tv MSNBC Live With Alex Witt MSNBC June 17, 2018 9:00am-10:00am PDT
pg&e will come out and mark your gas and electric lines so you don't hit them when you dig. call 811 before you dig, and make sure that you and your neighbors are safe. that's our show today. "am joy" is back next saturday, 10:00 a.m. eastern. up next, alex witt has the latest. want to wish not only your dad, but my husband, my brother, all of the dads there. >> my brother. how about studio dad. he brought me coffee. all the fabulous dads, hello to you. good-bye to you, my friend. good day. alex witt. high noon in the east, 9:00 a.m. on the west. roger stone and the russian. a report on the long time con if
i dan-- confidant. and the plan to stop accept operating children at the border. >> it is unjust, unamerican, and it is unbiblical. >> zero tolerance. i don't think you have to justify it. >> families told me they didn't know about this policy when they left central america. >> some adults use children to gain access to the border. >> this is unchecked, fight or flight, constant surge of hormones disrupting brain development. >> and the president's legal team takes a turn in the mueller probe. first, the big story this hour, trump confidant, roger stone, admitting to meeting with russian contact for dirt on hillary clinton. "the washington post" reports stone met with a russian national in may of 2016 who allegedly offered damaging information about clinton. joining me, one of the co-authors of that "the washington post" article.
awfully good to see you. been awhile. let's get to it. what did you learn? >> this is one of those only in florida, only in the 2016 presidential campaign tales. we learned that a man who said that his name was henry greenberg approached michael caputo, a communications official for the president donald trump campaign, and said that he had dirt on hillary clinton and caputo went to roger stone. roger stone, the confidant of donald trump, master of the dark arts of politics, and they set up a meeting. >> but you wrote that stone and caputo, have to remind people he is a trump campaign official, didn't disclose this to federal regulators. do we know why or how significant it is? >> it could be a sticky point for both of them. they both testified to the house
intelligence committee that's looking into allegations of possible coordination of the russians with the trump campaign, and both of them say that the meeting for them was so insignificant, and that the suggestion that this man was able to provide dirt on hillary clinton was so implausible that they had simply forgotten about the meeting, so we'll have to leave it to people that look at that and judge the credibility of that statement, whether or not they believe caputo and stone really forgot about this. >> can i ask you, it appears in this article neither you or your co-author spoke to stone and caputo. first of all, did you, and why did they want this story out now? >> we both spoke with caputo and with stone. they spoke to us on the record. they spoke to us multiple times. i think one of the main reasons why they were willing to talk to
us about this is because of their contention that the man who approached them might be an informant for the fbi who was sent to set them up and compromise president trump in some way, at that time candidate trump, and roz helderman and another colleague of mine found interesting data about this man. there are documents and paper trail that show that he has said in official court records that he was an fbi informant for 17 years. that's a paper that's filed in the court and that he said was true under penalty of perjury. >> if i remember correctly, was it 2013 he stopped working with the fbi according to papers? >> he said that he had stopped
working with the fbi and we also spoke with him, my colleague roz helderman spoke with the man now we learned used multiple names in the past, we lened is a ru natnal. denied that he was sent to this meeting by the fbi or by anyone else. but importantly he confirmed that the meeting did take place and his story matches roger stone's story in very key details right down to the wording of how roger stone reacted to the suggestion that donald trump should pay $2 million for this information. both men essentially said the same words. donald trump won't pay for anything like that. >> i certainly remember that. why did nothing come of this
meeting? >> roger stone says nothing came of this meeting because it request.ike a ridiculous he didn't think the person was credible. in fact, we were able to review text messages between stone and caputo in which caputo says how crazy is the russian? and roger stone says the meeting is a waste of time. >> a waste of time because this henry greenberg would not give up anything he knew unless he were paid? so that's why he didn't divulge anything? >> we'll leave it up to you to determine that based on the reading of the text messages, but what roger stone has told us is that he just did not think this guy had anything to provide them and particularly that he wasn't interested in money changing hands in order for information to be given to the campaign. >> so a couple hours ago i spoke
