. according to that report, the government snooping continued into early this year, including a period when manafort was known to talk to president donald trump. sharon lafraniere is a reporter who broke the story tonight. she joins me by phone. your reporting is they told manafort they planned to indict him. how common is that? >> that's not that uncommon that a prosecutor would say we don't believe your story, you're not really cooperating with us. we're going to indict you. the difference here, i think,
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might be, as my colleagues found out is that they threatened an imminent indictment and this was in the summer and we haven't seen it. >> one of the themes of the piece is the approach of mueller and how it differs particularly in white color investigations. the report says it's more like that mafia investigation. explain what that means. >> i think we're seeing that they're trying to create a sense of fear, right, that look, we're a bunch of sobs and don't try to play the usual white collar game with us and stretch it out because we're not playing by those rules. and typically, in a white collar case, the attorney would -- the defense attorneys would say, okay, let's spell this out.
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is my client a witness? is my client a subject, who might be -- might, in the future, face charges? and there's this song and dance that might go on. the attorneys might agree to talk to the prosecutors privately. there's all kinds of way s you can write these, but it seems in a number of cases mueller's team is skipping that preliminary back and forth and saying here's your client's subpoena, bring him to the grand jury. and like one person who got one of these subpoenas said, i didn't need a subpoena. they could have given me an e vi vite and i would have showed up. it's part of what saul
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risenberg, who was the former deputy counsel of ken starr said, it's setting a tone. striking terror in the heart of washington. we're not being nice about this. and they actually don't have -- you think they have all these resources, they have 17 prosecutors, but they don't -- time is really not on their side because -- because if they carry on and they don't produce results like an indictment of manafort or -- that would take the pressure off. but if they go on for some period of time, then people don't see results, then they're going to start asking like, why are we spending all this money? they're all over the place, money laundering, obstruction of justice, what do they have? is this just a fishing
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expediti expedition? >> thank you, sharon. natasha is a senior insider who have been following the russia investigation with particular attention to paul manafort, she joins me now. first your reaction to the times report that he had been informed by mueller's people they plan to indict him? >> that's huge news. to be honest i'm more surprised by the cnn report that paul manafort was actually wiretapped because that implied that the fbi was able to get a fisa warrant, which is difficult to do. they had to prove to the department of justice and then to a federal court that they thought there was reason to believe that paul manafort was working on behalf of a foreign agent. and paul manafort is not the only person that they did this with. they also got a warrant for carter page, who if you remember
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in the dossier, it said that carter page was working as a liaison, being managed by paul manafort. so these pieces are starting to come together and it's really alarming. >> the fisa warrant, which cnn is reporting, my understanding -- this is a sort of key part of it and one of the more fascinating aspects is it may or may not pertain to information before the trump investigation opens up in the fbi, there's a manafort investigation that precedes that? is that correct? >> right. the fbi opened an investigation into paul manafort's lobbying activities in 2014. he was lobbying on behalf of a ukrainian -- the ukrainian president at the time, and the fbi thought some of his activities he was doing in washington d.c. were a little bit suspect. paul manafort's lobbying activities over seas have been
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subject to a lot of scrutiny. it's not clear who he was paid by, where his funds came from and what he did with them. he's been known to put a lot of his money in shell companies and buy real estate across the united states with those shell companies so it's masking his funds allegedly. so this is something the fbi was looking into in 2014, and according to cnn they closed the investigation in 2016 because they couldn't find any more reason to continue looking into him, and then all of this russia stuff started to happen. and then said, maybe we should take another look because we know he has these ties to russia entities in the ukraine and he was trump's campaign manager. >> just to zoom in on what you said before, fisa warrants, we know they give them out almost 100% of the time, they're not difficult in the sense of getting the court to agree to
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it, but the standards you have to meet, it's not just that there's a crime, but you are a f foreign agent is the bar to get that warrant. >> the reason why these fisa warrants are granted is because getting to the court and presenting the evidence that you have that you would allow them to grant you a fisa warrant, it's a difficult process. so once you get to the final stage, which is presenting the evidence before these nine federal judges, it's you managed to pass all the phases where you've proven you have enough evidence to find evidence that a crime was committed or this person had conspired with a foreign entity. >> in terms of manafort, he and michael flynn -- michael flynn we got some news today, is starting a fund -- a legal defense fund essentially to
