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tv   AM Joy  MSNBC  April 21, 2018 7:00am-9:00am PDT

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these kids, and these guys, him, ah. oh hello. that lady, these houses! yes, yes and yes. and don't forget about them. uh huh, sure. still yes! xfinity delivers gig speed to more homes than anyone. now you can get it, too. welcome to the party. that is a wrap for this hour of msnbc live. see you again tomorrow morning. now it's time for a.m. joy with my good friend joy reid. >> lawrence o'brien, chairman of the democratic national committee today filed suit for $1 million against the committee for the reelection of the president, and against five men arrested early saturday who were charged with breaking into the parties' national headquarters at the watergate in washington. >> good morning and welcome to a.m. joy.
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in 1972 the dnc sued the committee for the reelection of the president, aka creep, the fund raising arm of richard nixon's reelection campaign at the center of the watergate scandal. the campaign settled with the democrats for $750,000 on the very day nixon left office. fast forward to today, and the democrats are suing over another break-in, alleging the trump campaign, wikileaks and russia conspired to disrupt the 2016 election by hacking dnc's e-mails. trump seems to think she's named wendy. the lawsuit comes as a group of house republicans have formed a veritable committee to protect the president by attacking fired fbi director james comey. the republican chairs of several key committees forced the doj to release memos written by comey about his interactions with trump. the memos were promptly leaked
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to the press. well, this attempt to discredit comey didn't quite work out the way the republicans thought. the memos are consistent with comey's testimony to the senate and with his book, adding only a few more unflattering details to his portrait of trump. >> he told you he'd had a personal conversation with president putin about hookers? >> yes. >> did you believe him or did you think he was speaking hyperbollically. >> didn't seem to be speaking that way. >> instead of eating crow the committee to protect the president claimed vindication, saying the memos show former director comey never felt obstructed or threatened. trump wants us to think the memos undermine mueller's investigation. generate a special counsel, question mark, council, rather than counsel, twitter did notice that. therefore, it was established on
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legal act, question mark, really, does everybody know what that means, question mark. joining me now nick ackerman, see seema iyer. thank you for being here. i'm going to come to you first on this, nick, analogies to watergate keep piling up for donald trump. now you have the committee to protect the president, the group of lawmakers in the house doing whatever it takes to protect donald trump. there's an article that talks about donald trump actually pressuring the attorney general to fire two fbi agents named stock and page who were tweeting things he didn't like, tweeting negative things about him, and to feed information to these allies in the house. here's a quote, the president also pressed his attorney general fbi director to work more aggressively to uncover derogatory information within the fbi files and turn over to congressional republicans
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working to discredit the two fbi officials according to the same sources in the same article trump did this knowing that page could actually be a witness against him. have we staken the watergate analogies too far, or are we on the right track? >> you're on the right track. instead of bringing a bunch of guys up from miami to break into the water gate headquarters, the democratic head quarters, they did it with the russians who did it electronically this time making it a lot more difficult to uncover. it's not like they could put tape on the door and a police officer would walk in and find a bunch of burglars. this made it very hard too detect in the first instance. but it also made it much more insidious in the sense that they were able to take a lot more, and you could see what they did with it. and it was all done for the purpose of getting donald trump elected. >> yeah. >> so absolutely, this is like just go ahead 45 years, and it's just now met up with the
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technology of what we're looking at here. >> high tech watergate. >> even with respect to the other pieces of it, using facebook and this microtargeting of voters in specific districts. before they were trying to figure out how to go around to voters or keep the vote suppressed. they did that in new hampshire when nixon was running and he had opposition with mccloskey. they had roger stone and donate money in the name of the young socialists to make republicans turn against mccloskey. now they can do it with electronics with 60 million facebook users to target hillary clinton voters to keep them from voting. >> roger stone appears again. jill, there's the other couple watergate parallels, of course, the potential lawsuit here, or the lawsuit that's actually been filed by the democrats against the nixon campaign. at that time what did that yield
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and did it interfere at all with the official investigation of nixon? >> it didn't. i loved hearing the audio of that because it did bring back a lot of memories. but it didn't interfere. we worked very successfully, both with congress and weren't involved in any way in the civil suit. civil suits present some problems now for the trump administration and for cohen because it can lead to discovery depositions, the things they're trying very much to avoid by dropping in the case of cohen, he's dropped at least one lawsuit. but the stormy daniels case isn't going away, and that could lead to discovery which could be a problem. i'd say the more difficult challenge was congress demanding to get the investigative documents, the comey memos, which had absolutely no purpose if they had really thought it through. i don't know what they thought they were going to get.
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there is a theory that they thought they might be able to show that some of them were classified and had been leaked and that he lied about classified material, which doesn't seem to be the case. it seems to have totally boomer anged on them, to totally have backfired and it would have been an important thing for the department of justice to stand up to congress and say we have a protocol of not giving out ongoing investigative documents for a reason. we don't want to interfere with the investigation that's going on by revealing this. other witnesses will now be able to conform their testimony because they now know, for example, what was said about the reince priebus conversation, there are things that could change in the investigation. so it's very dangerous to give out an ongoing investigation's documents. it was the wrong thing to do. the department has a policy for a reason.
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>> when you're talking about the reince priebus conversation, for those not up on the full comey memo, that is a conversation in which comey apparently asked -- is asked by reince, is it the private conversation, i replied it was, he said he wanted to ask me a question. decided if it was appropriate. do you have a fisa order on michael flynn, a question that might not have been appropriate to ask. i want to come back to you, paul butler, to this lawsuit, i can envision a lawsuit in which the democratic party says we would like to depose julian assange. we would like to depose everyone who was in that trump tower meeting. that's jared kushner, paul manafort, that's donald trump jr. is that possible that lawsuit could yield that kind of discovery? >> absolutely. there's a different standard, first of all, in criminal cases than civil cases. there's a lower standard of proof. so civil cases are take longer, especially when there's an ongoing criminal investigation.
