tv MSNBC Live With Ali Velshi MSNBC March 14, 2018 12:00pm-1:00pm PDT
this -- what this does not mean, it does not mean evil will triumph or that we may do nothing. it does not mean we should turn against one another. >> that right there will wrap things up for us this hour. ali velshi picks things up from washington. >> i'm ali velshi. all day as katie said we've been seeing powerful scenes across the country tens of thousands of students are leading a nationwide walkout in honor of the mass shooting that took place a month ago today in parkland florida, they are armed with a resounding message for this country's leaders, never again. one of the largest rallies was in d.c. with students this morning sitting with their backs to the white house in a moment of silence. just as the president revooled a school safety -- revealed a school safety plan more in line with the national rifle association than with the policy changes the students are rallying for.
the tru-- trump isn't in d.c., s getting ready to hold a rally at a boeing plant. students left their classrooms for 17 minutes at exactly 10:00 a.m. local time. a wave of walkouts one hour apart in each time zone. they were 17 minutes long. to honor the 17 people killed in the school shooting at marjory stoneman douglas high school in florida. here is just a bit of what we heard. >> we're stepping up to protect our kids and our students. >> i'm in 11th grade and i stand here today and tell you that you could do this. >> the -- from -- gun violence -- i just saw him not too long ago and after -- i just
can't -- all i have to say is gun violence needs to stop. >> what is going on in schools is not okay. there needs to be change. i shouldn't be afraid to walk into school. my piers shouldn -- my peers shouldn't be afraid to walk into school and little kids shouldn't be either. school should be a safe place rather than a war zone. >> and next week on march 24th survivors from marjory stoneman douglas, some barely teenagers will spearhead another massive rally in washington, d.c. called march for our lives. they'll have the support of sther marches from cities east to west. our reporters are on the ground covering aum of the action across the country. let's start in our nation's capitol where marianna has been talking to students throughout the course of the day. >> reporter: it was such a solemn and energetic day here on the nation's capitol. it started out with the 17-minute moment of silence in front of the white house. you had organizers expecting
1500 students. they ended up getting almost 4,000 according to one police officer i spoke to. after they gave their backs to the white house, they all started marching toward capitol hill, behind me, demanding change from lawmakers. they heard from senator bernie sanders and from veteran civil rights leader john lewis, which provided that inner-generational dialog that motivated a lot of kids today and saw senator elizabeth warren. i asked what was it about parkland that ignited these change and she said it is the kids that kept the momentum and that is a wrap up here on the nation's capitol. and we'll see more action here on the 24th. so not an issue that is going away at all. >> thank you. marianna here in washington. let's go to jacob soberoff on the ground in los angeles. a little quiet now but a busy
morning, jacob. >> reporter: it was extraordinary out here. we are -- it feels about as far as you could be away on the continental united states from washington, d.c. los angeles is not a place with some of the strictest gun control laws in the nation that you would expect 2,500 students to walk out two hours ago out of that door here at hamilton high school in solid air wiarity wit students across the country and despite the second biggest school district with hundreds of thousands of students threatened disciplinary action if they left campus and went out into the streets. we heard passionate calls for gun control from the students on the steps of their school. we just saw moments ago students from another school walk with lots of los angeles police department officers in tow right here to the steps of hamilton high school. and to get the students to come out and join forces with them. it is something that they want to take all the way to washington, d.c. and that is saying something for kids out
here in los angeles. >> jacob, i saw you talking to people through the course of the day. what is the sort of a common thread in the messages that they had? >> reporter: i think they just want to be heard quite frankly. and that is something whether it is an election time or not. you hear from young people quite often -- we have to remember many students out here are not even of age to vote. they are not 18. but even from the 16-year-olds to 17-year-olds, they just want those politicians to hear that they have a voice and it is a voice that they want represented back in washington, d.c. >> jacob, thank you very much for your great coverage. jacob soberoff in california. today's walk out is the first of rallies in a couple of weeks organized by students. today's event organized by women's march youth and power has this call to action. to highlight the need to prevent all acts of against violence including those that happen on our city streets, in our homes, in our places of worship and in our schools. with me now is 16-year-old