with joyce vance that suggested this is a serious matter. can you put that in context with the mueller probe? >> we think it is a serious matter for this reason. michael caputo has told us on the record that he was asked about this meeting, about this contact when he was interviewed by the prosecutors in the special counsel investigation. that makes it a big deal. >> okay. and you also reached out to this russian national, henry greenberg, right? >> yes. >> what did he say? >> he initially denied everything, said that no meeting had taken place and said that we had false information. that then led to a series of text messages that he sent to my colleague, roz helderman, and he in these messages began to confirm all of our reporting and
confirmed much of what roger stone was saying about the meeting, but there's one key difference. greenberg who by the way has go bynother name, he is a russian national who has been coming back and forth between the two countries for many years, he says that there was another man, a second man at the meeting, a ukrainian man who worked for the clinton foundation and that he was angry about being fired by the clinton foundation and that it was the second man who did most of the talking and had the dirt. roger stone says there was no second man. >> so who to believe? >> well, we spoke to the clinton foundation. they tell us they've never had a ukrainian man with that first name working for them, so you can weigh that against what roger stone is saying and what henry greenberg is saying,
decide who you want to believe. >> it is extraordinary reporting. we're going to dig into it further. i am sure not the last we've heard of it. thank you for bringing it to us, this developing story. >> great to be with you again. >> thanks so much. meanwhile, new reaction from the trump camp to this. let's go to white house correspondent kelly o'donnell. another good day to you. what can you tell us? >> reporter: the reaction comes from the president's personal lawyer outside the white house, rudy guiliani, who was asked about it in a tv appearance. what he laid out is a fascinating description of their reporting, which appears very thorough, and lays out a very compelling detour in the long running russian investigation we hadn't known about. it is critical if michael caputo and roger stone who submitted to interviews with the special counsel team and with congressional investigators, there's a requirement to be truthful, and it is a violation of law if you're not. the fact they didn't disclose
this meeting could be critical, and then as he explained if there's a way toassert, they didn't remember it, that might be their cover. also interesting at the same time we find allies of the president and the president himself talking about a witch hunt, referring to a setup of the president to have them outline this idea that an fbi informant, that they describe, was trying to draw them in. we have to see how that all shakes out. it is from pages of a spy novel turned real life. so today when asked about this at first rudy guiliani asserted the president didn't know. when pressed, had they actually discussed it, guiliani said he hadn't specifically discussed it, but here is how he responded. >> was president trump aware of this meeting? >> i doubt it. i certainly didn't know about it. it's news to me. just read it in "the washington post." it seems to me, however, whatever the recollection, differing recollections about
this, still gets resolved with the fact that stone did nothing about it, came to the conclusion according to the it was a waste of time. he and greenberg came to the conclusion it was of time. i can't imagine anything got back to then presidential candidate that was of any substance. >> reporter: of course, it does raise another suspicion about interactions between people in the president's orbit and russian nationals. that's the basis for the investigation. that's what prosecutors have been pursuing. is there anything to that. here is another instance, people who were very active in the campaign, michael caputo, a florida based spokesperson for the trump campaign, roger stone, long time associate of the president, informally part of the campaign, and then on the outside. for them to have contact with a russian national is certainly notable. and the impact will have to be decided over time. the president also tweeted today about "the washington post" and
