tv All In With Chris Hayes MSNBC April 4, 2018 5:00pm-6:00pm PDT
>> it took courage for kennedy to do what he did that night. just two months later, he would be gunned down also in a political crime, killed in a country where there's too much violence he and dr. king spent their public lives fighting to end end. that's "hardball" for now tonight, april 4th, 2018. "all in with chris hayes" starts right now. tonight on "all in." >> they know what is coming. and it is devastating. >> new revelations about long-time trump adviser roger stone and possible collusion with wikileaks. plus, the special counsel still investigating president trump. >> we know what we did and what we didn't do. so none of this comes as much of a surprise. >> why the white house shouldn't take a victory lap over reports the president's not a criminal target. then. >> we take this seriously and we're looking into it and let you know when we finish. >> scott pruitt hemorrhaging support as ethics scandals envelope the epa chief.
>> that should not have been done. there will be some account credible. >> a political person. >> you don't know the ho did there. >> then there's ryan zinke. >> a very special guy that i made secretary of the interior. does he know the interior? >> the truth about what's really happening in that department from a scientist who used to work there. >> she's a tough cookie and you've done a great job. >> when "all in" starts right now. >> and good evening from new york. i'm chris hayes. tonight new evidence would could be the missing link between the trump campaign and its associates and russian efforts to interfere in the 2016 election. we know that the president of course, cheered russia's actions out in the open promoting democrats stolen e-mails on the campaign trail and explicitly calling for russia's help. >> russia, if you're listening, i hope you're able to find the 30,000 e-mails that are missing. i think you will probably be
rewarded mightily by our press. >> but the big question at the heart of the russia probe is whether the trump coordinated with russia behind the scenes. on the die tails of when or how to release the e-mails that they had hacked. and all along, it has seemed most likely that if anyone did the coordinating, it would have been roger stone, the president's long time confidante and adviser and julia assange, the founder of wikileaks which released most of the hacked material. we have an e-mail from august 2016 two the months before wikileaks posted the first batch of podesta e-mails. responding to a message from sam nunberg showing hillary clinton with a big polling lead, remember those days. stone wrote enjoy it while you can. i dined with my new pal julian assange last night. there it is. stone implying his new pal would put an end to clinton's lead. that e-mail dated august 4th just days after trump made his public plea to russia into the
cameras. the e-mail was posted online by a reporter for the conservative one america news network after first being reported by "the wall street journal." stone insisting he was just joking. that's not a very funny joke. but on the same day that he sent the e-mail, he happens to have claimed that as sang had the goods on clinton. >> let's remember that he their defense in all of the clinton foundation scandals has been not we didn't do it, has been you have no proof. yes, but you have no proof. well, i think julian assange has that prove and i think he's going to furnish it to the american people. >> huh. where would roger stone have gotten that idea? any that same interview, stone said had he spoke within donald trump only the day before. that was the start of a long series of hints dropped by stone about future wikileaks releases including this a few days later.
>> i actually have communicated with assange. i believe the next tranche of his documents pertain to the clinton foundation. but there's no telling what the october surprise may be. >> stone's infamous tweet about john podesta came just a few days after that. "trust me, it will soon be podesta's time in the barrel." in an interview the following month, stone manages to somehow predict exactly how wikileaks would stagger the poe des tease e-mail releases. >> i expect julian assange and the wikileaks people to drop a payload of new documents on hillary on a weekly basis. fairly soon. >> a few weeks later after stone repeatedly teased an october surprise the organization released the first of many batches on october 7th. shelly who first broke the story of stone's e-mail claiming to have met with jooun julian
assange. and dan rather host of axs tv's the big interview. shelby, i'll start with you. stone says this e-mail is a joke. what's the context for the e-mail. >> the context of the e-mail is really important. it was in response to a poll that he had president trump l e losing the general election. seems to be saying, aha, wait till julian assange comes into the game. he says this was a joke he dined with assange. he gave us a screen shot that the had his first name roger and it appears to be a booking on a flight from l.a. to miami. if he had dined with assange, he would have had to be in london. it's unclear if he was physically in london eating with assange. the next day, he starts praise agsang on twitter calling him a hero. then as you just laid out over the next few months, he predicts all of these things assanging will do including a few days before he releases podesta's e-mails saying the payload is
coming. why this is significant is the fact we know mueller is looking at this. that means he's not just looking at obstruction of justice but focusing on his mandate of investigating coordination between trump associates and russian operatives. >> roger stone is an infamous figure, mr. rather. this is a guy who worked the dark side of politics for decades. >> and proudly so. he's been associated with donald trump for a very long time. i have a feeling, chris that, for many people watching saying what is all this about, all this detail about stone and it may appear to them as complicated as the wiring diagram for some complicated power plant. she touched on it. in essence to understand this, it's mueller is clearly trying to determine whether or whether or not russian intelligence connected to wikileaks, connected to the trump campaign and maybe is it to the president himself. that's the context of this. roger stone who is a very smart fellow.
