tv Deadline White House MSNBC May 18, 2018 1:00pm-2:00pm PDT
that a paycheck at the end of the week has never been a determining factor in the courage exerted as first responders run toward the danger. and we've had danger indeed again today with this shooting. top of the hour, 4:00 in the east. time to hand it over to our colleague nicolle wallace for today's broadcast of "deadline white house." nicolle? >> thank you, brian. we're going to stay on this story. it's 4:00 in new york. 3:00 p.m. in santa fe, texas where our attention, our thoughts and our prayers lie this hour. i'm nicolle wallace picking up our coverage of the tragic shooting at a high school. there are still a lot of unknowns, a ton of moving parts in the investigation. here's what we do know. the shooting happened just before 7:30 a.m. local time. law enforcement officials in santa fe, texas say nine students and one teacher have lost their lives. they caution that that number could change. ten other people were wounded. as for this shooter, we know he's a student himself at santa fe high school. he's 17 years old, he's alive
and he's in custody according to police. texas governor greg abbott said last hour that two other people are being interviewed by police as well. another thing authorities are focused on, what appear to be explosive devices found both in the school and outside on the campus. so far today, we've heard from several students who were at the school when the shooting took place. let's listen to their accounts. >> i was scared for my life. nobody should go through this. nobody should be able to feel that in school. this is the place where we're supposed to feel safe. this is where we come most of the week. nobody should have to go through this and nobody should feel that pain. >> i've heard that like someone -- that a guy came in with a trench coat and duffle bag and a shotgun and he started shooting people. i don't really know what else happened. >> was there a part of you, this isn't real, this wouldn't happen in my school? >> no, there wasn't. >> why so? >> it's been happening everywhere. i felt -- i've always kind of
felt eventually it was going to happen here, too, so i don't know. i wasn't surprised. i was just scared. >> that in and of itself a national tragedy. the president monitoring events in texas. he spoke about it earlier. >> to the students, families, teachers and personnel at santa fe high, we're with you in this tragic hour, and we will be with you forever. my administration is determined to do everything in our power to protect our students, secure our schools, and to keep weapons out of the hands of those who pose a threat to themselves and to others. >> it's a similar message he delivered to the one after the shooting in parkland, florida just 93 days ago. we'll be speaking to a father who lost his daughter in the parkland shooting in a few minutes. to that point, a grim but stunning fact, courtesy of the
washington post philip bump. 2018 has been deadlier for american school children than american service members. that fact wasn't lost on vice-president joe bide ebb. he tweeted a short time ago, kweet, enough is enough. decent people have to take a stand. these are our children. gabe gutierrez is on the ground in santa fe, texas for us. gabe, what's the latest? >> reporter: hi there, nicolle, good afternoon. within the past hour you just heard from governor greg abbott here. that's where i'm standing, the news conference, we just came from the school a short distance away. and we saw some tactical vehicles pulling out of there suggesting this is moving on to a new part of the investigation. we know that authorities right now are going through the school and the surrounding area as well as the suspect's home to try and find out more about those explosives. we heard in that news conference that it included co2 devices as well as a molotov cocktail. to wrap up what the governor said, ten people killed, ten
others wounded including law enforcement sources say a school resource officer. this community is absolutely devastated, but what we're trying to figure out is why. and authorities in that news conference within the past hour said that the suspect's journal had been recovered where he revealed that he intended to kill himself. but authorities managed to arrest him before he took his own life. authorities are now looking at one or two possible other persons of interest. one of them, authorities said, had a bit of an odd reaction in the aftermath of the shooting. they're still trying to work out what the connection is, if that person may have known about the suspect's motive. but we've been speaking with students who over and over again point the picture of a very troubled young man, a man -- a teenager, rather, that went into this school with a black trench coat and wore boots to class. several people wondering what could have motivated him to take this -- to carry out this tragedy. another interesting note we
heard within the past few minutes in that news conference from the governor is that the two weapons, the 38 caliber revolver and that shotgun that the suspect used, police believe that he got those from his father and they're trying to determine if the father even knew that his son may have gotten hold of those weapons, nicolle. >> gabe gutierrez, thank you so much for starting us off. here with us for the hour, dave cohen, author columbine. michael balboni, mar a gay, member of the "the new york times" editorial board. let me start with you and ask you two questions about law enforcement and what they're going through at this hour. i thought it was remarkable for the governor to talk about the shooter's journal entries already. i thought that that kind of came as the second phase when you try to ascertain motive. did that surprise you at all? and is there anything we haven't heard that you've heard from law enforcement officials about what went down today, the tragedy in santa fe? >> obviously the focus is going to be what possible motivations.
