tv All In With Chris Hayes MSNBC June 23, 2018 12:00am-1:00am PDT
for pruitt's e-mail account. >> that's our broadcast and brian will be back on monday. thank you for being with us and good night from nbc headquarters in new york. tonight on "all in" -- >> like it or not, these aren't our kids. >> the chaos and the cruelty continue. >> it's a prison-like internment site. >> tonight as the president sinks his own immigration bill, new confusion about reuniting the families donald trump ripped apart, and the trump official with zero experience responsible for caring for separated children. >> it's a whole big con job. >> and is michael cohen about to flip on mr. trump? >> i'll do anything to protect mr. trump. >> why comedian tom arnold says it may have already happened. >> donald trump does not care about him, he does not care about his family, and it's over.
>> "all in" starts right now. good evening from new york, i'm chris hayes. u.s. immigration policy is in chaos thanks solely to donald trump after the humanitarian crisis he initiated which threw every federal agency involved from the department of justice to homeland security to health and human services to now the pentagon into pandemonium. as over 2,000 children were for ostensibly no reason ripped from their parents and sent to facilities around the country, scattered to the four winds, and there are still no plans for reuniting them. today with a casual tweet, the president then blew up plans by congressional republicans to pass an immigration bill. there's no coordination among agencies with confusion along the border as officials try to figure out what they're supposed to do now. the only thing consistent about the president's immigration policy is, frankly, its cruelty. "the washington post" is reporting on the difficulty of reuniting children with their parents.
stay tuned, that reporter of that story will join us later. even as homeland security officials claim that 500 children have been reunited sie may, it's unclear how many of those children are still being detained with their families. a new report from "time" magazine reveals that u.s. navy is preparing to build, quote, temporary and austere tent cities to house, listen to this, 25,000 immigrants, plus more camps for a possible total of 119,000 people. one local television station reporting on a site currently under consideration noted the kelso, arkansas, site is about 60 miles away from pine bluff and about two miles away from the rohwer relocation center where more than 8,000 japanese americans were interned between 1942 and 1945. one senator who toured a tent camp that has already been set up and is operational in tornillo, texas, did not mince words. >> well, i think it's an internment site with tents.
it's a prison-like internment site. >> meanwhile between lying about his own policy and blaming everyone but himself, donald trump has been hammering on the idea that congress must pass new immigration legislation. and then today literally as house republicans were working on exactly that, trump tweeted, republicans should stop wasting their time on immigration until after we elect more senators and congressmen/women in november. dems are just playing games and have no intention of doing anything to solve this decades old problem. we can pass great legislation after the red wave. ileana ross layton of florida is retiring from her seat which gives her the freedom to honestly describe what it's been like working with this president. >> it's such a schizoid policy making by tweets that what you say on monday may not last until friday. you just fear that tweet in the morning saying, oh, no, how many are you going to -- how many
policies will you undo by the day's end? because the day's not over. heck, it's only -- it's not even noon yet. how many times can he change his mind? or moron what happened today on capitol hill, i'm joined by republican congressman robert pitinger of north carolina. congressman, do you agree with your colleague, that it's chaos, the president threw a grenade up to capitol hill today? >> i think the president has inherited a chaotic lack of leadership that was demonstrated for several decades. you know, president clinton, mrs. clinton, president obama talked about the issues related to illegal immigrants coming into this country, that they have got to address it. nobody had the courage to do anything about it. >> congressman, am i correct that in 2013 there was a bipartisan piece of legislation that passed the senate by a margin of 68-32 the president endorsed. >> yes. >> am i correct that the republicans -- wait a second. am i correct that the republican
speaker of the house did not allow that to come to a floor vote despite the fact it had majority votes? >> what we do have was a catch and release policy -- >> but i just want to make sure we're on the same page about the facts of the matter. in 2013 you agree there was a senate bipartisan bill that did pass 68-32. >> l's get on the same page realities. >> you do agree with that, right? >> history is 1997, judge flores created this whole issue separating families and today we have a president who's trying to address the problem. chris, let's look at the reality of what's happened as a result of open borders an catch and release. 15,000 people died in 2016 because of heroin overdose. that is -- those are real people. i had a little girl down the street from our house of the she got caught up in all of this. she was a sweet girl, played the violin in concerts. >> it is an absolute travesty. can we just -- i'm sorry, that
