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tv   MSNBC Live With Velshi and Ruhle  MSNBC  December 12, 2017 8:00am-9:00am PST

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via the ap. we'll love to hear your thoughts on facebook, twitter, snapchat, instagram too. headed over to the white house this afternoon where i will see you. for now more news with my colleague chris jansing. and i might see you later in the show too. >> few things to talk about from the white house. >> for sure. >> thank you so much, my friend. good morning, everyone. i am chris jansing. it is tuesday, december 12th. let's get started. >> i'm going to tell you. if you don't believe in my character, don't vote for me. >> fake news would tell you that we don't care for jews. one of our attorneys is a jew. >> it really does. that was a prepared remark. controversial statements roy moore has made over the years. so here are some of them. his contention that muslims should not sit in congress. >> in response to a question from one of the only
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african-americans in the audience asking when america was last great. and here's what moore said. quote, i think it was great at the time when families were united. even though we had slavery, they cared for one another. >> his quote that homosexual conduct should be illegal. when he said that 9/11 was god punishing perverseness. >> well, we promote a lot of bad things. you know? >> like? >> same-sex marriage. >> that's the very argument that vladimir putin makes? >> well, maybe puth season right. maybe he's more akin to me than i know. >> i am begging and urging everybody to get out, call all your friends. we got to at some point we got to stop looking like idiots to the nation. >> it's only natural that the african-american community rally
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around someone who was there for them and prosecuted a heinous crime that occurred decades ago. alabama's not going to let that shame happen again. >> there was an ap report that the president was furious with nikki haley. >> i think any woman who has felt violated or mistreated in any way, they have every right to speak up. >> overnight, administration officials pushing back on that one source telling nbc news the president told haley she did a good job. >> the president has addressed these accusations directly and denied all of these allegations. and this took place long before he was elected to be president. >> the next thing you know i feel a grab on my right side. to my surprise, it's donald. i demand that he's subjected to an investigation by the ethics committee. >> this is the president of the united states' tweet. lightweight senator kirsten gillibrand, a total flunky for chuck schumer and someone who would come to my office begging for campaign contributions not
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so long ago and would do anything for them -- beyond the fact that that is reprehensible that the president of the united states would say something to derogatory and disgusting about a woman. we're not surprised, mr. president. you do it all the time. you treat women terribly. and you treat the women around you even worse. and you treat women like punching bags because it's fun for you because you are intimidated by women. that's your problem. >> after all that, right now in alabama voting is under way in the special election where the stakes and the drama couldn't be higher. any minute now, republican roy moore is expected to ride up to the polling place on his horse named sassy defiant to the end denying claims of women who have accused him of sexual misconduct when they were teenagers and he was a district attorney in his 30s. last night with a fiery steve bannon beside him, moore claiming he's the one who's a victim. of fake news.
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>> our headlines are where's roy moore? well, that's one reason i don't talk to the media. because you won't print the truth. i want to make america great again with president trump. but i want america good and she can't be good until we go back to god. >> and democrat doug jones better funded, better organized, and with a track record prosecuting the kkk but running a deeply conservative state. and we're going to talk about that, but let's go to kirsten gillibrand responding to the president. take a listen. >> -- to stand up against policies they do not agree with. >> do you see this as sexual harassment via tweet? >> i see it as a sexist smear. i mean, that's what it is. and it's part of the president's effort at name calling and it's not going to silence me. it's intended to silence me. it's not going to silence the
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women who stood up against him directly. and it's not going to silence the millions of women out there that have been speaking out every day since his inauguration about things they disagree with. >> senator, republican leaders have been reluctant to even acknowledge the allegations against president trump. why do you think they'd be willing to open an investigation? >> it's the right thing to do. and these allegations should be investigated. they should be investigated thoroughly. that is the right thing to do. and i am urging them to do that. and as should their constituents. >> let me give you some background on this. so kirsten gillibrand, one of the democratic women who has come out and said there should be an investigation into these accusations by so many women against the president of the united states about sexual misconduct. so then he tweeted on that. here's what he said. lightweight senator kirsten
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gillibrand, a total flunky for chuck schumer and someone who would come to my office begging for contributions not so long and put in parentheses that she would do anything for them. is now in the ring fighting against trump. very disloyal. then you just heard her coming out and saying that was a sexist smear. let's go to hallie jackson who has reappeared with the white house behind her. i suppose we shouldn't be surprised about the president nor should we be surprised by kirsten gillibrand who has not been afraid, frankly, to come out against this president. >> but here's the thing, chris. she is not the only senator who has called on donald trump to resign. now, obviously that is not going to happen. this is a political play, essenti essentially, by some of these democrats. look who else has called on him to step down. senator gillibrand.