but also to see whether or not there are any other devices. we assume there is a certain timetable of this. but law enforcement right now is still in the search mode. they're trying to look for are there any other weapons out there, any other explosive devices. the explosive device element of this really kind of changed the dynamic of the scene because it's always about safety first, secure everything, and then of course the vick timds, atims, ae afterwards. part of that is to go into the digital footprint and all the information they could possibly have, and also who else were they talking to. that's what we always do after this. was there anyone else that -- from a conspiracy standpoint or also just did they tell people that they had these, these feelings and that we missed that sign. so, that's really what law enforcement is focusing on right now. the other element the governor talked about was the fact that this is a community that's going to be kind much resilient and the question is going to be, so
within the community, who knew also about this, who could have spotted this. there's going to be a lot of discussions in the community as well right now. >> the governor's message about guns was to parents to lock them up. obviously a sensible message for any parent with a gun. but i wonder what law enforcement thinks about the frequency and the fact that so far in 2018, more children have died in their schools than service men and women have died in service to this country. >> so, back in the 1990s when i served on the new york state legislature, the gun lock issue was a huge issue. it was as a result of safety. we were concerned about children hurting each other with a gun that was left unattended. now obviously the debate has changed, and so i fully expect the gun lock issue is going to rise up as well as the gun safety. we've watched it back and forth as to whether or not it's going to work. the objection has been wait a
minute, this is for my home defense. if i can't get to it quickly, what good is it? the other issue about the shotgun, that is such a ubiquitous weapon because it's used for hunting a lot. so now do you change the dynamic? and what do we do with the whole culture of hunting as it relates to shotguns in and of itself? >> and is there a prevailing wisdom inside law enforcement what the country should do from a policy or is there a raging debate there, too? >> that's a great question. obviously police officer safety is huge for anyone in that field. but at the same time, everybody sits there and says, well, what is the perfect result? here the initial report is he got the weapons from his father. we don't know if the father knew that he got the weapons. so, there's no perfect -- when everyone calls for legislation, i'm always cautioned, having been a lawmaker, that it's not a perfect solution. it's a very gross solution. >> is there something that would be better than what we have, though? is there not an olive above
where we deal with mental health, we deal with kids that are falling through the social fabric and where we deal with guns? >> there's one aspect to that that we really don't focus on a lot of times, it's money. make school buildings safer and train folks that takes money. if you want to do a better social services program and reach out to the kids that are in that gap that can't be helped, that takes money. there's all these resources that we can put into this. the question is with so many schools around the country struggling just to keep really the kids with books, what are we going do -- >> they're walking out -- the schools are in crisis. you've been in touch, you've been one of the public faces advocating on behalf of what has really been a new generation of activists in the gun debate in america. you're getting a little fixed to your microphones. this is where the magic happens. we love it. get a sandwich here, we'll be on
tv all day. this is who we are. tell me -- take me through how a day like today might retraumatize these brave and these beautiful, really inspirational -- to me, the parkland students gave me hope that i haven't had for the last 25 years around this issue, but what does a day like today do to them? >> it's awful. you know, i talk to so many victims still 19 years after columbine where it still hurts them. but the first ones, especially the first big one after can be the worst. you know, i just talked to -- i met with some las vegas survivors a couple weeks ago back at the scene of the crime, the first time back there and they told me about how traumatized they were by parkland. i can't remember, four months into their therapy, they were doing so well. the man being shot in the shoulder, the wife escaped with him. then parkland hit, it felt like they were right back to square
one. it often takes you back to that same day. the parkland kids -- this was finals week. i texted several of them this morning to see if they wanted to talk. i told my editors. they're in school, they probably haven't seen the text yet. imagine coming out of your finals being stressed about that and then, you know, seeing -- oh, my phone exploded and knowing something is up. it's just this chilling, horrible -- it takes them right back there. and i talked to one of the kids who said, i'm pretty shaken up right now. >> so, emma gonzalez who became i think recognizable, probably the world over, she's one of the parkland survivors. here she is right there. she gave that incredibly memorable speech in washington at the march. use silence as a device in a way i've never witnessed in my entire political career. but here's what she tweeted to the students at santa fe. santa fe high, you didn't deserve this. you deserve peace all your lives. not just after a tombstone