tansel philip a sophomore at marjory stoneman douglas and one of the drivers in this change since surviving the tragedy in his own school. good to talk to you again. we have spoken since this happened. and i have to say, i think you and i both would have been amazed to know that you and your classmates have sparked a discussion that has stayed alive and continue to put pressure on politicians here in washington and across the country. >> thank you for having me. it's been crazy. but we never thought we would have to do any of this. so we're -- we're glad to know that our voices are being heard. >> there is certainly -- they're certainly bebei-- being heard. they were heard in the governor's office in florida. this is a governor who has the support of the nra who is very, very supportive of the nra and he took certain steps and said certain things that were at odds with what the nra was doing, including raising the age at which you can buy an assault rifle from 18 to 21, he doesn't seem to be in favor of arming
teachers as the president's position. do you feel that you and your classmates and the supporters you have had an impact there in florida? >> we definitely feel like we've had a big impact on that. obviously there is more that could be done and we're very grateful that he put his party aside and sided with us and what -- what our lives mean. so when he came up with all of the new proposals that went against the nra and went against his party, we feel like our voices were heard because i know when we went there, he was writing things down and he definitely listens to us. >> you grabbed the megaphone and said today, what do we want? gun control now. i guess something that you faced in the last month is the complexity of what those two words "gun control" mean. to you it is safety and not having to confront ever again what horror you and your fellow students at marjory stoneman douglas confronted but i think you are coming out there and
realizing that one person's gun control is not the same as another's in this country. >> our basic premise is that with school shootings and movie theater shootings and church shootings and concert shootings, there is one thing in common and it is not always mental illness, it is the gun. so when we talk about that, that is where our gun control comes from. we -- we shouldn't allow ar-15s to be in the hands of regular day citizens. they are military-grade rifles. >> what do you think about the coming weeks? march 24th they'll be a lot of people here in washington. but the ownous is on you, you started this and to keep it going. but you have students and have school to do. how is this movement sustaining itself? >> we're definitely having a lot of support from teachers and parents. i know today the walk to pine trails after the 17 minutes was not planned. but we got phone calls saying
that we wouldn't be disciplined for it. they're very -- they're very supportive of us so that helps. we are still figuring out what is next but we're taking it one day at a time and i know the march in d.c. is going to be huge. and the sister marches all over the world will be huge and we hope it makes a big impact. >> thank you for what you've done to bring our attention to everything going on. i remember being with you a month ago and i wouldn't have guessed this would be the outcome but i'm glad that you have taken this message and you've kept it alive. tans ill philip from parkland, florida. now to the student protests in chicago where nearly 3000 people have been shot from january to october just last year. my colleague ron mott spoke to the students this morning who lived through gun violence every single day and they are saying enough is enough. >> i've lost family members and had a cousin who shot but was sur vived.
it is personal when i hear about the other kids dying, even what happened in parkland, that is personal because i've had cousins lost and friends who lost family members as well. i know that as a black man in chicago that could be me or any of my other cousins or my friends. >> i want to talk to someone from chicago. who was out walking with these students today. former education secretary arne duncan who tre-- tweeted this morning, getting ready to walk with children for national school walkout. ask them how many know someone who has been shot. almost every hand went up. joining me now, arne duncan and before serving as education secretary, he served from 2001 to 2008. this is an important part of the story. because kids who want to feel safe in schools or in their churches or in homes or wherever, there are a lot of reasons they are unsafe. some is because people buy ar-15s at a young age and some is because of mental health and some because there are some
violent streets out there. what of this message can be applied to places like chicago? >> it is just a really emotional day. and i asked that same question -- i asked this morning every time i'm in schools, and tragically every time 75% and 80% of hands go up. and our kids are living with a level of violence and a level of fear and a level of trauma that is almost indescribable. but i have to say, i got emotional not out of sadness but out of home and the kids inspire me. what the kids from parkland are doing is extraordinary. that the country has changed in this past month, and we have kid from chicago who visit with them in florida last saturday. this tl are kids from florida and coming to visit to us this saturday. as the kids come together, i'm convinced that the world is going to change. so very emotional day for me today. but more hopeful than i've been in a long, long time. and my family and i will go march with them in d.c. on the 24th. >> arnie, the situation is