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also senator booker, sanders. the only one he's going after a senator gillibrand. and he is by all accounts as you see in the tweet as you have laid out making some sort of insinuation with that parenthetical aside in the tweet. i will tell you i've asked the white house repeatedly this afternoon for specificity, clarity on what that means. what does that mean the president saying she would do anything for, quote unquote, campaign contributions. no response yet. i would remind you there is a briefing this afternoon. this would certainly be one of the questions sarah huckabee sanders gets. >> and often she says the tweets speak for themselves. >> so does this one? >> that's the question. >> right. i think that is the line of questioning there. i also think that based on our reporting and based on what i've heard from contacts in and around the white house, the president is feeling good about one thing, taxes. highly concerned about something else. the russia investigation. and now, chris, what you're seeing is this new resurfacing
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of these women coming forward making sort of bringing up again their sexual harassment claims against the president. it has very clearly gotten under donald trump's skin. it is the first thing he is tweeting about this morning. he was tying tweets to the russia investigation as well. so appearing to combine two very separate issues that are not actually related at this moment. so i think that this is a real moment. you know, you say don't be surprised that the president would make this kind of implication on twitter. i think there's a lot of folks who are concerned about it and what it means. obviously kirsten gillibrand is one of them. but despite the fact you have more than 50 democratic women now in congress calling for some kind of an investigation into donald trump. that is just a nonstarter. and so there is the continuation of the discussion about these claims against the president, particularly in the context of this me too moment you're seeing.
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so it is an intersection now of a number of different and critical headlines here in washington and frankly reverberating throughout the country. >> all right. stay with us if you can, i know you have to get back to the white house. but i want to bring in ashley parker, msnbc contributor and white house reporter for "washington post" and get your take on what you make of this back and forth? >> sure. i mean, it's a couple things. one thing that is very striking with this president is that he will basically go up to the line in what he's willing to say. and then not quite cross it. so in his tweet about senator gillibrand, there were a lot of insinuations. it seems very clearly sexually suggestive. but -- and he basically says she would do anything for money with a wink and a nod begging him for campaign contributions. yet at the same time he would say and we may see hsarah
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huckabee sanders say he never actually said that. it's interesting and also not atypical that he seems upset she called on him to step down amid the allegations of sexual harassment. but she's one of five democratic senators to do that. and he is only calling out her. she is right now the only woman of the group. >> and i don't want to put you on the spot, but i'm going to anyway because we're friends, hallie jackson. there were campaign contributions, correct? >> yes. >> made by and of course you already know this, made by the president to kirsten gillibrand. >> yes. looking up because i don't have the numbers handy but i think in the realm of -- >> i don't know if you can grab it for us. >> in the realm of a couple thousand dollars of contributions made to kirsten gillibrand made from donald trump. if we could grab that full screen. i'm looking for those numbers specifically here given we heard her sort of talking about this.
