tv All In With Chris Hayes MSNBC May 18, 2018 5:00pm-6:00pm PDT
with how he operates. how he lives. for donald j. trump. and that's "hardball" for now. thanks for being with us, all in with chris hayes starts right now. >> tonight on "all in." >> i was scared for my life. nobody should go through this, nobody should be able to feel that in school. this is the place where we're supposed to feel safe. >> another school shooting in america. >> it's been happening everywhere. i felt i've always kind of felt eventually it was going to happen here, too. >> ten dead at a high school in santa fe, texas. >> this has been going on too long in our country. too many years, too many decades now. >> then the president declares open war on his own justice department. >> i wonder what the heck is the legitimacy of the mueller investigation in the first place. >> new testimony to the mueller grand jury. the russia probe subpoenas two of trump confidante roger stone's aides and a scan lal lous abuse of power as the president personally tries to
punish an american publisher. >> the post office is losing billions of dollars. it delivers packages for amazon at a very below cost. >> when "all in" starts right now. >> and good evening from new york. i'm chris hayes. 93 days ago, a former students of marjorie stoneman douglas high school armed with an assault rifle fatally shot 17 people at that high school in parkland, florida. with chants enough is enough and not one more than never again movement was born in the wake of that mass murderer created by grieving high school students determined to bring about change but awary enough to know it would probably happen again. today it happened again. a third fatal school shooting since parkland and the worst at santa fe high school in santa fe texas, outside houston. nine students and one teacher were shot and killed this morning, ten more injured. the suspect a 17-year-old student is in police custody. it was just one month ago that
students at santa fe high school walked out in solidarity with the never again movement. today one high school student said sadly she was not surprised by the day's events. >> was there a part of you that was like this isn't real, this would not happen in my school? >> no, there wasn't. >> why so? >> it's been happening everywhere. i felt i've always kind of felt like eventually it was going to happen here, too. so i don't know. i wasn't surprised. i was just scared. >> three months ago, fret guttenberg's 14-year-old daughter jamie was killed in the parkland, florida shooting and he joins me now. i have to ask you how you're doing. i imagine it's an incredibly wrenching day for you and everyone in your community. >> that sums it up. you know? listen, this whole week for myself and the other families has been brutal. just a reminder we started this week with mother's day and our
mother's day included or didn't include a member of our family who we love in my case my daughter followed by the next day the three-month anniversary. my heart breaks for these families today. you've got parents who now have to go through the process that to me feels like it happened only yesterday. figuring out how do i bury my kid? what am i going to say if i say anything? how do i deal with the grief of my other kids? what do we do as a community? these are -- the next few days in this community are just going to be -- they're going to be hard. they're going to be emotional. they're going to be unnecessary. this should never have ever happened again. i just my heart breaks for these people. i'm here for them if they need me. i know the other parents from parkland feel the same way. you know. i would just advise them for the next week take time to be with
your loved ones. bury those that you need to bury and you know, deal with your grief because it doesn't get easy. it doesn't get easier. in fact, every day that goes by i miss my kid more. >> you have really devoted yourself in the wake of the loss of your daughter to this issue. to gun safety legislation. how do you feel about that struggle in the last three months and today? >> you know, i'm very upset today. looking at the last three months, i have a degree of optimism because of what's happening in local communities. you have communities, cities and states who are enacting gun legislation. you have businesses that are changing their business model. you have banks that are changing the way they lend. you have pension funds that are decide they go don't want to be in the business of guns. so there's a solicit. there's a movement.