is horrible and what's happening in opioids is horrible. >> we have open borders and what's happened to real families. >> let's just establish. you said no one had the courage to take it on, but i just want -- all i want -- i really just want to agree on the facts of t$e matter so we can enter them into evidence. you do acknowledge in 2013 there was a bill that passed 68-32 in the senate. i am not making that up, correct? >> yes. do you acknowledge president obama had catch and release, that we have open borders? we have individuals -- there's 250,000 illegal immigrants just in texas alone. >> congressman -- >> who are affected. that state was 675,000 criminal acts. >> wait a second. >> these are real people being affected because of the policies of president obama. we're trying to stop that. >> congressman, you keep talking about the problems of president obama. the president of the united states is donald trump. >> and athat's what we're trying
to fix today, sir. >> what are you trying to fix? you keep saying fix. >> open borders, catch and release. >> do you think the united states currently has open borders? >> absolutely there's open borders. >> have you ever tried to cross the border, sir? >> yes, sir. i'm from texas, son. okay? >> yes. >> i know what it's like in texas. >> let me ask you this, congressman. let me ask you this, congressman. what does the customs and board protection say about family apprehensions this year versus last year. are they up or down? >> well, they're discouraging coming because they see a president that means business. >> are they up or down? >> they're down because they see a president that means business. what we've got to do is fix the border. 90% of all the heroin that's coming across into the united states, chris, comes from mexico. >> congressman -- >> 15,000 people lost their lives -- >> that has nothing to do -- >> it has everything to do. that's what we're trying to fix. >> with the children that are currently -- the heroin, sir, is not coming from 11-year-old hoan children who are being taken across the river with their mother.
>> chris, i have ten grandchildren. these kids are precious. i had one of my grandkids, 9-year-old boy in washington with me today. >> thanderful. >> precious child, okay. >> that's great. i'm glad he was with you. >> yes, sir. i am too. but those children are a result of families wanting to come to this country. >> correct. >> if you come to this country and you cross illegally, then you're responsible to our laws. we're a country that's a rule of law. >> so you think they should be separated? >> no. it's a bad ruling by a judge in 1997. >> no, the ruling does not require it. you just said rule of law. i want to ask you one last question here. do you know what the federal penalty, what class of crime it is for first-time illegal entry, which is what 91% of these people are being prosecuted for? >> it's a misdemeanor. >> it's a misdemeanor. let me ask you this. do you know what the federal class of crime it is to materially omit information on your sf-86 is? >> i don't have that but what i do know -- >> i can tell you, congressman, it's a felony. if i ask you this, if you believe in the rule of law --
congressman, if you live in the rule of law -- >> 16 years ago, my daughter was hit by a drunk driver. a latino that came across from mexico. came sailing through a red light and hit my daughter. if i hadn't been in a position to buy her a very safe, good car, my daughter would have been seriously hurt or worse, okay? this was an illegal immigrant who was totally inebriated who had come across our border. we need to protect and secure our country. thank god for a president who gets it. nobody else preceding him had the guts and the courage to jump in where the sharks are. you and others are going after him every day because he is in an area that nobody wants to get into. it is not an easy issue to resolve. there are terrible byproducts. >> congressman, thank you for that. the history and the fact of the matter is george w. bush and barack obama tried to sign comprehensive immigration reform. thank you very much.
>> you're welcome. >> for more on the chaos stemming from the trump family separation policy, i'm joined by deputy director of the aclu's immigrants rights project and attorney natalia at the texas civil rights project. all right. where do things stand right now? you guys have attorneys on the front line of child separation right now. the first question is has it stopped on the front line of the processing? are they no longer doing the separations? >> it appears that they are no longer doing separations. >> that's good. >> as of today. >> so as of today, that part of it is not happening. >> i believe so. >> okay. now, the second part, you were in court today before a federal judge. >> yes. >> about your suit -- what is your lawsuit trying to do at this point? >> yeah. what we told the judge today was -- and when i said we need an injunction very quickly to reunite the 2,300 kids who are still separated. i asked if he would issue that injunction tonight because the children are suffering every day.