one wonders if it has something to do with this story. talks about "the washington post" employees want to go on strike ball games bezos and amazon founder jeff bezos isn't paying them enough. i think a long strike would be a great idea. employees would get more money and we would get rid of fake news for an extended period of time. is wapo a registered lobbyist. striking in many ways for a president to comment about a company in that way and call for getting rid of fake news. that's the president's tweet. what's behind it is unclear, certainly that "the washington post" story today is a head line grabber. alex? >> that tweet, i wish i could comment, i am going to refrain from doing so. kelly o'donnell at the white house. thank you for that. also new, the white house again trying to justify the administration pol separating children from parents once they cross the u.s., mexican border. here is what kellyanne conway said in an interview with chuck
todd earlier. >> this is a perilous journey for many of these children, and if people really cared about them, we would figure out a way to get funding to expand the centers and to close loopholes. >> you don't have to be doing this. >> if i commit a crime a put in jail, my four children are separated from their mother because we don't have a policy. why would you want children in jail with the parents? >> as the presipares to meet with republican leaders tuesday, democrats are calling on their colleagues to put politics to the side and demand the president put an end to this policy. >> their election year strategy to win the mid term elections in 2018 and that is keep their jobs, right, is to be as mean, as vicious, as cruel as you can be to immigrants. they can say to their base voters look what we're doing, look how we're keeping them down. vote for us, we're standing up. >> it is cruel, inhumane, it is
on all of us. this is u.s. policy. all of us must stand up and own it, not relinquish our agency in this. >> and we're getting a firsthand look at what it is like for those children as they try to cope with the situation most don't even understand. a father's day rally is set to take place this afternoon. in the past few days you talked with a flnumber of families and children. what a hearing? >> reporter: a lot of fear, alex, and confusion. when these people fled violence in central america a month or two ago, they had no idea about the zero tolerance policy. they make this dangerous journey here to finally reach what many call their dream, you know, the united states of america, thinking they're going to find relief, only to find out that they will be prosecuted if they cross illegally and their children yanked from their very arms. there's a lot of confusion also
for asylum seekers. those immigrants who turn themselves legally in ports of entry and claim to be wanting to seek political asylum, i spoke to one mother, 21 years old, holding her 11 month old baby. took her a month and a half to get here, only to find out that the guidelines for asylum changed because jeff sessions said gang violence isn't justification for asylum any more. i was the one who broke the news to her about the change in the guidelines. i want to play a little bit of that heartbreaking interview for you now. >> you have known they were separating children from parents, would you have come to seek asylum? >> no. >> i wouldn't have come. i would have gone somewhere
this. there's a couple of immigration votes this week. the bill would allow families to be detained together and paul ryan last week indicated that he is not a fan of the trump administration policy of separating them. the problem is, alex, there's a lot of finger pointing on immigration. you're not getting a deal on sweeping legislation before the election, so these bills which are going to be voted on the house floor are going down, they don't have the votes to pass. that's not going to be the solution. the question is will congressional republicans press the administration to make policy changes that they adopted in the spring. >> i want to play now something that kellyanne conway said, something else she said about policy of separation. here she is responding on a more personal note. >> as a mother, as a catholic, as somebody who has a conscience, wouldn't say the junk somebody said, apparently, allegedly, i will tell you nobody likes this policy. you saw the president on camera, he wants this to end.
congress has to act. >> he can end it on his own. >> chuck, congress passed a law that it is a crime. this is a congressional law for many years. this is a crime to enter this country illegally. if they don't like the law, they should change it. >> but the law is not why families are being separated right now, how firm is the president on keeping this policy in place? >> well, what's striking about what kellyanne conway said and what's striking about blame shifting that president trump is trying to do is that, you know, if no one likes this policy, they can just stop doing it. they're in control of this. but it is not true that no one likes the policy. it is clear some people in the administration seem to. for example, steven miller spoke to "new york times" this weekend defending it. >> right. he did. he did support this, absolutely. let's see what happens tuesday, bob, right? we have the president meeting with house republicans to discuss immigration legislation.