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but at some point you get discovery, which means all of the people who have relevant information are forced do come in and testify under oath what they know. now interestingly president trump is not named in this lawsuit, but all of the other relevant players are, and until we know that the watergate suit was decided the same day that the stuff went down in watergate. so, again, it takes a long time. we'll eventually learn more from mueller sooner than we'll learn from this civil lawsuit. >> let's go back to mueller, for a second, seema, with you. this constant threat of a saturday night massacre, donald trump will attempt to fire rod rosenstein, to everybody who plops the floors, until he gets to somebody that will end the mueller investigation. jeff sessions has threatened to quit, or at least he's said he
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might have to resign if rosenstein were to be fired. what do you make of that? >> i think jeff sessions does not want to quit, but i think it's reasonable because every friday night this is -- so maybe not a saturday night massacre, but definitely a friday night massacre. this is what happens every friday night. but at this point i think it's too early to tell. but listen, i think the important thing here is the mueller investigation is still not at obstruction of justice or occlusion. this democratic committee filing a lawsuit seems like it's being rushed number one, and number two, i'm not a political expert, you know that, but the democrats, shouldn't they be spending the money on the midterm elections instead of this frivolous lawsuit? >> trump is no fan of sessions anyway, wouldn't trump say, okay, i'll fire rosenstein, make my day, sessions, resign. >> i know you're still sticking to your no collusion. >> let me tell you one thing,
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savannah guthrie interviewed james comey this week on the "today" show, and she asked him are we at collusion and obstruction of justice? he even pointed we're still not able -- >> we don't know what mueller has found. >> we can't articulate the intent. >> what do you think he's investigating then? >> investigating, yes, he's investigating it. but if james comey isn't at obstruction, how can we be? >> it's not part of the investigation. >> first of all, james comey set up the facts. he hasn't come to conclusions. the republicans have got it all wrong, totally backwards. it's not what james comey thought in his head. it's what donald trump thought in his head, what his intent was. >> right. >> did he have a corrupt intent to obstruct and drop the proceedings? that's precisely what he admitted to lester holt. >> the comey memo comes out the and we've got all these memos. contemporaneous notes he took
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after talking to donald trump, with donald trump asking him all these questions, also saying, can you please see your way to letting michael flynn go? andrew mccabe, he told three people afterwards what happened in those one on one meetings with trump. he told andrew mccabe who has been fired had his pension stripped, he told baker and he told james rybicki. one more piece of evidence, a timeline of events leading to jim comey being fired, january 6, comey briefs trump on the dossier. trump is inaugurated. six days later, sally yates tells them michael flynn could be compromised. gates is fired. flynn resigns. trump calls comey and lift the cloud over him by ending the investigation. comey doesn't do it. he gets fired. trump tells the russians he fired comey to ease the pressure
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on himself. paul. >> first of all, whoever ends up impeaching trump, that's their opening statement. ultimately if there's a criminal case, that's the opening statement. that's obstruction of justice. now, again, i've always said, unless there's evidence of collusion, that is conspiracy to defraud the united states, i don't think mueller brings the case of obstruction, but joy you just laid out the compelling evidence that's corroborated. i have to say i think collusion is coming. when comey had that conversation with priebus, comey told priebus that the allegations in the dossier had been substantiated. the dossier is about collusion. >> we love having you guys on to debate. this is our favorite debate. nick ackerman, seema iyer. and coming up. trump's got himself a new lawyer. >> what difference at this point does it make? what difference does it make?
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you know what's not awesome? gig-speed internet. when only certain people can get it. let's fix that. let's give this guy gig- really? and these kids, and these guys, him, ah. oh hello. that lady, these houses! yes, yes and yes. and don't forget about them. uh huh, sure. still yes! xfinity delivers gig speed to more homes than anyone. now you can get it, too. welcome to the party.
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you know, you're really beautiful. and a woman that looks like that has to have her own special set. >> oh, thank you. maybe you could show me what you think of this set. >> i like that. >> this may be the best of all. oh, you dirty boy, oh, oh.
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donald, i thought you were a gentleman. >> okay, if that is a real video, in case you're seeing it for the first time. it's from a campy spoof that then new york mayor rudy giuliani did with his good friend donald trump back in the year 2000. it's real. rudy and donald reunited on the campaign trail in 2016 when he became trump's shoutiest surrogate. >> this is a man with a big heart who loves people, all people, from the top to the bottom, from the middle to the side. what i did for new york donald trump will do for america. we must commit ourselves to unconditional victory against them. >> well, now rudy's about to star in a new role as trump's new lawyer, seriously. the former mayor and federal
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prosecutor brings his own baggage, along with him giuliani was vice chair of the trump transition team, which the special counsel is investigating. on thursday jim comey told rachel maddow that as fbi director he ordered an investigation into the sort of leaks that may have led giuliani to make this cryptic comment two days before the fbi reopened the clinton e-mail investigation. >> then i think he's got a surprise or two that you're going to hear about in the next few days. i mean, i'm talking about some pretty big surprises. >> i heard you say that this morning. what do you mean? >> you'll see. >> stay tuned. >> well, let's bring in my panel. barbara rez, and thank you were being here. barbara, you worked for the trump organization f quite a long time, several periods of time. >> yes. >> can you talk about the ways in which donald trump as a businessman interacted with the
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leadership of the city of new york with the mayor? >> with the mayor, you know, there was several mayors. he had a problem with mayor koch over subsidies the trump tower was trying to get. they were warring. but in general, it was about raising money for the campaigns and, you know, schmoozing and that kind of thing. >> he even allegedly lobbied the city to make sure that he didn't have to add sprinklers above the 50th floor of trump tower. did he have a sense he could muscle city officials around orsome mo or -- >> he had so much influence, don't forget, his father had a lot of influence, and some of his employees were there because they had influence. as far as that sprinkler thing is concerned, i don't think he led the charge on that. i think that that was something that other developers, too,
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wanted. >> let's talk about rudy giuliani, david k. johnston, what was the relationship there between the two of them, the video is pretty priceless, back in 2000, what was that relationship like? >> let's go back to when rudy giuliani was prosecuting mobsters, one of the items specified that sent -- to prison for life was donald's purchase of concrete for trump plaza apartments on 61st street. it goes back to there. when he was mayor of new york, donald, like mayor rudy giuliani wanted nothing to do with black and -- they've now been shown sometime ago to be actually innocent. yet donald clings to that and rudy has backed him up within the past week. >> yeah. it's an interesting
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investigation. there's also, barbara, this reporting the great wayne barrett reported extensively about rudy giuliani's ties to the new york fbi, one piece of it, hours after jim comey sent his letter about renewing the probe on the clinton e-mails and after that was released, giuliani went on a radio show and attributed the director's surprise action to the pressure of a group of fbi agents who don't look at it politically. quote, the other rumor that i get, this is giuliani speaks that there's a kind of revolution going on inside the fbi about the original conclusion not to charge clinton being completely unjustified and a slap in the face to the fbi's integrity. i know that from former agents, even from a few active agents. somebody who's operating in new york city, there is a sense that rudy giuliani had this special relationship with law enforcement and with the fbi. did you get the sense that as mayor, i don't know, what do you make of this whole thing, of him being so tied to donald trump,
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and seeming to know so much about what was going to happen to hillary clinton? >> i think that giuliani has ties from the old days to the prosecutors and to the fbi. the relationship between him and donald -- president trump is interesting. you know, it sort of died down after the election. but clearly giuliani is his apologist. he loves him. >> yeah. >> and what he is now doing, david, is he told the "new york post" that -- this is what he said about him believing he can actually end the mueller probe. he says i don't know yet what's outstanding, but i do think -- i don't think it's going to take more than a week or two to get a resolution. they're almost there. him seeming to pretend he has foreknowledge it's going to end. here's my question. how is he going to be the lawyer when he seems to have had some knowledge of what was going on behind the scenes? here is rudy giuliani on a raid show saying russia has hillary
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clinton's missing e-mails. the day after donald trump said the same thing. >> the russians have those e-mails. they've had them for some time. >> how does he do both? how is he potentially somebody mueller might want to talk to and also the lawyer that ends it? >> he can't be donald's lawyer in court if he's also a witness. that doesn't mean he can't advise donald. and rudy's not a practicing lawyer at this point. he's a rainmaker for greenberg, the law firm he's now at. his former law firm, giuliani, and i think it was burrman, they did work for cambridge analytica. that would also make him a likely witness that mueller may want to talk to at some point. as long as he's not representing trump in court, he's advising him, that's much less of a problem. but there's no way he's going to be in court representing him in these matters. and by the way, your other guest is quite right about the relationship with the fbi. the association of former fbi agents used to meet at the trump
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hotels. and the key person they dealt with was patty mcgahn, donald's fixer, the uncle of don mcgahn, the current white house counsel. >> and among giuliani's other clients, apparently, jared kushner's bank. >> a bank that's paid over $6 hurricane million in fines for laundering russian money and the only bank that directly loans to donald. so there are lots of things here. by the way, how can this case be settled in a week or two? only if donald trump were to decide to come in and confess. and after all he said this week that he's confident michael cohen won't flip on him. if you haven't done anything wrong, what could he flip on you for? >> it does beg the question. thank you, david johnston. up next, michael cohen remains
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reporter maggie haberman. trump tweeted, quote, "the new york times" and a third rate reporter maggie haberman, who i don't speak to and have nothing to do with are going out of their way to destroy michael cohen and his relationship with me in the hope he will flip. they use nonexistent sources and a drunk drugged up loser who hates michael, a fine person with a wonderful family. now trump has called plenty of people losers over the years, ask cher and john mccain, rosie o'donnell. this time, who could trump be referring to? roger stone, the nixon worshipping provocateur, political adviser, told "the new york times" donald goes out of his way to treat cohen like garbage. or someone else, we're speculating, but inquiring minds
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mr. president, could michael cohen flip? are you worried he's not loyal? >> thank you, everybody. i hope you saw the crowds in key west. >> it's a question donald trump doesn't want to answer. but sources close to trump, michael cohen and the campaign all told nbc news that cohen will definitely flip on trump if it means saving his own hide.