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so yes, there were campaign contributions. but here's to follow up on cache -- ashley's point here. gillibrand sees this as a sexist smear. that is what she's saying in this news conference here. so now it is incumbent on the white house to explain what the president meant by that or not. but if they don't explain it, it lets hang out there this implication this was sexually suggested. having sat on a lot of briefings and had conversations with white house officials, i imagine this will turn into an attack on the news media essentially for perhaps reading into this tweet by saying -- because ashley's right. the word sex, those words were not in the president's tweet. >> is the white house? is the president setting us up? >> you know, i don't know,
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chris. i don't know the answer to this question. what's obvious is this is something that's bugging him. >> i don't think there's any doubt about that. i want to bring john hard wood in. he's in birmingham and we are going to get to the roy moore race and doug jones and all of that because there is this very huge sexual misconduct situation. let me get your take on this in the context of all these sexual harassment allegations. now you have a president of the united states who whether it's with a wink and a nod or whatever he means and we'll wait to hear from either him or sarah huckabee sanders about what he meant, but parenthetically at least there is a double entendre on what he meant about gillibrand. >> there's no question about that, chris. but i want to follow on both what ashley and hallie were saying. they mentioned the juxtaposition
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in the roy moore case where he stands accused of making advances to other teenagers at that time. this call by kirsten gillibrand for the president to resign flows directly from what happened last week with al franken. remember all the women -- democratic senators and many male democratic senators ultimately turned as a series of accusers came out, called on franken to resign. he did resign. that cleared the decks for the democrats to say there are outstanding allegations against donald trump and he should resign that both elevates the accusers and changes the conversation toward one aimed at shortening president trump's time in office. now, nobody expects as hallie was saying for the president trump to respond to this by resigning. but that turn in the conversation i think is significant. and it helps explain what
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happened last week in this context. >> all right. i want to go back, if i can. garrett haake was in that press conference with kirsten gillibrand. we missed the top of it. so i want to play her full response of what the president tweeted this morning. >> were you offended by the apparent insinuations in the president's tweets this morning? >> it was a sexist smear attempting to silence my voice. and i will not be silenced on this issue. neither will the women who stood up to the president yesterday and neither will the millions of which who have been marching to stand up against policies they don't agree with. >> do you see this as sexual harassment by tweet? >> i see it as a sexist smear. i mean, that's what it is. and it's part of the president's effort at name calling and it's not going to silence me. it's intended to silence me. it's not going to silence the women who have stood up against him directly. and it's not going to silence the millions of women out there
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who have been speaking out every day since his inauguration about things they disagree with. >> senator, republican leaders have been reluctant to even acknowledge the accusations against president trump. why do you think they'd be willing to open an investigation? >> it's the right thing to do and these allegations should be investigated. they should be investigated thoroughly. that is the right thing to do and i am urging them to do that. so should their constituents. >> so on "megyn kelly today" yesterday, she had four accusers on. they talked about maybe trying this time maybe someone would listen to them. they felt they were dismissed previously. many of them making accusations during the campaign. now a fourth accuser who was on
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megyn kelly today, i want to play her sound. >> regis philbin, myself, donald, and melania. ray charles is standing in front of us with his security guard. the next thing you know i feel a grab on my right side. so i quickly turn to look at what this is. i initially think this is probably ken's camera bag. but to my surprise it's donald and he's standing -- >> can we continue to play that? because we cut it off in the middle. i want to make sure we fairly represent this. >> he's looking stone cold, just stoic at ray charles. and i stand there, i'm stunned. i'm speechless. i don't even know what to do or say in that moment. >> just to clarify, so he grabbed your rear end? >> right. on the right side.