>> extremely. >> you say well. >> he sat at this table. >> he's a really smart guy. but that shakespeare line comes to mind. oh what, a tangled web we weave when we practice to deceive. is he considers himself a master deceive. >> embraces it. >> he's never met a decipherer of deception of mule's category and sooner or later we will know. >> that is a great point. one of his political heros richard nixon, he famously we have to show this obligatory segment, has a nixon tattoo on his back. that's it right there. he's someone who says his rules are attack, attack, attack it, admit nothing, launch counterattack. >> i thought about this because i watched the documentary again this weekend. he didn't deny he sent this e-mail. he simply said it was a joke. he said it is not what you say. it's what you do. that also raises an interesting point. sam nunberg whether he came on
msnbc multiple times said they have roger's e-mails. which means there was likely evidence of a crime if they had to obtain a search warrant. >> if they want have roger stone's e-mails makes me think about the fact that stone says, there's no evidence to the contrary which strikes me as significant. the certainly. you'll recall that stone refused when his congressional appearance, refused to say anything about the wikileaks thing. if and when he's interviewed by mueller, he can't use that as an excuse. but you know, one of the things here that by any reasonable analysis, this increases the fear of president trump. you have to know that the fear is on the rise. because he sees and hears what we have and he knew it a long time ago and saying he's got to be saying to himself, listen if they're pressing in in on roger stone and they're going to get
him if they haven't already under oath, i've really got to be afraid. >> i keep coming back to this seeing it with michael cohen and the stormy daniels case. donald trump has operated with a lot of people in his circle doing things wpgs parts of his knowledge, maybe none of his knowledge by design that one must wonder if the president himself is now wondering what was done. >> i think that's a really good point. roger has said on nbc he never discussed the hacked e-mails or leaked e-mails with the president himself. you can roll your eyes. >> i'm just saying i would love to taking that with a grain of salt. >> we do know that the president praises the release of the released e-mails and started reading some of them to a cheering crowd. we don't note if he knew about it ahead of time. >> i agree with you, we don't know it, but president trump mentioned wikileaks 116 times during the month of october just before the campaign. that would indicate to any
reasonable person that perhaps he had been talking to stone or did indeed know what he stone was doing. it's not a conclusion. i think it's a reasonable theory based on the evidence. >> don junior started communicating with wikileaks. >> the big thing here is that from the macro perspective, you have the world of the kremlin and the sort of series of associated entities that move further and further out from putin himself. the world of donald trump and a series of associated entities and the place where the two look the closest to touching are julian assange and roger stone at there point. >> they look very close. it's interesting because wikileaks tried to distance itself from roger stone. but after president trump won, they said something to the effect of aren't you happy we can now communicate freely. >> that's interesting. >> the trail is interesting and the timeline is extremely damning. > shelby holliday and dan rather, thank you for being here. the white house took something of a victory lap. the president remains under
investigation as a subject bunt is not currently a criminal target. . >> reaction to learning he is not a subject or that he is not a target of the special counsel investigation although he is a subject? >> i'm not going to comment on the ongoing and the back and forth out of respect for the special counsel. but as we've said many times before, there was no collusion between the president and russia. so nothing has changed. we know what we did and what we didn't do. none of this comes as much of a surprise. >> there's something hilarious watching this white house try to spin the news about the president of the united states under investigation in a massive criminal probe led by some of the nation's most aggressive prrpz there was another key bit of news buried that muellers investigators have indicated to the president's legal team they're reconsidering or considering writing reports on their findings. the post's robert cost at that time explain wlad that might look like. >> they're working on the russia investigation in terms of russian interference and also working on a specific report