saying that is put over you. you deserve more than thoughts and prayers, and after supporting us by walking out, we will be there to support you by raising up your voices. the thought of these kids who are in the most horrific, horrifying nightmarish club that i could ever imagine, kids who have been on the receiving end of gunfire at their schools, where are we? >> so, i think there's actually a disingenuousness about the conversation at this point. every time we have a horrible shooting like this and then the president comes on and offers thoughts and prayers, it sounds more and more hollow every time. and i just -- i think that, honestly, i think sometimes the national dialogue acts as though -- we act as though we don't have any solutions. there may not be a perfect solution, but there are countries that actually do this very well and that we can learn from. it's as though that doesn't exist because it's politically
inconvenient. it just doesn't -- what we're dealing with is a political problem and a moral problem, and it's not as though there aren't solutions. we've called at the editorial board for assault weapons rifle bans. we've called for a strengthened network of background checks nationally. but i also just think, you know, we can only hope that as this happens in places where people didn't expect it to, right, that more and more americans of all different political backgrounds will realize that this is really a problem that can happen anywhere. i think if you look at law enforcement officials in new york city, for example, the n.y.p.d. commissioner james o'neal, as many commissioners did before him, have been very explicit about wanting tough gun laws because cities are a place where people have dealt with gun violence for years, and now that it's coming home to suburban and
rural areas in a different way, you know, we can only hope that thoughts are starting to change around this conversation. >> let me ask you something and let me put you on the spot a little bit. the nra leadership doesn't necessarily represent the views of every lawful gun owner and i wonder if you think that maybe one of the more productive places to have this conversation is with law abiding gun owners who support -- i mean, i think we're past the point -- no one is going to take on the nra. that is just where we are. democrats and republicans, but largely republicans, i'd say all of republicans and some democrats are simply bought and paid for at this point by the nra. but is there a place in this debate where nra members, but not necessarily the political leadership, could be the advocates, could be the voices for some of these kids and advocate in all of the above, advocate more red flags, more flagging of kids that seem to
get lost in whatever checks do exist, if any? is there a coalition to be cobbled together among people who are as repelled and frightened by the pace at which our kids are getting killed at school? >> absolutely. >> where are they? >> they're there -- it's not a monolithic group. what we see is just the leadership itself. and from their perspective, this is their day job. they have to advocate for the second amendment, the preservation of the second amendment. it all begins from there. but if you talk to folks -- >> but that's so extreme. i mean, that's the -- >> that's really oftentimes what gets the attention, is when you go to that aspect of it, because this stuff is really hard. so, for example, i know -- i'm very familiar with "the new york times" positions. you have a lot of really great points. the points you say wouldn't necessarily affect this situation. in other words, it's not -- if we did background checks, wouldn't affect this guy. he didn't need a background check. he took the gun from his
father's house. >> let me add to the conversation someone who lived this. joining us by phone is guttenberg whose daughter was killed at the marjory stoneman douglas high school in parkland, florida. we've been thinking about you and the families and students since the news broke this morning. how are you doing? >> hey, nicolle. i'll answer it this way. you know, we're only three months out from what happened here. every single day is still like february 14th. it doesn't get easier. every day there's new reminders of our loss. we just got through our first mother's day without our kids. my wife and i and my son, we struggled. and to have this happen again, it just -- i was in ohio on wednesday testifying in front of their house and senate at the request of governor kasich and their legislators there said,
we're not sure we're getting the push from the citizens of the state to do anything. and i said, that's a good thing because parkland didn't happen here. but don't take that as a false sense of security. you don't want to be the next one. and here we are two days later and it's the next one. and it was preventable again. it horrifies me. >> they're taking finals and trying to be normal. they'll probably never feel normal again. you and your family won't. here's a tweet from delaney. she tweeted i should be celebrating my last day of high school, but my heart is broken to hear of the tragedy of santa fe. another student tweeting at least eight students have been shot and killed at santa fe high school. prepare to watch the nra boast about getting higher donations.