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can't believe a guy like that could make it into the office, the highest office and be revered as this leader. and i can't look up to a man like that. i was disgraced. >> so these are the kinds of accusations, hallie, that you were referring to. clearly they've gotten under the president's skin. but what are you hearing from other folks in the white house and the level of concern about the reintroduction of something that they thought was largely already litigated? >> and we should note here the white house is again recently over the last 24 hours or so pushing back against these claims denying them saying that the president essentially did nothing wrong. here is the line that i think -- that i have heard privately from white house officials and that you heard publicly as well from huckabee sanders. which is the american people knew this when they voted for donald trump and he is now president. that to them i think to a lot of folks in the white house
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encapsulates the argument here. these are not necessarily -- and they are not. they are not new allegations. we knew of these allegations from these women prior to the election. they came out during the 2016 campaign. so that is the argument the white house is making. that said, i do think there is a question potentially about what you might call the distraction factor. remember, this is a president who is delivering a speech on his -- on a massive republican tax plan that is going to be likely passed in the next eight to ten days here. this is a president who wants to be talking about -- or whose staffers want him to be talking about policy, pushing taxes, selling this message, pushing what could be a huge win for him. instead, the president is tweeting about these accusations and tweeting about the allegations against them. and tweeting, of course, about senator gillibrand. >> okay. we just got this tweet from elizabeth warren. are you really trying to bully, intimidate, and slut-shame senator gillibrand? do you know who you're picking a
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fight with? good luck with that, donald trump. nevertheless, #she persisted. one of the problems it would seem for the president of the united states besides the number of women are his own comments. and i just want to remind folks some of the things he has said previously about the topic in question. let's play that. >> i'm automatically attracted to beautiful women. i'm like a magnet. i just kiss. and when you're a star, they let you do it. they let you do whatever you want. i'll tell you the funniest is i'll go backstage before a show and everyone's getting dressed and everything. no men are anywhere. and i'm allowed to go in because i'm the owner and therefore i'm inspecting it. >> right. >> is everyone okay? they're standing there with no clothes. is everybody okay? you see these incredible looking people. so i sort of get away with
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things like that. >> listening to that and then you see the president tweeting this morning as hallie pointed out, you have kirsten gillibrand calling it a sexist smear. senator warren calling it intimidation and slut-shaming. the president isn't taking on even though he's clearly targeting gillibrand. he is taking on in some ways what is a movement now. what is for a lot of people in america men and women of both political persuasions or in the middle a sea change. we're not going to take it anymore. you wrote about this. >> i think that's right. today we quoted someone at the white house say iing voters kne
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what he said on the "access hollywood" tape. they knew exactly what he said to howard stern and they still voted for him. so there's some sense he's just impervious to this sort of thing. especially if roy moore wins tonight, they'll feel further emboldened. that said, there's people in the white house and in the president's close circle of confidants and unofficial outside advisers who are worried about this. they recognize the environment has changed, the nation is ro l roiled by this discussion. including politics. have now been brought down and they feel like the president while his instinct is to counterpunch, he may face political consequences. republicans in the midterms may certainly face political consequences. in this new movement and era and without the cast of the campaign to distract these old allegations could be more problematic than they were the first time around. >> then you have nikki haley who
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gets asked about this. here's what he said. >> how do you think people should assess the accusers of the president? >> you know, the same thing. women who accuse anyone should be heard. they should be heard and dealt with. and i think we heard from them prior to the election and i think any woman who has felt violated or mistreated in any way, they have every right to speak up. >> john harwood, the white house speaking back about what the ap reported saying the president was none too happy about what nikkei hckkki haley said. what are you hearing? >> i find it a little hard to believe that he was pleased with that comment because you had nikki haley in effect separating herself from the official line of the white house that these women are dishonest. and so we've learned many
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characterizations of what the president's doing. have simply not been accurate. the one other thing i wanted to say about that tweet this morning, you know, gillibrand -- let's say it plainly. the implication is clear in that tweet and it's disgusting. and i think the president knows what he's doing. he knows the -- what he's communicating to people who are his supporters and i think we need to call it like it is. >> yeah. and look, maybe -- i'm not going to put words into the president's mouth. whatever he did, he did obviously very consciously as he always does. makes decisions about what he's going to put on twitter. then these controversies are created as they are today and sarah sanders has to go out and respond to them. yesterday was -- in the many, many years over many
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administrations i have ever watched and i'm sure all of you would agree with this, that was one of the most contentious press briefings i've ever seen. let's put it into context. hallie maybe is going to disagree with me. these press briefings are short by standards certainly of the obama administration where it used to be common for them to be an hour, hour and a half. 20 minutes or less seems to be more the standard. i want to play what sarah sanders said yesterday. >> as the president said, he found the allegations troubling and if they were true then he should step aside and ultimately the people of alabama will make a decision in that race. >> what about his own accusers? he has accusers as well. >> he president has first hand knowledge on what he did and didn't do. he can speak directly to those and he has. i don't have anything further to add. >> what do you have to add? >> i was actually going to agree with you, chris. that was the briefing that happened yesterday was sean spicer level rowdiness. right? that's what we saw in the
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beginning of the administration when it was feisty, fiery. sarah huckabee sanders has remained rather sort of calm and composed. but i thought what you saw yesterday was clearly much more contentious than we typically see in that room. part of it was on the subject of what the white house likes to call fake news making claims about news organizations. but part was the segment you just played. the accusations against the president. i thought an interesting moment came when a colleague at abc news asked if sanders grapples personally with this. personally against the allegations with the allegations against the president. and sanders simply said, hey, i am here to speak for the president and the president has denied these claims. and that was about as far as she went. >> yeah. she was also asked, was she not, whether or not she had been the victim of any kind of inappropriate behavior. not necessarily the president. she didn't really answer that question either.