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raise money for his criminal defense. is there anything in the reporting of the last 24 hours to suggest that these two people -- it seems that these two people are the biggest targets. is that your understanding from what we've learned in the last 24 hours? >> definitely. michael flynn and paul manafort have been at the center of this russia investigation. michael flynn drew scrutiny when it came to light when he was talking to the russian ambassador and saying they would lift sanctions after trump came into office. he registered e belatedly but there are questions surrounding who he was working for, where those funds came from, and why he didn't register as a foreign agent immediately with the justice department and i feel mueller is going to hone in on these vulnerabilities that manafort and flynn have, in
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order to get them to talk more about what they know about the russia interference in the election. >> thank you. >> thank you. >> kerry, let me start with you, to jump off what natasha was just saying about the significance of this fisa warrant news, if it, in fact, bears out. >> right. so first i have to say, chris, the release of fisa information, this is really highly sensitive national security information. so it looks like we're in another information where classified information has been leaked and leaks of fisa information if, in fact, this reporting is organize nating from current or former government officials it's a significant fact that that is out there now and this is some of the most lye highly sensitive type of information. so i have to the start off noting that fact and this
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probably will trigger yet another leak investigation. that being said, if this reporting is correct, it gives us another window into the investigation that the fbi and now the special counsel's office have been conducting of manafort. the standard to get fisa is higher for an american or u.s. person. the standard, as you mentioned, is probable cause that the individual is an agent of a foreign power, a foreign government for example, and when it's an american or a u.s. person, as the statute calls americans, and other aliens, the surveillance has to be necessary to protect the national security of the united states. so the court has to make a number of findings and there is an extensive process as natasha has some good sources described, that the government has to go to both at the fbi and at the justice department and
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ultimately to an independent federal judge to get the surveillance or search approved. >> matt, it's somewhat mind blowing to conceive of the fact that the president of the united states, as president-elect, possibly was part of communications that were being intercepted by the u.s. government as part of its fisa warrant as a u.s. person who was in communication with the target of that surveillance. >> it shows an incredible amount of recklessness on the presiden president-elect and maybe the president's part. i think the thing that's interesting about the fisa warrant, is there were two of them one that expired in 2014, and was pulled down in 2016. and it was pulled down because the justice department found no evidence that paul manafort committed a crime. something changed for them to go back and get another fisa warrant late in 2016 after he left the campaign. clearly they saw new evidence that led them to believe that he
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was acting as an agent of a foreign power. we don't know what that is, we heard reports they heard russian officials talking to each paul manafort and paul manafort talking back to them. so they went back and got another fisa warrant that continues to this day or expired recently. >> the purpose of the surveillance is to collect foreign intelligence information. so the fact that an ongoing surveillance wouldn't necessarily produce evidence of a crime, would not necessarily be the reason that the surveillance would have to be shut down. there would have to be continued demonstration of probable cause that the target is an agent of a foreign power and as long as that standard is met, the surveillance can continue, but it has to be approved by the court every 90 days. >> can i ask you about the takeaway from the times reporting of the posture of mueller. i think it's fascinating because
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it's contrasted against the way these normally work at high level white collar investigations. that criminal defense lawyers are very good at selling themselves as allies, essentially, to prosecutors. we're all on the same team, what can we help you with? we're going to be very cooperate fich and mueller is taking this hard and fast approach. what do you make of that? >> there's two possibilities one is in the early stages of the special council investigation or the fbi investigation before there was a special council, we don't know that, that prosecutors or investigators tried to work with manafort and he rebuffed any of those efforts. we don't know, but i think that's a possibility. so then if they passed that, now he's in a very adversarial position. the second piece i know some other observers think the
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execution of the search warrant was extraordinary, i think there's a lot of aspects in the paul manafort investigation that feel similar to a very large public corruption investigation, a very large criminal enterprise investigation. and so, i don't think that the tactics that are being used feel that unusual for big enterprise criminal white collar investigations. >> how much, matt, do you think the psychology matters in terms of how the various players throughout both the trump campaign in its previous it rations, the current administrations are making calculations about how to act. >> i think it's a big part of it. bob mueller has been sending clear messages to everyone involved. which is i'm coming as aggressively as i can and you better cooperate or you'll find yourself in a grand jury or agents in your house.