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barbara res, paul butler and jill winebanks are back with me. trump is saying somebody is a drugged out loser. roger stone says in the "new york times" trump goes out of his way to treat michael cohen like garbage, a quote from there. for years trump treated mr. cohen poorly with gratuitous insults, dismissive statements and at least twice threats of being fired according to interviews with a half dozen people familiar with their relationship. does that sound like the way donald trump treated people in his organization? >> absolutely. his own employees. but not all of them, not all of us, i should say. but if he sensed a weakness, he would just hone in on it and he would jump on you. and if you took it, that was, to him, the license to do whatever he wanted. he was really insulting, terribly -- in front of other people and mean, and he did threaten to fire people, he
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never would fire them because they were doing their jobs. >> there's a statement, donald trump is first avenue, his loyalty only goes one way. we were talking about how he demands absolute loyalty, loyalty meaning willing to go to prison for donald trump? >> i don't think that anyone ever thought in terms of that kind of loyalty, although one of his security people said once that he would kill for donald, which, you know, i don't think anyone would do. i don't think anyone will go to prison for donald either. that's never been tested. >> yeah, absolutely. let's talk about the other person, nick, he could be talking about. we don't know who he's talking about. roger stone said some things about sam noneberg. ironically, says sam nunberg, michael cohen holds the leverage over trump. he's a former aide, nunberg said mr. cohen should maximize that leverage. he added, whenever anyone complains to me about trump
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screwing them over, my response is they have nothing compared to michael. >> don't be a snitch movement, he might as well have added #snitchesgetstitches. ask george papadopoulos, ask michael flynn, carter page. special counsel mueller throws the book at you. you may not come in thinking you're going to cooperate. when you leave that interview, you've pled guilty and have told -- pledged to mueller that you're going to tell him every dirty thing donald trump ever did. >> jill winebanks, you have donald trump to paul butler's point doing his no snitching campaign on twitter, tweeting most people will flip if the government lets them out of trouble, even if it means lying or making up stories. sorry, i don't see michael doing that, despite the horrible witch hunt and the dishonest media. i wonder if tweeting that at, you know, sort of telegraphing
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that to michael cohen, i know you're not a snitch, is that interfering with a witness? >> donald trump has done so many things to me that seem like interference with witnesses, the pardon o joe arpaio, scooter lib by, are clearly intended to influence witnesses and to say i've got your back, i'll pardon you, don't worry about this, don't cooperate, lie, you can be in contempt of court, i'll still pardon you. so yes, this is one more aspect of it. but i think that cohen has to think about, he also has state crimes that he could be facing. and would he rather serve his time in a federal prison or in a state prison? he's going to obviously opt for the federal prison system instead of the state prison system. so we have to just see whether he will or won't. he said i would take a bullet for the president, which is something gordon liddy side during watergate, and gordon liddy lived up to it.
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cohen seems much more like a thug and a bully who frequently bullies are just really weak people and will flip. so we'll have to see. >> and, you know, there's another feature of a person like donald trump who can be part bully, part concierge. one of the things we've heard about him is donald trump will flatter and flatter in addition to bullying. here is a clip from donald trump back on january 11th, 2017 talking about michael cohen when at the time they thought they had the mic drop on the steele dossier because they thought the steele dossier was wrong about michael cohen being in prague. we've since learned, yeah, he was in prague. this is donald trump back when they thought that part of the dossier was wrong. >> that michael cohen of the trump administration was in prague. it turned out to be a different michael cohen. it's a disgrace what took place. it's a disgrace. i think they ought to apologize to start with michael cohen. >> and by the way, michael cohen
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has now dropped his lawsuit against buzz feed and fusion gps over that very interesting steele dossier. first come to you on this barbara, that if threatening or making sort of very obvious hints that you shouldn't snitch, don't work, is donald trump the kind of person that might go to flattery, buttering him up, offering a pardon? >> i don't think in this instant he would think flattery would work. flattery is for a whole other thing. this is serious stuff. so dropping -- pardoning lib by and that kind of thing, that is what he's trying to do, he's trying to say you'll get pardoned. >> can donald trump pardon his way out of this mess? >> he can, but then he opens himself up to more evidence of obstruction of justice. and second, there's actually an open constitutional question about whether the president can use his very expansive pardon power to pardon someone who's a witness in an investigation against him. i think that that actually would go up to the supreme court. i'm not sure how they would come out. at the end of the day pardon
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does not give donald trump an out. >> let's go to another issue, jill. michael cohen is now in a position where we're going to talk more about this next hour, where he needs to file a fifth amendment statement, needs to take the fifth in order to try to slow down the stormy daniels lawsuit against him. if he winds up taking the fifth against self-incrimination, does that in any way inoculate him against being pulled before the grand jury and having to talk? >> it's an interesting question and it's actually a third point to what paul just said. in addition, if he is pardoned, he has no fifth amendment privilege left. so he can't use that as a reason not to testify. so there's a third reason why a pardon would be ineffective in protecting donald trump. it would actually open him up to further testimony. >> yeah. >> and that would be a very bad thing for him. >> robert, in your -- you know, having dealt with donald trump, is there anyone in his life, in his circle, jared kushner, maybe
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don jr. who would go to prison for him that you experienced? >> no. >> not even his kids? >> i don't think so, no. as a matter of fact, i think that he may throw them under the bus at some point in time to protect himself. you know, like you said, loyalty is a one-way street. >> yeah. and that being the case, then where does donald trump go from here? it seems that he is being circled and circled and circled by an ever larger pool of sharks in an ever shallower pond. i'm wondering where he goes from here. >> i'm thinking of jill's work on water gather, and agnew. at some point there was so much evidence against him there was a deal made, you leave office, and then we'll leave you alone. we won't bring criminal charges against you. so, you know, people have thought about, is trump going to run for reelection? mueller's aware that that election's coming up. i think everything's on the table. >> jill, before we go, i have to -- i originally asked you what your pin is today. >> today's pin is a world spinning out of control, and a
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news cycle that won't stop. >> wow, normally you always have something for us with the fabulous pins. we have something for you now. look at this picture. we go back in time. that is a young gorgeous jill wine-banks, her coat game is super strong during the nixon investigation. you were always bringing the cute. i love it. it's great to see you and you look fabulous again today. barbara res, paul butler, jill wine-banks. coming up the two men arrested at starbucks for sitting while black, they speak out.