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hallie jackson, ashley parker, john harwood, thank you so much. and again, a pretty contentious and at least in terms of where the social zeitgeist is, surely more to come. but we are going to go back to alabama. because right now voters are heading to the polls in today's historic special senate race. republican roy moore taking on democrat doug jones. this is a neck and neck race. it could change a lot for both of these parties going forward.
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welcome back. now back to today's special senate election in alabama where voting is under way right now, any minute roy moore could ride up to the polling place on his horse names sassy. democrat doug jones better funded, better organized, and with a track record of prosecuting the kkk is, though, running in a deeply conservative state where there's no democratic party infrastructure. both men have attracted an extraordinary amount of national help. president trump today tweeting a closing argument saying, alabama voters will do the right thing. quote, doug jones is pro-abortion, weak on crime, military, and illegal immigration. bad for gun owners and veterans and against the wall. jones is a pelosi/schumer
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puppet. arri moore will always vote with us. vote roy moore. jones got robocalls from barack obama and joe biden. plus this from charles barkley who's an alabama native. >> i am begging and urging everybody to get out, call all your friends. we got to -- some some point, we got to stop looking like idiots to the nation. >> now, on paper, of course, it's a race that should be an easy win for republicans. voters haven't elected a democrat to the senate there since 1992. i want to break this down with our team on the ground in alabama. vaughn hilliard, you have been there for a month now. take us through each campaign.
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. >> i think you laid it out well there in your intersection. roy moore the republican could win this race despite being out-spent on airways and having not appears on the campaign trail before the election. before that rally last night with steve bannon out in the rural part of the state, he had not been out on the trail since last tuesday. i talked to an official for his campaign last night and asked the thought process behind disappearing for a week. he said they're confident where they stand in this race. they believe they have republican voters coming out for him. he compared it to a football game saying they are running out the clock and felt comfortable. they said it was doug jones throwing passes down the field. moore is banking on republican voters particularly in those rural areas down where he was out in the wire grass part of the country where they call it. also looking to places like huntsville, madison county. these are the more affluent
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white communities. but they are looking for the strong republican turnout to stay in their corner and not cross over to doug jones who is not only needing support from democrats, black voters through the black belt through places like jefferson county and the outskirts of birmingham but he also needs those voters, chris. they are just as confident in this race. and they believe that tonight just about nine hours from now that they're going to come out with a victory themselves. >> i'm so fascinated by the turnout. everyone says turnout is important. they say that every single race. but you almost never have a december special election. right? that sort of argues against it. special elections in general don't do well. as they struggle to get voters, the secretary of state i know was predicting what he called a modest turnout. maybe 25%. is it clear at this point whether or not all this attention and this unlikely nail biter has left voters energized
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or exhausted and they're just staying home? >> i think there's an exhaustion to it. but there's also an interest that i haven't felt outside of iowa leading up to the primaries in those states. we're just outside of a polling place here in montgomery. the poll workers inside, they come out and work the primaries, general elections. there's a giddiness. that these are numbers they see just at this polling place where they are comparing it to presidential type numbers. the one data point we can work off of at this point, chris, are the early ballot requests coming in. these were being reported on friday and monday. in some places nine fold, the number of requests for early ballo ballots. it's where is that turnout going to be? the republican counties or the democrat counties. >> vaughn hilliard, thank you.