the problem is, it's happening outside of washington. and in order to have true common sense gun safety, to prevent these incidents from happening again, and when they do, to limit the casualties, you need leadership from washington, d.c. we have a president who simply refuses to show leadership in the event of these incidents. we have paul ryan and mitch mcconnell who choose to say nothing. and i will tell you and i said this earlier today because saying nothing is not -- does not equal legislation. sitting down and slitting up doesn't mean you've done something. i'm just furious at their inability to be part of the movement to get legislation done. and i will tell you, the way i'm feeling today is even more committed to making this the number one issue in the november election and firing those
legislators who won't get this done. we all eventual families. we have kids. and you know what? they deserve to be able to go out in public without fear of being shot. >> fred guttenberg, i really appreciate you taking time tonight. i hope you get some time to process this all this evening. i really appreciate it. >> thanks, chris. >> lucy mcbath is the mother of jordan davis a victim of gun silence. sley served as spokeswoman as a democratic candidate for congress. matt post from montgomery county maryland spoke at the march for our lives rally in washington. his group took part in a lie-in in sport of gun legislation outside of paul ryan's office today. lucy, i want your reaction to something lieutenant governor dan patrick said about this. you're running for congress. listen to what he had to say after words starting getting out about the shooting.
>> we may have to look at the design of our schools moving forward and retrofitting schools that are already built. what i mean by that, there are too many entrances and too many exits to our over 8,000 campuses in texas. maybe we need to look at limiting the entrance and the exits into our schools so that we can have law enforcement looking at the people who come in one or two entrances. >> what do you think about that idea in. >> i think it's not a good idea. i think that poes a safety issues there limiting the number of exits and entrances for the students. in the event of these shootings, if the students don't have ways to exit the building, then that is a liability in itself. i just don't think that's the answer. >> matt, you were shaking your head, as well. >> yeah, i mean the central problem with that is that this is not a school safety issue.
this is an american safety issue. and while it hasn't been making the headlines the past three months, the steady clurn of violence happening every day in chicagoing in d.c., in baltimore is continuing. we need to address all gun violence, not these news worthy instances of them. >> you're nodding your head, lucy. >> yes, i agree with him 100%. and the fact that we do have you know, a government that continues to turn a blind eye and try to find additional solutions outside of really doing what's really right and credible, what we know sfiskcally, what we know with research and data really problems that in order to reduce the instances of gun violence, we have to change the laws, the ways by which people are allowed to use their guns. that is the most credible common sense solution that we can do. and if our federal government if our legislators continue to do
this very thing that weigh doing is turning a blind eye and acting as if this is not a human and moral issue, we will do something about that in the fall. it's incumbent upon the american people to understand and know that they have a right to just not allow these kinds of things to continue to happen but threw have the power and they have the tools to do something about it. >> matt, your group was protesting outside paul ryan's office today. what was that about? >> we were demanding the same thing, thousands and thousands and thousands of millions of kids across this country are demanding which is universal background collection. paul ryan needs to bring a universal background check bill to the floor of the congress. 87% of americans support a bill like that. the only reason that it is not being passed that it's not being brought to the floor is because of nra money.
a small group of extremists and radicals are causing people to die. >> lucy, you're running for congress now. i first met you years ago after the loss of your son. and you've been active in this movement. what prompted you to make that move from being an activist and spokesperson to actually running for congress? >> well, actually, it's been a number of tradition over and over again. but the catalyst for me was parkland. i had just come from colorado spending time with the legislators there. they do really good work with background collection for all gun sales. just there continuing to talk with their legislators and continuing to encourage them to do the good work they're doing. the moment that i stepped off the plane in atlanta, my phone was blowing up over parkland. i could barely get out of the airport, my heart was so heavy and i was so emotionally burdened by the fact that here we go again. and i just decided that our
children need support. they need help. if they are going to do the right thing and demand that our legislators be accountable to them, i was going to do whatever it took to help them. that is the reason why i've decided to run for congress because i know that as a victim, i have the ability to you speak to credence to this issue. and that is my number one policy agenda in washington. i'm going to do whatever i can to prevent these tradition and our children from dying in their own schools and on the streets. >> matt, you've been active with the never again movement. it caught fire, it was such a sort of, it's been been so inspi inspining. it's hard work even when the cameras are away. give us a sense of your role in the movement where it is at this moment. >> we've been working regardless of whether the cameras are on us holding town halls or organizing voter registration drives, organizing protests in front of the nra headquarters.