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what do you say to some people that rules are rules, you violated the policy, the police asked you repeatedly to leave and you didn't, how do you respond to people who say that? >> what i say is i understand that. rules are rules. but what's right is right and what's wrong is wrong. that's any situation. whether it's recent or anything. >> after video of the arrest of those two men in a philadelphia starbucks went viral, starbucks this week announced plans to shut down nearly all of its u.s. locations, up to 8,000 stores on may 29th to put employees
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through anti-biased training. the viral video shows nelson and robinson being arrested after the store manager called police on them because they had not yet made a purchase and were just hanging out there. you know, like people do in starbucks every day. . joining me now to discuss. heather mcgee who's helping advise starbucks. and jason johnson, politics editor at the root. thank you all, friends. i want to start by playing the 911 call. i don't know if everybody has heard it yet. make sure you get to hear it. this is the starbucks manager calling police on those two men. >> hi, i have two gentleman in my cafe that are refusing to make a purchase or leave. >> police will be there as soon as possible. >> so jason, i have to go to you first, you wrote a compelling piece on this idea that we tend to talk about police and police
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violence against black bodies, against black people. but you make the point, jamill smith, we don't talk about people calling 911 on black people for nothing. >> joy, you listen to that tape, and i mentioned in my pete in the root, it's like the cops are their racism valets. these black people are making me uncomfortable. do something about it. the fact she can engage in that kind of behavior consistently, these are the gentleman who end up having to deal with the consequences is another part of the discussion we need to have. that could be called malicious prosecution. you could potentially charge and we don't know if it's the actual person, the daily mail says it's holly hilton, we don't know for sure. there should be consequences for people who call for noncrime discriminatory purposes. the police are an extension of their own bigotry. >> what i heard the most on
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social media when this happened is fire the person who called 911. starbucks took a long time to then finally tell us this employee was no longer with starbucks. do you think just as a public relations matter, lingering ove employee was a mistake? >> absolutely. starbucks has created a culture of community around coffee where people all over the world use and abuse their restrooms and real estate over a $10 latte. so the two minutes that she took to call was incredibly aggressive. >> yeah. >> so starbucks absolutely should have come forward, straightaway, and said this is not our culture, this is we don't advocate -- we are not complicity with this behavior. it took them a bit too long to do that. they are being on the right side at this point by introducing the training and introducing the new, you know, ways in which they educate their employees, but that employee was aggressive and it was rooted in her racial
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bias. >> let's listen to these two gentlemen scribing being arrested, this is more of their interview with robin roberts this week on thursday. take a listen. >> as soon as they approached us they just said, we have to leave. there was no question of, you know, was there a problem here between you guys and the manager? you know, what happened? >> when you were arrested, did they tell you what you were being arrested for? >> no, not at the time. we wasn't read any lights. nothing. just double lock handcuffs behind our back and escorted out and put into a squad car. >> heather, you were one of the people advising them on what they're going to say during this day of training. the question i think that everyone has on their minds is how is it that a person who is a trained manager at a restaurant like starbucks or a place that is known for people hanging out, sipping on a cup of coffee for hours, writing a novel, i have seen people come in to change their baby in the bathroom not buy anything and leave. >> right. >> okay. they don't -- that this person didn't even communicate with
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these two men. >> i think there are four levels of issues here and i'm frankly glad in some ways that we are able to have this conversation. the first level is just what dr. johnson did so well in his piece which is about white fear, the police as an extension of that, as an enforcement of that. that is an american problem, not a starbucks problem. >> right. >> the second level is also -- and i think we haven't talked about this enough, what does the white person who doesn't have a stake in denying racism sees this and thinks it's unfair, whether it's the bystanders in the store on the ceo of the company, what do they do? what is actually the responsibility of white people to use their privilege to combat bias. so that's a great conversation to have. and then the last two are about starbucks itself. starbucks needs to do more than the training, starbucks needs to do ash and eric holder and brine stevenson and i who will all been asked to sort of provide guidance and feedback in in moment to the company, we've all
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been -- we've all said it's more than a training, it's about your practices, your policies, your procedures, it's about institutional bias. then finally the training and i think there are a lot of questions about this. we were asked to sort of step in and make sure that what are they do -- they could have just gone to a corporate diversity trainer and we said, do you know what, we will answer this moment as complicated as it is because this is a teachable moment for the country. for other corporations who are watching as well as for nearly 180,000 employees. is it just about diversity or is it about the structural racism that exists in our society? just frankly too many people have a stake in denying that racism exists. for a company to say racism exists and we're going to spend some time, this is just the beginning, it needs to be ongoing training teaching you how to identify it in yourselves and slow your roll before you make an action that could change someone's life out of that bias, i think that's an important step. >> i think the most absurd statement we have heard out of the woman who called 911 was
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that she didn't expect them to get arrested. starbucks has -- this is their policy officially, this is the statement we got from starbucks about people being in their stores about purchasing anything. it says with 28,000 stores globally different regions circumstances and cultural norms necessitate different guidelines for stores. all of our philadelphia area company-owned stores have signage which states that bathrooms and the lobby areas are for paying customers only. that wasn't true in florida. i'm just telling you right now. so this is indication, jason, that this was not just a philadelphia starbucks problem. here is another black man, a whole separate person videotaping starbucks refusal to let him use the restroom and not following the policy i just read to the letter. >> right. >> have you purchased anything in here, sir? >> no, but i was just about to go. >> you were just about to purchase something. >> yes. >> before you made a purchase i let you use the restroom, right? >> i just typed -- i asked for the code. >> you asked for the code and they just gave it to you, right. >> yeah. >> before you made a purchase.
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>> yeah. >> this man right here says he hasn't made a purchase, he is in line to make a purchase and you guys -- you guys had gave him the code, right? isn't that what you did? >> and so that gentleman's name is brandon ward, sean king tweeted out his story. you know, jason, part of what power is is the ability not only to make the rules, but to bend them for who you want to bend them for, right? and in this case the bendimanags bending them for a white person. >> it's about arbitrary enforcement. there's two things about this, one has to do with our general white supremacy and white nationalism in america and the other has to do with the specifics of starbucks and how they're behaving. the reason i don't speed is not because someone trained me and because i go to driver's ed once a year, it's because i don't want to get a ticket. that's how you change people's behavior. if you want to stop people you don't have to do a massive training. you say we have a zero tolerance policy about racial discrimination, here is a facebook page, if you have a complaint about a starbucks put
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it here and we fire that lady. but here is the problem and we see this in america, see this with policing all the time, bad cops cost cities 6, $7 million to settle with families and they keep hiring those same bad cops. starbucks is going to lose millions of dollars by shutting down their stores for half a day's training to tell people how to treat people reasonably when you should have just fired the lady from the beginning. >> can they fix this? they will lose millions of dollars if people say we are going to go to just black-owned shops. >> they can fix it if we see they are being proactive in i think so chaing the culture. we know this happens every day and racism has been rooted in customer service for decades but they need to move forward and come forward and show that this is not our culture, not who we are, not what we represent. whether it is the soul act of the employee or not she has been a liability to starbucks and now they have to fix it. >> i wish we had more time.