he unfortunately has asked for more briefing but we remain hopeful. i want to make one thing clear, the separations may have stopped today for a little bit. we don't actually think the executive order means we don't need an injunction to stop separations going forward. the reason is because there are explicit loopholes in the executive order. so we have asked the judge to continue with our case, to lay down constitutional standards for when a separation can occur in the future. but the immediate problem is getting these little children back to their parents. >> did you talk in federal court today about the reunification process? >> we did. >> what did the federal government say in a court of law about what their plan is? >> this is the first time they have had to talk on the record in a formal setting. the judge pointedly said what's the strategy, what's the plan for getting these kids back? the lawyer said there is no plan. we're just going to do what we've continued to do. >> no plan. >> no plan. >> what are you finding as you attempt with your clients to get
people reunited with their kids? >> that there's no plan. this is chaos resulting from an irresponsible, abrupt decision to separate parentfrom their children. it's unprecedented and the people that have been separated from their children, these parents, have no right to an attorney. one of the things we've been scrambling to do is get them a lawyer so that they can have help in their immigration case and in finding their child, being reunified with them. but that's not an automatic process that is given to these parents that were separated from their children. i mean this is -- the government had no plans to reunify these parents. there's no infrastructure in place for them to be reunified. >> is that clear to both of you, that the government -- they had plans to do this, we know that. we had a memo back from a year ago. they had plans to do family separation. they had plans for the capacity. they started putting out rfps for contracts. is it clear to you they had zero plans to reunite?
>> i think that's right and you're hitting the right point. this is not a bureaucratic snafu. this was an intentional plan to separate and purposely no plan to reunite. >> really? you really think that? >> i don't mean necessarily permanent separation, but no plan for immediate reunification, so now when they claim they were ending family separation, of course there's no plan to reunite because they never -- when i say no plan to reunite, no strategy for doing it quickly now that we see how much harm these children are suffering. you know, and i -- >> no, i also want to know what happens next, right? so there's the question about how to reunite these parents and their families, you're working on that. what happens going forward? they want to get out of flores so they can do family detention and put 20,000 people in navy bases and tent camps? is that going to happen? >> i certainly hope not. i mean it's absolutely absurd to think that the federal government -- to know that the
federal government is asking that parents and children, innocent children, be locked up in facilities that have no requirements to meet under state regulations for detaining a child. that's what the government has asked for, for these families to be detained together moving forward and that they not have any licensing requirements, meet any standards, permits, nothing. just do it. >> one other thing i said to the judge is we need the government to submit a list of every parngt and child that's been separated and for the government to immediately within one week tell the parents how to contact their children. that's the most horrendous thing. the parents don't know where the children are. >> and you're asking a court to rule and make that requirement. >> we have to. >> because in the absence, the government is not doing it. >> absolutely. >> lee, natalia, thank you. lee was just a guest on our new podcast where we talk in depth about that aclu lawsuit on family separation policy. you can finding that wherever you get your podcasts.
comedian tom arnold said michael cohen might flip on the president of the united states. tonight meet the plan the president put in charge of the thousands of children the government took into custody and who has no plans in place to reunite them with their parents. that's in two minutes. hey, want the fastest internet?