they would like to come out with in june or july of this year that has different conclusions about the president's conduct, his behavior while in office, looking at key decisions like the firing of former fbi director james comey. and he believes that he has to figure out the president's intent and that's the missing piece. >> attorney he willout from the above the law blog and nick akerman now an msnbc legal analyst. you're both very smart men, smart lawyers and opinionated. i feel like have you opinions about these stories. i'll start with you. >> i don't care right now if trump is a subject or a target or a participle. it doesn't matter right now. if he testifies in front of mueller and lies, his status will change by the time he comes back from the bathroom. that's not the real story. the real story is as you pointed out the fact that mueller has basically told us how this is going to end.
it's going to end with him putting a big honking report on paul ryan's desk. >> right. >> at which point paul ryan will have a press conference and tell the whole world that he's il lit ra rat and can't read the report. like that's how it ends now. >> right. and you think that end game is significant. >> i don't even think that's necessarily the end game. i don't think this is a story at all to be honest with you. >> why not? >> first of all, subject, target is completely meaningless. they are very defined terms. unfortunately a lot of people took that to mean target means somebody you're aiming at, you think you're going to indict. that is not how the department of justice defines a target. it's basically somebody that's about to be indicted. a subject is anybody who is in the purview of the investigation. what's really significant is if someone is a witness as opposed to a subject or a target. a witness is somebody who just happens to be from their standpoint at the wrong place at the right time and from the
government's standpoint at the right time at the right place. >> these distinctions are ethical courtesies by the department of justice towards trump's criminal attorneys. they're trying to say if you're a target, that means we're coming after your boy, ret ready. >> it's almost a an question could the president ever be a target because unclear you can indict him. could you ever even say to the president's attorney yes, the sitting president of the united states is a target. >> it depends what the position you take on whether he can be indicted. i would take the position he certainly can be indicted. >> i know you take that position. if you don't. >> then he can't be a target. >> so the whole story is meaningless. i mean, i do this every day. i did it as a prosecutor. people would ask me, is he a target, a subject or a witness? i do the same thing when i represent my innocent clients. but the fact of the matter is, all you can do is take that answer with a grain of salt, try and make a reasonable judgment based on it.
this happens every day in america. this is not a front page story for the "washington post." >> even there question of oh, can he be indicted? can he not be indicted. i don't think people understand, constitutionally speaking, the president can serve out the rest of his term from jail. >> right. >> there are two ways to remove a sitting president. 25th amendment impeachment. unless we're talking abouting what -- remember, ryan and mcconnell at this point are acting like the crab and goil to you trump's malfoy. unless they decide they want to do something about this, it's all intrigue. >> that's why the report -- the idea behind that part of the report is this kind of like okay, this is going to be put on your table. >> but even that's meaningless because it just says in the article that they may issue a report. we've known that since day one they may issue a report. >> there's got to be some kind of report. they have to issue a report. >> we issued a report in the
watergate prosecution at the very end about this thick. we issued a report. >> anti- climactclimactic readi he gets in the helicopter. >> you're right. the fact of the matter is ep could still be indicted. they could make that decision. coserve his term in prison. look at mayor curly in boston. >> he's not going to serve his term in prison. >> why not? >> get it together. that's not happening. > what about paul ryan makes you think any different. >> what has he shown you to this point. >> i think robert mueller is small c conservative on this. i think that the standing loc memo on whether the president can be indicted, it's a four-page memo stands as precedent aspartames to doj practices and procedures, that he has signed on to essentially guiding himself by those practices and procedures. it would be a radical departure for him to bring an indictment against the sitting president and i don't think he's going to do that.