the work continues. and ultimately, the object at the end will be november 6th, 201. we have 170 something days until that day. we're going to make sure that kids are showing up making our voices heard and anyone who takes a cent from the nra or gun lobby is not going to get re-elected. >> what would you be saying to your colleagues in congress if you were there today or on monday, lucy? >> i would remind them why we are there. i would remind them that we have been elected by people that believe in our ability to give them a good quality of life and to keep them safe. and that this is a moral issue and a crisis. we are at the tipping point. and if they are not about doing right by the people that elected them, then maybe they don't need to be there. and that's what i intend to do is hold washington accountable. hold them accountable.
i think that any other person that is willing to be about the business of do is what's right for democracy, for the people that put them in office, yes, they deserve to be there but if but are not about that, then you must be removed. >> matt, you're in high school now. am i right? >> yep. >> i always wonder, what is it like in a high school that you haven't had a shooting there as far as i know. after something like this happens, you how do kids talk about it. >> kids are afraid. people are scared to go to school. some people don't go to school for days after these shootings. >> really? >> yeah, this has become our reality. but it doesn't have to be. that's the thing. the inaction of congress is violence. and we are looking to our national leaders and begging them to give us some shelter from this fear. some shelter from this violence. and they're continuing to do
nothing. and i don't know whether to feel despair or rage about that. >> lucy mcbeth and matt post, thank you both. >> thank you. >> coming up, progress on gun control has been happening. in three months since parkland. happening in state houses. plus, the president spent the morning tweeting pretty wild stuff as he escalates the open warfare on his own justice department. we're back in two minutes. and that's how he intended to keep it. then he met the love of his life. who came with a three foot, two inch bonus. for this new stepdad, it's promising to care for his daughter as if she's his own. every way we look out for those we love is an act of mutuality. we can help with the financial ones. learn more or find an advisor at massmutual.com
the school shooting in santa fe, texas, comes three months after the tragedy in parkland, florida. in that period of time, the parkland students have shaken the country out of a learned helplessness about gun violence and inspired real progress. florida's republican governor instituted what's called a red flag law allowing police to temporarily remove guns from a person at risk and they raised the minimum age of a person to buy a gun and vermont's
republican governor banned bump stocks, limiting the size of magazines and requiring all sales to go through a licensed dealer. maryland has a republican governor, as well banned bump stocks and domestic abusers in the states can no longer have the gun which is now the law in deep red kansas. new york tightened its laws for domestic abusers. oregon closed the so-called boyfriend loophole. back on the east coast, rhode island joined florida and pld with a red flag law of its own. all of that since parkland. all that action follows connecticut's lead which passed sweeping legislation in the wake of the 2012 sandy hook shooting. i'm joined by the government of connecticut, dannel malloy. am i wronging that there has been quite a bit of progress in a very short amount of time at the state level? >> at the state level, chris, is where it's happening. quite frankly, i think the nra
doesn't have the level of influence by demand because had he pay for it in state capitals that they do in washington. now that i've said that, they put more resources into state capitals but the reality is though, connecticut had a law that takes away guns temporarily from people who are acting erratically since 1999. it made sense then, it makes sense now. i don't care how late you come to the table, just get it done in your state. let me give you a statistic about texas. in 2016, the last verified figure, over 3,500 people in the state of texas died as a result of gun violence. in my state, it was 172. >> now, i i understand they be got a bigger population. 12.6 individuals lost their lives per 100,000. in my was 4.6.
you can part of changing the culture that death is okay in the pursuit of some idealized idea about what the constitution says. the reality is our first obligation as elected officials is to make our citizens safe. and so many people are failing that test. >> what are the things that connecticut did to in the wake of sandy hook? what are some of the best practices from your perspective if a state is looking to reduce the levels of gun violence? >> he >> listen, number one, we should make sure that every gun changes hands by a licensed individual or at least is subject to a background collect and a three-day waiting period. we have done away with those, the weapons that have been so often used although not used in this incident. we've banned bump stocks. we've banned large capacity magazines. in the last four years, in part as a result of what we did on
gun violence, connecticut has had the largest drop in violent crime of any of the 50 states by almost 30% above the next nearest state. we're making progress. i'm proud that we're showing a way to get this done. it's not just about violent crime. children in particular are killing themselves because their parents have a gun. you know, we should have a form in this country that everyone signs and actually gives this statistic by state. how much more likely it is that your son or daughtering will kill themselves at your home as a result of you having a gun. or that your son or daughter or yourself will kill yourself or that somebody will use it in a crime. how much more likely it is that someone in your home will be injured as a result of the gun being in your home. if we actually told the truth to the american people on an ongoing and regular basis, we could make america safer. but the nra has passed laws to make sure that that doesn't happen. we didn't even do national research.
