because they were killed by criminal illegal aliens. these are the families the media ignores. they don't talk about them. very unfair. >> good morning and welcome to "a.m. joy." in a last-ditch attempt to turn national attention away from the more than 2,000 children separated from their parents at the u.s.-mexico border by his administration, donald trump did some counterprogramming on friday, bringing to the white house families whose children have been killed allegedly by undocumented immigrants. playing on those families' tragic losses, trump attempted to rebrand the family separation crisis that his administration created by seeming to suggest that migrants entering the u.s. seeking asylum are somehow synonymous with violent criminals and that the only real family separation is being caused by these mythical violent central american migrants. never mind the fact that
evidence suggests immigration does not increase crime rates. in fact, immigrants are significantly less likely to commit crimes. or the fact that the global outrage being directed at the united states is not merely a public relations debacle for the trump administration, it's a humanitarian crisis that he and his administration created by seizing more than 2,000 children from their parents. some of the kids are as young as a few months old. ripped out of the arms of their moms and dads, put on planes and scattered around the country in an estimated 100 shelters in 17 states, in some cases while their parents are being deported without them. on friday, the same day that trump slammed the door on a legislative fix with a casual tweet, new reports emerged that the trump administration is making plans to scale up migrant detention in a major way, forcing up to 100,000 people into military camps according to a newly leaked navy memo first
reported by "time" magazine. it's the latest indicator that we are about to repeat one of the most shameful episodes in modern american history, a point made on friday by democratic senator richard blumenthal of connecticut outside a temporary shelter in texas. >> i think it's an internment site with tents. it's a prison-like internment site. >> joining me now from homestead, florida, one of the many sites where children taken by the trump administration have been sent to is msnbc correspondent mariana atencio. mariana, you were in a hearing in which some of the parents who have been separated from their kids are being adjudicated, having their pleas heard. can you please describe to us what you saw? and i believe this was in mccowan. >> reporter: joy, so i was in the federal courthouse before
zero tolerance, before the issue of a separation of children was sort of reversed with the trump executive order, but i was in the federal court and i saw hundreds of immigrants being brought in with shackles. it takes in that federal court about a minute and a half per case. these people are told to just plead guilty so they can be reunited with their children. it is just incredibly heartbreaking to see because all of them, again, i mean, they're just told to plead guilty and move on to the next, and then begins the incredibly difficult challenge of reuniting them with their kids. we know there are 17 or so case where is the charges were just dropped last thursday. federal public defends are incredibly confused. after the ones i witnessed the process of reunification is challenging because parents are skwd for prints, for background
check, and legal guardians who want to take kids out of shelters like the one i'm standing in front of. it is incredibly complicated. when you start to talk about and think about the children, there are more than a thousand in this shelter in homestead, florida, where i am now, the second largest facility housing migrant children in the country, again, it's heartbreaking to think more than a thousand of them are in there, and 70 of them have been separated from their parents. so the process in court and the process of reunification is just very complicated and something that is being figured out day by day for these families. >> mariana, just to go back, when parents are in these hearings, if they plead guilty, are they then given the location of their child and some assurance that they can get them back? >> reporter: that is something, again, that federal public defenders and these parents are figuring out day by day because of the reversal in the policy just happened.
and mcallen, texas, is ground zero for that. but when you're in that courtroom and you see these parents' distraught faces, they're meeting their lawyers that very morning. they only get a couple of minutes with them if at all. and they're told very little about their children and where they are and they're told to just plead guilty with the promise that they will get to see them but with very little assurances. i was actually able to speak to parents who were not prosecuted but were separated from their children for short periods of time, and they tell me that officials never really give them explanation as to when they'll be able to see them again, and the lack of legal assistance for these families is overwhelming. so incredibly hard and with no assurances for them. it is devastating to see just the faces of these parents, and, again, thinking about the children, more than a thousand in this facility behind me, who are here alone, 70 of which are part of those 2,000 children that were separated from their
parents by this administration. joy? >> msnbc's mariana atencio. mariana, your reporting has been stellar. thank you so much for staying on top of this and allowing us to actually see what is happening rather than just hearing it from the administration. you've been doing excellent work. please stay on us. >> joy, thank you for your platform. thank you so much. >> thank you, my friend. i appreciate it. dr. tracy gardener, marie elena, and democratic congresswoman fredrica wilson of florida me. congresswoman, you and i have been on tv talking about your advocacy for bring back our girls. this was about the girls in nigeria who were taken by boko haram and spirited away and their families didn't see them in some cases for years. 300-plus girls.