simple. easy. awesome. come see how you can save $400 or more a year with xfinity mobile. plus, ask how to keep your current phone. visit your local xfinity store today. as we were just discussing, the government does not appear to have a plan to keep track of let alone reunite the families they have torn apart. "the washington post" highlights one organization that's a texas civil rights project representing more than 300 parents and has been able to the government agency at the center of this issue is the office of refugee resettlement, a division within the department of health and human services. scott lloyd, the person running this agency charged with resettling refugees has practically no experience resettling refugees. but he is pretty good at pushing his own version of beliefs on people. lloyd wrote a memo last year explaining why he was against letting a teenager under his
care who said her pregnancy was the result of a rape, why he wanted her not to get an abortion. we cannot be a place of refuge while we are at the same time a place of violence. we have to choose and we ought to choose to protect life rather han to destroy it. joining me now the person who headed up the office of refugee resettlement under the obama administration, bob carey, who had years of experience managing refugee issues. does o.r.r. have the capacity to do what they need to do, which is to match across agencies 2,600 children in their custody with parents? >> over time that can be achieved. what is clear is that there was no prior planning. o.r.r. was not the architect of this policy change and the business of that office is to reunite primarily adolescents with sponsors, usually family members, in the united states. they're used to serving traumatized young people but not people who have been traumatized by their own government. >> they're also used to serving people that are verbal and can speak for themselves,
13-year-olds, 14-year-olds. this is a population of 5-year-olds, 8 months, 9 months, 12 months. that makes a big difference. >> they can't articulate their needs. they're traumatized. they have been separated horrifically from parents they have never been apart from most likely. they can't communicate their needs. they're being flown or bussed across the country. so they're deeply, permanently traumatized kids. this is -- for the people working with them, they didn't go into this work -- >> to be a part of this. >> to be a part of this, no. >> you're saying at o.r.r. >> these are social workers who went into this work because they care deeply about the welfare of children and refugees an migrants. >> i want to bring in latin american correspondent for "the washington post" who wrote that piece about the chaotic effort to reunite parents with their separated kids. it looks like hhs has just put together a task force on reunification, literally just published a few minutes ago so i
don't know if you've seen it. it's going to be run out of the undersecretary or the deputy secretary who does essentially emergency management. they're kind of tasking their emergency teams. that's the first concrete step we've seen from the agency to do anything, right? >> right. i mean to date it's just been a total black hole. attorneys have been calling a toll-free number, which has been distributed to some of the detainees, some of the detained parents. when you call that number, you wait sometimes for over an hour, sometimes no one answers. when they do answer, you get almost no information. often lawyers are just told that the detainee's child is in the united states somewhere. so the effort to find information for the detainees who have lawyers, and again not all detainees have lawyers, is just incredibly, incredibly difficult. >> do you think -- i mean does this have to -- if you were in government right now, what would you be doing? what needs to happen to have this happen quickly? >> well, you need to move quickly.
you need to coordinate among different federal agencies, which clearly did not happen when this policy wa changed. they were not prepared to intake small children and have systems in place to ensure that they could be reunited quickly with their parents. that should have been part of a preplanning effort if this policy was vetted through the different branches of government in advance, which clearly was not the case. >> it seems to me if you coordinate between agencies, you have to have the white house taking a leadership role on this. it's the white house and the president and his chief of staff and his cabinet secretary who have to be invested in reuniting these kids or it's not going to happen. >> exactly. it requires leadership from the top, which -- >> because interagency stuff is messy. >> it's very messy. it's very messy. and it requires a lot of will to make it happen. and that will usually comes from leadership at the top or it doesn't happen. >> do you think, kevin, in the cases where they have been successful, how has that success happened?
>> i mean as far as i know, i mean i talked to lawyers yesterday that represent over 400 -- 400 parents of detained children. as you said, two of those -- only two of those cases have the attorneys even been able to locate the children, let alone reunify. so i'm not hearing too many success stories, frankly. what i'm hearing more of are cases of parents who have already been deported whose children remain in the united states, often remain in parts of the united states that they don't even know exactly where the children are. so i'm hearing far more sort of -- far more failures than i am success stories. i don't know how to explain the families that have been reunified frankly. and i also haven't seen too much reporting on that. i know there was an announcement from dhs saying they have reunified a certain number of families, but where are the details of those reunifications. >> there are two competing interests here. you're dealing with minors so there's a privacy interest, and i get this.
but this hpáh!een a black hole from the beginning for us reporters, for the public and even members of congress. it seems to me transparency is actually the friend of the agencies at this point if they actually want to reunite. wouldn't you agree? >> yes. it's important to maintain the privacy and security of children, but it's also important to be transparent. and when i was at o.r.r., we did frequently have tours of facilities available by appointment to journalists and congressional representatives and maintained an open door policy in that regard. i think that's concerning. it's important that the care of children and small vulnerable traumatized children is a paramount concern and symptoms and oversight is critical to be part of that. >> bob, kevin, thanks for joining us. the president's personal attorney learning loyalty only runs one way. will michael cohen flip? more, next.