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it's not going to a runoff, right? i'm being mean to him. i'm putting something in his head. also on the ground in birmingham, alabama, i'd like to bring in nbc political reporter alex siwald. the republican who is s who hav out and said we can do this. on the other hand steve bannon, let me play that. >> to mitch mcconnell and senator shelby and -- [ booing ] all of that up there that doesn't have trump's back, you know they don't have his back. at all. what they want him for is the corporate tax cut. that's all they want him for. as soon as they get that tax cut, you watch what happens. there's a special place in hell
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for republicans who should know better. >> so alex, you have that. you have charles barkley. and a number of people who have been out there as surrogates. is any of that -- are you seeing anything that suggests it could make a difference? even in a race we think is this type? >> both campaigns have kind of kept their distance from the national party until now. then there's been this flood of surrogates coming in the last couple of days to get people excited, get the word out. i don't know if there's anyone in alabama that is not aware there's a senate race today. there's so much uncertainty, we're flying blind here. the polls have been all over the place. another with moore up nine. there's never been an election two weeks before christmas like this. he has a bigger ground game, more ads. and pollsters haven't bothered polling the state in the past.
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there's just a perfect storm of weirdness that makes it hard to know what's going to happen today. >> then you have a candidate who's been m.i.a., was barely seen on the campaign trail over the course of the last week. he hasn't given an interview since november 9th. when he gives one yesterday which is if you're keeping track december 11th. more than a month later gives it to a 12-year-old in a video that's sponsored by a pac. i guess the question becomes when you're looking at somebody who is facing these unrelenting allegations of sexual misconduct, could it be to his advantage to lay low? >> it felt like moore has been trying to run out the clock. he knows there is going to be a base that has championed him. and so his strategy has been,
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look, i'm going to lock down my base. i'm not going to offer any distractions. and another thing is he's let president trump be his campaigner. you know, moore was off the trail for much of the last few days. but trump was active for him at least across the border in florida. he was doing robocalls for roy moore. he's turned to the president, turned to steve bannon saying you can make this closing argument for me. probably more effective than i can. >> i'm interested to see and i guess we'll get some of this afterwards, but how many of these people who are going to the polls and made their decision especially conflicted issues. whether they were voting on the one issue which are these allegations, these sexual misconduct allegations. a lot of the moore voters on the ground say they're voting for him. because of his morals. i want to play a little bit of that. >> kwhie a >>. >> why are you supporting moore? >> i like his christian values.
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i like he runs on trump's values with abortion, gun control. >> he's right on the issues. he's right on abortion. >> he's a good christian man and all this bull crap that's going on is nothing but bull crap. >> christian values was a phrase that gabe gutierrez heard over and over again. but i am wondering if that's what's at play here. the evangelical vote. there's a lot of people that even if they are inclined to have votes because of roy moore who still say it's more important to have a republican senator in there who will vote on the next supreme court justice because of abortion and all these issues that are so important to them. have talked to a lot of voters who are deeply conflicted about this. and you talk to them and they might change their position a couple of times throughout the interview. i also had a couple of instances where i was talking to one group
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of voters in mobile. all long-time republicans. i went across the room and two of them came over separately and told me kind of privately, don't tell me friends but i'm going to vote for doug jones. so a couple people are going to be walking into the voting booth today who might be making up their mind on the spot. >> what's your take on how donald trump plays into all this? certainly when you listen to bannon last night. you heard one of those voters saying trump values. what's at stake here for the president both in terms of politics and just sort of how he feels about himself and his ability to influence? but obviously on the larger landscape, the makeup of the senate. >> there's a great deal at stake for the president. he has come in in the final few days here and made a really, really aggressive push for roy moore at a time when senate republican leaders and a lot of other republicans in washington have said we want nothing to do with this guy. we don't support him.