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raids are usually very public events and neighbors call reporters and you see them show up instantly. i'm sure muller's team expected that to become news quickly. it sends a signal to everyone involved look i am conducting one of the most serious investigations in the history of the justice department if you have any -- if you're paul manafort or mike flynn, if you're anyone else for example who has been talking to paul manafort and now knows your conversation has been intercepted, you need to talk to the special council and cut a deal. >> kerry, i want you to weigh in on this somewhat bizarre story that was published earlier by the new york times in which ty cobb, who is an outside lawyer is talking to john dowd, in which the two of them are arguing and wrestling over the fight he's having with white house counsel don mcgahn about
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how cooperative to be and how to navigate this legal thicket and they're having this conversation loudly in a restaurant with a reporter listening in. >> it's unbelievable for any washington lawyer to think that that type of conversation, when your client is the president of the united states and you're discussing it at a d.c. steak house. so that aspect aside, i think what the results of that conversation as they've been reported reveal, is that this is a broken legal team. and the difficulty is lawyering requires trust. it requires trust between the client and the lawyers. it requires trust amongst the lawyers and the team themselves. and if there is not trust between those different components, the legal team can't function effectively. >> that's a great point. kerry and matt, thank you both. >> thank you. next more on that story, is someone inside the white house
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wearing a wire for robert mueller tonight? we know the president's lawyers are worried about that. more on that story in just two minutes. ugh. heartburn. sorry ma'am. no burning here. try alka-seltzer heartburn relief gummies. they don't taste chalky and work fast. mmmm. incredible. can i try? she doesn't have heartburn.
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we are following two late breaking stories tonight on the russia investigation. a report that prosecutors told paul manafort they plan to indict him, according to two people close to the investigation. and a report that u.s. investigators obtained court orders to wiretap manafort before and after the election under the fisa statute. the president's lawyers are feeling the pressure and it's making them par enjoyed and sloppy. last week two of his attorneys met for lunch at a d.c. steak house and discussed the probe, a conversation that was overheard by new york times reporter ken vogel. he heard a contention behind the
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scenes feud on how much to cooperate with the counsel. the white house counsel's office is being conservative. referring to mcgahn, he has documents locked in a safe. discussing the white house legal team cobb told dowd, i've got some rezer reservations about one of them. colleagues may be wearing a wire to record conversations for mueller. joined now by two reporters who are well sourced inside this white house. >> olivia, have you heard -- i mean, as someone who reports on these folks every day, are you getting the palpable paranoia off the folks as well. >> certainly. that's been there since the
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beginning. it was there during the campaign with what was now a different group of people. i cannot overstate the level of incompetence here for members of the president's legal team to very loudly discuss these things near the "new york times" at a restaurant a few doors down from the "new york times" or any restaurant in washington loudly. that's something if you know how things work you don't do. so it's difficult to overstate how incompetent this entire operation seems to be right now and a difficult time for the president. it couldn't go worse when it comes to this story right now for this white house. >> i can't quite put my head around the incompetence here because these are people in other contexts are very good attorneys don mcgahn who's specialty is election law.