recently, connecticut and new york, new jersey and rhode island now joined by i think it's delaware and massachusetts have a consortium where we'll do our own research and publish all the results and work together across state borders to share information about dangerous individuals and what's going on in gun trafficking. but you know, one of the things about connecticut is, we require all the things that i previously mentioned but guns still get to our state almost always from states that have these gun show loopholes or other loopholes that make 41% of gun sales in america not subject to any background check. >> you have been in this political fight for awhile. how would you characterize the politics of this issue at this moment three months after parkland and on this day in which ten of our fellow citizens in the u.s. were killed? >> i should have begun by saying that my heart does go out to the parents of those individuals. and to the loved ones of those individuals. it is a terrible thing. we had our own tragedy in the
state and quite frankly, i and so many other americans don't hear of some gun shooting without thinking of what happened in newtown. but the difference between some states and others is some states are doing something about it. some other states are cowering. i understand that governor abbott's embarrassed he had a mass shooting in a church and now a mass shooting in a school and that he has 3,500 people per year die of gun violence. listen, join us. do something about it. make your citizens safer by telling them the truth by passing sensible gun laws. that's what this thing is all about. it is happening in more and more states. as you mentioned kansas which is no connecticut when it comes to our politics, i'll be the first to an admit but they're doing something. if florida can be brave enough to change their laws, why can't texas do it. >> dannel malloy, thank you for joining me. when we return, trump and rudy.
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the president and his apparently pro bono lawyer and their allies in congress have now declared open war on the mueller investigation. and the president's own justice department leadership. they have cooked up a new conspiracy theory, it must be the eighth or ninth about a secret fbi source who has been helping the russia probe claiming without evidence that that source wasn't just an informant aiding a criminal investigation but rather was sent to spy on the trump campaign as part of a plot to frame the president. the president tweet there had morning reports are there was at
least one fbi representative implanted for political purposes into my campaign for president. it took place very early on and long before the phony russia hoax became a hot fake news story. if true, all time biggest political scandal." there's no evidence to support that claim which the president's own lawyer copped to earlier today. >> this informant if there is one, first of all, i don't know for sure if there was one. we're told that. >> by whom. >> by people for a long time we've been told there was some kind of infiltration. at one time the president thought it was a wiretap. >> there's never been any proof he was on a wiretap either. >> no. >> no proof. but that's not what matters here. what we know according to "the washington post" is that the source is, the person who did help the fbi apparently in this criminal investigation is a u.s. citizen who has provided information over the years to the fbi and cia and aided the russia investigation before and after mueller's appointment a year ago.
the president's allies led by devin nunes have been attempting to expose the fbi's source in their latest scheme to sabotage the investigation. they've stopped in trying to conceal their real motivations and dropped all pretenses. giuliani telling "the post" if there was actually a spy inside the trump campaign, it would render the whole mueller probe sfb completely illegitimate." according "the post," the stakes are so high the fbi has been working over the past two weeks to mitigate the potential damage if the source's identity is revealed taking other steps to protect other investigations he has worked on and lessen danger to associates. the president's hand picked fbi director sounded the alarm in senate testimony earlier this week on this very matter. >> human sources in particular who put themselves at great risk to work with us and with our foreign partners have to be able to trust that we're going to protect their identities and in.cases their lives and the lives of their families. and the day that we can't
protect human sources is the day the american people start becoming less safe. >> for more on what exactly the president and allies are up to, i'm joined by ian bassen and former federal prosecutor harry sandik. harry, let me start with you. offer seen anything like this. >> i've never seen anything like this. will the president's defense team in their eagerness to protect the president not only is tearing up norms in other areas of our government and laurlts and calling fbi agents storm troopers but now actually putting real human beings at risk. human beings who apparently have gone out of their way to take steps to protect our government to protect our people and assist in national security investigations. it's very serious. >> you were a prosecutor. right? >> yeah. >> you've built cases before. informants, how common are they? >> they're on every case. you have different kinds.