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you know, we don't want to associate ourselves with him. there's a risk here. if moore loses this campaign tonight, i think the president's going to look at this race and i think supporters and detractors of the president are going to look at this race and say what impact did he have on it. does he come in earlier. now if moore wins, i think we can expect that the president will take credit for his late campaign here saying i helped push him over the finish line. so there's a lot at stake. >> i don't know if you have what we call return and look at the screen now. but can we go to that live shot? someone has a very unsteady camera and i don't mean to make anybody sick. but what you saw was -- come on. what you saw was roy moore on his horse sassy galloping up to what i think was probably a group of supporters who were the
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required distance from the polling place. there it is. a steady shot. he's not just, you know, sauntering. he was kind of galloping. now he's sauntering. i'm assuming his wife maybe is on the other horse. but there's sassy. my thanks to shawn sullivan and alex sizwald. so much more to talk about coming up. experts breaking down the gop tax plan as congress races to pass a bill by christmas. we're digging into the latest reports to see which claims stand up to the hard math. you're watching "velshi & ruhle" on a wild day. hey! yeah!? i switched to geico and got more! more savings on car insurance!? they helped with homeowners, too! ok! plus motorcycle, boat and rv insurance! geico's got you covered! like a blanket! houston? you seeing this? geico. expect great savings and a whole lot more.
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45 past the hour and we're back with new controversy this morning involving the $1.5 trillion republican tax cut plan as they race to come up with a final version president trump can sign by christmas. we've got this new single page analysis. you see it there released by the treasury department yesterday. being blasted by experts on both sides of the political aisle. it claims that the senate version of the plan will pay for itself. and then some. by generating up to $1.8 trillion in new revenue over the next ten years. and then there are two independent analyses and they sharply disagree. the nonpartisan tax policy says it would add $1.3 trillion to the deficit. and the wharton school university is even gloomier.
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presuming $1.8 trillion added to the deficit. wharton is the president's alma mater. he's bragged about it. >> i went to an ivy league college. i was a nice student. i did very well. >> so why is there such a big difference in the estimates? others project at 2.2%. also this morning you've got this "washington post" breakdown that fuels arguments that the republican tax plan benefits the wealthy more than the middle class. this isn't the first time we've seen this. of the $1.5 trillion in planned tax cuts, $1 trillion goes to tax cuts for businesses. $100 billion to the estate tax cuts for the wealthy. $300 billion is spread over ten years to households at all
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income levels. that's it. joining me now is elan mui and also with us jared bernstein now an msnbc contributor. good to have both of you. elan, "washington post" columnist writes this today. white house officials and republican lawmakers have repeatedly claimed their tax plan will unlush such tremendous growth it will pay for itself. nobody credible backs this up. not the tax foundation or tax policy center which uses rosy assumptions about growth. not the penn/wharton budget model, not goldman sachs, not even the joint committee on taxation. congress's internal scorekeepers on such matters has found that the bill would be self-financing. so what does the treasury secretary steve mnuchin know? what does president trump know that these groups don't? >> i don't think it's what they
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know. it's what they're assuming is a one-page analysis of a 479-page bill. >> i can show that one page analysis. >> right. so what they assume, they start with the assumption that the economy will grow at a rate of 2.9% over the course of a decade. then they work backward from that. how much revenue does that generate and will it pay for the size of the tax cuts? and this is really something that is critical to the republican argument here. they say that half of that $1.8 trillion is being generated by a lower corporate tax rate. when you look at the numbers in the plan, obviously it looks like there is a bigger cut for corporations than there are for individuals. but what they say is that tax cut for corporations generate increased jobs, increased investment, and higher wages. and that's how this tax plan then ends up benefitting the middle class primarily. so the challenge here is that they start with their answer which is that it will generate
quote
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2.9% growth. they don't show us how they got there. >> and so today paul ryan was asked about this one-page document and about the congratulations and here's what he said to defend it. >> i think that estimate makes a lot of sense. i think you're going to see -- yousense. you see a wide variety, but i do think we'll have a big positive effect. there will be a locking effect with going into a territorial session, repatriation of dollars. all of those things will mean gig b bigger paychecks, more competition so i do believe that it will bring bigger revenues. >> i want to get your opinion on the locking effect. >> of course donald trump would say that, and the reason this is self-locking is that it would pay for itself or in the case of that one, more than pay for
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itself. this is a plan doing the bidding of republican donors. they are generally people getting paid to have that viewpoint. as you very clearly pointed out, folks across the spectrum, from conservatives to progressives, argue that the plan may offset some of its costs. i'm willing to accept that analysis, but not 100%. the most the conventional estimates will get you to is with 30%. this unlocking effect is, i think, particularly suspicious because corporations are already sitting on literally trillions of dollars that they could be investing if they wanted to. interest rates are very low. they could borrow cheaply. their profitability is near all-time highs. so the idea that tax cuts are going to make them more profitable or unleash or unlock a set of adjustments in these results, it's not credible.