>> i think that's a reasonable position. but it doesn't mean, it, depends what the evidence is. if they come up with evidence that he is actually in the hand of putin, that he is a puppet for the russian government, i guarantee you there's going to be an indictment. >> there's also just he's going to lie you. he's going to sit in front of mueller. when he lies, that's going to change this whole game. the only thing he can do is find a way to not sit in front of mueller or somehow find a way to actually tell the truth. >> i thought part of my reading of sort of the context of the article was that trump's lawyers tempting to lay a predicate that going into this interview, you didn't have him. the idea being like they're trying to advertise to the world you don't have him yet. you don't have him yet. it's only the interview. as if that's a secondary. >> that doesn't work. >> i know it doesn't work. >> because the prosecutor can always change his mind. things constantly change. you get new evidence from here
from, there. it's not just from the interview. >> elie, come back anytime. next, is president trump done within scott pruitt? a sign his avalanche of scandals may have finally caught up with him in two minutes. for leisure. so i go national, where i can choose any available upgrade in the aisle - without starting any conversations- -or paying any upcharges. what can i say? control suits me. go national. go like a pro.
uh huh, sure. still yes! xfinity delivers gig speed to more homes than anyone. now you can get it, too. welcome to the party. confidence in the epa administrator at this point. >> the president think he's done a good job, particularly on the deregulation front. but again, we take this seriously and we're looking into it and we'll let you know when we finish. >> sarah sanders declining to say that president trump's confidence in the head of the environmental protection agency scott pruitt as he is mired in an avalanche of scandals from his lavish traveling on the public dime to allegations he bypassed the white house to give big raises to his favorite aids including one who had overseen his personal housing search. his defense on that today on trump tv probably did not help his case.
>> if you're committed to the trump agenda, why did you go around the white house and give raises to twos staffers. >> i did not. i found out about it yesterday and changed it. ppo process should have been respected. i issued a statement yesterday walking back those raises. that should not have been done. there will be accountability on that. >> a career person or political person. >> you don't know? you run the agency. you don't know who did this? >> i found out about this yesterday and corrected the action. we are in the process of finding out how it took place and correcting it. >> both staffers who got large raises are friends of yours i believe from oklahoma. >> they are staffers in the agency. >> they're friends of yours. >> they serve a very important pump. >> you didn't know they got the pay raises. >> not till yesterday. >> with me now run of the reporters on the pruitt beat, julia halperin. you've got a news piece today that connects to this. it seems to me the core of the issue is he never really moved
to d.c. and he's been going back and forth a lot and his living arrangements are what? >> now he has his third apartment since moving to washington since being nominated and confirmed as ahead of the epa. what we were writing about today is the fact that there was a gap after he moved out of eight condo owned by a lobbyist where he was paying $50 a night for every night that he stayed there. there was basically a one-month gap before he moved into his next apartment. and at that point, he went on extensive travel first to multiple states, five states over the course of a little over a week. then-some back and forth with largelily in oklahoma, went to texas and went back. as a result he essentially was traveling nonstop and spending time at home before returning to washington this fall where he then moved and move once more to where he lives now. >> the epa and pruitt have been
trying to defend the $50 a night condo setup. which again, to me from just a common sense perspective seems tough to do. here's the exchange had he with ed henry. i want you to take a look. >> so you only paid for the nights you were there. >> that's exactly right. >> but that's kind of a sweetheart deal. >> no, it's not. >> your house in oklahoma, you pay a mortgage on that. when you don't sleep there, you still pay the mortgage, right. >> not -- yes, this is a tremendous difference. i wasn't using the facility ed when i wasn't there. you could go on craigslist today. it's been done the last week. craigslist today shows rentals for one bedroom of less than $1,000. on capitol hill. >> i never heard of an apartment like that. i've lived here over 25 years. >> well -- >> do you think that scans? >> well, certainly when we looked at comparable prices on say airbnb and elsewhere, we did not find a similar apartment for that level of rent. so it's also worth noting one of