the type of informant here is what we might call a source of information. they aren't someone who you implant as a pleb, let's introduce this is person. >> this is not donny brasco inside the trump campaign. >> no, this is a person who says if i see something interesting, i'll give you a call. that seems to be what happened here based on the public reporting. > there's a way in which it seems they are getting more sophisticated in their attempts to subvert the investigation. it's not just we're going to fire mueller and rosenstein but the subterfuge in which they team up with members of congress to use kong greggs did authority to use the white house to go after the justice departments. >> it seems they have concluded they can no longer deny some sort of collusion or conspiracy took place. they're moving their defense to a different tactic which is well, distract with attacks on the investigation which is what you're seeing with this attack on the potential fbi informant or even saying even if there was some sort of conspiracy or
collusion, that's okay. so my organization protect democracy filed a civil suit against the trump campaign for conspireing with russia and yesterday there was a hearing in the case which was the first time that trump lawyers stood up in open court to answer questions about the russia conspiracy. amazingly, the trump legal team didn't really push back very hard on the idea of a conspiracy. they essentially were arguing look, even if we did work with russia to dump these e-mails that were hacked, well, that's just political activity and our first amendment right to do so. >> really. >> they did that. it was absolutely stunning that that's essentially the argument they're making. when you think if you were innocent, the alternative would be to say, oh, there was an fbi informant in our campaign? great. that person can confirm we didn't do anything wrong but they're not saying that. >> that is a good point. and everything that is going on here seems to resolve around fear that that's not what is going to happen. >> that's right.
it does seem as ian was saying that you know, you would want to say, if this were legitimate to say thank goodness that the fbi was here. the fbi there's been reporting told the trump campaign in the summer of 2016, if you are approached by foreign agents please let us know. we have concern about foreign agents influencing the election. this was only a month after the so-called trump tower meeting. nobody ever told the fbi. >> part of this too which is strange is this dance with congress where devin nunes doing the white house's bidding even though against their own justice department. right? "the washington post" reporting nunes has purposefully not been talking to trump to avoid accusations he's providing information to the president instead he's been relaying it to white house counsel don mcgahn. as someone who worked in the white house council's office, is that a meaningful distinctioning? >> it's not. here's the question for the lawyers working in the white house council's office. i sat in those offices.
trump may not care about tearing down the norms of our democracy but surely some of these people do. to go back to joe welsh during the mccarthy hearings, have these people no decency left? we're talking about trump trying to out an informant that could endanger lives. i would hope the good people still work in the white house and government don't want that on their conscience. when they he will speak up and say we've crossed a line and gone too far. >> this is part of a broader strategy really. for awhile when ty cobb was working there and john dowd, of course we're cooperating and the president will be clear and we're looking forward to being wrapped up. they seemed to have dropped that in favor of total war. >> it does seem that way. this is a perfect example of it. the extent to which they may be willing to burn down the building in order to accomplish their ends because not only will this person and people who have worked with this person be exposed but who would come forward tomorrow and say to the government, you know, i normally
would call the fbi but look what happened to the last guy. >> he was outed revealed the moment his name was turned over to congress, it was in the public eye in ten minutes. >> here's the bigger danger. the first thing we he did was consult expert who's studied autocrats around the world over the last 30 years. they said if you want to know from american democracy is in danger look for a couple things. one are they trying to politicize independent institutions like law enforcement? two trying to put out disinformation to confuse the public, three trying to eliminate collects that could hold the executive accountable, four trying to corrupt elections. in this story alone, you're looking at all of those things. this is not just a danger to the investigation. it is a derek to the very foundation of the republic. >> mark warner, senator, had this to say. he, of course, the ranking member. he said it would be at best irresponsible and at worst potentially illegal for members of congress to use their positions to learn the identity
of an fbi source for the purpose of undermining the ongoing investigation into russian interference in our election." into it could we'll be illegal to do that. the disclosure of the name if it comes from congress could we'll be illegal. i think he's saying if it's done to obstruct the investigation, your congressional immunity may not protect. >> you i would note robert nen nen dez of new jersey was investigated by the fbi while barack obama was president. and when they needed his vote on a lot of stuff, can you imagine fen congress was trying to out sources during that investigation. thank you both. new subpoenas in the mueller probe as the man at the nexus of contacts between the trump campaign and russian interests prepares to testify before the special counsel. first, how the president tried to use the federal government to punish the owner of the "washington post." the story of the blatant abuse of power uncovered next. te to severe rheumatoid arthritis, month after month, the clock is ticking on irreversible joint damage.