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you can listen to more or hear more of what marvette has to say. all three of you guys, thank you very much. coming up at the top of the hour, the case donald trump and michael cohen can't get rid of. only invisalign® clear aligners are made with smarttrack® material to precisely move your teeth to your best smile. see how invisalign® treatment can shape your smile up to 50% faster today at invisalign.com ♪
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it's clear to me that michael cohen and the president do not want to publicly state what i have been stating for some time and which i think is obvious to everyone and is obvious to the court and that is
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that it is michael cohen's intention to take the fifth amendment against self-incrimination when asked questions about this agreement, the negotiation and the cover up and that fact alone should be very disturbing to the american people. >> welcome back to "a.m. joy." okay. see if you can follow this. michael cohen who is under federal investigation after the fbi raided his office, his home and his hotels would very much like to delay a lawsuit filed against him by stormy daniels and that of course is the adult film actress who cohen paid $130,000 just before the election to keep quiet about her affair with donald trump. now, cohen's efficient to delay that case hit a snag on friday when the judge told cohen's lawyers he must file a statement in writing asserting his fifth amendment right against self-incrimination would be jeopardized if the case is not delayed. wait. okay. does that mean that michael
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cohen needs to plead the fifth? joining me now is stormy daniels' attorney michael avenatti. michael, if you could just explain that for me in layperson's terms. i'm a bit confused as to why -- you had predicted that michael cohen would take the fifth so it sounds like your prediction is coming true, but why does he need to plead the fifth according to the judge? >> joy, thanks for having me this morning. good morning. >> good morning. >> the judge has effectively ordered michael cohen if he wants to attempt to stay the case to file a declaration stating that he believes his fifth amendment rights are implicated and explaining why. why michael cohen is under the belief that, in fact, if the case goes forward, our case, why it may implicate his fifth amendment rights. that's what he's asking him to do. he is a he not asking him to plead the fifth quite yet, but he wants more information about the overlap between the criminal investigation and the facts of our case because as it stands now and as the judge told
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michael cohen and donald trump's lawyers, that motion has gaping holes in it as it relates to their effort to delay or stay our case. >> so let's go through because there's so many things piled on michael cohen right now that i feel like it's confusing to a lot of people that are listening to it. we now know from the "washington post" that your client, stephanie clifford, aka stormy daniels' previous lawyer, the lawyer who esht negotiated the nda that michael cohen says he took a home equity loan to pay her $130,000 is now cooperating with the federal investigation of cohen. he has been asked to provide certain limited digital information for the probe in the southern district of new york and he has done so and will continue to cooperate. what does that mean? >> first of all, joy, and i've got a lot of inside knowledge about what's been transpiring in that regard, i can't i can't get into a lot of the details, but sufficed to say that cooperation was not optional. it wasn't voluntary cooperation.
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so any suggestion otherwise i think is false. there is a lot of information that's been provided to federal authorities in connection with this investigation and i think that there is a mountain of evidence developing in connection with this case that is going to have far reaching effects in the coming weeks and months. sufficed to say that and my predictions thus far have been spot on as you noted. this is a very, very serious matter. i mean, we have the president's right hand attorney who knows where probably all or nearly all of the bodies have been buried over the last 10 to 20 years relating to various business dealings, hush agreements and the like. i mean, he is not cross-hairs, no question he is going to be charged eventually with some very, very serious crimes and i think there is no question that in an effort to save himself and his family and a lot of heartache, he is going to turn on the president. >> and so in your case, because
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i want to talk about how your case intersects and if your case inter aekts a lot with the government's case against michael cohen. we now know that karen mcdougal who also had an nda but this one was about "the national enquirer" not to talk to donald trump she's won, which is that she's out of that nda. does that impact your case and the attempt by stormy daniels to get out of her nda with michael cohen. >> ms. mcdougal's case had nothing to do with our case. >> back to your case versus the cohen criminal case. is there information that could come forward in the case that you are bringing against michael cohen that could wind up implicating him in crimes that relate to the case against him that the federal government is prosecuting? >> i think that's possible and that's one of the issues as it relates to this motion for stay. they want to delay our case, ideally they would delay our case forever because they don't want to give me an opportunity to seek what's called discovery, which is -- includes depositions, sworn testimony
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under oath where people are forced to answer questions about what transpired and of course we have a pending motion to take a deposition of michael cohen and a deposition of the president of the united states and i think the more facts we learn and with each passing day the likelihood of that motion being granted goes up. i think that the concern, joy, is on the other side is that if i get an opportunity to cross-examine michael cohen and mr. trump about what transpired with this agreement, with the $130,000 payment, what the president knew and when he knew it, despite his claims otherwise, that very serious consequences may result. if i were them i would be panicked because very serious consequences will result when i get a chance to cross-examine both michael cohen and donald trump. >> i think all of america is waiting for that particular cross-examination. a couple other issues i want to bring up with you. you and your client have now released a sketch of the man that ms. clifford says
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threatened her. there is the sketch right there, she talked about it on the view. donald trump has responded to that and he tweeted about it, he retweeted somebody who he then added a sketch years later about a nonexistent man, a total con job. playing the fake news media for tools but they know t what's your response to that? >> well, it's entirely irresponsible and it's also stupid. i mean, it's basically now given rise to a potential additional claim for defamation which i believe that we will file, we may file it in the los angeles matter, we may institute a new case or begin a new case in connection with it. i mean, it's irresponsible. it's absolutely baseless. he called my client a liar to the american people and i'm outraged by it. we're going to hold his feet to the fire in connection with it. >> all right. if you could stay with us, michael, i want to bring in our daniel, danny savalos and katie fang. i will come to the table, danny, for your thoughts on this. these two cases taking place
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simultaneously, the judge essentially saying you need to explain why taking the fifth is the only way i guess to delay your other case. >> the argument here and it's a sound one, the argument before the court is that cohen is saying, hey, i'm going to assert my fifth amendment privilege or there doesn't even need to be an indictment for me to assert my fifth amendment privilege. mr. avenatti has put forward a very strong argument against that, citing the proper molinaro factors, but the point is saying i may be under indictment in the futu future, therefore, i should be -- we should put this off because i don't want to expose myself in a deposition. >> right. >> but it raises the question when will avenatti ever get to depose him because, michael, if you depose him now you have the issue of he is going to take the fifth amendment. if you wait until he is indicted he will definitely not testify because of the fifth amendment. so it seems to me that your team is under -- is at a race to depose at this point because if he ultimately is indicted, then
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the window closes for ever getting discovery out of him. >> michael? >> well, i mean, i think that's a good point. we could be delayed for a significant period of time as a result of this stay, you know, frankly reading the tea leafs and you never know what's going to happen in a case like this, but we were very confident coming out of the hearing, i think the judge who is an exceptional judge, one of the finest in the country really understood the issues, i think that he agrees with a number of our arguments and, you know, i do not think there is going to be a stay. i think the judge is going to fashion some protections for michael cohen as it relates to his fifth amendment rights and the judge is basically going to give us an opportunity to depose him and say that if michael cohen wants to assert his fifth amendment right that's fine, he is entitled to do that, but there's consequences for that and that's no different than litigants day in and day out across the united states. >> michael, i agree with you but one thing, every day that passes is potentially a closer day to
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cohen being i'm dieted and once that happens the analysis changes pretty significantly. >> let me get katie -- go on, michael. >> i agree with that but there's also a number of cases and we cited in our briefing that holds that even in the face of an indictment it doesn't necessarily follow that a stay is ordered, but i agree that it gets a lot closer to that result. >> katie, i want to bring you in here. just so people get the scope of what michael cohen is facing, not only is he facing the prospect of having to face michael avenatti on the civil suit to get out of this agreement -- at this point i don't know why he doesn't just drop it, but anyway he's facing potential wire fraud, bank fraud, campaign finance violations and he is also facing the history here. michael flynn who was donald trump's national security adviser has already pleaded guilty, paul manafort indicted, rick gates pleaded guilty and cooperating, george papadopoulos pleaded guilty. can you just sort of give the lay viewers out there a sense of how much jeopardy this guy is in