it is incredibly ironic to me, congresswoman, you are back asking where are the girls? a similar question but it's about our government, our government. we're going to show a map here that shows the states with shelters and sort of where these kids have been spirited away to. that's a map showing they've gone all over the country including in homestead, florida. nearly 30% are the unaccompanied minors who enter the u.s. have been girls according to hhs. but girls and babies and toddlers haven't been shown in the photos at the shelters migrant children are kept and little is shared about with where they're kept after being separated from their parents. you tweeted, where are the girls? have you been able to get an answer to your question? >> well, i know there are girls here at homestead, and, joy, on monday, i was in brownsville, texas, at the border, looking for the girls. and i did go into a center, and i actually saw babies, i saw lit
bail byes who had just been born, and their mothers were in detention and the children are now u.s. citizens. so i did see a few girls but not a lot of them. but i expect to see many today because i will be going to the homestead shelter, and there are hundreds of girls there. but i really became disturbed when our attorney general announced that it was not going to be practical for girls to use gang violence and domestic violence as a defense to receive asylum. so i knew it would be very difficult for these girls, so that's why i'm searching all over this nation for the centers that are housing the girls. and we know that girls have particular issues and problems and concerns that we have to be very mindful of as a country.
so we've got to hold on for the girls. >> congresswoman, it is stunning to me, we saw senator gil nelson denied access to these facilities, members of congress denied access to these facilities. this is a federal regime that is taking place. this is the presidential administration taking these children. i am stunned, i have to say, that as a member of congress that you don't have free and open access to the facilities, still don't have free and open access. >> still don't. the only way i was able to gain entrance into the brownsville centers, i went with the homeland security committee, and today we had to get special permission to go in with senator nelson and debbie wasserman schultz and other members this afternoon. and they're telling us we need two weeks' notification before we can get in.
but this is all our president. this is horrific. and this is what he has put upon the american people. what is happening to these children, joy, is devastating, devastating, and we have to keep fighting. i mean, i did a twitter storm that just blew up twitter on finding these girls and making sure that he signed an executive order to release these children and to reunite them with their parents. i saw a little baby that i held in my arm, and this baby was so starved for love, he was just holding onto me in a rocking chair. it is unbelievable. and this is america. he has brought this country to its knees, and we must stop him. and i'm calling on the president and to melania. she asked what can she do? well, miss first lady, i think it would be so wonderful if you
headed, spearheaded this whole effort to reunite parents with their children. we're depending on you. >> indeed. i want to play -- i want to get to my other two guests on this question. kristen welker from msnbc asked kirstjen nielsen where the toddler, the babies are, and this was her answer. take a listen. >> where are the girls? where are the young toddlers? >> i don't know i'm not familiar with those particular images. >> you're saying that they are being well cared for. so how can you make that claim that you don't know where they are? >> it's not that i don't know where they are. i'm saying that the vast majority of children are held by health and human services. >> maria elena, how can these parents find these kids if the homeland security center doesn't know where they are? >> joy, this is so unconscionable. secretary nielsen should
absolutely resign. she heads up a department that is doing the job, the dirty job of torturing and traumatizing these children as the congresswoman was just talking about. it is unacceptable that in the united states, a country that has long held up our legal system as a beacon and something that should be a model for the world, is now basically the system of law and disorder. it is chaos created by this trump administration where you don't have a secretary who doesn't know where these children are, where these girls are, where all of them are. there's no accountability. there's no sense of responsibility that what they are doing is unlawful, immoral, and frankly just does not belong -- any child does not belong in jail. and so, you know, what we're asking in this moment is that, you know, after this executive order that was frankly just a political and theatrical move to try to deflect the pressure that
the american people, who said children are off-limits, we cannot allow this to happen in this country, that executive order has actually created just more chaos. what we're seeing is a repeat of what we experience at the beginning of this administration when they signed, hastily signed the executive order on the travel ban, on the muslim ban. similarly, when you have people drafting executive orders that don't have the expertise, this is what we get -- chaos, disorder, and frankly it flies in the face of family values and a system that should be orderly, where parents should be able to know exactly where their children are, should know what the process is to be reunited with them, and it should be done immediately and instead we are looking at the president possibly permanently separating these families. >> chaos, disorder, and lawsuits. ten states according to nbc news have now sued over the child separations. the washington solicitor general said what they're doing right now is unconscionable.