walk us through what's on the table, what you think the white house is trying to leverage out of this. >> i think that congressional republicans are going to say listen, we n to focus on the economy. we're facing a tough re-election period. mitch mcconnell said this will be a hurricane, whether category three, four, five remains to be seen. i think they're going to tell him listen, we have to get this immigration issue off the table and come to some type of agreement where this is not dominating headlines for the next several months and actually fix the problem. the problem is democrats and republicans don't agree pretty much on anything on immigration. it will have to be the administration and republicans who are nervous about losing their jobs have to lean on the president to alter his policy. the zero tolerance policy is popular with the republican base, and you need the base to come out in november. so that's where the rub is. >> rosie, what do you think of what bob said, do you agree? >> as far as mid term
implications, what's clear is that a lot of images and stories coming out of the situation are extremely heartbreaking and the democrats are, you know, calling a lot of attention to them. and i think that it could potentially be -- there's a difference between primary and general ele this could be a problem for the republicans if this keeps dragging on. bob pointed out it doesn't look like the situation is coming to a close particularly soon. >> all right. rosie, bob, thank you so much for weighing in. i appreciate that. we're going to pick up on this, images of children, crying, taken from parents' arms. new reaction ahead. ♪
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seeit is zero tolerance. it is a crime to come across illegally, children get separated. i hate to say it, he is enforcing the law. we have human traffickers, huge business from central america, you're going to exacerbate the problem. morality isn't the law. they're criminals when they come across. >> those same tough veterans are upset when they see the babies, they're like why can't you all get along and do something. i think the president has to be very careful to not overplay his hand on this. people know this is not a democratic policy. and they expect us to do something. and if he keeps blocking us doing something or keeps this policy, we're going to keep seeing these children, it is
going to hurt him and it is going to hurt republicans. >> the view of president trump's immigration policy from both sides of the aisle as congressional democrats embark on trips to the border to get a closer look at how children are being separated from parents. joining me, a democrat from arizona, member of armed services committee. welcome back to the broadcast. i know your state is there on the frontlines of the crisis. have you seen any evidence that this policy is effective? >> first of all, thank you for having me. happy father's day to the fathers out there today. right now, i don't know what's happening on the arizona border separations because this is such a new policy that the trump administration has implemented that they aren't being properly talking to us, not giving congress oversight. they don't know how to treat the separations. they're not allowing kids, brothers and sisters to hug each other. some of the kids are just crying
in the centers alone and employees, hhs employees aren't allowed to console them. you have kids just crying and trying to console themselves. there's so much chaos that this administration has caused that this is why you see actions being taken by democrats this weekend, to try to force some information not of this administration. >> it was a heartbreaking article about the head of the american pediatric association watches a two-year-old sobbing pounding her fist, no caretaker can touch the child. part of the process and policy that you have. we have house speaker nancy pelosi, leading a delegation to the border tomorrow. first of all, are you joining her? what do you expect to come of that trip? >> i will not be joining her. me and a lot of colleagues in different parts of the country are taking different actions to highlight the situation. what we're trying to find out is what is the policy, why is this
occurring, who are these -- families are being separated. how are we tracking separation of kids, how are we going to reunite men and women with their kids. all of these simple questions the administration is not answering. and to highlight the problem, they're trying to make this an issue about the border and border security. these are people showing up at the border legally to ask for asylum and being separated which is unprecedented. the idea that are families crossing in the middle of the desert is a bunch of . it is another way for the president to confuse people and make people look lawless when in fact they're trying to do it in a lawful manner. >> the president is certainly putting his unique spin on this, blaming the democrats. >> he is lying. it is not spin, he is lying. >> the moral question of what's going on, the welfare of the children, with regard to the ill
legality of this. >> what we are doing is inhumane. the fact that we as a country allow separation of kids from their parents without any recourse of how we're going to put famil back together in the name of holding them hostage to get this stupid border wall, i hope people understand what it looks like ten years, twenty years from now, we have to explain that yes, the united states again imprisoned people, again separated families. this is disgusting. most americans, i think most americans understand what we're doing now is something we should be ashamed of. >> you know, jeh johnson says the obama administration deported a million people to enforce the immigration laws. he said poverty and violence in honduras, guatemala, el salvador has to be addressed to address the flow of asylum seekers. listen to what he said.
