tv The Rachel Maddow Show MSNBC February 5, 2018 9:00pm-10:00pm PST
any kid who grew up during the cold war, this one included, would say this time argues for cool heads, smart decisions, good communications, and knowledge of the risk. otherwise as they say, what could go wrong? that's our broadcast on a monday night as we start a new week, thank you so much for being with us. good night from nbc head quarters in new york. >> it wasn't really a market crash. it was more like a market drunken veering into a ditch and that ditch was icy and couldn't get out and it had to call a tow truck, better metaphor, i think. on friday it seemed like just another bit of surreal in a day on washington when republicans and congress and the trump white house had a political implosion,
the worst day on the russia investigation that didn't involve someone's indictment or a guilty plea on that same day on friday, it seemed like a little bit of news god practical joking that the dow jones that day dropped not just significantly, not just by over 600 points, it dropped specifically by 666 points. it dropped by 666. the number of the beast. i mean, the number of the beast obviously exists in the bible and exists on jared kushner's midtown office building and existed in the wild on that market news on friday, which just seemed so strange. alongside that gigantic political news day. today i'll take your number of the beast from friday and raise you another 1,175 points off the dow. at one point today the dow was down almost 1600 points. just today.
i don't know if it's better or worse there was a weekend over a 2100-point swing. over 8% of market value lost. today alone is the biggest point drop on the dow ever. now why did this happen? what does this mean? a lot of people will tell you they know, nobody really knows. the market speaks in numbers, not in paragraphs. but today we did get a new chair of the federal reserve after president trump fired janet yellen for reasons that have never been totally explained. there are also worries about inflation that could have been factor. it's able that what happened today was just a market correction that the market was artificially high and it has been brought down to a less bubbly size and there isn't one thing that caused it. there have also been recent revelations about the one very large, very significant policy that has been enacted by this
new republican congress and this new republican president. in fact, it was stunning to see the split screen today while the president was in ohio bragging about the impact of his tax bill while networks covering his speech were also covering in little boxes or in split screens covering the dow shedding hundreds and hundreds of points as he spoke about his tax bill. the tax bill is the biggest change to the u.s. tax code in a generation. we've learned over the last few days that it will provide a multi billion-dollar wind fall to multiple individual oil companies. seriously. exxon alone is looking at a $6 billion wind fall just from that one bill, just that one company. and that kind of news is great if you happen to be an oil company. but many at that magnitude, money by the barrel going out the door to corporations, multiple individual corporations getting multi billion-dollar
wind falls, that kind of money has to come from somewhere and one of the revelations of the last few days is that the government is about to hit the debt ceiling sooner than it was going to, a month sooner because of the tax bill. nobody in the republican congress or trump administration liked to dwell on the fact their bill is projected to add $1.5 trillion to the debt and deficit. so i understand as a matter of messaging, they like to avoid that but appears they didn't plan for that consequence of this policy they have just passed. and so having just finished one government shutdown already, which happened on the one-year anniversary of this president taking office, the only time we had a government shut down with one marty in control of the house and senate and white house while we are facing another government shut down thursday night this week, we are also now looking at a very fast oncoming train, which is the debt ceiling that the government has to actively do something to avoid hitting.