there have been lawsuits. i want to come to dr. gardener because you are dealing with these children directly. in baltimore, immigration agents have sent dozens of children to maryland. many of the children have come in with little information. one of the kids is 18 months old. several are too young to speak to their new caregivers or help social workers track down relatives. they're babies. they don't know their names. they can't talk. they're trying to figure out how to put together asylum claims for 6-year-olds who probably couldn't tell you their parents' full names. the united nations human rights commission has called this punitive, severely hampering development, and in some cases amounting to torture. people are being used as a deterrent to regular migration, which is unacceptable. what are these children going through when you're dealing with them, the ones here in new york? >> although we don't have children less than 12 years of age, the reality of it is that they're all children. >> yeah. >> so all children, when you
traumatize them, will have long-term and short-term consequences, and the truth is that we're so busy thinking about how we can now get the information from the parents to penalize them so that they can't come back, but we never thought to get the information from the parents when we separated them from their parents. >> we're also hearing stories that children are being told they can't hug their siblings, that the adults caring for them can't hug them. they essentially have to not even touch anyone. can you just describe what -- how a child even attempts to cope in a situation they've been taken from their mom and dad, they're not familiar with their surroundings, they've been flown across the country, they're alone, i mean, it must be also traumatic on the care gimp give well. describe that situation. >> so if you are a baby who will not see your parent the following day or the day after, even if the possibility of reuniting with that parent comes
back again, you will always think the parent will not come back. >> right. >> so they're traumatizing children at a level that they cannot completely comprehend, and i think that when you're so willing to separate children, babies, right, what level, how far would you go? because if you can rip a child from a baby with no thought process about what will happen to that baby afterwards, short term and long term, what else are you willing to do? >> the harm that's being done to their children, their brain development, their emotional development, can it be undone? >> with a tremendous lot of support and resiliency, but it's very individualized. i have seen this in my experiences that it is long term, that they always -- a lot of them have trust issues. a lot of them have medical issues. they are at risk. this is not hyperbole. they are at risk of early death. they are at risk of diabetes,
hypertension, heart disease. they are at risk of many medical problems and mental health issues and suicides and others that sometimes they don't even remember what the trauma was. >> right. they just -- and we don't even if they'll get their parents back. before we go, one last word to the councilwoman. you're trying to see the girls in homestead today. you expect to get inside, congresswoman. >> i expect to get inside. and i have 50 balloon, red, white, and blue balloons, that i'm taking to lift their spirits. i know i'm going to get inside even if i have to break in, so i have these 50 balloons that i'm taking to lift their spirits and also to give them a hug. i've been hugging children in all the detention centers. they said you're not supposed to touch them, but i each been h'v hugging them. i want to make a point these children are on a different track from their parents.
the children are in hhs. the parents are in homeland security. so these databases do not even merge, so there's no way for them to know where the mother is in regards to where the child is. so that's a serious problem. >> in a normal world there would be immediate congressional hearings to deal with this and there are none. >> immediately. >> dr. tracy gardener, maria elena, fredrica wilson, please keep us up to dato date on what. ahead, america's slow walk towards totalitarianism. can we stop it? >> i cried last night when i heard those babies crying. that's not right! it's not fair! and it's not just! this has gone on too long, and it must stop and it must stop now, not tomorrow, but now! now is the time to do what is right.