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inch an astonishingly blatant abuse of power, the president of the united states attempted to use the power of his office and the power of the federal government to financially injury a company owned by a plan who published journalism the president doesn't like west reporting today that trump has personally been pushing the postmaster general to raise slipping rates on amazon, owned by jeff bezos ho happens to publish "the washington post" and for months as you probably noticed the president has repeatedly insistently linked
amazon to the west calling the "fake west a lobbyist for amazon," sath paper functions as a tax shelter for bezos while also falsely claiming amazon rips off the post office. >> the post office is losing billions of dollars and the taxpayers are paying for that money because it delivers packages for amazon at a vet below cost. >> we now know that was not idle chatter. the president has been working hard behind closed doors to punish bezos financially pushing the post office to double amazon's shipping charges. the postmaster general and trump met at the white house about the matter several times beginning in 2017, most recently four months ago. the meetings have never appeared on trump's public schedule. so far the postmaster general has resisted by explaining in multiple conversations occurring this year and last these arrangements are bound by contracts and must be reviews by a regulatory commission. joining me now maya wiley,
former assistant u.s. attorney. you worked as the council to mayor deblasio, right? >> i did. >> let's say you're in that position advising a mayor. this mayor who fights with the new york press all the time. he comes in and says i'm going to going threaten to revoke the zoning "the new york times." he says i'm so fed up. >> it would more likely be the "new york post." >> you're right. he said we're going to screw them on the zoning. i want to call the zoning commissioner in here. and i want to go after him and change it for the "new york post." what would you say to him? >> before or after i started splutering and fell down on the floor? because it's so outrageous. so outrageous i can't imagine anyone other than donald trump ever actually raising this even as a question of whether he could do it in the first place. usually it doesn't even come up as a question, do i have the power to go after someone i
don't like just because i don't like them or because what they're saying about me as a public official. >> why does that not even come to people's minds. >> there's this thing called the u.s. constitution with this amendment in it, was the first amendment that protected free speech. so number one, it is a constitutional protection. and if you're an elected official, you expect to have the media examine you, critique you, say maybe things but you don't like. it happens every day to every politician across the country no matter what party you're in. >> every level of government everywhere. >> the other thing i find so outrageous about this is not only first of all, if he wanted to do something that was legitimate, he could go to congress. >> absolutely. >> because the u.s. postal service does not operate fully as an independent entity. right? it's a queue quasi governmental institution governed by congress. one of the reasons it has the financial problems it has right
now is because congress required to in 2006, to pay 75 years in advance on all retirement health -- imagine if someone came to you and said you have to take out of your paycheck 75 years worth of retiree health benefits up front, you would be homeless. so that's essentially what they did to the postal service. he could go to congress and say i think the postal service is giving amazon a pass. they should actually look at what they're charging for packages for third parties. that's not what he did. >> that's a great points. in some ways this has been happening in front of him. he calls amazon "the washington post" and he talks about the sweetheart deal which is not true actually. factually in terms of the cost. there's something about the secret meetings of lobbying the postmaster general that looks like he's trying to get away with something. >> when you're talking to the former fbi director about certain investigations. >> that's right. and this is -- >> it's a pattern of behavior.