see students rise to be crisis actors. i'm prepared to look at my twitter feed when i get off tv and hear a lot of that, but where are we that high school students should be prepared for that kind of abuse? >> you know what? enough is enough. every one of those kids is 100% right. we're going to have a generation of kids who won't want to go to school. but the horrifying thing is i learned about this this morning, nicolle, while reading the news of the shooting at the trump hotel, okay. and these shootings, they can happen anywhere and everywhere because we have irresponsible gun ownership. we have irresponsible gun laws. we have a president who stands up and embraces a gun lobby, the nra, and says, we should actually feel good about them.
we have mitch mcconnell and paul ryan who sit on their you know what and have no spine and won't even talk about this and it keeps happening. okay. the citizens of this country -- here's what i predict. this november, this will be the number one voting issue, okay. and if you're wrong on this issue, we're going to fire you because enough is enough is enough. >> let me read you someone who agrees with you and someone who i think may be in the small club that you had no wish to be a part of. gaby giffords tweeting today, i will not stand for this neither should you. parents shouldn't have to hug their children in the morning and worry whether they'll see them at the end of the day. we shouldn't live in a country where politicians let this happen again and again and again. let me put you on the spot and ask you how, where? we're going to play -- i know you're tight on time so we'll wait until, you know, we freed you, but we're going to listen to emma gonzalez again.
and if newtown, the loss of your daughter's voice and your voice and emma's voice, if things haven't changed, if none of these things change any of the laws, what shakes the debate up? >> let me give you a quick answer because it's not shaking it on a national level. we have irresponsible pathetic leaders who are letting it be that way. but it is changing on local levels. laws are changing in cities, in states every day right now. and what's happening, the nra is suing all of those states and cities for doing it. so, here's what i say we should do. every city, every state should go pass gun safety legislation now. force the nra to file a lawsuit all over this country against everybody. they don't care about our safety. every city, every community, every state ought to continue doing what they are doing because as long as washington won't act, we'll get the localities to act. we can get something done eventually washington will act and react as well.
>> let me ask you a last question that i put to someone else on my panel. are you willing to form a coalition that includes lawful gun owners who don't agree with the positions that the political leadership of the nra have taken? are you willing to be the big tent so that people who are lawful owners of guns believe in gun -- that believe in background checks -- are you willing to sort of lead the movement of let's throw everything at the wall? let's do more for mental health? >> yes. >> yes? where is that meeting? >> so, it's what i've been calling for. i think the majority of gun owners in this country are not supportive of the nra position, okay. and i think the majority of gun owners in this country are supportive of where i stand. and i've been saying from day one, it's all of those things. we need to limit the incidents that gets to mental health, that gets to security. we have to limit the casualties and that gets to guns. i would love to be part of that meeting. i think we need to do that.
and i think our responsible republican and democratic legislators need to be part of that with us. listen, nicolle, it's a reason why i keep on talking to senator rubio in spite of the way he and i had that interaction on town hall because i want to get something done. >> we are sorry again for your loss. we are sorry for anyway that today's tragedy brings that all back to square one for you as i'm sure is the case. and we are grateful to you for joining us and spending some time with us. >> thank you. >> thank you so much. our thanks to dave cullen and michael balboni. we're going to keep monitoring the scene in texas. we'll bling you any and all developments as soon as they come n. when we come back we'll fill you in on the fast moving developments in washington, d.c. today, including the president and his allies back on the attack against the fbi with an accusation they claim is bigger than watergate. plus, a surprising twist in the mueller investigation that turns up the heat against donald trump's former campaign chairman paul manafort. she believes in research.