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the most luxurious hotel in the world for everybody. >> after repeatedly saying congress needed to solve the immigration crisis, trump on friday ordered his typically compliant party to delay dealing with the issue until after the midterm elections. while accusing democrats of concocting, quote, phony stories of sadness and grief, referring to the actual heartbreaking stories of children and parents torn apart at the border by the trump administration. trump's tactic of blaming his opponents for his policies along with his cabinet's claims that the bible or some law they cannot cite justifies separating families, what the new york err describes as a technique of deflection. they have depersonalized the violence. it points out trump certainly didn't invent the technique, which has been perfect t over t -- perfected over the years by the man trump seems to admire most, vladimir putin.
author of "the future of history" joins us. you talk about how violence works in the most cruel and terrifying societies, that the victims of genocide, ethnic cleansing, mass deportation, famines that are intentionally visited on one another are anonymous. we have the perpetrators portray their victims as enemies and criminals. the trump administration is saying it's not just the victims but also the perpetrators. can you explain? >> when we listen to them talk it's the weirdest thing. trump says it's the democrats. jeff sessions says the bible made me do it. you know, tights lit's the law. kirstjen nielsen most weirdly says there's no policy. >> it just isn't happening. >> she said it's happening but there's no policy. it's like no one is accountable. it's new to americans because we're actually used to sort of personalize power for all the
bad and good that comes with it. there's a nameless, faceless bureaucracy perpetrating this, it's a totalitarian technique. >> you call it rule by nobody. you talk about this idea that trump is sort of retrofitting a sort of superbureaucracy. it's that faceless thing that's doing it. how can he do that when he makes politics so personal? if he's hyperpersonalizing his rule, then how can he also create this faceless void that's doing the bad things? >> it's a very bizarre thing. it's like he's retrofitting this. the tyranny of nobody, the rule of that, is usually something that precedes somebody like trump who then comes in to wield power. it's like he's retrofit being. >> doing it in reverse. >> doing it in the reverse. but the ultimate result is the same. we're witnessing terror, and no
one is accountable for it or taking responsibility for it. too does it scare you so many people -- there's a famous quote about steven milnphen miller in fair" where he says he enjoys seeing the pictures at the border. some say he's ss. that's the extreme of it. we see people on fox news, people on twitter saying i'm fine with this. is it right when people see those p ia pictures and say i'm good with that? >> even though we've supposedly seen the worst of it with trump's executive order and they'll stop separating children from their families, we have seen the conversation shift so much and seen our tolerance for witnessing cruelty grow so much just in the course of a couple of weeks. you know, we saw jeff sessions say we're going to do this to terrify them. >> that's right. >> it was very clear that
they're perpetrating ter roror doing it intentionally. >> they want them to be afraid, but there is a prt of their base that sees it as this is trump defend mig group against those people. >> this is a process of portraying immigrants as a very dangerous enemy, animals who infest this country. they're threat to us. and now what has happened is at the end of it we're going to be in a conversation about how we supposedly prevent this terrifying threat rather than a conversation about whether we should even be doing this, whether there is a threat, you know, how much of a right we have to patrol borders. all those should be open questions rather than, you know, how tall a wall do we build, which is sport ort of where we' landed. >> this is number three from our producers. this is a map that shows the united states was a full democracy in 2015 and dipped into a flawed democracy in 2016 and 2017, when trump came along. 21st in the ranking along with italy, which we know has
creeping fascism returning. we're seeing poland return in this direction, hungary, sort of this new axis of -- i don't know if you want to call it anti-democracy, i don't know what you cal it, but it is happening. madeleine albright has written a book about fascism. there's a threat of hyperbole whenever we talk about trump. you don't know if it's politics. is it too much to call this fascism? >> i don't think it's too much. i don't think we have fascist rule in this country, but what we have is a fascist leader. you know, we have nativnativist nationalist leader devoting all his energy into portraying a group of people as super dangerous, subhuman animals, right, infestation, and superhuman at the same time because they're so frightening, because if we don't protect ourselves, terrible things will happen, we don't know what kind of catastrophe will befall us. that is fascism. whether we allow fascism to take