>> it is a pattern of behavior. i don't want to sound hyperbolic. what's impeachable, what's not. as abuses of power go, this is up there, trying to use your power to screw jeff bezos to punish him for what the free press writes but, that's real serious. >> there is a difference here. he has a history and pattern of using his tweets to attack his enemies and including other corporation he doesn't like or supporting corporations that he does. there is very different because it was a secret meeting because he could have gone to congress if it was a legitimate pos matter and he could you know, there is this thing if jeff bezos should think about called civil action. under givens which is a supreme court case that says you can saw a public official for violating your constitutional rights. >> i think that would be very interesting if they sued him particularly given what we just learned today. still ahead the mueller probe snags two men associated with
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claritin-d relieves 8, including sinus congestion and pressure. claritin-d relieves more. a big development today in the special counsel's collusion probe. andre artemenko, a ukrainian politician aligned with russia is reportedly scheduled to appear under oath before a grand jury on june 1st. today he told politico in at least two interviews with the fbi over the last year, agents asked him about his meetings with congress plen, senators and
representatives of the white house administration. he said the fbi agents asked him a wide circle of questions that touched on russia. he appears to be drawing the special counsel's scrutiny because he could provide a key link between trump associates and russian interests going back to a russian ukraine peace plan he put together last year if approved by the trump administration have given the president a reason to lift sanctions on moscow. we know that that has long been a priority for the kremlin. it was a topic also discussed in the infamous trump tower meeting. "the new york times" rorred in february 2017 that felix sater a guess on the show, a long-time business associate of mr. trump's with connections in russia was willing to help mr. artemenko's proposal reach the white house. sater put him in contact with michael cohen, the president's personal lawyer and fixer and cohen according to the "times" said he would deliver the plan to the white house. cohen told the newspaper he left the plan in flynn's white house office about a week before michael flynn was forced to resign as national security
adviser. say thor to cohen to flynn an interesting chain. cohen would later call the "times" story fake news but mueller's interests suggest otherwise as does his focus on two long-time aides to another p confidant, roger stone. and that story is next. ng trimmr with powerload™ technology. feed the line. push the button. and get back to work. with an industry first, carbon-fiber shaft... lawn care has never been this easy... ...or this powerful. the new ego power+ string trimmer with powerload™ technology. exclusively at the home depot and ego authorized dealers.
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not one but two associates of long-time trump whisperer roger stone have reportedly been subpoenaed by special counsel robert mueller. reuters reporting the subpoena was recently served on john kakanis who has worked as a driver and operative of stone. that's the second subpoena of a stone associate in recent weeks. on wednesday reuters reported mueller had issued a subpoena to jason sullivan stone had hired to work for an independent action committee he set up to support president trump. to talk about what these subpoenas can mean, what else is happening in the mueller probe, attorney lisa greern and former u.s. assistant attorney daniel goldberg. let's start with these
subpoenas. the significance of subpoenas of stone's associates while he hasn't been called to talk to mueller. >> is evidence of a methodical approach by mueller and his prosecutors. you want to gather a lot of evidence and move up the chain. i see this as a back to basics move. we've only gotten peephole visions into what mueller's been up to. but for all the people who say the investigation's gone far afield of its original intent this is evidence to the contrary. this is at the heart of the original intent of getting the special counsel involved. >> what would you tell roger stone if you were advising him about what is likely happening in terms of him and his time in the barrel to coin a phrase? >> the first thing i would tell him is to stop talking to the media. i think every time he goes on television or speaks to the print news, he was quoted in that reuters article as well -- >> he loves it. he can't help himself. >> as this is a media campaign against him. i guarantee you bob mueller is not looking to the media for
evidence in his investigation. but the second thing i would say to him is that you need to start thinking about what's going to happen when you get charged. >> you think that? >> i absolutely do. i think that -- i thought that for a while because -- >> is that because of the facts or because of what we know because of the fact he hasn't been -- that mueller hasn't talked to him yet? >> both. we don't know that many facts. but for example, we know that his right-hand man for a long time, sam nunberg, was called to the grand jury a couple months ago and was -- and nunberg came on this network and explained what all the questions were including about roger stone. >> and explained and explained and explained. >> many times over. we also know about some of the e-mails and the questions as to where stone was and when and whether he met with julian sannage and there's some sketchiness about the documentation he tried to provide in order to show he wasn't there. we know they've been looking at him. and when you know they're being looked at and no one is reaching out to you, that is a bad thing.