nobody has much faith in their ability to avert disasters like that, scheduled shutdowns. i think people have less faith in their ability to avert things when they turn out things faster than they planned for. we don't know exactly what blew up the market today. again, what was the largest single point loss on the dow in the history of days on the dow. but i think it's important to keep in mind despite the weekend happening in between the two market sessions, in terms of when the markets friday satan wrote 666 on its forehead and today double that number dropped. so this is a two-day sell off that is of significant magnitude. that means overnight everybody
is going to be watching the asian markets and european markets and worrying about tomorrow's opening bell in new york, worrying tomorrow is going to be sell off day number three. meanwhile, just to settle everybody's nerves, it's about to be memo day again. >> the reality is that as this investigation has progressed, our own perhaps more significantly the investigation by bob mueller as more and more individuals have either been indicted or plead guilty with the investigation and evidence mounted both in terms of the issue of collusion and obstruction. there is a rising sense of panic clearly within the white house, and as well on the hill and as a result, we see a tactic we have often seen in criminal cases where when the facts are increasingly incriminating of the defendant, there is an effort to put the government on trial. >> adam schiff of california, the top democrat in the
intelligence committee speaking to reporters tonight on capitol hill as he announced that as he put it quote, the five-day clock is ticking. the white house tonight has started that five-day clock from ticking because they have been sent a classified memo written by schiff and others and the democrats say their memo outs the effort by republican members of congress to try to block the fbi's criminal investigation into the president and his campaign by releasing miss leading information and the way it's been conducted. on friday republicans on the intelligence committee they scored an own goal with the much toted release of the classified memo they promised over a period of weeks, they promised would derail the entire russia investigation. they probably realize they would have been better off never actually releasing the thing, continuing to hype it existed but never letting anybody see
it. essentially, this was -- this was put up or shut up moment. this was a put up or shut up moment when putting up was not the better of the two options. the central claim of their weeks of hype, their whole campaign to release the memo is somehow this memo would prove the dossier by an mi 6 officer christopher steele, the campaign was based around the idea this memo would prove that the steele dossier is what led to the whole russia investigation. now the problem with that argument with having created that expectation about the secret memo is the secret memo actually conceded that it was not the christopher steele dossier. the fbi started a counter intelligence probe into the trump campaign's ties with russia because of what turned
out to be well-founded counter intelligence concerns about a particular trump campaign guy who didn't turn up in the dossier. a guy christopher steele said he never heard of when the fbi went to him and asked him if he knew anything about this particular trump guy. that was the first big problem. we're going to prove this thing and here is our memo that disproves that thing. field at that level. then the memo claimed out right in black and white that to the extent the fbi had sited the steel dossier in this application for a search warrant on a different advisor to the trump campaign, republican memo said to the extent they referred to the steel dossier, they said the fbi hadn't told the judge at the time that dossier came from a political source, it was opposition research on donald trump. well, as soon as the republican memo came out on friday with that claim in black and white, democrats started crying foul insisting that that specifically was not true. they said the judge was told about the political origin's steel material.
then over the weekend, "the washington post" confirmed with multiple sources that in fact, the judge had been told that the source of the dossier was political opposition research. then finally this morning the republican author of this memo congressman devin nunes, the memo that said the judge was never told about the political origins of the steel memo. he confirmed the judge was told. so the dossier started the fbi investigation, no it didn't. the judge wasn't told about the political origins. yes, the judge was told. the republican memo on friday after weeks of hype, it -- a lot of people said it was a dud. i don't think it was a dud. did you play with fireworks when you were a kid? did your parents tell you was the most dangerous thing playing with fireworks?
your protection. my dad always told me about fireworks, be ware of the apparent dud because it might not be a dud, might be slow. and sometimes more dangerous to have something not go off initially than it is just to have a big exciting firework where you know what it's going to do. this wasn't so much a dud. it was a firework with a faulty fuse. so it didn't provide the show it was supposed to when you thought it was going to but it did end up posing a danger to the people who were trying to set it off. democrats now say they plan to use the republican memo fiasco from friday against republicans, against congressional republican incumbents when they are all up for reelection. congratulations, you released the memo. it will be used in a million attack ads against you. it remains remarkably an open question as to whether the white house itself was involved in
coming up with this scheme. the scheme to release classified information to try to exonerate the white house and indict the fbi in the russia investigation. so far, neither the house republicans who created this nor the white house will answer directly when asked if there was white house involvement in this whole scheme in the creation of this document, and the whole idea behind it. democrats are starting to realize they are on to something with this line of questioning and into this evening they are continuing to push it. >> i also want to say that my colleague again and repeatedly asked the chairman whether he or any of his staff had consulted with, coordinated, conception this memo in combination with the white house. we know after all the chairman embarked on a similar effort to coordinate a campaign early on in the investigation and once again, mr. nunes refused to
answer the questions. at the very end of the hearing, he gave a very lawyerly written response or read a written response saying that the white house had not been involved in the actual drafting of the memo but in terms of whether it was coordinated with the white house or they were consulted or strategized the concept, he refused to answer the questions. >> this remains an open question. i thought this would be settled by now. i thought they would be able to just be clear with people. no, we didn't have anything to do with it. this is an open question. was this not just a congressional republican effort to defend the white house by ginning up this false controversy? this the white house to gin up this false controversy involving the fbi? with an open justice inquiry, that would be a very, very high risk move for this white house.