over this country is an open question and none of us know what is will happen. it is by no means hyperbole to call trump a fascist. >> it's scary. we were talking about i during the break. it is frightening but i think americans have to start confronting frightening things and speaking in ways that we're not used to. >> right. and, you know, it's the oddest thing because we also talked about how fast it happens. >> yeah. >> but i'm always thinking about how slowly it happens, you know. somebody posted recently the mock cover that "the boston globe" did before trump's election to try to scare people that said deportations to begin, and we thought it would be so shocking just a year and a half ago, and now we're in the middle of it. deportations have long since begun and worse than deportations. >> and soon internment camps. masha gessen, thank you very much. coming up, the alarming reasons why so many americans are numb to separating children, even little kids, from their moms an dads. save the dinosaurs
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three-hour "a.m. joy" i'll be in texas to report on the border crisis. poem from around the country will be there to protest the trump administration's draconian policy and to demand migrant children be reunited with their parents. from 10:00 a.m. to 1:00 p.m. eastern sunday for a special "a.m. joy." - i love my grandma. - anncr: as you grow older, your brain naturally begins to change which may cause trouble with recall. - learning from him is great... when i can keep up! - anncr: thankfully, prevagen helps your brain and improves memory. - dad's got all the answers. - anncr: prevagen is now the number-one-selling brain health supplement in drug stores nationwide. - she outsmarts me every single time. - checkmate! you wanna play again? - anncr: prevagen. healthier brain. better life. looking for a hotel that fits... whoooo. ...your budget? tripadvisor now searches over... ...200 sites to find you the... ...hotel you want at the lowest price. grazi, gino! find a price that fits.
syndrome who was taken from her mother and put in a cage. >> wah-wah-. >> did you say that to a 10-year-old girl? how dare you? how absolutely dare you, sir? >> that is just one glaring example of what seems to be a recurring theme, a certain lack of empathy by some trump supporters for the migrant families being torn apart at the border. corey lewandowski, trump's onetime campaign manager, refused to apologize for the remark saying it had nothing to do with the girl with down syndrome. meanwhile, melania trump faced a huge backlash for wearing this jacket with the phrase "i really don't care, do you" on the back heading to visit the migrant children on the mexican border. her spokeswoman said there was no hidden message but her husband contradicted that. and this message from fox news. >> these are not, like it or not, these aren't our kids, show
them compassion, but it's not like he's doing this to the people of idaho or texas. these are people from another country and now people are saying that they're more important than people in our country who are paying taxes. >> wow. joining me now, sophia nelson, former gop counsel on the house overnight committee and author of "e pleasure un." sophia, welcome to the show, my friend. >> thank you. >> let's go to you on this first. i want to play a piece of donald trump's supporters at this rally that he held on wednesday in minnesota who were asked about donald trump's policy of separating families at the border. take a listen. >> if i tried to take my family to canada illegally, i'm not going to be allowed to do anything. if i take my family into mexico illegally, you might not ever see me again. so i think it's a very just policy even though unfair for
the family. >> this whole thing of emotion versus logic, oh, my god, please care for the children, well, if i get arrested, my kids aren't going to see me for a while either. don't bring them to the border. you won't get separated from them. >> that kind of callousness makes me cringe, but i see it a lot. i see it in my social media feeds. you hear it a lot. it is not like it is uncommon. when you hear that, what is it that you're hearing going on among some of these trump supporters? >> well, first of all, i think it's important to separate trump supporters from republicans, and i think that's something we've been talking about. when you see steve schmidt, when you see george will calling for leaving the party or calling for the democrats to take over, you know there's an epic crisis for the soul of the republican party, but the trumpification of the republican party is what you're seeing. this is a group of americans that are terrified by the demographic shifts in our
nation. this is what the underbelly of all this is about. it's a fear of immigrants, a fear of people of color, a fear of women, a fear of what has never been and people that have voices now, so this callousness and this coldness that you see is also deeply rooted in who we are as a nation going back to 1619 when we brought slaves here for the first time in august of 1619, 20 african slaves in chains and then the process of separating slave women from their children and ripping families apart is really a part of our history, and we have to deal with that to come forward to understand the callousness that we're seeing right now. >> sophisophia, i don't know thu can separate the trump base from the republican base. you had nixon with the silent majority. you had demonization of people of color whether on the issues of busing, the reagan era calling people welfare queen, the tea party. let me play amy kramer.