different in chicago. it is not legal for a 19-year-old to walk into a school and not just with a semi automatic rifle but with a handgun. chicago has some of the strongest gun laws in the country and yet people die. people die a lot. >> yeah. well as you know, chicago is not an island. and unfortunately we live half an hour from indiana. and in indiana has some of the most lax gun laws in the nation. and so this is a national crisis. this is a national tragedy. and it has to have a national response. this can't be solved city by city or even state by state. our country unfortunately -- i believe this -- values our guns more than our children and that has to change. we as adults have failed and our kids will force the change. and lead us to where we need to go, which is to a safer united states and a safer society. >> arnie, a lot of messages about what teachers should be doing. i spoke with randy wine garden the other day who said her union members, many of whom are nra members or have been in the
military, many of them know how to carry guns and some do, are not interested in being responsible for student safety in the classroom because it runs counter to what they want to do. and what they feel teachers should be doing. >> this simply isn't a school issue. as the student who you were interviewing earlier said so soel -- so eloquently, this is in malls and movie theaters and on a congressional ballpark and this is a united states and made in america issue and we have to fix it. >> what is the fix? is it simply that if -- in chicago you can get those guns from indiana which has lax laws, is it about gun control or is there another matter about the way we see -- we interpret the second amendment and the love with guns that has to be addressed culturally. >> it is not about the second amendment. anybody who wants to hunt deer
or moose or geese oar turkeys, that is faunt. nobo nobody wants to take that away. and the idea that you have weapons of war, assault weapons throughout society doesn't make sense. they belong on a battlefield, not in normal every day america. >> but in chicago, most people who are getting gunned down are nopt getting gunned down by assault weapons. these are handguns. >> that is correct. and we have to look at background checks and the easy availability of those guns. but we're a nation obsessed with our guns. and if people want to get -- if they want to hunt or protect their homes, no one has any problem with that. it is when they hunt children when we have to stand up and say enough is enough. >> arne duncan former education secretary under president obama. thank you. right now the president is in st. louis meeting with officials from boeing where they are talking taxes and tariffs as relearning the president has picked his new economic adviser larry kudlow. a senior contributor for cnbc
said he would be honored to accept the job. as for the markets reaction, not real reaction at all. the markets were down -- they were down more after the announcement but i can't tell you whether that is a trittuable to larry kudlow or just about a 1% down day on the market in general. i want to have a conversation about larry kudlow and what impact this -- this appointment could have on the administration. i'm joined byron insana who knows larry well. larry kudlow -- if gary cohn left because he was at odds with the president on tariffs, larry kudlow would be more at odds with the president than gary cohn was. how do you square the circle. >> it could be squared that larry has known donald trump for a considerable period of time. much longer than gary cohn ever did. he's been advising him since the start of his campaign on things like tax policy. which quite frankly helped to design the tax reform package that passed the congress and signed by the president, was at
least in part designed by larry and the likes of art laugher and steven more who wanted a large tax cut for the economic recovery. on the trade issue, he said he might soften his stance to an extent that where larry has often said he is a complete free market ear, he does become more pragmatic and when it come to-- comes to the issue of china which the white house is targeting, he preferred targeted sanctions or some time of protectionist measures rather than the blanket tariffs that the president proposed in the last week or so. >> ron, i'm worried for the country that president trump, when he was running for president on the basis of that economic plan that those people you talked about helped him put together. he said we're going to have four and five and 6% economic growth and then they said the tax breaks will get us there. larry is a strong believer in that, i got into it with him on msnbc last year because he says it. he says that these tax cuts will
stimulate growth to a level that no one is projecting and will not help out this -- will not give us the debt that a lot of people are projecting the tax cuts will. at some juncture are you worried that someone is not telling the president the truth about this stuff. >> well philosophically, despite the fact that larry and i are close friends and i do like him a great deal, we've known each other for three decades and we have a different opinion on the tax cuts and the growth and the ability to pay for themselves and whether they pay for themselves. we have a philosophical difference about that and we've aired it out on cnbc and elsewhere and through a variety of different op ed pieces so we don't share that view. but i think larry would bring a dose of pragmatism to those on the trade front to people like pete ear nav ouro who want to get aggressive and pull out of nafta which larry said is a disastrous deal.