particularly given this other new outstanding issue they created by trying to pull off this stunt and that is legal is t -- precedent. when the president decided to declassify that memo, he would be able to fire everybody. everything. when the president made this decision to release this classified memo, that may very well have created a new legal precedent around the release of classified information of this type. the president personally may have essentially set a whole new standard for the public release of fisa related information and classified information of this type on the basis of the president's decision friday to declassify that republican memo, "the new york times" today has already filed a motion requesting the public release of the information on which this memo was based because the president has established a new
standard for when and why and how information like that gets to the public. did president trump know he was making new law about highly classified material when he made this decision he would release the republican memo before he had read it? did he know he was doing that? i have no idea but it appears he may very well have done that and that revelation ends up being really important tonight as the white house receives a new democratic memoranda. it's based on that same classified information that was the basis of that republican memo last week. this democratic memo, this -- this is going to be a big deal this week. a week ago tonight all the republicans on that committee voted that the democratic memo shouldn't be released. today the republicans on the committee changed their mind and voted it should be released. all right.
so it was a unanimous vote on the intelligence committee. democrats and republicans voting to send the democratic memo on the same subject as the ones the republicans released on friday and voted unanimously to send it to the white house where president trump has five days to announce whether he has any objections to releasing the memo the same way he released the republican one on friday. it would be awkward for him to refuse to release the democratic memo. he made the decision to release the republican memo based on the same classified information. he promised somebody at the state of the union he would release it before we now know he had even read it. if the president nevertheless decides he wants to block the publication of the democrats document, which is based on the same classified info, that will be awkward. i don't think the president minds awkward. what could the democrats do? they could, if the president blocks them, try to bring the matter to the house of
representatives that could vote to over ride the president's decision and there by release this document from the democrats without the president's permission. some of the republicans would vote to do so. all the republicans on the intelligence committee voted this should be out. so this is -- i mean, the memo thing on friday was a tremendous fiasco after two weeks after incredible republican and fox news hype. this next stage of it, this democratic memo which is being reviewed, this will be five days of interesting stand off. one of the democrats behind that strategy, one of the democrats intimately involved in that process and fight will be joining us live in just a second to talk about what the implications are and how they will approach this strategically now that the president has the president's document. i'll leave you with one final matter on this -- one final point on this same matter.
the basis for all these shenanigans, the subject of the republicans memo on friday, the subject of the rebuttal memo from the democrats, the basis of all this toing and froing from both sides is carter page. the republican argument bottom line is the russia investigation is bogus. there never should have been fbi counter intelligence interest, let alone investigation or court ordered surveillance of a trump advisor like carter page. >> the director of the fbi is well aware of my concerns about mr. page and i don't believe somebody like mr. page should be a target of the fbi. >> congressman devin nunes has been leading the charge. i don't believe mr. paige should be the target. "time magazine" said he was an
advisor to the kremlin. first reported this weekend at "time magazine" in august 2013 carter page wrote a letter in a dispute over a manuscript they didn't publish, but in it he bragged to them in this letter over the past half year, i had the privilege to serve as an informal advisor to the staff of the kremlin. august 2014. two months before then, june 2013 is when the fbi paid a visit to carter page two counter intelligence officers from the fbi visiting him in person to tell him he had been handing documents over to a russian spy ring in new york city trying to recruit him. now, you would expect that, you know, that the outcome of a visit like that from the fbi might be to make a person feel very self-conscious, worried or mortified in a sense they had
unwittingly become the target of russian spies and been duped by their spy operation and they have been unwittingly handing over documents to the kremlin for intelligence purposes to use against our country. that's what you might expect would be the product of a visit like that but apparently in carter page's case in 2013 he saw that visit from the fbi as confirmation that he had been working with the kremlin. which was then worth bragging about, at least to publishers within weeks of the fbi visit. i realize that we are still very much engaged in this fight about the surveillance of carter page. the origins and the congressional investigations into the russia matter that will all still continue to be fought over including tonight and especially i think over the course of this week. that will get hotter and not cooler over the next five days but at its heart, ask yourself this question, why did the trump campaign hire carter page of all
people to be one of their five foreign policy advisors? no political profile. no national security profile. no foreign policy profile at all but a russian intelligence problem and a serious one. out of all the people in the world, why did they pick him? and george papadopoulos. and mike flynn. and paul manafort. those were all weird choices. why did they all end up on the trump campaign? what do they all have in common? we'll be right back. 6 plus vitamin d for bone health support. your one a day is showing.