witch doctor mock-ups of president obama. it's not like something came along and the republican party changed. trump tapped into something that was there and people like steve schmidt and george will are the outliers it seems to me. this was amy this morning on cnn talking about this issue. >> every day in america children are separated from their parents because they commit crimes and the adults are incarcerated. we enforce the law on american citizens. why is it that we enforce the law upon american citizens but we should not enforce the laws upon people coming here illegally? tell me the difference. do they have more rights than we do? >> that is not something that trump produced in the republican party. it was in the republican party already. >> you and i have been friends for a loong time. i've been a republican for a long time until i stopped being one and voted for obama. the issue is there is a nixon
southern strategy, as you've mentioned. i've been screaming for 25 years literally at the wind apparently to the republicans that you're going to have to change the way you talk about people of color, deal with them, deal with people who are different, open up the tent for real, and you have to have policies that back that up and messengers and people who can communicate with others other than somebody who is from the caucasian, southern, midwest base of the party. and so when someone like that says what she says, i don't have any words for that other than sheer ignorance. but i do agree with you the republican party has trended this way and donald trump came in and bluf it up a in and blew it up and it's the trumpification of the party like i said. >> god rest charles krauthammer, he passed away this week. he had column he wrote in 2016. he wrote, donald trump, the man who defied every political rule and prevailed to win his party's nomination last week took on
perhaps the most sacred political rule of law, never attack a gold star family because it reveals a shocking absence of elementary decency and of natural empathy for the most profound of human sorrows, parental fwre parental grief. donald trump then won the republican primary, won before that, he was already the nominee, but he turned around and won a huge majority among republicans. so this sort of callousness, this sort of, well, they're not from idaho, which says something to me, interestingly enough, they're not from idaho so we don't care, that sort of coldness, donald trump didn't create it, he found it in the party, right? >> he mined it in the party. we have 16 or so candidates. and presidential lexs aelection not won on thousands of pages of white papers. they're won on big messages. president obama won on hope and change and universal health care. that's what he won on. donald trump tapped into the big message of illegal immigration
that we had seen in two prior elections. he tapped into that vein of saying that our borders are porous, the republican primary voters listened to it thishgs still listening to it, they think the rule of law matters. and this incident now just accentuates how poorly our laws are being upheld and it really accentuates what donald trump said during the election. i mean, i've always told you, joy, i'm not in love with the republican party. i'm in love with america. and i use the republican party as a vehicle to try to make it better. >> you do, katon. you do a lot of hard work trying to diversify the republican party, sophia as well. but the reality is this isn't about the rule of law. this anti-immigrant fervor we're seeing in europe as well, this
vehemen vehemence, this callousness, this is about demographic panic, not the rule of law. donald trump either claims he can't change the law or only he can fix it. isn't this a vein inside of your party that has a tissue rejection against a specific kind of immigrant? >> i think it has a rejection to peop who are breaking in our country illegally. i do. i see it at the rallies. >> do we see this kind of vehemence against the irish who have overstayed their visas? we've had groups come over from island ireland. you don't see it. you see this. >> they see the southern border. they see the length of the southern border, which is from hilton head, south carolina, to the middle of maine. that's how big that boarder is. and they see people coming over here, breaking in our country. that's what they see. now, you're right, do they see the irish, see the others? probably not. but they are accentuating seeing this problem from these other country, the drug cartels and
the -- >> that is not a real crisis. fox news is making it look like it's this horde of brown people running over. before we go, let's play laura ingr ingram, now a fox news host. this is her talking monday about those migrant children separated from their moms and dads. >> since more illegal immigrants are rushing the border, more kids are being separated from their parents and temporarily housed in what are essentially summer camps. >> these are not susm esummer c. what are you hearing back from your radio show? what kind of calls are you taking? >> i'm hearing a lot of emotion and a lack of emotion as well. i had a caller in texas who served in desert storm who said his father served in germany. he was the one that raised the nazi references, not myself, and he was horrified. to hear a grown man cry on the phone because suddenly he doesn't recognize his country is very difficult. what's also difficult is hearing the opposite, the people who say