i don't think we'll ever change larry's mind about the impact of tax cuts on the economic growth that you can grow your way out of the deficits that are created. again, we've differed on this. i have never found any empirical data to suggest you can grow out of deficits that is as large as the ones we'll accumulate. so in that regard, we've disagreed. but i think there is an element of pragmatism and he may be more effective in selling that to the president than his pred iss-- p saysor because he has a long relati relationship with the president and was on his campaign. >> thank you. the latest on the investigation into three bombs delivered to homes in austin, including the fact that police say these now could be hate crimes. and later looking beyond legislation, a republican megadonor will join us with his plan to prevent mass shootings like what took place a month ago in parkland, florida. ♪
another upset win for democrats in the heart of trump country. nbc news is calling conor lamb the apparent winner in pennsylvania's special congressional election. the race was extremely close. lamb and republican rick saccone were separated by a few hundred votes and the reaction is mixed. the republicans say it is against trump and when you look at the candidates, trump has backed since september just one them has won. and the take on lamb is divided
too. >> if your a republican in a safe seat, you better be ready. >> conor lamb never identified himself as a democrat. he ran against nancy pelosi. >> we know it is a very hard fought election cycle and we're prepared. >> i think the president helped close the race. you saw the public polling it wasn't looking and the president came in and helped close this race. >> now of the last eight major congressional races, democrats have performed on average 12-plus points better than hillary clinton did in those same districts. there are just over 230 days until the mid-term elections. in austin, texas, investigators are searching for the suspect or multiple suspects behind three package bombs delivered to homes there. on monday, two packages exploded at homes in different austin neighborhoods. one killing a 17-year-old boy and injuring a woman. the other injuring a 75-year-old woman. ten days earlier, a package bomb exploded killing a 39-year-old man at his home. now investigators believe the
attacks may be linked because the victories were african-american, police say they are not ruling out the possibility these are hate crimes and a local civic leader said the families of two of the victories knew each other. joining me now is nelson linder from the austin chapter of the naacp. thank you for being with us. >> thank you for the opportunity. >> what do you know about these potential links and whether or not they may have been motivated by racism? >> we know so far in every situation they used the same type of bomb material so that is consistent but also two african-americans injured and one hispanic. so it is very consistent since it began. and so i think we can say that safely. the other thing is that having known that we try to make sure people understand what these people are doing in delivery, these are mail bombs. so the public could not pick them up and communicate about being safe in this type of situation.
>> do you know anything about why police think that -- they may be connected -- how do we know it is not coincidence that they didn't know each other, the victims? >> well, when you got the first victim anthony house who's stepfather knows the second victim, grand father -- that can't be coincidental. there is so much in the right direction. i think the police are following what we see, which is it is obvious these are primarily black people and within brown person and we're following the fakes thax doesn't mean it can't be something else. but from initial standpoint that is what we see and so you focus on that. but also you don't -- you don't close the door. you keep your mind open and try to access as much as possible so based on the data, we think these are connected and as a result we'll acknowledge that going forward. >> where does this leave people? is it better or worse to think it is a hate crime. if you are potentially a victim or live in austin, now you could
feel more targeted? how are people feeling in austin? is this reached a level of panic? >> there is no panic here. we think that, number one, if you look at the incidents, they were targeted with a mail bomb and unfortunately people that open the mail so if you don't open the mail, you have an advantage. that is why the intelligence is so important. now overall, of course the folks are bombing people and killing people, that is zblou -- this i hate crime but terrorism and having an impact but knowing what is going on with the mail bomb, we can better protect ourselves and don't pick up packages and communicate and secure our own communities where we are. that is knowing that. but going forward if they are in tenned for certain -- intended for some peeople you can be preventative in terms of causing less harm and arresting the people who are terrorists in my opinion. >> nelson, thank you very much. stay safe and we are all thinking of you folks in austin.