the things that administrator pruitt has been emphasizing in his interviews over the last 24 hours is the idea this was approved by ethics officials. it's worth noting they only asked the ethics office to render a judgment late last week after reports of this surfaced. so this was not something that was cleared in advance and went through the regular process. >> there's also this question, we had a question today which is if he's going back and forth to oklahoma which he is, is that part of the ig's investigation. >> absolutely. that's one of the innings under scrutiny by epa's ig. his frequent trips to tulsa, to his home where he usually had one meeting and would stay the weekend, things like that. >> if he has one meeting, he's back in tulsa. he lives there. he's got a big mortgage on that home. we asked the epa is he taking federal per diem whether he he's in tulsa. he's travel bug he's also home. maybe he shouldn't take the per diem. when the administrator is on
official travel, he receives per deep as all government employees do. when he's on personal time, he does not receive per diem. >> right. so this is certainly something worthy of looking into. in other words, for those weekends he is not receiving per diem. one of the questions is, is he receiving the per diem on friday when he's staying home. that is something we've sought to examine and will continue to examine. that is a relevant question. the tripses are definitely related. he's doing meetings that are related to epa business but typically, many of his predecessors and other similar cabinet positions did not seek either reimbursement for their flights or certainly for staying in their homes. >> right. just to be clear, he's staying his home is in tulsa. he has a house in tulsa and doing official business in tulsa. if you're going home and staying in your house and taking per diem, a lot of people would think i don't know about it.
julia eil per rin, thanks for being with me. >> interior secretary zinke has been racking up his own scandals. what he's been up to next. ♪ ♪ i can do more to lower my a1c. because my body can still make its own insulin. and i take trulicity once a week to activate my body to release it, like it's supposed to. trulicity is not insulin. it comes in a once-weekly, truly easy-to-use pen. and it works 24/7. trulicity is an injection to improve blood sugar in adults with type 2 diabetes when used with diet and exercise. don't use it as the first medicine to treat diabetes, or if you have type 1 diabetes or diabetic ketoacidosis. don't take trulicity if you or your family have medullary thyroid cancer, you're allergic to trulicity, or have multiple endocrine neoplasia syndrome type 2. stop trulicity and call your doctor right away if you have symptoms of a serious allergic reaction,
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to keep our community safe. before you do any project big or small, pg&e will come out and mark your gas and electric lines so you don't hit them when you dig. call 811 before you dig, and make sure that you and your neighbors are safe. scott pruitt gets all the attention with his shenanigans at the epa don't take your eye off interior secretary ryan zinke. he's naming susan combs to oversee federal policy on wildlife in parks even though she is an ardent opponent of the endangered speesz act who once referred to proposed endangered species protections as incoming scud missiles.
with me now jill clement who quit the interior department last year after he was moved from his job as director of the office of policy analysis and assigned instead to an unrelated job in the accounting office. plfg clement, what was it like to work in interior under ryan zinke key? >> when the new administration came in, we knew we would be under the gun a little bit, issues of science. that's my background. it was a very intimidating environment for us. a lot of people were looking over their shoulders wondering how would they address climate change and other issues. morale ras already, people were on pins and needles from the start. >> the interior secretary has been really adamant no one's making they changes to scientific documents about climate change. i want to play you some of his testimony at a hearing and see if that jibes with your experience. here's what he had to say. >> there was no incident, no
incident at all that i know of that we have ever changed a comma on a document itself. i don't know of any document we've changed and i challenge you any member to find a document that we've actually changed on a report. >> does that square with your experience? into no, i mean that squares with my experience that he secretary zinke isn'ten fully aware of what's happening always in the department. certainly there has been as we've seen been some explicit censorship of climate change related matters in the department. >> we had a report that came from a reveal which is an investigative unit that showed exactly that. have you experience fundamental firsthand. >> you know, i never experienced censorship while i was there. by the time they reassigned me to get me out of the way, i was no longer privy to some of these conversations. i have seen since and heard from colleagues there at doi, this is a big concern. it's got morale on edge.