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i don't quite get if there's some vortex of incompetence when you get within an orbit of it in the white house you start acting like that. >> there might be something to that theory. the senior trump aids in the white house who i've been talking with and messaging with earlier today and e yesterday regarding the new york times story regarding what mr. dowd and mr. cobb were doing. one of them likened it to me by having the president be respected by a side of the highway mall lawyer. having said that, this white house staff, or anybody working in the white house right now, accusing this legal team of being rather jv might want to the look in the mirror as you were pointing out earlier. like people and senior officials around president trump being incompetent isn't exactly breaking news. >> there's also the added layer of the fact that now everybody -- everyone is lawyered up, including white
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house counsel, don mcgahn who has his own lawyer for this inquest, you have layers of legal representation. and there is this kind of prisoner's dilemma kind of dynamic you have to imagine that people have the interest of the president of the united states, who they work for, the executive branch in a constitutional sense but their own interest in terms of how they're going to come out in this. >> certainly. i think the latter probably matters a lot to most of the people in the white house, more than any other point. there's a type of person that works for donald trump they tend to be out for themselves, further their own careers, further their own reputations, and i think we can expect that's one of the main concerns right now for most of the people surrounding the president. but i mean, i cannot think of something less attractive to donald trump than having to deal with more of this story this week. they're trying to hard to get
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something, anything done. and instead we're being side tracked again by russia and news that perhaps indictments are going to be coming. this is not how they wanted to spend the first year, certainly, and the first couple months of this administration, but they are. and it doesn't look like it's going away anymore soon. and paul manafort, as was reported by the daily beast, paul manafort was still advising trump through the tran tigs. as we get deeper into the investigation, as it broadens its scope we're going to see that habit that donald trump has of keeping people with problematic things around him is going to be detrimental. >> the posture of the folks in the white house around this investigation, i can see it going a number of different ways. one is okay this is a witch hunt
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there's nothing there we'll be fine. it's going to blow over. the other is, the shoe is going to drop any day and someone is going to show up at my condo and pick the locks. how are people thinking. >> in terms of public, it's the former. in terms of of what's going on in their own heads and hearts is the latter. olivia brought up paul manafort earlier. he's an interesting case in terms of trump's inner circle and white house officials working there because they greatly resent mr. man sfwoafor many of them blame, fairly or unfairly, for the widening scope of the investigation into the finances of the president and his family. they kind of consider mr. manafort a patient zero in that sense. and at the same time, even though he headed the campaign for several months, there was
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never a feeling with trump's family and closest advisors, that paul manafort was one of them so they would throe him under the bus harder than they are right now if they knew what he knew. but there is the notion of what if manafort snitches? and the problem is they don't know what he would be snitching about. >> that's a great point. they're ready to deliver him up but don't know what he knows. and maybe the case that people never thought of him as the inner circle but the president himself kept talking to the guy, and lord knows what they talked about and what is on the transcripts of the intercepts apparently being surveilled by the u.s. government. >> the fact is no matter how his family or close advisors feel about any individual, donald trump is going to do what donald trump wants to do. so he will continue to speak to people who have been a problem for him. he will continue to call them late at night and ask what do you think of this or what do you
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think of this person? i think that's going to be a problem with paul manafort, it might be a problem with other people implicated in this investigation as well. >> all right. thank you, both. tonight senate republicans again trying to push replace and repeal obamacare while no one is paying attention, and this time they might be able to do it. senator brian shot says the new bill is worse than the one that fails and he join mes ahead. what do you have there? p3 it's meat, cheese and nuts. i keep my protein interesting. oh yea, me too. i have cheese and uh these herbs.
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former officer jason stockry who killed andrew smith. prosecutors alleged stockily planted a gun inside his vehicle. yesterday a group that the mayor described of as agitators sprayed chemicals at police, leading them to make arrests. officers in riot gears gathered alongside a city boulevard were chanting, whose street, our streets. this morning peaceful protesters were back on the stleets, students walking out of two high schools as protesters locked arms and marched silently to city hall. >> as long as we're still dieing in the streets, as long as the system dispor portion gnatly
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affects minorities we'll be here. >> today business owners were boarding up business out of fears. at this hour the protests are peaceful. we'll continue to monitor scene throughout the hour. that i'm 2. i had no idea. just to know this is what i'm made of, this is where my ancestors came from. and i absolutely want to know more about my native american heritage. it's opened up a whole new world for me. discover the story only your dna can tell. order your kit now at ancestrydna.com. dicaller: my husband-he'scy. having trouble breathing... first responders hear it a lot. and everyone age 65 and older needs to hear it, too. the flu, and its complications, can be deadly. especially for those with a chronic medical condition. that's why there are higher-strength flu vaccines- made for seniors. ask your doctor or pharmacist for a senior flu shot.