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and what is the likelihood that because of that he winds up giving everything he's got on trump. >> you don't have enough time to be able to do that. we could be here for days if not years to do that. two crucial things that i wanted to bring up is the fact that people need to remember michael cohen is not only looking at the stormy daniels lawsuit in california, the federal investigation in the southern district of new york, but he also has the mueller investigation. i mean, this is not just i'm only fighting one front. what's happening is especially vis-a-vis whether or not he has to invoke his fifth amendment right and whether he will do so to protect himself, his family, his children and ultimately donald trump is the following, you know, cohen's lawyers on friday argued that they don't have any evidence pause it all got seized. however, we do know that the lawyer and the federal investigation in new york and the lawyers, computes me, for michael cohen are going to get a full copy of what was seized. so they will have that information back, number one and number two, if you have a special master that will ultimately make a determination
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as to whether or not there were attorney/client privileged documents or materials in that medical case in new york then that is going to buy mr. avenatti his time in his stormy daniels lawsuit to be able to get a ruling from judge owe tear that's favorable that may force michael cohen and donald trump to have to testify in a deposition. i understand there may be this race to the finish line but perhaps that finish line may be pushed further back courtesy of the federal judge in new york when it comes to determining whether or not there will be a federal special master who will be appointed to be able to look at those documents. >> why doesn't michael cohen just settle the stormy daniels case? just settle, let her out of the nda. wouldn't that be the easiest way out of that portion of his problem? >> because, remember, if it was just michael cohen maybe he would consider that, but it's not. we know that he is operating as a puppet for donald trump. donald trump is a named party in the stormy daniels lawsuit, michael cohen cannot just summarily decide on his own whether or not he is going to do
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that. we know he is still in contact with donald trump and that is what is weighing upon his decision to voluntarily dismiss any cause of action that he has brought against stormy daniels in california. >> joy, let me just say this, okay, that michael cohen can't just unilaterally decide to settle the case. i mean, we would have to consent to that. we are never going to settle this case until all of the facts and documents are known to the american people, period. >> very quickly before we go, i'm sorry, we're running out of time, i have to ask michael avenatti this question. you said donald trump you don't think he will finish his term. very quickly why do you say that? >> well, because i think the amount of heat and the evidence that is going to come to light in the coming months, joy, is going to make it absolutely impossible for him to serve out the balance of his term without a doubt and i think resignation is going to be his only option. that's my prediction. >> wow. all right. we will have to bring this panel back. michael avenatti, danny, katie, thank you. guys, have a great rest of the
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uh huh, sure. still yes! xfinity delivers gig speed to more homes than anyone. now you can get it, too. welcome to the party. as long as a handful of rich and powerful people control that government, they're going to make it work for themselves. what i want to see is i want to see the people take back that government and i want to see the
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people make that government work for them. each day is a very long time. they don't want us to wait until 2020 to figure out and solve some of the problems they are experiencing, they want that to happen now and people are in a position of leadership if they are really leaders i think have to be focused on what we need to do right now. >> if you're hoping to win the democratic nomination for president there are a few things you have to do, write an autobiographical book, appear on the sunday shows to get your name id out there and maybe zero in on a signature issue or two. and seek an audience with the reverend al sharpton. while 2020 may seem like a long way off prospective democratic nominees are already getting the sharpton primary in gear. several likely prospects have been spotted at the national action network convention this week in new york city. reverend al sat down with former vice president joe biden. >> if donald trump gets by the mueller investigation joe biden
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against donald trump is really about the soul of america. >> i would just say we are fundamentally different. >> and joining me now is the reverend al sharpton founder and president of the national network. i want to play a clip from your joe biden network which is where you got to the point of it whether he is going to run and what would make them are un. >> they have now said it's voter fraud, they have said that foreigners were voting, they've said that -- >> it's a lie. >> -- all of that -- >> it's a flat lie. the assertion the president made from the beginning is a flat lie. every study, every program, every -- every commission looked at it and said simply not true. number one. that's part of the big lie. >> okay. that wasn't the clip. let's play the clip of joe biden on whether he is going to run. >> what would make joe biden really consider running in 2020
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for president? >> i'm really hoping that some other folks step up. i think we have some really good people. rev, i know barack always asks me that question and he said what's going to make the decision? i have to be able to look in the mirror and if i walk away know i'm not walking away because i'm afraid or worried about losing or that i just don't want to take on the responsibility. i've got to walk away knowing that it is -- there's somebody who can do it and can win because we've got to win. we've got to win in 2020. >> did you get the sense that joe biden thinks there's someone other than him that can win? >> i think that he has not clearly seen who that is yet and i think that troubles him. i think when he thinks about how a lot of what he and president obama achieved from the affordable care act across the board is being very much targeted to be dismantled, i
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think he feels personally as well as his whole public life is on the line in terms of a lot of things he did and he wants to make sure we can win. i think if he does not become convinced someone can do it, he may try to convince his family to let him do it. i have no way of knowing where that will end up, but that's the sense i got. >> there is a long history of people who wind up in the white house speaking at the national action network conference, president obama did when he was senator obama. this year you have a lot of people that a lot of folks are focused on. camilla, kirsten gillibrand. that's play camilkamala harris' interview with you. >> the offices that truly make a difference every day include these congressional offices, include these senate offices and right now we've got a lot of people up in 2018 in november just 200 days from now and we've got to make sure that we do the right thing with those elections. >> kamala harris probably has
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the most obama-like hype around her but she isn't that well known and other than her really great questioning on the dais as a senator do you sense a fire in the belly or x factor that could make her a 2020 prospect? >> i sensed yesterday a real parks. kamala harris spoke yesterday, cory booker, elizabeth warren, bernie sanders, governor cuomo all have come one because it's not a sharpton primary, it's narn nl action network's convention, it ends today. they have to have the black vote. >> that's it. >> we are one of the organizations as is the naacp and urban league, but we convene first because we convene in april because we try to do it in a month dr. king was killed because we are a king-based group and they can't win without a black vote. i felt a real passion from kamala harris about really fighting for issues like criminal justice, as well as the
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economy and other things. and we made it clear she was a prosecutor, we may not agree on everything. >> right. >> but i think she really wanted that audience who is from around the country, activists, to understand that she will give access. i remember when we started this in 2000, we got the first televised debated democratic primaries in harlem at the apollo and then i ran in '04 then we started in '07, everybody from hillary to obama was there. obama was not as well known as he became. >> right. >> and he won in terms of national action network forums of the different speakers and look where he went. i'm not saying it was because he came to us, but he really did. i think it is empowering in our community when our national organizations can say to people, don't take us for granted, come in front of us, explain to us where you are, where we agree, where we disagree on our issues. >> yeah. >> particularly now, joy,
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because under trump he has marginalized our issues. trump has not tweeted about starbucks, trump has not tweeted about stefan clark an unarmed black man killed in ekt soo. if it was left up to them we would not even be in the discussion. yesterday helped bring us into the discussion and i think that you can't solve problems as long as you have them ignored. >> i would be remiss if i didn't ask you about rudy guiliani, somebody who you have known for a very long time in addition to knowing donald trump for a long time. what do you make of his entrance into this fray with donald trump's legal team? >> i think it's cover. i think that when rudy guiliani came in and said he can try to tie this up in two weeks, he can then come back two weeks later and say these people are being inflexible, these people are unreasonable and rosenstein should be fired. here is a guy who was an official in the justice department who headed the u.s. attorney's office that just raided michael cohen. so he gives trump the cover to
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go after rosenstein as somebody because he could say, well, i'm listening to guiliani who served in that role. i think it's cover and it gives them a way to try to deal with this. i do not think any of them feel that rudy guiliani can settle this in two weeks. why would you hire rudy guiliani and two other lawyers if you thought it was going to be over in two weeks? nobody hires three lawyers if you thought that it was getting ready to be brought to a close. >> yeah. i have to go back just a moment to the democratic party because there is this constant debate within at least the elite circles or maybe the chat circles about whether or not democrats really understand that they need to deal with issues of race and not just pivot to try to win back white working class voters. one of the reasons that people do come to the national action network as you say every -- you know, ahead of these races is that they have to at least go before the black community and explain how they relate to these issues. do you think that deep down the democratic party really understands that? >> i don't and i think that's