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we're keeping an eye on the investigation and all of the aftermath of the tragic school shooting in santa fe, texas. we'll bring you all updates as soon as we learn anything new. but for now we turn back to washington where the president has stepped up his criticism of the fbi as part of his sustained campaign to discredit the russia investigation. the president tweeting this morning, quote, reports are there was indeed at least one fbi representative implanted for political purposes into my campaign for president. it took place very early on and long before the phony russia hoax became a hot fake news story. if true, all-time biggest
political scandal. donald trump is joining a chorus of his allies on fox news and in congress who have for weeks worked to expose an alleged top secret fbi source in the russia probe and according to the washington post, the situation is reaching a boiling point. they write, quote, the dispute pits trump and the republican chairman of the house intelligence committee against the justice department and intelligence agencies whose leaders warn that publicly identifying the confidential source would put lives in danger and imperil other operations. the stakes are so high that the fbi has been working over the past two weeks to mitigate the potential damage if the source's identity is revealed according to several people familiar with the matter. the bureau is taking steps to protect other live investigations that this person has worked on and is trying to lessen any danger to associates if the informant's identity becomes known. joining us now is phil rucker, white house bureau chief for the washington post, a by line on
that story, and jeremy bash, former chief of staff at the cia and pentagon, both are msnbc analysts and mara gay is still with us at the table. phil rucker, take me through this reporting. this is mind blowing. the president of the united states seemingly again overruling his own appointee at the fbi -- head of the fbi who seems to have grave concerns once again as he did with the nunes memo, not just of the sanctity of classified information, but of ongoing investigations unrelated to the russia probe and potentially lives hanging in the balance. >> yeah, nicolle, it's a pretty extraordinary moment here. the president, as far as we know, has not actually directed the department of justice to release this information. there's been no exact order that i'm aware of. but he certainly has been banging the drums on twitter and his attorney rudy giuliani told the post and has spoken about this to other news organizations as well that the president very
much wants this information out there. feels like these records need to be shared and feels like once they are out there, once the source is identified, the source's role is known to the public, that it will completely undermine the mueller investigation. there is a belief in trump's orbit that this is sort of the magic silver bullet, if it were, that this is the evidence that they will finally have to be able to discredit the mueller probe and potentially to remove mueller or the deputy attorney general rod rosenstein. >> the article is full of remarkable reporting. i want to read from some of it and ask you about it. you report that representative mark meadows, a member of the freedom caucus, a close ally of this president, has been conferring with trump and three or more calls a week communicating concerns that the justice department is hiding worrisome information about the elements of the probe according to people familiar with their discussions. trump often agrees with meadows and at times has encouraged him and other allies to go on television news shows and in the words of the senior
administration official, beat the drums. that certainly sounds like, you know, who called the code red. he called the code red. he's egging on his friends. he's got his lead lawyer in the russia case making these arguments on tv. he's tweeting about it. i guess what you're saying is the only thing you're not reporting is that the president has picked up the phone and called the fbi to say, out the informant. but everything else he seems to be willingly engaged in. >> that's right. he's building this public case for these records to be shared, applying a lot of pressure on twitter and through his allies in the media and through his attorney rudy giuliani on attorney general jeff sessions and the deputy rod rosenstein, but there's not been that presidential order. and i think that is in part because he knows that could be the first domino in a series of events. let's say he orders them to release the documents and the justice department officials refuse for all the reasons that have been stated publicly. that would force some sort of
decision potentially at the justice department about whether to follow through on that order from the president or perhaps resign. if they resign, you've got a whole bunch of dominos and it's really problem and becomes a problem for the white house. >> jeremy, let's have a straight conversation with christopher wray. when devin nunes wanted to release the house intel committee report, christopher wray went to capitol hill, met with the speaker and said, i'm begging you, don't do this. he then asked to brief the intel committee, the democrats and republicans about why not. he was rebuffed by paul ryan. he was rebuffed by the committee. he was ultimately rebuffed by the white house to release that memo unredacted. that's one big giant loss, something the president and the committee did over chris wray's, quote, grave concerns. here's chris wray's testimony before senate appropriations committee about the fbi taking seriously its responsibilities to congress. but also talking about important responsibilities to their sources. he said, quote, the day we can't protect human sources is the day the american people start
becoming less safe, wray said. quote, human sources in particular who put themselves at risk to work with us and with our foreign partners have to be able to trust that we're going to protect their identities and in many cases their lives and the lives of their families. how does chris wray continue to serve as america's director of the fbi if the president allows his allies to out an fbi informant? >> nicolle, this is a counter intelligence investigation. and the singular job of the house intelligence committee like the senate intelligence committee is to over see and ensure the sanctity of ongoing investigations of threats to our national security. without human sources, there is no fbi. without human sources, there is no cia. there is no intelligence community. there is no intelligence. there is no defense of our country. so, the effort to out a human source is about the most grave act that a leader of a house intelligence committee or congressional intelligence committee or a president of the united states or anybody in our justice department could undertake. it would truly, nicolle -- i'm