that -- who try to dismiss this. it's prevalence now of ostriches in america. it's a bird that keeps its head in the sand and refuses to acknowledge the reality around them because they would rather believe that their government is doing good and that the person that they voted for has good intentions rather than recognizing that they have allied themselves with people who are willing to dehumanize and create an us versus them situation. the same people who say us versus them about immigrants and people coming across the border are the same people who do that about american citizens in the united states. >> and i want to point out to our viewers, corey lewandowski, who said the thing about wah, wah, wah, he's on a plane with donald trump headed to vegas with him. so it's not as if there's anything considered wrong with doing that. there's something going on here. i want to have you all back and we'll talk about this again. thank you all. have a wonderful weekend.
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facility and i also would like to ask you how i can help to these children to reunite with their families as quickly as possible. >> at the same time melania trump was making a surprise visit to a shelter for migrant children her husband was doubling down on his zero tolerance policy. the president claimed melania and ivanka were influential in his signing of an executive order ending his policy in theory of separating migrant children from their parents. of course, ivanka's pr machine would certainly like to encourage you that belief. joining me now two people with insight into the trump family. tim owe brian author of "trump nation" and emily jane fox author of "born trump: inside america's first family." i was telling you, emily, that this book is in my bag, this and my little groot doll. let's talk about this for a second. ivanka after this executive order which we will talk to lawrence o'donnell which is more
like a memo tweeted thank you potus for taking critical action. congress must now act. pretending that he ended something that he hadn't done in the first place. there is a weird thing that's going on with ivanka where she said she was there to be the voice for women and families, she doesn't do anything, but then when trump retreats from a policy she thanks him for t what is going on? >> this is what's been going on since she joined the administration. there's always a story after something that's particularly controversial in the administration where ivanka and jared behind the scenes have been working to moderate the president. it's amazing that it ends up out there every single time. >> every time. >> it's disappointing for people who really thought she was going to be there to want to be an advocate for women and children and it's hard to say you are an advocate if you are silent. >> what were they like in terms of their social life in new york before donald trump became president? >> they had a great life before they moved to washington and joined the administration. they had a social circle that was enviable among people in new
york, they had people -- i heard her described this week as being youthless but harmless and now she is youthful and toxic. i think that was a great way -- i heard it somewhere and that was a great way to describe her. >> cbn has put out the news and this is a friendly -- a friendly outlet, tim, to them that ivanka trump donated $50,000 to a texas church helping children at the border. there is no evidence that that church is actually doing anything to help these my grant children, but she gives them $50,000. it's a church that supports her father. the pastor of the father supports her dad. and then in emily's book she talks about the fact that the key to her father's marketing ee thos may have been all press is good press. you do see this dynamic of always trying as emily said to get good press for herself. what is she getting out of it, then, at this point? >> like the president she is a performance artist. if you look at ivanka's twitter
feed, every picture she puts up of her private life is heavily crafted. she doesn't put up pictures of her children vomiting or ill or in shapy clothing, the lighting and color is always perfect. during the southern border crisis her twitter feed was in radio silence about what was going on. it was only until it had come to a vague and trump took this vague step towards issuing an executive order that she finally said something. this is a woman who has made child care and empowering women key platform issues for her within this administration. >> yeah. >> and, you know, a pro tip for ivanka, detention centers along the southern border do not make for great day care. >> it seems pretty clear what jared gets out of this. he needed to get a certain amount of money for 666 fifth avenue, he can make a lot of contacts and friends that can help his family business. what does ivanka get out of being in this government? she has gotten a lot of chinese patents. >> sure. there is a financial side of this, but there is a status and clout side of this and in