i'll be there in a couple of days. >> thank you. >> the president of the naacp austin chapter. >> we have breaking news in washington. the house of representatives has just passed something called the stop school violence act. it is the first legislation passed in response to the shooting in parkland, florida, which took place a month ago. i want to go garrett haake live on capitol hill. what is this and how big of a deal is it? >> reporter: it is another step forward in this case by the house to deal with specifically school safety. it provides money to school districts to better train people, to train both the police officers who are in the schools to improve school security, to try to improve reporting systems to focus on school-based violence in particular. it is a step forward in the house. i caution some less jube lense, because like the fix nics background that were put forward in the house and co-sponsors in
the senate, there is not a plan how this moves forward in the senate so you are still a ways off from this becoming law and the other caution is that it doesn't address the guns issue at all. and so some folks have said this doesn't go nearly far enough because it leaves the gun part of the equation out of it almost entire live. but this passed with an overwhelming margin in the republican house. paul ryan and the republicans were selling this very hard this morning, as some people pay say this doesn't go far enough but it is a step. it is something and it does move the ball forward. now there is a companion bill to this in the senate, that is is trying to gain momentum. what is interesting over the next couple of weeks , the senae doesn't have a lot to do before the easter recess but they have to pass the omnibus spending bill which is a fancy way of saying it has everything in it and it has to pass to keep the government funded long-term. it is possible some of the measures could be loaded up into the bill which again is just another complicating factor
before any of these things could get to the president's desk. >> garrett, i just want to mention that the president has landed in st. louis. he's there to have a meeting -- a business round table talking about boeing and trade and tariffs are going to be an issue. that is the president coming out of the plane out of air force one. garrett, most of the attention for a bill on capitol hill has been about fix nics and trying to make that into a stronger bill. is this bill an aside or going to go anywhere? >> it is an aside. it has potential to go somewhere because there is support for it on the senate side. the problem here, ali, is that -- there is two different sets of problems. first, the democrats feel like neither of these bills go far enough. and they are worried if they let this moment pass without a -- aggressing the gun issue more broadly, they won't have a chance to come back at it again. there is a political opportunity here and there is time and there seems to be some will and maybe some cover from the president to do more on guns. so democrats want to try to get
as much as they possibly can on this moment as the gun and safety issues overlap. as a safety issue in general, i think most people would argue that anything that improves safety at schools is probably a good idea and you saw that in the overwhelming 400-plus vote this is bill got in the house side. so i think there is a possibility that this finds a way forward but again there is this packaging problem of how this goes in the senate and whether individual senators decide that it is enough or it is too much or if something else needs to be added to it to get to that sort of goldilocks position where it is just right and get to the senate and to the president. and so the president has signaled that he supported this bill as well. so again another good sign for it maybe potentially becoming law. >> garrett, good to see you. garrett haake on capitol hill. and as students nationwide demand action on gun control, one republican mega-donor has a plan to cut down on mass shootings, a plan that doesn't require any legislation. he'll join us after the break.
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they don't want to go to school fearing their lives. here is a small look into the future of democracy. >> we're here to protest because we know change is coming. and we are the change. and we will not stop. >> today is sort of showing that we care. that we're not just going to let this fade into the background like our politicians are doing, like the world is doing, that happens after every other shooting. >> we're asking for less prayers and fewer words an more action. >> we won't stop fighting until legislators do their job and they work for us and they're not doing what we want them to do. >> the millennials leading this now, this is something we shouldn't have had to lead because it shouldn't get this far to need this protest. this could have been nipped in the bud but it wasn't and this is up to take up the mantle and do because we care. >> i'm going to get out and vote and encourage my friends to vote and this is the time that every young person in america is going to vote and things will change.
>> i am impressed by the kids as they fight for changes to gun laws, senators were holding a hearing on the shooting in parkland and how to improve school safety. one of the biggest questions is why -- when there were warning signs sent to the fbi and nothing was done. the director of the fbi trying to answer that. >> we made mistakes here. no question about that. that said, even had we done everything right, i'm not sure if we could have stopped this act. but it sure would have been nice to try. >> now he did say that it would make sense to extend the three-day waiting period if the fbi's unable to do a full background check on a gun buyer. right now it is up to the gun dealer if they want to complete the sale, if the fbi can't complete the check in those three days as we've discussed before. now amid the national push for new gun-control measures, a well-known conservative mega-donor is looking beyond reforming legislation around gun ownership. foster freeze said he supports the debate on how to change gun
laws but wants to focus on the potential school shooters themselves. so he's offering to match up to $2.5 million in donations sent to the return to civility fund at the national christian foundation before march 24th. that is the day of the rally in washington. he said the donations will go toward building programs that improve school safety and promote a return to civility in our schools. he joins me now via skype. he's in tokyo. thank you for taking time to join my. sometimes i would think that getting off topic and going off the gun issue is a bit of a -- a way out of the conversation. but you're not talking about getting off the gun issue, you are still supportive of better gun laws but your point is -- one of the parents from parkland made the same point today, what are we doing to identify and maybe even support those students who end up becoming the shooters. because in most cases -- almost all cases -- there were warning