>> you were reassigned from what to what? >> i was the director of the office of policy analysis. in that position, i was the top climate policy official there. i was reainsud to the office that collects and disburses royalty income from oil and gas and mining interests. and their original intention was to have me do that in tulsa, oklahoma. >> you were the climate guy. right? >> yeah. >> you're the top career climate guy. >> that's right. >> then they pulled you out of that job and had you tabulate royalties from oil and gas leases? >> yeah, i was reassigned to the office of natural resources revenue. >> why did they do that? into it was clear to me their intention was to get me to quit. while you can move senior executives around even involuntarily, it is unlawful to do that in retaliation or to get them to quit. it was my view they were doing this in retaliation for my public views on the impacts of climate change. for that reason, i filed au
whistleblower complaint last summer. >> there's related news. there's been a lot of reorganization among senior career folks like yourself. this headline stuck out to me. zinke's interior diplomat disproportionately reassigned native american workers. a third were native american. how should we interpret that? >> this was when i was reassigned, as well. you know it, took -- this was such a fishy batch of reassignments. every administration when they come in they reassign a few senior executives. this was dozens in one night. and it was so fishy that eight senators wrote to the agency asking for an investigation. i filed my chick-fil-a blower complaint. there seemed to be more, an unofficial tally of the people reassigned. it seemed like there might have been discrimination. they wouldn't release the list of people till i sued the agency and we finally obtained the list. sure enough, there's pretty clear evidence of
discrimination, also a disproportionate number of women were reassigned that night, as well. >> there were 30 plus of you. >> all in one thursday night about 8:00. >> these are career people. >> these are all career staff. >> your working theory these are senior career staff working on issues that this political leadership doesn't like and wants to chase them out? >> there's certainly evidence that makes it appear as though retaliation and discrimination were taking place with this reassignment. >> joel clement, i appreciate it. >> thank you, chris. >> i want to tell you about a special show we're airing this friday calling revolution, apple changing the world. kara swisher and i sat down with apple ceo tim cook for the interview. it made a lot of news. the entire hour is just as compel. so i encourage you to join us right here friday night in this hour. we'll be right back with thing 1, thing 2 next. mom? dad? hi! i had a very minor fender bender tonight
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thing 1 tonight, there's a thing that happens on twitter called getting ratioeds when your take is so bad, that the likes and the retweets are greatly outnumbered by the amount of replies usually because the replies are full of people informing you how bad your take was. well, wisconsin's republican governor scott walker got brutally ratioed last night. if you support our bold efforts to the reform government and
help families i need your help right now. look at the numbers, 167 people liked that message, 90 people retweeted but over a thousand 300 people replied savagely ratioing it. that pitiful ratio is the least of his worries. what happened in wisconsin to prompt the tweet last night is thing 2 in 60 seconds. little things can be a big deal. that's why there's otezla. otezla is not an injection or a cream. it's a pill that treats psoriasis differently. with otezla, 75% clearer skin is achievable after just 4 months, ... with reduced redness, thickness, and scaliness of plaques. and the otezla prescribing information has no requirement for routine lab monitoring. don't use if you're allergic to otezla. otezla may cause severe diarrhea, nausea, or vomiting. tell your doctor if these occur. otezla is associated with an increased risk of depression. tell your doctor if you have a history of depression or suicidal thoughts, or if these feelings develop. some people taking otezla reported weight loss.