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he's running, running, running and he just got in over his head. finally he realized it and his wife helped him realize it. i've got to take care of my family because donaltrump is the worst. donald trump is the worst, he's done. donald trump does not care about him, he does not care about his family, it's over. >> it's over. that's the message actor tom arnold said he got from michael cohen when the two met yesterday and took this picture which understandably set the internet ablaze. it was even retweeted by kellyanne conway's husband, who's sort of gone rogue against his wife's employer. arnold is working for the alleged trump pee tape. yes, that's the world we live in. he says he and cohen are now on
the same side. arnold telling nbc news, this dude has all the tapes. this dude has everything. i say to michael, guess what, we're taking donald trump down together. he's so tired, he's like okay. and his wife is like okay, f trump. cohen has been sending clear smoke signals his loyalty to trump has reached his limit claiming he's been frozen out boy the president, expressing frustration trump isn't paying his legal bills. on wednesday cohen resigned from the rnc finance committee and in his resignation letter he pointed a random criticism of trump's decision to separate migrant children from their parents. as the son of a polish holocaust survivor, the images and sounds is heart wrenching. children should never be used as bargaining chips. with me now, i'm joined by julia yoffe, msnbc justice and
security analyst matt miller, former spokesman of the doj and legal analyst barbara mcquade, a former federal prosecutor. barbara, i'll start with you. two interesting things about michael cohen, aside from paling around with tom arnold. one is he seems desperate to cooperate. he sent every signal that he's interested in it. two, as far as i can tell, he still hasn't had a queen for a day or proffer session with any u.s. attorney. what do you make of that? >> yeah, it's hard to detect a coherent strategy behind what he's doing and saying, but i think a couple things. one is i have heard from defense attorneys and criminal defendants that the waiting is often the hardest part when you know that there's another shoe about to drop. either you're going to be charged or you're awaiting sentencing, it's a really difficult time for defendants. they have an urge to do something and yet they have to wait. and so it can be very difficult. that may explain what's going on. but my guess is that the southern district of new york
doesn't want to reach out to him or make a decision about whether to charge him or whether to seek his cooperation until they know all of the contents of the search from his office and his home. and they're still going through that attorney/client privilege review. until they are sure that they know the full scope of any misconduct he might have engaged in, they're not ready to sit down with him. i know they're working through that as quickly as they can, but they have the third party special master, retired judge involved in the review. i'm sure she's working as quick low as she can. until that is resolved, they are not going to be prepared to make a decision about how to treat him. >> matt, what do you make of it? >> you know, this is so difficult because one of the problems we have with a lot of people in the trump orbit is deciding who's a rational actor and irrational actor. you look at people that behave like this and think he's pursuing some kind of strategy here. it might be he's trying to send a signal to the prosecutors he's trying to make a deal. it might be he's sending a signal to trump, hey, boss, look, i'm getting close to flipping, pay attention to me. send a signal that everything
will be okay and you'll pardon me or give me a pardon now and maybe i'll think differently. that might be a strategic move they would be making. but the other explanation for all this is these are just irrational people who do irrational things and say things publicly and to things like talk to tom arnold who appears on tv saying a bunch of crazy things. this is not the first time we've seen people in the trump orbit show up on television or intermediaries of theirs show up on television, sam nunberg is a great example, doing things that make no sense at all. >> julia, you just wrote a great profile about don junior. one of the things that comes through in this and other literature in this sort of genre is like loyalty to donald trump sr. is a one-way street, even when it's family members. i mean there is an insane story in this profile about the president basically when he's going through a divorce with ivana bluffing that he's going to steal his son, essentially, and calling her and her calling the bluff and be like, fine, take him. as his son watches, he just
sends him back. i just think a person that can do that, if you're michael cohen, he's not going to be loyal to you if he can do that to his own son. >> i have to say, well, first of all, it kind of explains the surprise that trump experienced when people were so upset about the child separation, right? maybe he doesn't care about being separated from his own kids. as for michael cohen, you know, i have to say this is the least surprising development. it's easy to bluff and say, you know, i'd take a bullet for him, i'd do anything to protect mr. trump. then when the bullet is barreling down at you, you know, things look a little different. i think he's just trying to save his own skin and he knows his boss better than anybody. he knows that he's -- that bullet is coming. >> so you think that he knows that that loyalty is asymmetric. >> sure. >> he's seen it up close enough he understands that that's a constant? >> and i think he's a similar kind of guy. i think people in this orbit know what they're dealing with. they're trying -- i think often
laboring under the illusion that they can get some kind of loyalty back. that when trump shines his orange sun on them, they think that there is a loyalty going in the other direction too, but i think when push comes to shove, they remember what is actually the reality, which is, as you said, that the loyalty goes one way and, you know, you only have one life to live. you don't want to spend the rest of it in prison. i get it. >> there's also the possibility, matt, that it just -- it turns to war, right? that basically he's -- the president hasn't kind of risked going to war against paul manafort, he's sort of expressed sympathy for him and distanced himself, but we do know that like "the national enquirer" ran this in april, trump's fixer's secrets and lies. that is a hit job from the white house because "the washington post" has been reporting that "the national enquirer" sent stories about trump to michael cohen all during the campaign. there is a possibility this could get very ugly it seems to me, matt.