i had a very minor fender bender tonight! in an unreasonably narrow fast food drive thru lane. but what a powerful life lesson. and don't worry i have everything handled. i already spoke to our allstate agent, and i know that we have accident forgiveness. which is so smart on your guy's part. like fact that they'll just... forgive you... four weeks without the car. okay, yup. good night. with accident forgiveness your rates won't go up just because of an accident. switching to allstate is worth it.
we don't talk about committee business. [ laughter ] >> we don't talk about committee. you know the rules. we don't talk about committee business. one reporter said you did to fox today. pause and the other one goes and on friday. house intelligence committee chairman devin nunes giving reporters the cold shoulder tonight and reporters giving it back to him moments after the committee voted to release the gop memo declassified on friday. the democratic version, the democratic rebuttal is at the white house where a five-day window has opened during which the president can decide if he wants to block its release or not and while we're following that story, we're following breaks news tonight about the critical question whether the president will be interviewed by special counsel robert mueller.
lawyers for president trump advised him against sitting down for a wide-ranging interview with robert mueller. according to the new reporting, the lawyers that want the president not to sit down is john dowd and mr. dowd's deputy that you've probably seen on the fox news channel but apparently the president's lawyers are divided. one of the few voices arguing for cooperating with mr. mueller is ty cobb, another russian lawyer for the president that works in the white house and is considered to be white house staff. i'll say i get the president's lawyers having varying advice for him on this subject but do they get to decide if the president wants to, and he said publicly he wants to, can he just over rule them and do it? and even if the president decides he doesn't want to and his lawyers don't want him to, does the special counsel have the ability to compel him to testify anyway? joining us is democratic congressman eric.
thanks for being here. let me ask you about the democratic memo, you democrats on the house intelligence committee i understand have drafted that is essentially a rebuttal what republicans released on friday. is it fair to understand that on friday? >> yes, it's a document we hoped would never see the light of the day. it's the only way i believe to cure the poisonous rhetoric. >> the white house, as i understand it, have a five-day window during which the president could decide to block the release of this information at least to block this information from being released by the same mean the republican memo was blocked by. -- was released by. what do you expect to happen
over the next five days at the white house? the president was telegraphing from disdain and anger. >> if the president wants to be honest, he'll allow a memo that's free of any edits. we asked for them to review the memo if there's any national security risks of information getting out but in context of what's already out there. as we said, we think the only anecdote to the undermining is for the american people to have a full picture of what happened and for us to move on and co-do our job and restart interviewing witnesses in the investigation. . >> the way you're describing the damage when by what the rerepublican released on friday, what the president okayed, if the president blocks yur home moe, the release of it, and that's within his power to do. i understand there is another path in releasing this where the entire house takes a vote on releasing this matter and it's
either read into the congressional record or released directly. do you expect if they block it, that's the way it goes. >> i would inspect devin nunes would be the person who stood on the floor and asked his colleagues to support it. he supported it today in the committee. i'm worried a dangerous precedent is being set here by releasing information to the white house, because they are giving the white house evidence that exists in the case. we want our memo out there to give the full picture, but we can't go down the road where we're giving subjects and witnesses an investigation, evidence that investigators hold very close, and i'm afraid that that is done intentionally so that the trump team knows what's out there. i think that's why they continue to pursue the selective release of committee transcripts and information held by the dodge department of justice. >> do you believe the information they released on friday was designed to interfere
with the investigations ongoing? do you think it will do some harm? >> it will. people said no sources an meths were disclosed. they were. the argument that we're making is just because they were publicly known because of press reporting, it's never been the practice at the department of justice to acknowledge sources and methods. mr. steele's identity was disclosed. his long-standing history as a source was disclosed. when we need people to come forward and be sources, they'll think twice and worry that their cooperation could be outed because of the political winds. >> one last question. i understand that steve bannon, former white house strategist and a man who used to run the trump campaign has been issued a subpoena to appear before the committee tomorrow. that's the second or third time to get him behind closed doors for questioning. do you expect him to be there tomorrow? >> i do.