your doctor should monitor your weight and may stop treatment. other side effects include upper respiratory tract infection and headache. tell your doctor about all the medicines you take and if you're pregnant or planning to be. ♪ otezla. show more of you. back in january, democrats in wisconsin flipped a state senate seat butting off a nine-point win in a republican district trump carried by 17. that night, republican governor scott walker tweeted it should be a wake-up call for republicans in wisconsin. but scott walker had a solution at least a temporary one. he would just stop holding elections until november. including two republican seats vacated in december. walker planned to keep those seats open for almost a year. he was sued because well, state law explicitly calls for prompt special elections to fills vacancies and during the lawsuit
he tried to change state law. ultimately a circuit judge ordered walker to call special elections which will now take place june 12th. if you needed more evidence about the political climate walk ser so scared of, look at what happened in wisconsin last night. liberal judge rebecca dallett won a ten-year term on the supreme court, not an incumbent won a spot in the high court and won by a 12-point margin. walker up for re-election statewide this year once again took a turn to twitter. tonight's results show us we're at risk of a #blue wave in wisconsin. >> tonight we proved when the people rise up and stand together, we can beat the special interests. my breath.
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and israeli prime minister benjamin netanyahu had a phone callen according to the white house readout they put out afterwards, apparently the two did not talk about what was probably the most important thing for them to talk about. and that's the fact that just a few days ago, israeli troops shot more than 750 palestinians killing at least 15. yes, that is the correct number. more than 750 palestinians shot. at least 15 dead. this happened at a large protest along the gaza border on friday where as many as 30,000 people gathered to begin what was planned as a six-week sit-in protesting israeli's block caved
gaza and protesting people he's so-called return to israel a right the israel government says doesn't exexist and if enforced would spell the end of the israeli state. defenders of the israeli military's actions will point out the action was ruled by hamas which rules gaza and uses violence and terror in its campaign against israel. there were some protesters who threw rocks and molotov cocktails and rolled burning tires at the border fence. all of which is true but in no way justifies what israeli soldiers appear to have done which is perch on a hill and pick off protesters with sniper fire. much of it record ford all to see like for instance this video which shows live shots being fired at a teenager as he runs through an empty area to retrieve a fire. or the shooting of this young man as he prayed near border
fence. as far as we can tell from the video evidence, troops in sniper positions rained down bullets on unarmed people, again and again and again. and not only did the president of the united states react by saying nothing, not only have the vast majority of members of congress, democrat and republican been entirely silent about this frankly unconscionable use of force, the u.s. blocked a u.n. security council statement calling for an investigation of what happened. now, from day one, the trumpstration has sent the message to the u.s.'s middle east allies particularly israel and the saudis that they can do whatever they want. there will be no raps on the knuckles as there might have been in days of yore, no more tsk, tsking. and that video of teenagers being shot in the an open field, that's what it looks like when they do. the check they sent isn't enough to replace your totaled new car. the guy says they didn't make the mistake. you made the mistake.
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>> could you lower those signs, please? i have some very sad news for all of you, and i think sad news for all of our fellow citizens and people who love peace all over the world. and that is that martin luther king was shot and was killed tonight. >> 50 years ago today, almost to the hour, martin luther king jr. was murdered. robert fchbl robert f. kennedy on the campaign trail broke the news. martin luther king was killed at the hotel, right behind my first
guest. and van newkirked joins me. and let me start on "the whitewashing of king's assassination", which is a powerful peace that you edited and helped put together. what do you mean by the whitewashing of king's assassination? >> what i mean there is when we consider the circumstances under which king was assassinated, we like to think that it was a long gunman. that's true. but we don't consider the factors of how american public opinion was totally turned against king. where he was in his own life, in his movement. we sort of have a narrative about the civil rights movement that king won, that he did overcome, that he was victorious, and in some senses, he was, but how do we reconcile that with the fact that he was killed while he was down for a protest? while he was initiating the next
phase of his campaign with the memphis sanitation workers, how do we reconcile that? and so what i want to get into in that piece is how we built a false recollection of the circumstances of that day, the circumstances of 1968 and how in the 15 years after that, when reagan makes king's birthday a holiday, we basically have already forgotten what king was fighting for, what he wanted to do, and that's had powerful consequences on our public policy since. >> barbar you're down there tod what is important to capture from that last part of dr. king's life? >> well, as i stood they place he fell, i'm reminded that the
last thing we can do is we can't have commemoration services and not have a reconsecration to the movement. since king's death, we saw a diminishing of the moral narrative. deconstruction of voting right laws and a defunding of the war on poverty. now what we have today is a voting rights act that has been gutted, and for 1745 days today the congress has refused to reinstate it. that has allowed state legislatures to passenge pass gerrymandering, and they pass laws that hurt the poor. and mostly white. we have 440 million poor and working poor people, 37 million people without health care, can't we unleaded water unleaded
gas. 63 cents of every dollar going to militarism. and it's heresy. we must have a national call for moral revival. >> you are someone who has both lived and documented this period, the sort of the civil rights movement of the 1960s until now. and i think there's one narrative in which things go along and they flatten out, and maybe they shoot up. but i think people have been reckoning more recently with backlash, of backwards movement. how do you see it right now? >> i don't think that's anything new. and by the i what, thank you for having me with these two wonderful guests. i've interviewed reverend barber in the past.