>> yeah, look, this entire group of people, it's a viper pit. the vipers will turn on each other at some point. if you're the president, you probably look at michael cohen and there's no reason to go to war with him. keep him friendly, maybe send a few shots. but if michael cohen does flip and does cooperate, let's be honest, unless there's a pardon, that's how these cases almost always end. 95% of federal defendants plead guilty. with the pressure he's under, you have to think that's where he's going to go. if he does, the incentive is to give everything he can about the president. the more he gives, the lighter sentence he's likely to get if he gets a sentence at all. so at some point his incentives change and the incentives are to turn on the president. athe that point that's when the president's incentives change. he's starting to do a little with paul manafort. this is a guy i didn't know, he didn't work with me really, he worked for a lot of other people. you can see him distance from cohen and even turn and start attacking him.
>> barbara, given the bar that you would have to cross to search michael cohen the way they did, are you confident that they have enough to indict him probably now? >> no, i don't know that. >> interesting. >> all we know is there was probable cause to believe that evidence of a crime was in his office. it may not even be that he was the one who committed the crime. so i don't think so. i think that that is something that the prosecutors in the southern district of new york are looking at. but i do think that one of the things that michael cohen is doing could be damaging himself as a cooperator. the more public he is, the more he aligns himself with people like tom arnold who are determined to take down president trump, it sort of harms his credibility as a potential witness. so i think most lawyers would advise michael cohen right now despite the temptation to be out there, that you should just be quiet right now because anything you say could be seen by people as creating a bias against president trump if he ultimately does cooperate against him. >> julia, matt, barbara, thanks
there was a crowd of protesters outside her house blasting audio of the sounds of migrant children crying and chanting "no justice, no sleep." >> no justice. >> no peace. >> no justice. >> no peace. >> no justice, no sleep. no justice, no sleep. >> earlier this week she went out to dinner at a mexican restaurant of all places and you probably saw what happened there. >> end family separation! >> end family separation! >> end family separation! >> if kids don't eat in peace, you don't eat in peace. if kids don't eat in peace, you don't eat in peace. >> as tragic as it is to the social life of the homeland security secretary may be, turns out there are a lot of trump administration employees with trouble in that department. that's thing 2 in 60 seconds.