i expect my colleagues if he doesn't show up to issue and start contempt proceedings. because he is the only witness where they moved quite expeditiously when he refused to answer questions, they gave him a subpoena within an hour. i don't know if he's made enemies, but every witness should be shown that type of investigative interest, but if he does not show up tomorrow or answer the questions, i think he needs to be held in contempt. >> as his testimony been deconflicted with the mueller investigation? i understand there's sensitivity about not interfering with an ongoing investigation. in terms of him being cleared to testify, is it a problem? >> that's something that ranking member schiff and mike conaway sort out. that's never been a reason given to us. we've been told the worst of all reasons, that the white house does not want him to talk. they're not asserting executive privilege. what they're doing is something worse. they're standing on no privilege and saying he can't tell us
anything that happened during the transition once he joined the white house, and once he left the white house. and so that's actually a privilege without any legal authority. >> congressman of california, member of the house intelligence committee, appreciate your time tonight. >> my pleasure. >> lots more to get to. we have somebody here that's a big deal coming up. stay with us. oh, you brought butch. yeah! (butch growls at man) he's looking at me right now, isn't he? yup. (butch barks at man) butch is like an old soul that just hates my guts. (laughs) (vo) you can never have too many faithful companions. that's why i got a subaru crosstrek. love is out there. find it in a subaru crosstrek.
coaching means making tough choices. jim! you're in! but when you have high blood pressure and need cold medicine that works fast, the choice is simple. coricidin hbp is the #1 brand that gives powerful cold symptom relief without raising your blood pressure. coricidin hbp. (avo) if you'rand you've triedlly pain any number of laxatives, probiotics,
and fiber, it could be wearing on you. tell your doctor what you've tried and how long you've been at it. linzess works differently from laxatives. linzess treats adults with ibs with constipation or chronic constipation. it can help relieve your belly pain and lets you have more frequent and complete bowel movements that are easier to pass. do not give linzess to children less than six, and it should not be given to children six to less than eighteen. it may harm them. don't take linzess if you have a bowel blockage. get immediate help if you develop unusual or severe stomach pain, especially with bloody or black stools. the most common side effect is diarrhea, sometimes severe. if it's severe stop taking linzess and call your doctor right away. other side effects include gas, stomach-area pain, and swelling. ask your doctor if 90 days of linzess may be right for you. renein the caribbean.onder... for a limited time enjoy two free perks,
like complimentary wi-fi and drinks. a savings up to $300 when you book now, during the celebrity cruises sail beyond event. renein the caribbean.onder... for a limited time enjoy two free perks, like complimentary wi-fi and drinks. a savings up to $300 when you book now, during the celebrity cruises sail beyond event.
gone zoe, over the top, stop everything scandals at any other time. but because they're happening now, in this administration, in the context of lots of ethics scandals all at once and daily bursts of unprecedented behavior and speech by the president and honestly because of the existential scandal that looms over everything else they do because of the russia scandal and the special counsel investigation, basically a lot of stuff that would be a really big scandal in every other administration you can think of happens here every week. we just kind of mark these things and then watch them pass. today, for example, the administration formally withdrew the nomination for the new ambassador to singapore. it's kt mcfarland. the trump administration had initially hired her to be deputy
national security adviser to flynn. then they decided they would move her to singapore instead. in the men time when flynn was indicted, the statement of the offense submitted, they explained a bunch of new details we didn't know before about flynn's conversations with the russian government during the transition. we learned he lied to the fbi. we learned he talked to the russians about sanctions even though he and everyone else lied publicly and said he didn't. and we learned flynn wasn't making the comments as a rogue actor. he was in contact with trump transition officials all the way by e-mails robert mueller obtained discussing flynn having these conversations with russia about sanctions. now one of the officials who was sending e-mails about flynn's conversations with the russians was kt mcfarland.
here's the problem with that. pratt and apart from the prosecution of general flynn, when she got nominated to be ambassador to singapore, she was asked in her confirmation hearing if she had discussed confirmation about contact with kislyak directly with flynn? she had. but she told the senate that she had not. and in any other administration, that would be an above the fold scandal for a long time. ambassador nominee and former deputy to disgrace national security adviser lies to senate is exposed by e-mails, the presidential transition didn't know it would be handed over to prosecuters. you see this spinning out. it goes on for a while in the movie. in any other administration, that's how it would be. because this is our life now, it's like oh, i wonder if she's going to go back to fox. do they have a spot on the weekends? all right. and that's just one.
the head of the cdc just resigned over financial conflicts of interest. the hud secretary reportedly used his new job to steer business to his son and daughter-in-law. he's welcoming an investigation. congress didn't even pretend to start an inquiry. the interior secretary makes one fly a special flag when he entered the head quarters, the latest is he's trying to stop indian tribe casinos after he was lobbied to do it after the tribe's rival casino operators. the president's son's wedding planner was put in charge of the -- a handyman just got moved into a senior head quarters job at epa. the president said maybe it
should be treason the dt democrats didn't clap hard enough for him at the presidential address. this one, it's par for the course. just a day's news. but there is one of these that is life or death. and that has given date of birth to some truly, truly tremendous journalism. and that story is next. this is something that i'm really passionate about- i really want to help. i was on my way out of this life.