not overstating this. it would truly unravel our entire network of human sources around the world. nobody would trust that we could keep their identity secret. no one would give us information. we'd be blind. >> do you believe that's the president's intention? >> yes. >> someone must have told him what you just said. someone has to have walked into the oval office and said what you just said to the president. he's not busy, so they would have had time to get on his schedule. someone must have walked in and told him that. >> they may have told him that, but they may have also -- there also may have been another meeting in which they said, mr. president, you know, the way to undermine the mueller investigation here is to try to find someone who was giving the fbi information and try to make an example of them because that's clear what rudy giuliani has been telling the president. and that's clearly what congressional republicans at the house intelligence committee have been telling the president and so i'm not sure which meeting occurred, nicolle, and which one had sway. but right now they're going down
that second horrifying path. >> mara, let me read you something else the washington post team reporters including phil rucker added to their reporting last night. after reading this story we're talking about, worried that d.o.j. and potus and congress situation is a, quote, tinder box. says kell and i mcgahn trying best to calm the tensions, but outside allies are pushing for a showdown, especially as blogs and cable speculate about source. let me ask you the same question i just asked jeremy about chris wray. don mcgahn as i understood it tried to make a similar case around the memo around supporting some of fbi director christopher wray's requested redactions on sources and methods. if don mcgahn and christopher wray lose again and if rudy giuliani and the tv host that the president likes prevail, how do they continue in their jobs if they can't protect a human source? >> well, i would turn that around just a little bit and say
that it's very clear, especially since rudy giuliani joined the team, that those around the president are becoming increasingly more extreme and those moderate voices or those voices of moderation, i will say, are fewer and far between. >> i don't know if they're moderate, but they adhere to some norms. don mcgahn understands the importance of an fbi director's objections, it would appear. >> absolutely. and so it's extremely important that those people continue to say whatever it is that they're saying that keeps the president, you know, from doing crazy things like firing bob mueller, for example. that's important. i'm also curious for phil rucker if in his reporting if he's -- >> we're going to fix your mic. let me take that question back to phil rucker. phil rucker, can you weigh in on this other piece of reporting about a tinder box? that sounds imminent. give us a sense of what you're reporting out on the timing of the showdown. >> well, just that it's moving
very quickly and the trump allies in congress, mark meadows, but also devin nunes, the chairman of the house intelligence committee, jim jordan, a prominent republican from ohio. they're eager to force this showdown like yesterday. they want it to happen now. they want those documents out. they want the public to learn about this. they claim, you know -- they explain it by saying, look, this is our congressional oversight obligations and they feel like the department of justice is not only holding this up, but is potentially in contempt of congress by not providing these records. there is an effort in the white house by mcgahn as well as by chief of staff john kelly to just slow it down, put the brakes on it a little bit, give the justice department a little bit more time to figure out and manage how to respond to this and to cool it. but clearly president trump has been agitated by this. people have been talking to him, including mark meadows on the phone in recent days. he's been tweeting about it and i expect that to continue. i don't think he's going to let this go. certainly not considering fox
news is talking about it a lot and it's a really hot issue right now on breitbart and some of the other conservative news outlets that he views as really the town square, if it were, for his base of political supporters. >> jeremy, is it clear to you that we're now way beyond the president even feigning any adherence to norms or fealty to these agent sniz he is the cia's number one client yet he's willing to out a human source. they are men led by him, hand picked by him, chris christie, i'm surprised we're not hearing an effort on chris christie's part who is vested in chris wray staying and doing his job and leading that agency. is it just so obvious -- is this another proof point of obstruction of justice hiding in plain sight? >> yeah, i mean, the president has had several runs at obstructing the investigation, including dangling pardons,
including trying to pressure his attorney general, forcing out obviously jim comey. forcing out ultimately andy mccabe. and now trying to get his allies on capitol hill to out some of the sources, chill witnesses, and overall create a circus environment around this investigation which heretofore has been very professionally led, very expeditious, very leak proof, and very workmanlike by bob mueller. but i think there is a larger point here, nicolle, that we have to put on the table, which is that this is a counter intelligence investigation about the activity of an adversary of the united states, the russian federation. that attack by russia just didn't end on election day. it is ongoing. and so when you out human sources who are reporting about russian adversarial activity inside the united states, you are actually emboldening your adversary. you are actually making it much harder to go after the russians. and so the only motivation that i can see of people who would want to undermine this investigation is they want to help the russian federation. that is the only motivation i
could understand. >> let me pull you out on that, then. does that go to the president's state of mind, vis-a-vis the russia investigation? >> well, yeah. and obviously he doesn't like the heat and light that's surrounded it because he's the subject of it. but again, his responsibility isn't just to protect himself. he's commander in chief. he's got to protect the country from an ongoing attack by a foreign adversary. and when you out human sources who are reporting to our counter intelligence officials about that adversary's activities, you are helping an adversary plain and simple. >> let me ask you one last really quick question. is it hyperbolic to say that people could die if we start outing human sources? >> no. i mean, maybe not in this circumstance it wouldn't happen, but certainly people who risk their lives to go deep into the heart of isis, al qaeda, counter proliferation networks and certainly in capitals all over the world where their identity, if revealed, could lead to them
being rounded up, i am prisoned, interrogated and ultimately executed. we've seen that happen. it is an accurate statement to say outing human sources could risk their lives. >> all right. up next, robert mueller nets another cooperating witness. this time someone very, very close to donald trump's former campaign chairman, paul manafort. people would stare.