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go home safer, then i'll drive it every day of the week. together, we're building a better california. republicans are right now mounting one last sneak attack against obamacare, and this time they could succeed. mitch mcconnell and other republicans are attempting to rush through a bill in less than
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two weeks. even the congressional budget office says it won't have enough time to figure out what would happen if the graham-cassidy bill were put into law for the expected vote next week. republicans need to hit that september 30th deadline in order to pass on a straight majority vote without a filibuster and no time for discussion or hearings. nevertheless, the bill is showing signs of momentum among republicans. senator john mccain who provided the dramatic thumbs down for the last act. said the support of his state's governor would be key to his support of this legislation. well, the arizona governor may have given him what he needs to vote for the bill tweeting saying he is okay with it. senator brian schatz of hawaii
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tweeting today saying what's crazy is this bill is much more harmful than the skinny repeal. he joins me now. explain what you mean when you say this was worse than the skinny repeal which is what they were trying to pass when john mccain gave the thumbs down? >> there were two or four bills over the last few months that all did awful things. but in graham cassidy they do all the awful things. it lifts the prohibition on charging people more as they get older. it lift it is prohibition on charging more than 15% as an administrative expense as opposed to for health care. and it guts medicaid as we know
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it and eliminates medicaid expansion and defunds planned parenthood. most of the bills we looked at did about two thirds of that in various it rations. this is a bill that decided to do all of that in one radical piece of legislation. and what is scary is they are pretty close. depends who you ask, but they're certainly very close to enacting this into law, we are going to need people who were with us in this fight over the last six to eight months to fire up those phone lines, get online, knock on doors at district offices and make sure that we kill this thing again. but i have to say, i was trying not to sound the alarm until it was absolutely necessary. and now we are really in an extreme situation. we have to try to kill this bill in the next ten days. >> there's something sort of bonkers going on, which has been the case every time they try to do this. it's the case in the house and senate where there's no regular
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order, no committee hearings, none of that. it's just like keep it closely held and then break in like it's a heist of a bank and see if you can get in and get out. they don't have enough time -- aim correct on this? they've given it to the cbo to score, for would premiums go up, people to lose coverage, and there's not enough time for the cbo to give the full score, is that correct? >> that's right the cbo got back to us and said the only thing they can do is assess the fiscal impact of the legislation. so they will know if there's any, quote, savings. remember savings comes out of the hide of the american people so let's be careful using the term savings. but they said they need a couple weeks to analyze the impact this bill will have on coverage in everyone's home state. so we have people are going to vote yes or no on a piece of
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legislation to restructure one fifth to one sixth of the american economy to probably throe 20 to 30 million off of their health care. but we're not going to know the impacts until after we vote. what is so shocking to me is so many people talk about the regular order. and that means the senate acts like a senate. it has hearings, we talk to experts, we have a proper debate. now we're not going to listen to the impact of the bill. but here's what we know, because it has the elements of the previous bills that had awful cbo bills 23 off coverage 26 million, 22 million, this will be as bad if not worse of that. the final point, i saw you make it on twitter. i think we will have anywhere by rule 90 seconds to two 2 minutes of debate on this legislation. that is an abomination. that is legislative malpractice.