there are patients out there that don't have a lot of time. finally, it was like the sun rose again and i was going to start fighting back now. when those patients come to me and say, "you saved my life...." my life was saved by a two week old targeted therapy drug. that's what really drives me to- to save lives. ♪ cleaning floors with a mop and bucket is a hassle, meaning you probably don't clean as often as you'd like. for a quick and convenient clean, try swiffer wetjet. there's no heavy bucket, or mop to wring out, because the absorb and lock technology traps dirt and liquid inside the pad. it's safe to use on all finished surfaces tile, laminate and hardwood. and it prevents streaks and hazing better than a micro fiber strip mop, giving you a thorough clean the first time. for a convenient clean, try swiffer wetjet with a money back guarantee. brand power. helping you buy better. he gets the best deal on the perfect hotel by using.
there's a job in the world called special in respect general for afghanistan reconstruction. congress made the job in 200 8. they have oversight on to the money spent there. john sopko is nobody's fool and is in that job. he ask questions like what happened to the planes that we paid money for and what about that police training center that was built so well with taxpayer dollars that it literally melts when it rains. he put out his 28th quarterly report. january 30th of this year, the 38th report. he reported there's nothing new going on. the defense department has instructed him to stop releasing public unclassified data about what we're doing in afghanistan and how well or poorly it's working. quote, this quarter is department of defense instructed the special inspector general to
not release data on the number of districts controlled or influenced by the afghanistan government or insurgents. they were informed the defense department has determined that although the most recent numbers are unclassified, they're not releasable to the public. this is troubling for a lot of reasons. this is the first time their office has been specifically instructed not to release information marked as unclassified to the american taxpay taxpayer. if you go to the bottom of the nearly 300-page report, on page 251 you'll see a number of redactions. these are 'dxs requested by the defense department. it's unclassified information, information that until now you as an american taxpayer had a right to see but you can't see it anymore. trump scandals and trump administration failures. they really are different from most recent administrations. he really is a different kind of president.
but after president bush started the war in afghanistan and president obama spent a long time working on getting us out of there but didn't, there is clearly something about this car that is intractable despite who is president is. it's like the only political norm that trump can't actually break. this new president who is nothing like any president we've had in some ways is rolling into year 17 of that same war. he's walked trump like about mining afghanistan for profit. i mean, as president trump takes his own turn at the helm here, and simultaneously moves to cut off the america's window if how poorly the military is doing there or how well. does anyone now why we're still there? steve call spent 20 years at "the washington post." he won a prize for his reporting
at the prize and another one for his book "ghost wars". it's the prehistory of 9/11. he should have one another award for "private empire" but he was robbed. now he's written "directorats skts. it's a brutal story. thank you for being here. >> thank you. >> first of all, did you know when you started writing ghost wars, that you'd write up to 9/11 and write the post history? >> absolutely not. it took me a while to decide that there was a second part that was worth doing, because the world was in such chaos after september 11th, the war in iraq and the rest, i wasn't sure how to create a second volume. ten years later, one has been dragged across the finish line. i'm glad about that. >> this is a reporting master
work, and i am a humble, huge fan of yours. and everything you've ever worked on, particularly at book length. what i find remarkable about this story is i feel like you do answer the question of why it's 17 years in afghanistan and nobody knows why we're there. essentially your answer is that it's pakistan and that that is something that nobody's come close to solving. >> that's right. and it kind of confused it over and over again about what our war aims were in afghanistan. if the problems that we most feared, al qaeda, why were we sending tens and thousands of troops to afghanistan? it's an indirect and muddled proposition almost from the beginning, and then again and again presidents confronted the truth about pakistan was accepting large amounts of our aid and sending militias in to kill our soldiers.