i think about the man i met in 1961 when i was a student, and he was a very humble man, but at the same time, he was very prescient. at the time he was in memphis, he talked about the dark skies. and the confusion in the country. and that was all negative. b but, at the same time, and i think this is the case with reverend barber. he said through that darkness you can see the stars at a certain point. so there was always hope, even though many of the things that reverend barber has just cited are still the case. but there was trouble back then. but the question is how do you keep on keepin' on, as he did, even in the face of backlash and, and disappointment at the progress that he felt needed to be made. >> you know, van, there's this
polling of gallup. it's an institution that's been polling people for so long that we have great apple to apple comparison. public sentiment to king, 32% positive, 63% negative. they did not measure public opinion in '67 and '68. i wonder how you think of king in the final years. in many ways, when you talk about the narrative of king, one, he was in a very tough point of his career at that moment. >> yes, so if you look at what his friends, his confidantes were saying to him, he was having a mental health crisis, he was searching for his role, the role of civil rights in liberation. he was trying to figure out exactly what the thing was that he needed to push, to rail against actually change the material conditions of black
people and poor people in the country. and you see him in those last couple years orient himself to a fierce economic critique. i want a shout out to reverend barber. he has this critique of the very capitalist system of america, the foundations of our society. he's actually taken those foundations, taken stock of them and saying they need to be replaced. so you see a much more radical figure than is allowed in our national consciousness, when we think about king and people quote the dream speech, they're not grappling of the last few years of king really trying to figure out how to make a non-violent, equal country, and one that serves the purpose of justice throughout the world. >> dr. barber, king, king offers that critique in the last years of his life. '68 is also the year that
kennedy's assassinated and in which richard nixon wins the presidential election. do you see a connection between that event and where the nation's politics and donald trump are today? >> well, very much so. in fact, dr. king had identified those three evils. militarism, racism and poverty. at the same time, the poor people's campaign was rising. the poor people's campaign was partly assassinated because dr. king was assassinated, but the southern strategy continued to rise. it had a 50-year plan to separate poor and working class whites from poor and working class blacks in order to isolate the politics and create the likes of nixon, reagan, bush, and now trump. we're in the 50th year. but on the flip side of that, i also see the possibility of transformation. i just left kentucky and western virginia, eastern kentucky where people in the mountains, coal miners are joining this poor people's campaign. in florida, in alabama where a
woman who lost her child because alabama refused to expand medicaid is hooking up with white poor women from kentucky and west virginia. we need right now in this home, and this is what we're going to try to do, a season of non-violent, moral fusion, direct action, not one day, a season of it. we need a season of massive voter mobilization among the most impacted and poor people in this country, and a season of power-building amongst poor people to first change the narrative. one of the most disturbing things is that we've had 26 election debate and not one hour on voting rights. we cannot survive a democracy with that kind of narrative. >> you know i'm a journalist. you ask the question, if dr. king had lived and pursued that, would the black people and the white people who are in the same economic situation