that is not a good thing. and he tried to spin it as a good thing, they're not reaching out to me. but you don't want to be the last person they speak to, you want to be someone that's either interviewed early or you want to get out in front of it and go and reach out to them yourself and talk to them and come clean. that's the better course. so waiting until they reach out to you, or may be the case here, they don't reach out to him and they just charge him. >> i just want to say for the record it would be shocking if a guy with literally a richard nixon tattoo on his back were indicted for doing something untoward in a political context. truly a plot fwift. artemenko. the artemenko story, which gets a little complicated but to me what's the key to the nexus here is this is a guy that's floating this peace plan that would essentially mean that russia gets to keep crimea more or less and the u.s. drops the sanctions. and that dropping the sanctions seems like that's been a key thread in all this.
what's your sense of the significance? >> i think this is incredibly significant. the sanctions are the biggest hammer that the united states has against russia and russian oligarchs. it freezes their money and they can't get their money out of russia and that is everything to them. sought fact they had organized and brokered a peace plan through artemenko that would potentially lift sanctions and more importantly that this was brokered to the administration by michael cohen in february of 2017 when, you'll recall, this was after the inauguration and he had not gotten a job in the white house, what is michael cohen doing dropping off a peace plan to the national security adviser if he is completely separate and untethered from the administration? that is the big question. >> and what we see here is for all our attention on michael cohen's other activities, which include paying off people to remain silent, this is a far more serious and significant matter. he claims not to have that much to do with it. i suspect this witness, unlike
roger stone and so many other people in the trump orbit, is not going to use pr as a primary form of defense and may well be forth coming with a lot of information very useful to mueller. >> that's what's interesting to me, is what's in it -- it's not compelled testimony. he's just a ukrainian dude. he doesn't have to come and give testimony, right? >> that's true. well, if he's subpoenaed here and he wants to come back here, then he does have to. >> but you never get to come back through jfk unless you -- >> no tsa pre for you. but the other thing is he may well feel, this is speculation, that he's got facts that are different from the current narrative but the time is right to tell it for personal reasons or other. >> but remember, michael flynn is cooperating. he has given mueller all of the information from his side of things which is on the receiving end of this peace plan. it's not like bob mueller is just asking questions out of thin air here as to what artemenko thinks.
he knows a lot from had flynn has said. >> i'm so glad you raised that because for all of the tweeting and agony and whining on the part of the president and his supporters about the length of this investigation, you've gotten a symmetry here. mueller is silent. but that doesn't mean he has -- doesn't have the upper hand. >> silence is deafening. >> lisa green and daniel goldman, thank you so much. have a good weekend. a reminder tonight, you can get this show, "all in," as a podcast. wherever you are. you can listen to "all in" with chris hayes. that's me. i'm the host. and also, make sure you check out all three episodes of our brand new podcast "why is this happening?" which is a special new project we've been working very hard on. we're proud of it. it features long form deep dive conversations about the big themes and ideas driving this moment in history with really fascinating people. and don't forget to sbriern to that while hire because on tuesday we'll be dropping a brand new podcast with my absolute favorite, favorite, favorite podcast guest in the entire world. that is "all in" for theeng.
"the rachel maddow show" starts right now. good evening, rachel. >> who is your favorite podcast guest? >> you're going to have to subscribe, rachel maddow, and wait until tuesday morning when it drops into your phone. >> but chris! >> the suspense. >> and it's ahead of the weekend. >> i know. >> well, that's flabbergasting. well done, my friend. thank you. much appreciated. and thank you for joining us. happy to have you here with us on this friday thiet. a lot to get to tonight. the mass shooting today at a texas high school about 35 miles from houston has thus far claimed ten lives. another ten people are injured. the 17-year-old suspect in the mass murder is in custody. he's said to have used two guns in the killing, a .38-caliber revolver, so i ahaa handgun, ano reportedly a shotgun. over the course of the day we've had mixed reports about other people besides the shooter being sought or questioned by police in conjunction with these mu