>> as long as underlying conditions exist in these three countries and they're bad, as bad as war torn areas on earth, we're going to bang our head against the wallealing with this problem. we started investing in central america in 2016, $750 million, amounts in subsequent years have been going down. needs to go the opposite direction. >> do you agree with that, is that what needs to be done? if so, what can congress do about getting aid to these three countries? >> we need a marshall plan for central america. central america has a wealth of potential. in terms of what is happening in all of latin america, that's the last area of latin america that needs to be stabilized from an economic and political sense. also, we can do minimal steps. the trump administration forgets they shut down opportunity for people to seek asylum in their home countries, so they're now doing the travel up here, and then the administration itself
is trying to force them from even crossing the border to seek asylum. there's a lot of other things this admintration could be doing to stem this flow. instead, what they want to do is use human flow of people running away from violence, seeking shelter here, they want to use it as leverage, as hostage to again fulfill this stupid border wall which was supposed to be paid for by mexico. now they're holding thousands of families hostage so the american taxpayer can pay for this mistake. >> want to veer off topic before i let you go on north korea. the president said he may call kim jong-un this weekend. let's listen to that. >> i'm going to speak to people in north korea and to my people over in north korea. i have a good relationship with kim jong-un. that's a very important thing. i can now say well, we have a problem. i told him, i gave him a very direct number. he can now call me if he has any
difficulty. i can call him. >> how comfortable are you with this new relationship? >> i think it is important that world leaders talk to each other. there's nothing wrong with that. i worry that the president is being naive. dictators like this are used to manipulating or coercing relationships, and the president himself has a tendency to read what he wants to read into things and out of people. and when dealing with international relations, you don't deal on feelings and you don't deal on whether or not you trust each other. you actually create a structure to actually enfce and reauthorize everything that you're doing. that's not what this president is doing. it is a naive manner. he should hand this off to experts at the state department, continue having contact with dictator of north korea, in no time at all believe he is your friend. that's not how things work when
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welcome back, everyone. i am alex witt in new york. 35 past the hour. here is what we're monitoring for you. new questions about the vast private earnings of jared kushner and ivanka trump as serving as unpaid advisers. financial disclosures say they took home at least $82 million in 2017. joining me now, adjunct professor. big welcome to you. should it beurprise they made that much money working in the white house? >> it's a big number, but how much money did the president make last year? how much money did anybody named trump make because we still haven't seen the tax returns. >> that's a good point with regard to the president. specifically jared and ivanka, are they profiting from the p presidency? some holdings have foreign ties. is there a benefit from them
being in the white house and close to the president financially speaking? >> absolutely. absolutely. when the president went to china, i believe one of the things that happened was that ivanka got some permission to do more licensing in china, and that wasn't -- it was helpful that she was there with the president. and jared kushner's family company is now maybe going to get rescued from a very difficult situation with a skyscraper they own in manhattan, going to get maybe a bailout loan because jared kushner is the son-in-law of the president. these things operate overtly and -- out in the open and somewhat less well publicized, but in every way they've benefitted from being children and son-in-law of the president. not that that's bad exactly but that whole conflict of interest and not having to divest
anything, that's important. >> so couple of points. is it naive for those who say otherwise, like no, they already had their businesses, they're just keeping them up, keeping them going. is there any direct evidence to prove a cause, effect relationship? >> again until we see tax returns, we can't really know. certainly there's been encouragement of foreign dignitaries to stay at trump businesses, to stay at the trump hotel in washington. that's very clear. and the trump administration used opportunities to highlight trump golf courses, mar-a-lago, all sorts of trump businesses have been given kind of a free ride of publicity during his presidency. the president never lost an opportunity during the campaign and while in office to publicize them. >> we should say, article said the president keeps track of those who stay at the trump
international hotel in d.c. there's a point there. what about the optics of all of this, is it likely to be something that jared and ivanka would be concerned about? >> they vice president looked like they thought it was a problem so far. the whole idea that there's any difficulty, there's nothing to see here, folks, that's been the attitude. >> okay. glenda blair, appreciate it, good luck with the book. >> thank you. was there a clear strategy on the talk on the white house lawn? and next hour, what happens in a hearing for migrants being held at the border.