signs. >> you're absolutely right. and i think you find the vehicles that are running into pedestrians unsuspectingly in austin, your program talked about bombs, in the united kingdom knifings have gone up 21% and the trick is how do we head off the attitude of the young men doing this. if you look at the history of the mass shooters, almost all are people with no influence in their lives from a fatherly standpoint, no fatherly instincts. i've seen rachel's challenge and students were transformed by not only understanding that they basically have a good life to live but how could they influence others. so rachel's challenge is one of the things i'm willing to put this money behind because it changes the attitude of the isolated young men who do need mentors surrounding them. >> to the point i was having a conversation with arne duncan, the former education secretary
focused on the walks in chicago and in chicago schools they are not worried about people walking in with these assault-style rifles but they've had 3000 gun deaths in a year. but this is a big piece that you are trying to chew off. the concept of enhancing civility in society often feels like it is bigger than all of us which is why we focus on simpler laws. >> well i think you've hit it on the head there again, ali. oprah the other day was on the van jones show and van said i wake up in the morning and turn on my cell phone and i'm so angry, i want to confront and oprah said, well take a different approach. here is what i do. before i even open my eyes, i say thank you. and then let's -- instead of confronting this nastiness, let's transcend it and i think if you -- if you look at the influence that oprah has i could see a huge for our culture to return to civility and it is not
just dealing with school shooters and rachel's challenge has averted seven different shootings the father of rachel scott, the first columbine victim began the program of rachel's challenge. this is the answer. it is the answer and that is why i'm willing to put a few dollars behind it to make it happen. and i hope other people realize if we don't change the attitude of our culture and the people that are behind these shootings, it will just -- they'll take a different weapon. >> foster, i appreciate the time. i know it is the middle of the night in tokyo but we're looking for any ando all ideas to keep our kids safe. thank you for joining us from tokyo. and to the united nationy, nikki haley is talking about russia in reference to the attack in the united states, the poison attack. let's listen in. >> they oppose the use of chemical weapons under any circumstance. now one member stands accused of using chemical weapons on the
sovereign soil of another member. the credibility of this council will not survive if we fail to hold russia accountable. thank you. >> i think the representative -- >> interesting. tough talk on russia. she said she takes no joy this criticizing russia but said we have to hold russia accountable. this is in reference to the chemical attacks that took place in the united kingdom. we'll stay on top of that. president trump's pick for next cia director gina haspel will likely face an uphill confirmation battle. hours ago rand paul said he plans to no on her nomination, telling msnbc why. >> this is a woman that was the poster child on what went wrong with waterboarding and should never be advanced in the cia. >> haspel sent more than 30
years in the cia. she's the deputy director and facing harsh criticism for the time she spent overseeing a secret prison in thailand where waterboarding was used with suspected terrorists. remind viewers exactly what waterboarding is. it could be the biggest point of controversy in her confirmation hearing. it is an enhanced interrogation technique that simulates drowning. it is torture. here is what it looks like. this graphic is provided by quick torture now.org. a person is strapped to a board or in some way their head is hangle -- angled downward and a cloth is placed over their mouth and water pours over the person feeling like their lungs are filled with water. and it has been used for decades but we heard about it when the cia acknowledged that it used the tactics on some terror suspects. according to doo classified cia
cables, officers water boarded one suspect -- this guy -- 83 times in one month athas pele's prib. he told his children, i thought i was drowning and my chest was about to explode. nbc news larn-- learned haspel present at the interrogation that the cia denies. and then in 2009 obama banned this and called it torture. in 2014 the senate intelligence committee released a report about the tactics calling it an ineffective means ever -- means of acquiring information and not an effective means of acquiring intelligence. and joining us now author and former ncis special agent, mark, let me ask you this. people say he got water boarded
83 times and he is the skum of the earth. whose goal in life it is to kill americans. why should we care that he got treated badly and he felt like he was drowning? >> because as officers of the united states government we adhere to the constitution and the united states adheres to the rule of law. so the application of torture tech nikes as a state sponsored policy has been to the detriment of our national security, regardless of who we've done it to. >> let me take back to november 23rd, 2015. campaigning in columbus, ohio, donald trump said this about water bordering. >> would i approve waterboarding? you bet your ass i would approve it. >> when you get these terrorists, you have to take out their families. they -- they care about their lives. don't kid yourself. but they say they don't care. you have to take out their families. >> mark, putting aside the
humanity of it and the morality of it, what is the problem with using torture to get information from suspected terrorists? >> well, there is a number of things but the morality and the illegalality and the ineffective and not just ineffective, it is counter productive. it produces false information and that represents flawed decision-making pros -- process and so we use torture to drive us to war with iraq and false information from alibby in a al qaeda training camp who said there was al qaeda in iraq and later said he just said that so the pain would stop. >> and you said waterboarding -- >> you said it works the same way that rape works an genocide works. if you look to get actionable reliable intelligence, it is ineffective. ali was on the show yesterday and said similar things.