so when donald j. trump took the oath of office, the deplorables declared victory, came to washington, d.c. and became the undateables. politico interviewed more than 30 millenial staffers from the trump white house and across the administration and found trump supporters swipe left. meaning don't even bother trying. it might be the single most common disclaimer on dating profiles in washington. in a town where only 4% of residents voted for trump, young staffers have had to develop a keen sense of when to have the talk with romantic partners. one trump millenial reported getting this message. just googled you, go blank yourself. one said i have gotten yelled at a few times walking out of work. so what's a young, single trump employee to do? a common coping mechanism is go on intra-administration double dates. one young former health and human services official kwieds that rebellion, a southern themed establishment farther north near u street is one of the few closet trump bars in town. [ heavy breathing ]
[ screams ] rated pg-13. it has been a rough few days for former trump campaign chairman paul manafort. today marks one week since he was sent to jail over allegations of witness tampering, and the same judge who locked him up just rejected a bunch of requests from his legal team. earlier today she denied a motion to dismiss one of manafort's money laundering charges, affirming he will have to forfeit related assets to the government if convicted. just yesterday, the judge denied
a separate motion to suppress all the evidence seized from manafort's storage locker. that trial in washington, d.c., is set to begin in september. manafort i, of course, facing another trial in northern virginia. that starting just a month from now. his only real glimmer of hope is to get a jury pool full of fox news viewers. >> i believe that this is the end of mueller's investigation effectively. and the president of the united states, my friend and a great president who's off to a terrific start, is going to be vindicated that this is a witch hunt with no evidence and nothing else but a bunch of people who hate him, hate republicans, hate anything that he stands for, and vowed to get him no matter what. >> so that appears to be just what robert mueller is afraid of, not what rudy giuliani said, but that potential jurors are watching that. in a motion filed yesterday by one of his top prosecutors, he argues the nature and scope of the publicity surrounding this matter raises a substantial danger that potential jurors may have already formed opinions about the defendant's guilt or innocence and may have developed
views with the special counsel's investigation or may otherwise be affected in their ability to consider the case impartially. to remedy that, mueller asked for permission to use a written questionnaire for prospective jurors including a question about where they get their news. dehumanizing rhetoth immigrant children and the wake-up call for all of america right after this break.
so here's what happened this week. in the midst of a national moral emergency over the government's policy of tearing migrant children away from their parents the president of the united states referred to those very same migrants as vermin, tweeting that they want to "infest our country." he's talking there about mothers and children desperately seeking asylum in the u.s. this morning fox news rationalized the president's rhetoric and his policies with the following argument. >> like it or not, these aren't our kids. show them compassion. but it's not like he's doing this to the people of idaho or texas. these are people from another country.
and now people are saying that they're more important than people in our country, who are paying taxes, who have needs as well. >> also today, iowa republican steve king, who has espoused white supremacist views on this very show and who recently retweeted propaganda posted by an actual honest to goodness hitler admiring neo-nazi, had this to say about a group of detained migrant boys. young boys all old enough to be tried as adults or serve in the military are prime ms-13 gang material and certainly grew up in the culture of one of the top ten most violent countries in the world. when it comes to immigration the gop is steve king's party. for more on how we got here and what it mays for immigration policy going forward i'm joined by msnbc contributor jennifer rubin columnist for the "washington post." enrique marones founder and director of border angels. and corinne jean pierre. moveon.org. kilmeade walked that back. he said i didn't mean to make it seem like children coming to the u.s. illegally are less
important because they live in another country. i have comfor all children, especially the kids separated from their parents right now. that said, i have been truly aghast at the vileness of the rhetoric of dehumanization that we have seen this week. what do you think about it? >> in the past they've been more careful about their language quite frankly. but this is what you have to do. if you're going to intern children and mothers and fathers you have to have the population subdued by the notion that these are less than human, they are not us, they are subhuman. that's why you use words like "infestation," like vermin. trump has been doing this for a while now, and he's had to turn up the volume because his offenses against these people have also gotten worse. so you are now seeing in its full glory, in its full fashion what the face of fascism, what this looks like, what this deep racial animus. and he has to keep going because he has to keep feeding this to
his base. he has to keep repeating it to himself. and frankly, the fox guy can take it back all he wants. that is exactly what he meant. he meant they are lesser individuals. you can't just say oh, well, i didn't really mean it. no, he did mean it. that's the premise of all of this. now, i want to raise one more question. trump continually conflates these people with criminals. he did it again today, visiting with the parents. the children who have been scattered to the winds are not criminals. their parents are not criminals. this is not the origin of ms-13. this is a human tragedy. and for trump to associate them with criminals and the rest of them to associate them with criminals is also a fascistic move. >> enrique, i wanted to talk to you because you've been working on the border in arizona in one of the most dangerous parts for crossing in the entire country. and you try to help administer to and help migrants who are crossing illegally. and you interact with them.