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new today, former fbi director andrew mccabe set to testify before the senate judiciary committee regarding how senior fbi officials hands eld the investigation of clinton's e-mail server. this comes as trump's allies used the inspector general report to criticize the fbi. >> they weaponize the fbi against donald trump. this report is shocking on so many levels. the attorney general of the united states, jeff sessions, good friend of mine, on monday, he's got to put a special prosecutor on this. >> joining me, former staenassi for counter intelligence and
msnbc national security analyst. welcome to you this father's day as well. thank you for joining us. do you think the actions of the fbi in this case warrants a special prosecutor? >> i think the ig report, alex, made it quite clear that there was no bias found, no impact on where we are now. no political motivation behind actions and decisions. the ig report clearly found found errors in judgment, including director comey's judgment, disturbing communications between some fbi personnel, but americans need to understand this is not a fatal flaw to where we are now to the special counsel investigation, and it certainly doesn't merit appointment of yet another special counsel. >> how do you think james comey ultimately looks coming out of this? you say it doesn't look that good for him. give me specifics. where did he go wrong?
>> well, so the ig report laid out q well findings that are consistent with what jim comey portrayed in his book. we have someone who as the ig said is motivated not by political bias but by his sense of morals and integrity. but to a fault. even the ig report goes as far as to say that jim comey believed at times he was the person, perhaps the only person that could make the right call at the right time. distrustful of the attorney general at the time, loretta lynch, he was distrustful of what might happen in other parts of washington, and believed he needed to have that press conference with great fanfare, announced no one should prosecute hillary clinton. they found flaws in that, he forgot he had a boss, a boss in the attorney general of the united states, calling jim comey insubordinate. >> your title says a lot.
do you believe agents are capable of slanting an investigation because of political bend, and even if they aren't, should they be beyond suspicion? >> so no one should be beyond suspicion because if we start thinking that people are beyond suspicion, we're going to run into abuses and exploitations. here's the thing. the fbi, the beauty of the fbi, the fbi strength lies in 100 years of remaining apolitical and professional in their investigations. it is a bureaucracy. while we joke about all of the problems with bureaucracies in washington, there's a beauty to bureaucracy, which is that it is filled with rules, protocol and regulation. if you follow them, you get a professional product each and every time. the ig faults the fbi and specifically director comey for veering from protocol and regulations this time around because they thought they wer facing unique or special circumstance.
when you do that, you get into trouble. that's what happened with the ig report. >> before i let you go, can you weigh in on the new report from "the washington post" about roger stone, confidant of the president and campaign official prior to the election having had another meeting with a russian national. how does this weigh in the big picture of things? >> this is a fascinating piece and bears watching. we're up to at least 11 people associated with the trump campaign that now admit they met with russians. yet we keep hearing there's no collusion. roger stone says i forgot to mention to congress that i did have a meeting in florida with a russian. i am recalling it now. i think maybe it was an fbi sting. let me tell you something, you don't forget flying to south florida, sitting at a restaurant, meeting with a russian offering you dirt on hillary clinton. you simply don't forget it. the fact it was in sunny isles,
florida, a place i worked for five years in the miami division, filled with russian organized crime figures and former russian intelligence officers, there's a real blurring between russian organized crime and russian intelligence there. you meet with this guy. there's a significant disparity in that caputo who set up the meeting said there's a second person, alexi doing the talking, stone says there wasn't. we have a major issue. for some reason stone decided not to share this, caputo decided not to share this, now we're hearing about it. >> therere some inconsistencies that warrant investigation. thanks for joining me. appreciate it. president trump's spectacle was political theater friday, did it give a boost to his base? that's next.