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why it's important we confront the candidates early and often, especially in a midterm election, local candidates, we are coming out with an agenda after the sessions today and we are all working together. this afternoon patrice colors from black lives matter and i have an intergenerational conversation with our youth leader mary pat hector. we are trying to find ways, we have different tactics, disagreements that we work together because we don't want to see people pivot and say, all right, we're not going to deal with your issues because we're going to the white community at the expense of you. yes, we need white working class people to understand that we are not adverse with their interests, there have been common, but we have distinct issues based on race and you can't sacrifice us for that. the try angulation strategy that the democrats used in '92 will not be tolerated in 2020, let me be real clear. >> actually tomorrow who do you
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have on tomorrow? do you have on -- >> i have -- i show tomorrow the interviews that i did with each of the candidates on "politics nation" in the morning you can see the in-depth interview because i went after them on specifics and i wanted them to tell us why we can trust that they will do this so i have bernie sanders, kamala harris, elizabeth warren, gillibrand, i have them all on in the morning to play -- because as they spoke i brought them in and sat down with them like i did joe biden. >> before i let you go i have to ask you this question, whether or not you feel like -- i mean, when you were fighting with rudy guiliani it was a civil rights organization fighting a pretty hostile administration i think it's fair to say. what advice would you give to national, you know, young civil rights emerging civil rights leaders fighting a hostile administration in washington. >> you have to be unrelenting, you have to be persistent. you can't have one or two rallies and think they are going to back up. these people are going to dig in and fight with all they have and
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you have to make alliances with everyone you can and go in for a long haul. we all have different lanes and you need everybody in their lane. there is no one way. i think that a lot of them sometimes become too purist and if it's not their way then there's something wrong with it. work your lane but also don't try and make a quick turn and jam somebody else's lane because we are all headed the same place. >> absolutely. never more important time for these candidates to come and talk to the african-american community, talk to the civil rights organization, national action network doing it. thank you very much. >> thank you, joy. >> again, do not miss tomorrow at 8:00 a.m. eastern on msnbc "politics nation" where you can see -- look at that -- those are four of the people probably all running. coming up we are moments away from the funeral of former first lady barbara bush and we will take a look at her life and legacy after the break.
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you've got two choices in life, you can like what you do or you can dislike what you do. i've chosen to like what i do and i think i'm the luckiest woman in the world. >> just moments away from now barbara bush will be laid to rest at st. martin's episcopal church in houston, texas. over 1,000 attendees including bush, clinton and obama are expected to pay tribute to the life and legacy of the former first lady. joining me is dana millbank and
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andrea mitchell. andrea, i listed that group of former presidents who will be at the service, conspicuously absent from that list is the current president of the united states. what can you tell us about the fact that the current president, donald trump, will not be there? >> reporter: he was definitely invited and melania trump will be there and in the front row. i think there is a tradition that former first ladies attend services for departed first ladies, so there is certainly no traditional requirement. the fact that the other former presidents are here absent jimmy carter who is overseas is their personal affection, their relationship with bush 41 and barbara bush. the clintons even though there was that bitter 1992 race and the terrible defeat for president bush after only one term, even after that they bonded over a number of issues, their joint work on hurricane and tsunami relief. bill clinton has been described by barbara bush at times as the
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black sheep of the family as the other son from another mother. they have become very close indeed. the clintons as well in issues of service and in contributing to president bush's points of light volunteerism campaign. so the obamas are here of course as the most recent -- recent first family. i think also in obvious fairness they say that it's because of security not to impose the magna tomters on the 1,500 people who are here, the private invited guests but one can't letter the 2016 campaign when donald trump went after jeb bush and even barbara bush campaigning for her son calling him a mama's boy, talking about low energy jeb. so there is that tension. so i think for everyone concerned it may be something of a relief that donald trump is not here today. >> and there is nothing wrong with being mama's boy, i will tell you as a mother of sons and a daughter. let me play for you, dana
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millbank this boy who loves his mama obviously, all the bush children have been talking about their mom. here is jeb bush on how his father is coping. >> today he's probably really struggling. he held my mom's hand all day long yesterday and she passed in the -- in the early evening and i called him and he said, i'm kind of a cry baby right now, not feeling very good. he is not completely -- he is physically better than he was a month ago and he's in and out mentally, but he's surrounded by family love for sure. >> dana, there is a lot that people can criticize about the bushes policy wise, a lot of people who disagree with the decisions they made, but they are a different kind of first family to what we have now in terms of their real bond, the lengthy, lengthy marriage of barbara bush and george herbert walker bush. talk about that. >> there's certainly nothing wrong i agree with being a mama's boy. i think there has been this
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outpouring, this bipartisan outpouring this week and i think it's -- in part it's because barbara bush was such a revered figure, in some ways more popular than her husband and then her president son, but i also feel as if we're saying good-bye to an era here and that is in sharp juxtaposition with the current era when politics was more genteel, there was a sense that your opponents were not your enemies, the bushes were all about family and about relationships. there were certainly bitter political disputes and there was plenty of controversial moments, but it was sort of that -- you know, bush was the last of the greatest generation presidents, those that fought in a war, those that came up through the depression and realized there were things that bind us together as americans. we've lost that more recently and that's never been more obvious than at the present time. so i think we are also mourning
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that era. >> yeah, indeed. military service, lengthy marriage, sort of that -- that sort of thing almost seems to be going out of style in the current party. i'm going to give andrea mitchell the last word on this. what do you expect to see and hear today? >> reporter: i think you're going to hear emotional tributes. jeb is supposed to speak, he has been -- it's been very tough for him and he's going to be one of the speakers, susan baker, very close friend, wife of james baker, former chief of staff, treasury and secretary of state and very close to the bush family here in houston. so those as well as jon meachum who wrote the definitive biography of george herbert walker bush and the whole family has been close to him. you are also going to see the bu bush granddaughters doing readings and the grandsons as pallbearers. this is a large family, 17
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grandchildren and a new great-grandchild the eighth just born two weeks ago. >> condolences to that very large family from the "a.m. joy" family. andrea mitchell, dana millbank thank you very much. of course, msnbc nbc will be covering today's services fofr mrs. bush beginning at noon eastern. that is our show for today. we are heading out early so we can bring you that live msnbc coverage for the funeral for barbara bush and we will see you back here tomorrow. stay with msnbc all weekend long. ♪ when heartburn hits...
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♪ ♪ good day to all our viewers and at this point we direct our attention out west to the largest episcopal cathedral in the united states, st. martin's church in houston, texas, for the funeral service for former first lady barbara bush. over the next 90 minutes or so this will be the focus of much of the political world. just in the past several minutes we have watched members of the
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johnson family, of the nixon family and of the extended bush political family, meaning friends, cabinet members, staff, acquaintances of george h.w. bush and president bush 43. our dynastic political american family of the last several decades and barbara bush was of course a huge part of that. we will have a number of our family members joining in in the coverage, chief among them chris matthews who is watching with us from washington. chris, as we said last night on the air with michael beshlos the presidential historian and author one way to put it is this, barbara bush was predeceased by their daughter robin and by civility. >> well, there's so much to say about her. barbara pearce bush, her family goes way back in this country's history and in many ways she
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represents the great first lady, stoic, tough, been through it all, but really in a way that seems traditional, but is so powerful the role she played in that household. the support she gave to her husband, the support she gave to her sons who both game governors and one became a president. that didn't just happen by accident. that family was built by her. i think we see its results every day. >> chris, you gave a beautiful remembrance on your broadcast the night after we learned of her death. just personal remarks by you to remind everyone that for her politics was very personal. >> you know, back when they were first elected, for whatever reason, i guess her husband liked something i said on tv, they invited my wife and i, kathleen and i to dinner one night. we brought along our parents because i asked if i could bring them. my mom was early on set with alzheimer's and i said i can't leave her at home.