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>> senate procedure can be arcane and it is in this case because you're dealing with reconciliation. by rule, i want people to understand this, there are essentially 90 seconds. seconds. everyone clock that in your head. there's 90 seconds of debate left for this entire legislation before the senate. is that accurate? >> that's accurate. there's no reason to do it this way. i think that the really encouraging thing that happened over the last month, which was as a result of john mccain's moment on the floor is that the chairman of the labor and pekss economy and the top democrat on that committee has been working together. that's what people want to see all along. they are blowing this thing up so they can shove it down the american people's throat. it's because they have no political wins this year. so they're going to inflict pain
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to notch a win for drop. >> senator, thanks for joining me. >> thank you. >> while candidate trump labeled the u.n. as weak, how did he handle it today. plus tonight's thing one, thing two starts next. steve was born to move. over the course of 9 days he walks 26.2 miles, that's a marathon. because he chooses to walk whenever he can. and he does it with support from dr. scholl's. only dr. scholl's has massaging gel insoles
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thing one tonight, former white house press secretary sean spicer made a surprise appearance at the emmy awards where he joked about presenting to the largest emmy audience ever. today spicer told the new york times he regrets those remarks over the crowds, although the crowd size was not unprecedented, the $107 million raised for the ceremony, double obama's record in 2009.
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the inaugural committee had committed to give whatever was left over at the end of it to charity. according to investigation by the associated press, the group has helped to pay to redecorate the white house and the vice president's residence in washington, but did not donate the money. where did the rest of the money go? that's thing two in 60 seconds. the mercedes-benz gle can help protect you from the unpredictable. and the distracted.
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its cameras, radar and sensors can help prevent just about any surprise. well, almost. lease the gle350 for $609 a month at your local mercedes-benz dealer. mercedes-benz. the best or nothing. so president donald trump, raised a record $107 million for the festivities surrounding his swearing in ceremony back in january and they promised the money left over would go to charity. but the charitable donations would exceed any previous inauguration. yet eight months later nothing has gone to charity, according to the associated press meanwhile leaders of previous inaugurations started giving it away right away. so where the d the money go?
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donald trump's preconcert came with a $23 million price tag. compare that to obama's for $5 million. and he was able to get beyonce, gart brooks, u 2. president trump was able to headline the show by toby keith and three doors down and a cover by these guys, the piano guys. thankfully, the breakthrough in prevagen helps your brain and actually improves memory. the secret is an ingredient originally discovered... in jellyfish. in clinical trials, prevagen has been shown to improve short-term memory. prevagen. the name to remember.
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yet another extremely dangerous hurricane, maria, is now on bath to make a direct hit on areas battered by hurricane irma. and this new storm just became a category 5 according to the national hurricane center. it upgraded only hours after it became a category 4 is expected to remain a hurricane for the next five days on a trajectory for puerto rico and the virgin
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islands. if it makes landfall in puerto rico it would be the first category 4 or 5 hurricane to do so in more than 85 years. high winds and excessive storm surge could be an issue when it makes landfall. it was a little more than a week ago that puerto rico was spared the worst, but still managed to many caribbean islands were absolutely devastated by hurricane irma and hardly in a position at this point to sustain another direct hit. we'll watch the storm in the days to come. next, president trump talks to north korea following another missile launch. we'll discuss the threats with whitney sherman and the highest ranked members after this break. i no longer live with
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and after harvoni treatment. tell your doctor if you've ever had hepatitis b, a liver transplant, other liver or kidney problems, hiv or any other medical conditions and about all the medicines you take including herbal supplements. taking amiodarone with harvoni can cause a serious slowing of your heart rate. common side effects of harvoni include tiredness, headache and weakness. ready to let go of hep c? ask your hep c specialist about harvoni. president trump today made his first appearance in new york where he criticized the u.n. for excessive bureaucracy and mismanagement. albeit in farless harsh tones than he spoke about the group on the campaign trail. >> which brings me to my next point, the utter weakness and incompetence of the united nations. the united nations is is not a friend of democracy. it's not a friend of freedom. it's not a friend even to the
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united states of america whereas you know, it has it's home. >> over the weekend, the president taunted the leader of nuclear armed north korea kim jong-un tweeting i spoke with president moon of south korea last night and asked how rocket man is doing. long gas lines forming in north korea. too bad. that was followed by nikki haley suggesting the u.s. ran out of diplomatic options dealing with the rogue nation. >> we have pretty much exhausted all the things we could do with the security counsel at this point. i said yesterday i'm perfectly happy taking this to general mattias because he had plenty of military options. >> tomorrow the president will make the first remarks with north korean diplomats sitting front and center for the speech. with me now, someone who knows a lot about both diplomacy and north korea. wendy sherman serving for political fairs, the state department and crucially special advisor to president clinton and policy coordinator on north korea. i want to start on north korea. >> sure.