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but then something happened. we had to deal with spam, fake news, and data misuse. that's going to change. from now on, facebook will do more to keep you safe and protect your privacy. because when this place does what it was built for, then we all get a little closer. new insight into president trump's free wheeling q&a session on friday. the friday swung quickly between fact and fiction. putting our fact checkers to the test, here are a few of his most noteworthy remarks. >> there was no collusion, no obstruction. the ig report yesterday went a long way to show that.
and i think that the letter investigation has been totally -- >> plan fort hmanafort has noth with our campaign. i feel badly for a lot of those people. general flynn has lost miss hois his house, his life. some people say he lied and some say he didn't lie. i hate the children being taken away. the democrats have to change their law. that is their law. >> let's bring in howard dean and also former governor of vermont. big welcome to you both. susan, to you first. i want to be clear about what president trump said that does not match up with the truth, that the ig report was not about the russia investigation, so it made no conclusions with collusion or obstruction. paul manafort worked on president trump's campaign for 144 days, part of it as his campaign manager. president trump himself previously said that mike flynn
lied. and the zero tolerance policy behind the separation of children and parents was put in place by the truadministration,t by democrats. but my question is, what do you the president was trying to accomplish, was he trying to feed his base what they want to hear and if so how do you think it played out with them? >> first i think you were very generous in how you explained this because the fact is that these were bold face lies. now, a lot of people question, you know, does he know when he's lying or telling the truth. i think the purpose of the press conference was we are no longer talking about the new york attorney general's claim that he broke state law and filed the lawsuit against the president. we're no longer talking about the failures of the north korean summit. and he changed to, yes, talk to his base but again to muddy the waters as much as possible. >> again that new york state ig, you're right, that has come out
of the headlines, the lawsuit filed against the trump foundation. howard, good you sdid you see a behind the impromptu q&a session? >> i agree with susan. for whatever reason, thises from has no problem being a liar. there is no nicay to say this anymore. he is a liar. and that is not good in the president of the united states. george w. bush did a lot of things democrats don't like, but nobody thought that george w. bush was a liar. maybe some of the people around him were. but this is a president who does not command the respect of the large majority of american people. you can't behave like this. you can't cater to the very worst instincts in human beings and that's what this president is doing. >> i can't even count the number of people who have been on this network who said that the president is a liar, yet, susan,
he seems to be immune to any sort of penalty for it. his base believes him. >> they believe him up to a point or they really don't care about what he is lying. let's not forget when president trump was elected, on electio night eve, we knew the next president, whether it be hillary clinton or donald trump, was not trusted nor liked by the majority of the american public. so we walked into this knowing that president trump most people did not trust him. they continue not to trust him. on the campaign trail when he would speak to his supporters and said you really think you'll get mexico to pay for the wall? like nah, but we like where it's going, we like his fight against immigrati immigration. so they are more accepting because they kind of you knew what they were getting already. >> howard, i'm curious, what do you think is ultimately behind the president's lies? i'll just call it for what it is. is it because he is doing this intentionally, it is a calculated way of speaking, way of positioning things, or is it
because he is just -- he doesn't understand would the truth is and he doesn't know what the facts are because he doesn't read and study it? >> i think it is both. i think he often makes mistakes because he didn't know what toee facts are. he thinks he can lie his way out of this or maybe he can. his business life, he often didn't pay his subcontractor, he almost always stiffed the banks and law firms. this is donald trump. will this is who he is and now he is president of the most powerful country in the world, soon not to be if he continues this behavior and if he stays in office. >> howard, susan, thank you both and howard happy father's day, my friend. >> thank you. at the top of the hour, jackie speier on all the new developments in the mueller probe.
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