how do you pressure them to stop doing that? if you're an unstable country that you don't want their weapons on the wrong hands, there's confront on how much you can do no matter how much you threaten. >> two bleak bottom lines on that. work with me. one is that pakistan's involvement in the afghanistan war has been specifically designed to make sure that america's effort never succeeds, that american troops sacrifice, and results never settle in an outcome that america might want. part of the reason for a 17 year war with no end is because pakistan wants that and they're closer and they can do that. the other bottom line here which i find very bleak here is that their strategy of obtaining nuclear weapons worked in terms of making them untouchable in normal national security terms. >> that's dead right. i think those are both crucial
incites as to why we have grind -- have been grinding against the same problem without really moving it for so long. and look, pakistan's a sovereign country with a talented population. it's an american failure, leaders were angry about the hubris they saw bringing into the afghan war sending terrorists across the border into their cities, blowing up their buildings. they said we have to take care of our business and their view of afghanistan was not compatible with the american and nato vision of a constitutional democracy that would be allied with the international community including india. the more pakistan's general saw india's hand in the afghan equation, the more they tried to gain influence of their own. >> there's a mike flynn factor in this book that i think is going to surprise people.
bed with adjustable comfort on both sides. ends soon. visit sleepnumber.com for a store near you. aah! ...i would have said you were crazy. but so began the year of me. i discovered the true meaning of paperless discounts... and the indescribable rush of saving drivers an average of $620. why does fear feel so good? i fell in love three times -- once with a woman, once with a country, and finally... with myself. -so, do you have anything to declare or not? -isn't that what i'm doing?
guess shouldn't have surprised me but i didn't see it coming. general michael flynn. general flynn obviously was high ranking intelligence officer. you document his role in the afghan war here in a way that i think will be eye opening to a lot of people who only know him because of his trump administration controversies. given your reporting on him for this book, what do you make of what ended up happening to him? >> he was promoted above the level he was suited for when he was appointed to lead the defense intelligence agency. he spent years and years on the battle field. he was a door kicker like what's over that hill? how should we take this convoy so our people don't get hurt? when he got back to washington, he got into a system where he had strong views about what should be done but not the subtlety or the experience, and then when he got fired during the obama administration, i
think set him off a course i can't explain entirely. it's very different from what he was in the military. >> you also -- nobody comes off well, i should say in the book. spoiler alert. the state department comes off marginally has having a slightly better understanding at some points. are you concerned about the real atrophy of the state department under tillerson? >> deeply. we keep going out to afghanistan and saying we can't win this war militarily, and yet, and generals say there, not just civilians. and yet we keep prioritizing military action to ultimately make -- replace it. we need diplomacy. we need a state department that's out active negotiating for whatever is possible in a difficult region. >> and that has smart people that know their stuff. >> exactly. >> steve, now the dean of colombia graduate school of
journalism. steve, congratulations. >> thank you. >> we'll be right back. yes, we are twins. when i went on to ancestry, i just put in the name of my parents and my grandparents. i was getting all these leaves and i was going back generation after generation. you start to see documents and you see signatures of people that you've never met. i mean, you don't know these people, but you feel like you do. you get connected to them. i wish that i could get into a time machine and go back 100 years, 200 years and just meet these people. being on ancestry just made me feel like i belonged somewhere. discover your story. start searching for free now at ancestry.com. what can a president [ do in thirty seconds? he can fire an fbi director who won't pledge his loyalty.
he can order the deportation of a million immigrant children. he can threaten an unstable dictator armed with nuclear weapons. he can go into a rage and enter the nuclear launch codes. how bad does it have to get before congress does something? you can switch and save time. it pays to switch things up. [cars honking] [car accelerating]
you can switch and save worry. ♪ you can switch and save hassle. [vacuuming sound] and when you switch to esurance, you can save time, worry, hassle and yup, money. in fact, drivers who switched from geico to esurance saved hundreds. so you might want to think about pulling the ol' switcheroo. that's auto and home insurance for the modern world. esurance. an allstate company. click or call. it's one of the nights when the news keeps happening. update on two stories already over the course of this hour. both of which have developed materially. first there is a cnn report now that steve bannon will not appear before the white house intelligence committee tomorrow despite a subpoena to do so. again, nbc news has not confirmed it but there's an initial report that bannon will
defy the report. that's one to watch. also we talked at the top of the hour about the huge market sell off friday and today. friday 666 points off the dow. today almost 1200 >> i just learned there is such a thing as dow futures. that's how concerned i am with the stock market. good to know. and i just learned that steve bannon is once again delaying his cooperation, if we can call it cooperation. i'm not sure what you call it at this point. >> nbc news hasn't confirmed that he's not going to appear. we heard from the horse's mouth, mike conway, who's sort of the acting chair on russia matters