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he stretched himself thin bailing out his former son-in-law jeffery, now he has flipped on manafort. take us through the legal drama and the family drama. >> yeah, there's a little bit of insult to injury here for paul manafort. >> yes. >> he was in sort of financial dire straits because he had gone in on a number of these real estate deals in california and new york with jeffrey yohai at the time his son-in-law, and these deals were distressed, they were in trouble and he continued to invest in them to try to bail his son-in-law out and himself to some extent. then his son-in-law and his daughter get divorced and he's still in this financial trouble, which sort of sets the stage at the time -- this was during the campaign. at the time you remember, now we see from these e-mails, that he is trying to get made whole from some of his former clients in
ukraine, including the russia-aligned political party opposition block which was the successor to the yanakovich political party and the oligarch whose interactions with manafort through this guy constantine are now at the center of the mueller probe and paul manafort is having trouble paying his bills from the mueller probe. so, all the financial distress that sort of led him to this situation can be linked to some extent to this jeffrey yohai guy who is now working with investigators, potentially in the cases against manafort. >> so, manafort has been, i believe, charged with more crimes than anyone else in the mueller probe. he has not pleaded to any of them. is there any speculation among watchers, close watchers of the legal machineations of the mueller probe that this may be a piece that turns paul manafort into a cooperating witness, that
once federal investigators know everything his son-in-law knows, it may no longer be sustainable for him to not plead guilty to something? >> i think there may be that ponlt, nicolle. and the reason why i think it, it's sort of on tap terrain. we've seen a bunch of charges and a bunch of court filings that layout the case that mueller has built against manafort on things like unregistered foreign lobbying, on banking and money laundering violations. but we don't see anything directly related to these real estate deals. so, the fact that now you have a potentially cooperating witness who could help build a case in some uncharted territory in mueller's case against manafort is significant whether any charges actually come of it or not. >> jeremy bash, i want to put something up for you that has always struck me just as a parent. you've got four families with two generations involved. you've got mike flynn and mike flynn, jr., ensnard in the
mueller probe. paul manafort and now his son-in-law pleading guilty. you've got donald trump and his son-in-law jared kushner and his son donald trump, jr. you've got jim comey talking about sort of how the family sounded and acted like a mob family. and you've got men, the three on the top, try not to swear in front of my son. you have men and their sons in law in potentially criminal enterprises. >> boy, nicolle, the thanksgiving table is not going to be a pleasant conversation in those families. it does, it does showcase that obviously people's judgment can get clouded when they're dealing in family enterprises. it is a word of caution. but, look, all the people on the bottom rung of that chart are adults and i think the way prosecutors and law enforcement officials view things is that if you are an adult and you know what you're doing, then you have to pay the consequence. and the fact that you have a
familial relationship shouldn't make it worse for you and it shouldn't make it better for you. i think it does put the guys on the top rung, the dads, in a very uncomfortable position if they're going to have to make a choice whether or not they involve their own kids in criminal activity. >> stunning, right? >> you're almost rendered speechless. it's so funny because we say sometimes in journalism, you know, truth is always stranger than fiction. >> always. the problem with fiction is it has to be plausible. not so with nonfiction. >> that's exactly right. you know, honestly what we're seeing is the puzzle pieces and we're seeing more and more puzzle pieces. we don't know exactly how they fit together yet. i'm sure bob mueller does. hopefully. but i just think it's just another example of why it's so important that as much support as possible, you know, goes to the fbi, goes to our institutions, and that we hold house republicans in particular
accountable for holding up the rule of law over partisanship. >> yeah, and also shows whether we're all hysterical. ken vogel, jeremy bash, thank you so much. we'll go to washington with an update and find out what the white house is saying this hour. dear great grandfather, you were persecuted, and forced to flee the country of your birth. but you started a new life in a brand new world. when i built my ancestry family tree, i found your story... then, my dna test helped me reclaim