and i wonder what do you make of the tenor of the rhetoric, what you've seen in this country both from the president, his supporters, and also people who are saying no, this is absolutely outrageous? >> well, chris, good to see you again. we're based in san diego. we do do work in arizona but our base is in california. today we had 40 people out in the desert putting water in california. where we're based here in san diego. and donald trump's rhetoric is hateful. he started his campaign attacking me. i was born in san diego and i'm 100% proud to be mexican, of mexican ots. he said i was a criminal and a rapist. not only saying this we're animals. hate words lead to hate actions. we've seen a raise in height crimes. even though less people have been crossing than the last 40 years. nowadays there's a rise in the detentions, the deaths out on the border. it's a horrific situation. donald trump without a doubt is pure evil.
no country of the americas has a law besides the united states, a third of the 2,000-mile border has a wall. that has caused 11,000 deaths since 1994 and the republican congress of back then. no other country in the world separates children from their parents. that hasn't happened in this country since the time of slavery and this this world since the time of the nazis. and those are groups that donald trump, i can see him working with those types of groups. he's admitted it. he admitted it in virginia. he says that some of them are good fellows including the person that killed heather heyer who was the person who was killed. if you're not outraged you're not paying attention. we're outraged. i was just at a detention facility two hours ago with senator kamala harris. it's unbelievable what's going on. it's the worst of the american spirit. and there's only one person to blame, and that's donald trump. not enough of us came out to vote in november of 2016, and the world is paying the difference. >> on the other side of this,
the politics of this, karine, is that 71% of americans say that immigration is good for the country. there has been a kind of backlash to trumpism. so i think sometimes political observers overestimate how deep or broad -- i shouldn't say deep. how broad the appeal of trumpism and the trumpist line on immigration is. it's a vermin infestation. what is your organization seeing in response to this? i know you guys have an action called for june 30th, big march on washington, actions around the country. what have you seen on the other side in terms of the countermobilization of this? >> well, it's been pretty -- it's been pretty intense. people are angry. we've hit rock bottom this week. actually, we say that a lot. oh, we've hit rock bottom. every week i feel like we say that all the time. but when you go after children in the way that he did, in the crisis that he created, this inhumane moral crisis that he created that no one else but the trump administration did that, because he thought he could get away with it, with the dehumanizing of what you guys
were talking about, because he's done that and it's been two years of being a racist and a bigot. he thought, okay, i can get away with this, no one is going to say anything, my base is going to love this. and what happened is people said oh heck, no, we're not taking this, we're going to fight, we're going to continue to fight, we're going to double down. and trump for the first time in his administration slightly backed down. slightly. which we've never seen him do before. and we're going to continue to do that. as you just mentioned, i'm going to be going to the border on monday and tuesday. on saturday the 30th we're going to have a major march across the country, 50 states, 300,000 sign-ups. and we're going to continue. we're going to double down. >> you know, jennifer, i feel like there's this sort of savvy view among pundits that this stuff plays better than it does. but remember the virginia gubernatorial race where it was basically a referendum on ms-13. trump tweet on it, ralph northam running for governor of virginia
is fighting for the violent ms-13 killer gangs and sanctuary cities. vote ed gillespie. and northam won relatively handily. and i feel like that political lesson has not permeated or penetrated the political class of d.c. >> you're exactly right. i try to bring some perspective in talking about this. but trump is -- the more intense he becomes the harder he churns on the cesspool of his base, the more intense they get. but the harder it is for everybody else to go along with it or to ignore it. so you do have northam. you have a whole slew of elections in 2017 which went the democrats' way. you have over 40 seats in state legislatures that flipped from republican to democrat. so i think there is a backlash, and i think there is also a recognition that people didn't get off the couch and didn't go vote in 2016. and if they make that mistake again, we're in a heck of a lot of trouble as a country because we do have an opportunity to
yank them back a bit. >> jennifer rubin, enrique morones, and karine jean-pierre. thank you for joining me. that is "all in" for this evening. >> one man too many. >> it wasn't like bang, bang, until suddenly there was one man left. >> it wasn't like bang, bang, bang. it was like bang, pause, bang, pause. >> which sounds more like what? execution? >> you could take it that way, yes. >> a cold-blooded killing. who pulled the trigger? did jealousy drive someone to murder or did she? >> michelle was brilliant, cunning, ruthless woman. >> three lives lost in a deadly triangle.