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>> let's -- well, let's start with the tweet which was strange for a variety of reasons but one of the most concerning things to me is it seemed to show the president's mental model of the north korean society was completely wrong. the idea that there would be long gas lines just seemed bizarre. what did you make of that? >> well, you know, i think it's very typical of the kinds of things we hear from the president unfortunately, which is really to sort of be dismissive of the seriousness of who what is going on in the world. i don't think there are long gas lines forming in north korea because quite frankly there aren't thousands and millions of cars traveling the streets of north korea. >> right. yeah. here is the dynamic that i'd like you to sort of ill limb nig -- illuminate. the chose esclosest the u.s. ca were there with madeleine al bright. >> indeed.
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>> president clinton before the election in 2000. right now you have this sort of threat and counter threat rashing up between the two nations. what is your read on where this is headed and what we should be doing to move it maybe in another direction? >> well, i certainly think there is a strategy here at the united nations general assembly to say to everybody we might move to military action so they should do more. this is a little difficult because neither president putin or president of china but their delegations are. i think some of the orchestration in the language is to say we're tough, we're serious. the senate just increased the defense department tremendously. secretary mattias is quoted as saying there are options that wouldn't devastate seoul. this is to ratchet up pressure. i'm all for ratcheting up pressure but in a very disciplined whole of government way. it's not clear to me that we have that whole of government strategy, which uses the threat
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of force and service of diplomacy and quite frankly, as you have discussed on this program before, chris, we don't have a lot of diplomacy going on because we don't have ambassadors in positions and we don't have a team at the state department and secretary tillerson is sometimes in the picture and sometimes out of the picture. and that is very concerning when you have to do something that is this complex and this difficult. >> so here is the question i feel like i don't understand as someone watching all this play out, which is can north korea successfully be co-horsed through pressure into abandoning the nuclear weapons program? it seems that's the fundamental question, right? at one level to them they view it as essentially a matter of the regime's survival they hold on to them and pressure won't help or maybe they will make some calculations at a certain point, the pressure is great enough and hurts them enough they can move on to a different track. which of those do you think it is? >> i think everybody needs to understand sanctions never stop
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a country from their bad behavior. what sanctions are meant to do is to force a choice about coming to the negotiating table in seriousness. when we began negotiations with iran and europeans did in 2006. they hadcentrifuge. by the time administration got into deep negotiations, they had 19,000 sent t 19,000. so these sanctions, which should be ratcheted up need a team to enforce them all over the world. it will take a little time. they will not stop iran's program -- sorry, they are not stop -- they didn't stop iran's program. they won't stop north korea's program. the idea is to put pressure on them in the negotiating table but this is a much, much tougher problem than even iran was. >> excellent point. ambassador wendy sherman who has been working on these issues for quite sometime.
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thanks for being with me. >> thank you, chris. >> that is "all in" for this evening. "the rachel maddow show" starts right now. thanks to you at home for joining us this hour. i am beginning to recent the word bombshell. [ laughter ] >> but it is the agreed upon med forfor which we don't have easy substitutions on nights like this. tonight, in fact, two new bombshells have just dropped. one from cnn and one from "the new york times." the new york times reports tonight just within the last couple hours that the president's campaign chairman, paul manafort has been informed by federal prosecutors they intend to indict him. again, the president's campaign manager being told by prosecutors that he will be indicted. we'll have more on that in a second. including a live interview with one of the live new york times reporters that broke that. that broke within minutes of this report from cnn.com from led

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