with the right steps, 80%of recurrent ischemicide. strokes could be prevented. a bayer aspirin regimen is one step to help prevent another stroke. so, i'm doing all i can to stay in his life. be sure to talk to your doctor before you begin an aspirin regimen. after the first three shots, no one even moved. people were like, what was that? and they were like, they don't know. and then after, that we heard more shots. and the teacher screamed at us to start to run. everyone started running, taking off, people were getting hit and everything. it's crazy. >> it's heart breaking to say, but that was a student describing a deadly shooting in his high school today. we are monitoring all the latest developments out of santa fe, texas, where law enforcement officials tell us at least ten people are dead, another ten wounded following another shooting at a high school. the 17-year-old suspect is in custody as we speak. back in washington as we look at
the white house the president has ordered flags at half staff. and nbc's peter alexander joins us from the white house. the president made some comments earlier. any other updates on his thoughts, how he is responding to this? i know he paid close attention to the news coverage after parkland. is something similar happening today. >> this is now 22 school shootings this year, three in the last week. this has become all too familiar. with the president speaking out again today in the wake of the seventh shooting -- the seventh time he has done it after a shooting during his presidency. he made early comments initially in his own words gauging the scope of the shooting saying early reports not looking good. god bless all. then i was in the east room a short time after when he had more prepared at the top of an even about prison reform. he said it was a very sad day. you called it a horrific attack. he also said he remains determined to do everything he
and his administration can to try to make sure there are no more school shootings like this, to keep guns out of the hands of individuals that could be a threat. of course for this white house, the focus has been less about guns than it has been about school safety more broadly. you will remember after parkland, the president invited victims and survivors here to the white house. he then set up what is a federal commission on school safety. that's being headed up by the secretary of education. i spoke to her office within the last hour or so. they tell me the commission has met twice this the course of the last several months and hope to have several recommendations prepared by back the school and certainly hope to have the report completed they tell me by the end of the year. but the bottom line, you remember the president after parkland when he had some lawmakers here at the white house, he seemed to shock gun rights groups by suggesting he was going to push to raise age limits, that he was going to push for universal background
checks, even challenged some lawmakers saying they were too scared to take on the nra. as we witnessed just two wooengs ago there he was again with the nra effectively embracing them. at least to this point none of those broad proposals that he initially seemed to support have been put into effect. >> philip bump of the "washington post" tweeted that more american school children have died in their classrooms than servicemen or women died in combat in 2018. obviously donald trump has been our president for all of 2018. i wonder -- he talks so much about spending money on the military. any efforts to surge funds to schools? >> well, it seems right now that effectively what they have done is said hey, we'll let the commission do its work. and then months from now they will come up with some potential answers. whether that means more money going towards schools -- you know you have heard from this president suggesting that one good solution might be that some
teachers are trained and can be armed in the classroom. as the president has said on multiple occasions you need to have people shooting in the other direction. but the bottom line is for this president, he's effectively sort of put his line in the sand on this and he is going to leave it to others to try to come up with this solution. i doesn't appear he has any particular answers to it rye now. >> he was there, yucking it up, i think is what they call it with the nra. i watched the whole thing. i'm sure you did, too. peter alexander thank you. we have to sneak in our last break. we'll be right back. if these packs have the same
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one else can do that. thank you for abouting with us. that does it for our hour. i'm nicolle wallace. "mtp daily" starts right now. hi chuck. >> hello. good evening. and welcome to "mtp daily." we are following what's becoming a familiarly disturbing scene. a deadly school shooting. a disturbed high school student, access to guns this. one at high school outside of houston where a gunman entered a high school carrying a shut schott gun and a hand gun entered the school and opened fire. the suspected gunman, dimitrios pagourtzis, is under arrest. he is a 17-year-old who attended the school and he is being held on charges of capital mird. witnesses at the school described a chaotic scene. >> nobody thought it was a shooting. everybody just thought it was, you know, normal procedure, practice fire drill. and next thing you know,