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they took us into their arms that night. mrs. bush took me and my wife on a wonderful tour, into the most intimate parts of the family living space in the top of the white house and george did that particularly with my parents, it was an amazing evening of them sharing their old money existence, if you will. i remember this is an odd thing to remember, but i remember their alarm clock, they had carried with them all their married life apparently, cracked down the middle, held together by scotch tape, probably something they held true to, like old money we never get rid of something that's still useful. i was struck by that. i thought this is something about them she told us how she got up at 6:00 in the morning, they throw the newspapers on their bed, turned on all the morning shows and in this comfortable way and she would be swimming and then she would say and then my office did whatever he did that day, as if she wasn't involved with it, but clearly she was -- as i say, she built that family and she shared it with us that night. >> we can see there in the
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middle barbara bush hager -- jenna bush hager and her sister barbara bush. the bush girls one of whom we get to call a member of our extended nbc news family. a number of the bush grandchildren coming in together. and an enormous structure in houston, texas. we can't say it often enough. the largest episcopal church not just in the united states, but in north america. total membership, 9,400. the main sanctuary seats 1,300 people. and this has really been home base for the bush family, since 1964. their story, of course, starts in the east coast. barbara pierce bush. and chris mentioned the middle name pierce does indeed date back to president franklin
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pierce. often believed one of the more tragic stories of the people who made it to the white house. because it was when president franklin pierce and his wife were on a train en route to take the oath of office to washington. a horrific accident. caused them their son's life as they witnessed it on the train. for that the pierce name has lived on, however, as one of the finite people who held the office. you see the first lady there, melania trump. behind her former president obama. it's going to be that kind of thing. the view of the dignitaries in the first few rows are going to be notable. but the bush story starts for barbara pierce bush. she was born in new york city. raised just north of new york city. westchester county. and, of course, greenwich, connecticut, was home base for george herbert walker bush's
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family. here's mrs. trump. the obamas, the clintons. brian mulroney, the former canadian prime minister. chris matthews, this is, as i said, going to be this kind of day. >> you know, i think one of the things that's evoked today is the old predated republican party, the old wig party. it's new england-based. you'll notice a lot of guests here, john sununu, the former govern from new hampshire susan collins from maine. and they come from that tradition of new england. the bushes are new englanders. they lived in texas. they've become texans but they're so rich in that part. it's still there, and it's been honored and it has real prestige really in the party today. and i think we're going to see vocations of that. and the wonderful appearance of
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the episcopal church and anglo church. it's going to be wonderful tradition. i think we'll be overwhelmed how beautiful it is going nobody that church. >> still honored, yes, chris. but i think you'll agree with me that large portions of it are in retreat. >> yes, we could say, maybe, unfortunately. >> we saw john major come in behind the mulroneys of canada. and this is a set shot that we will have of the mourners. and, of course, all american political dignitaries there in the front row, looking at their programs. they appear to be down to the minute on scheduling. 11: 11:53:30 local time here on the east coast. and they are are about where they told us they would be. chris, talk about the current
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generation. george p. bush, chief among them in texas. folks out east don't understand the title texas land commissioner. and how it could possibly be as important as it is, in the state of texas. >> well, of course, texas likes electing people, not appointing people. that's one of those wonderful positions that does have -- really impresses people that you have a state wide elective office down there. he's been spoken off -- the son of jeb, he's been spoken of as a likely future politician. of course, jeb, was very successful as governor of florida, with the -- sort of the american of his mother. i think it's fascinating to think about jeb. because he's going to speak today. and it's going to be -- it's going to be so powerfully emotional when jeb speaks today. everybody likes jeb. he's a very likable guy. he married someone of latino
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heritage. he became a roman catholic. he's sort of a guy who is a regular guy in a way that his mother was regular. and i think it probably hurt him -- well, we know it did in his campaign, against the rock 'n' roll style of donald trump. he wasn't ready for that. he wasn't ready to be given a nickname low energy jeb. but that energy had a likable side to it which was loyalty and friendliness and loyalty to his wife who has had challenges and he's a good guy. i think the bushes have transplanted themselves so successfully in texas and, of course, in florida, they've been able to move around. bobby cook, of course is married to doro bush. he's been in democratic politics. marvin bush. when tip o'neill had his cou
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colosomy. marvin bushed called him up and said, it's okay. you can live with it. feel good about yourself. i think that's something i'll never forget someone as loyal like tip that a bush family member was thoughtful enough to say that. it matters. >> and so is this, the pick that will get to a lot of people, 43 placing 41's wheelchair in place there, as we were talking there, as we watched the bush children come in. of course, all of them adults. but this is the personal part for this family that's been in the public stage for so long. i think we should probably give a listen inside to see if anything is happening here.
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so, this is just the choir in the last few minutes. joe watkins is standing by to talk to us. joe worked in the bush white house. and his memories are heavy today. joe, give us a few seconds and tell us what your thoughts are since getting the news that barbara bush had passed on. >> well, i feel like everybody else who was part of the staff. she treated staff like family. that's why this is a hard day for many of us. she was a marvelous woman. smart, funny. very, very witty, very honest, very frank. and tough too. very, very tough. she's going to be missed. she was really an american classic. and what i really will miss about her is the fact that she treated everybody like they mattered, that was the wonderful thing. nobody was overlooked. she didn't act like some people
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were less important than others. she just treated everybody like they mattered. she didn't particularly think care too much about people who thought who highly of them. she's a loving woman. she will be missed. i know this is a hard day for president bush because she were so, so close-after 73 years, it's just tough to say good-bye the woman of your dreams, to your wife, the love of your life. i feel for him today especially because i know he must be going through a very hard time. >> joe watkins, thank you, i know you'll be watching with us. kelly o'connell has been as we look at president bush 43. kelly o'connell has been outside watching arrivals as this massive crowd including but not limited to a who's who of several decades of politics has
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filtered into st. martin's. kelly. >> reporter: well, brian, i'm very struck by the fact that this will be a personal service. i'm told that mrs. bush selected readings and music. she had such a hand in the planning of we will be seeing today. -i been in houston all week and i'm struck by how local and how personal she has held in the hearts of houstonians. of course, you've been talking about her reputation and legacy. but here, person after person we're meeting struck by the work she did in the white house. being active in the community of houston which is why we saw 6,231 members of the public file past on friday. of course, president bush was there for a brief time, greeting mourners. so, while there is legacy, there is history. there is also something very personable about how barbara bush was held in the hearts of houstonians in the years after the white house. i was also told by the secret service that agents spanning the 38 years that she was a
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protectee have come in from around the country to pay their respects as well. brian. >> that's what so many people don't understand, kelly, is the life inside the white house is so unique. it can be so closet closetphobic depending how you're wired. and you can either rebel and push against it or make life long friends out of it. and the bushes chose the latter. >> reporter: very much so. there are agents who have said she was the first protectee to ever speak to them, to inquire of them how they were doing. very striking. staffers across both white house 41 and 43 have been here. a sense of everyone being called home to serve the bushes today. a lot of the organization that's been happening, this is a

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