if you are looking for real information as opposed to someone to sing like a bird, torture will not get you there. >> that is absolutely correct. >> you look at a guy like john mccain who was subject to torture, you almost would think he would have revenge and he thinks it it is the wrong -- it is the wrong thing to do. >> operationally it is ineffective and counter productive, but strategically, it is a detriment to a national security. if you look at the al qaeda terrorist network, at the time of the uss coal attack and i was involved in that and the 9/11 aattacks and the trials for military commission, we've seen al qaeda was in the hundreds as far as al qaeda members. there is thousands and thousands of al qaeda members now. so the strategy of applying to the -- torture has been to the detriment of our national security and increased violent extremism. it is enhanced terrorist
recruitment and financing so it is a detriment ato our national -- to our national security. >> gina haspel will say she -- she will not work around u.s. law and u.s. law prevents torture now. is it important to you that she provide an opinion on whether she thought it was the right thing to do when she was allegedly involved in it? >> well we need some transparency here. john mccain -- there is no doubt in my mind he will oppose this, as are other soeshtss a -- senas an member of congress. when president obama took office he looked forward and not backwards and offered impunity and in international law, there is universal jurisdiction applied for torture commitment for international war crimes and these were war crimes. the international criminal court at the hague is looking now at determining whether to investigate the united states for war crimes for our eit excuse to inflict torture
interrogation policies. >> mark fallon, a former ncis special agent and the author of "unjustifiable means, the inside story of the pentagon and the u.s. government conspired to torture." on the left you see what unfolded this morning half a mile from here outside of the capitol but inside of the capitol a bill to strengthen background checks remains at bay. we'll ask one senator tammy bald win when we come back. how do you win at business? stay at laquinta. where we're changing with contemporary make-overs.
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hey, i just want to give you a thanks to my friend ken dilanian. i was just talking to mark fallon about torture. i was talking about the most brutal interrogations of any detainee. i want to clarify that gina haspel was not according to our reporting present at those interrogations. this is information we have from current and former u.s. officials who say she arrived at the base where those interrogations took place after those interrogations had occurred. so, while she is accused of doing a whole bunch of things related to interrogation and the support of it including the allegation that she destroyed some videos, she was not on hand according to our reporting at the interrogation of abu sabeda. wayant to go to cnbc where larry kudlow, the president's new nominee as top economic advisor is speaking with my colleagues over at cnbc. let's listen in. >> congratulations. >> thank you.
>> to you. talk us through the last couple weeks. when did the president first get in touch with you? when did he formally offer you the role and what was your immediate reaction? >> well, the last one is easy. my immediate action was yes, honored to take the job, which was last night. >> in an uber? >> actually it started on 5th avenue because i was at one of our john katz's dinners. john, larry, mark, we have them all the time. so the phone rang and of course the place was packed and one of his militariay agitants said th president is calling. i got in an uber. >> the weather was cold, not the president. >> the president was great. talk about that in a moment. and i had to get uptown to do the john bachelor show like i do, i don't know, 15 some odd years every tuesday night for an hour. and we were talking -- >> who suggested the 10 to 12
hours would be more work than you're accustomed to? >> how unfair. >> 12-hour days all the time. so, tell us about the conversation. >> i used to anchor twice on this network for a long time. i did the 11:00 to noon, come back at 7:00. i'm playing a strong game of step is. >> you continue to be joining us regularly. >> you're not going on these other -- larry, come on. all these other tv -- we have a contract. >> kelly, whatever you want. >> it's up to you. continue to tell us about what the president offered you and what you expect you'll be able to do in this role. >> well, look, he called me sunday afternoon. i was up in connecticut. i had just finished playing tennis. and i thought he was going to call me to bawl me out because i had a problem with some across the board tariffs. but he didn't. he called and started explaining his position, his thinking on the matter which i want to get