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as ilan stressed, they worked backwards. they tried to get from 5 to 2. they got there, and paul ryan, whose math is curious in these situations, agrees with them. >> we still haven't gotten to the point of what the final bill will look like. they're trying to put the cap state with the tax cut. house republicans in the cap states have concerns. also whether to make individual tax cuts permanent or whether to make the corporate tax rate 20%, 22%? we've heard the president talk about both. is it clear where we're headed on this and would it dr dramatically impact any kind of independent analysis? >> reporter: one thing kevin brady, chairman of the house ways and means committees has
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said, nothing it final yet. increasing the corporate pay could go to increasing some of these provisions. a top senate republican said a final deal on the tax bill may be available as early as today. we are waiting for vice president mike pence to arrive here at the capitol, have lunch with republican senators, so perhaps there will be some discussion of that during that meeting, and we'll wait to find out what exactly they say. >> and jerry, as someone who has been in the middle of these kinds of negotiations, obviously we're in a different world than when you were there, but they were often difficult. where do you see this going? do they get done by christmas? >> it may get done by hanukkah, which is today, by the way. when we say "done," we mean the two sides of the bill reconciled, the house bill and the senate bill working out the very differences you just suggested. look, the momentum is strong here. the desire for posting a big w on the political win is there. i think what's most unfortunate
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is that this bill has really been rammed through without transparency, without hearings, without accountability with a kind of nonsense, noncredible estimates that we were just talking about earlier. but that said, i do think they're on track to get this to the president if not before hanukkah ends, probably before christmas starts. >> elan louie, thank you. thank you, appreciate it. breaking news, charges just filed in yesterday's subway terror attack here in new york city. up next, they reveal the attacker left a message for president trump. you're watching "velshi & ruhle".
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low rates and no hidden fees. find your rate in just two minutes, and take on your debt at sofi.com. about the bombing attempt on new york city's subway. nbc's pete williams reports that right before the attack, the suspect, akayed ullah, posted this message on facebook. trump, you failed to protect your nation. the feds charged him a short time ago, and according to the message left unsealed, he began to investigate making bombs a year ago. it included metal screws which could have made it more deadly, the injuries more severe. the feds say ullah chose to carry out the attack on a weekday because he believed there would be more people on the subway.
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another major story we're following here in southern california where thousands of firefighters continue to battle those wildfires this morning. the largest by far is the thomas fire. now just 20% contained, officials have ordered mandatory evacuations for tens of thousands of residents nearby. the thomas fire has burned more than 230,000 acres. that's nearly a third the size of rhode island. san francisco mayor ed lee passed away last night unexpectedly at the age of 65. he died at san francisco general hospital surrounded by family, friends and colleagues. no cause of death has been given yet. he was the first asian-american mayor of that city. thank you very much for watching this hour of "velshi & ruhle." i'm chris jansing. i'll see you back here at 3:00 eastern time. right now andrea mitchell reports. hey, andrea. >> hey, thank you. right now "andrea mitchell reports," roll tide. one of the most controversial senate races in modern history.
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accused child molester, republican roy moore faces democrat doug jones. is it a fight for the soul of the republican party? >> it's here! this is an important time in alabama's history, and we feel very confident of where we are and how this is going to turn out. judge moore has been consistently wrong about the -- [ cheers and applause ] >> i want to make america great again with president trump. i want america good, but she can't be good until we go back to god. battle for 'bama. both sides bringing out the big guns in a last attempt to win out the voters in a race that could politically change

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