to in a minute. it's not quite what people think it is. and then we got into the conversation and we started talking about the nac director job. and that's when i realized that that was what this was really going to be about. and he was wonderful. i mean, listen, i've been around awhile. my head is not turned easily. i've served in the white house, et cetera, et cetera. but just to talk to him for 30, 40 minutes at a clip, three, four days in a row is a wonderful thing. i just want to say that. it's a wonderful thing. he and i have known each other many years, i interviewed him on radio, tv, ways in the campaign helping out, i know him reasonably well. it was a terrific experience. i don't want to sound sophomoric. >> we'll dive into that in a moment. multiple 30, 40-minute conversations you had in the
last week, tell us how the president is at the moment. a lot of people are framing this as a volatile couple of weeks. how is he doing personally? >> sounded great. i will see him tomorrow. i'm going down tonight and we have all kinds of things to do. he sounded great. and, look, the economy is starting to boom. the tax cuts are working. the deregulation is working. we're going to get on to infrastructure. we're getting it on the trail. so, he's completely in command. and as he always does, not only does he explain stuff he's thinking, but he asks questions. this is an old thing between us. and he asked good questions. so, if i try to give him the kudlow -- the kudlow thing, he's going to come back and -- he's a smart man, so, look, i haven't been in the white house as a staffer, you know, so i can't tell you what all goes on there. i didn't hear any of that. >> one of the reasons we were talking to him is you said now
that the tariffs number looks like it could be 60 billion, that would do more to offset the impact of tax cuts. these are -- >> which tariff number is this? >> this is the tariff number lighthizer brought $30 billion wogt of china across things like toys and tech. the president said it wasn't enough. now the reported number is like 60 billion. strategic concern is now these numbers are starting to add up to something that could undermine the tax cuts we know you love so much. what is your message going to be to the president on this in >> well, i'm not -- i'm a little unsure about these numbers. i'm not privy to these numbers. i did talk to bob lighthizer at some length today, he's an old friend of mine. i can't really kwocomment on th. i will say this. china has not played by the rules for a long time. i have talked about that, intellectual property rights, corporate technologies, other barriers, transshipments to get around things.
so, china needs to come up in some trade. i believe that. >> we're looking at live picture of president trump at the boeing plant as well which we'll keep looking at the pictures. we also just had a statement, larry, from the white house from sarah sanders saying kudlow was offered and accepted a position of assistant to the president for economic policy director of the economic council. of course we already knew that, larry, because you confirmed that to us. still official confirmation. congratulations again. >> thank you. it was out -- by the way, i wasn't watching tv this morning. the president called and he said, it's out, because i don't think he was intending to put it owl until tomorrow, friday. i said, oh. he said you're on the air. he said i'm looking at a picture of you. he said, very handsome. so trumpian. >> he's there at the boeing plant now. boeing is down significantly today, 2.5% over the last five days.
it's down 5%. airbus its rival flat. we know he looks at the stock market. do you think he'll be looking at the reaction to boeing's stock price today listening to people there at the plant, and thinking, gosh, maybe tariffs on china is not the right move because they can retaliate and it can hurt american companies like boeing. >> well, we will see. i must say as someone who doesn't like tariffs, i think china -- >> okay. thanks to cnbc for that. that is larry kudlow. he's had a long relationship with snib. as you heard him say he's had a long relationship with president trump. the reason we brought you that interview that way because that is the first we are hearing from larry kudlow who is going to take a remarkably important job with the president. this is the job that gary cohn is leaving. now, remember, it was gary cohn who shepherded those tax cuts through. whether you like the policy or you don't like the policy, the president of the president's chief economic advisor is remarkably important and larry kudlow is the man who is now going to take that position. there are a couple of issues.
one is that larry kudlow does not see eye to eye with the president on trade, and the other issue is that he does believe these tax cuts are working, will not result in the deficits everybody thinks they will and are going to grow the economy by numbers no other economists are forecasting. i'll leave you with that. "deadline white house" with nicolle wallace starts right now. >> hi, everyone. it's 4:00 in new york. mission not quite accomplished. one of the congressional committees investigating donald trump's ties to russia was onto something. the house intel committee which abruptly halted its probe into russian collusion, even though it still had unanswered questions about money laundering collusion and obstruction of justice. the democratic members of the house intel committee releasing a 21-page status report citing unfinished business about major threads of the investigation, including whether president trump sought to obstruche