proximity to power that she never thought she would have. you also have to realize this is someone who is not going to leave her father. as many things and financial gain that she would get and the amount of power she will have, this is someone who went to washington because she didn't want her father to have this situation and for her to not be along for the ride. >> do the children have loyalty to trump and does he have loyalty to them? >> i think the children have loyalty to him. i don't think trump has loyalty to anyone. he may have loyalty to ivanka at the end of the day, i don't think he would be loyal to jared but i think loyalty is not a two-way street in donald trump's world. >> we need more time. we need to have three hours every day. tim o'brien and emily jane fox thank you very much. ♪ ♪ ♪ raindrops on roses and whiskers on kittens ♪ ♪ bright copper kettles and warm woolen mittens ♪ ♪ brown paper packages tied up with strings ♪ ♪ these are a few of my favorite things ♪
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welcome back to "a.m. joy." this morning we're still trying to determine the whereabouts of more than 2000 migrant children including babies who were separated from their parents and are being held in locations across the u.s. on the orders of the trump administration. after a heart wrenching week we now know what donald trump's zero tolerance on immigration looks like in practice. here is just some of the events that happened during the week. >> republican leaders have spent a lot of time talking about lifting up families and caring for children, talking about their own kids. that's not what's happening on the southern border of the united states. >> this is a conscious policy by the trump administration to systematically separate children from their parents.
>> it is important to note that these minors are very well taken care of. don't believe the press. they are very well taken care of. >> we do not want to separate children from their parents. we do not want adults to bring children into this country unlawfully, either. >> ten-year-old robert told me that the gangs were recruiting him in his school and christina, the mother, i need to ask you, if you had known that you could be prosecuted for crossing the border illegally and your children could be taken away, would you still have come given these high levels of violence? [ speaking spanish ] >> she says she wouldn't have come. >> what's happening is so sad -- is so sad -- and it can be taken care of quickly, beautifully and we will have safety. >> so why doesn't the president pick up the phone and change the policy? he said he hates it.
>> i think what the president is trying to do is find a long-term fix. so why don't we have congress change the laws to change -- >> since more illegal immigrants are rushing the border more kids are being separated from their parents. and temporarily house ds in what are essentially summer camps. >> look, i read today about a ten-year-old girl with down's syndrome who was taken from her mother and put in a cage. i read about a -- >> did you just say wah, wah to a ten-year-old -- >> i said you can pick anything you want -- >> how dare you? how dare you? how absolutely dare you, sir. >> people that come in high a late the law they endanger their children in the process and frankly they endanger all of our children. when you prosecute the parents for coming in illegally, which should happen, you have to take the children away [ speaking spanish ]
>> shame. shame. shame. shame. >> in a mexican restaurant of all places. >> this incredible. trump administration officials have been sending babies and other young children -- hold on. to at least three -- three tender age shelters in south texas. lawyers and medical providers -- i think i'm going to have to hand this off. >> we're signing an executive order i consider to be a very important executive order. it's about keeping families together while at the same time being sure that we have a very powerful, very strong border.
>> the number of families that are posing as families as quadruple trying to cross our borders. you're having people who are doing human trafficking, terrorists and cartel members using -- >> where is your evidence that there's terrorists -- where is your evidence for that? where is evidence of a terrorist using a child to cross a bonder? i would like to see some evidence of that. >> go look at the kids that are under the age of five years old that are being in custody right now and see how many of them were separated from true parents as opposed to from cartel members. >> you have a 2,000 mile journey up next co, they walk through mexico like it's walking through central park. it's ridiculous. >> we all know they are having -- they are here without their families and i want to thank you for your hard work, your compassion and your kindness you are giving them in this difficult times. >> this is a picture of melania trump boarding air force one to head down to texas to visit some of the children being held in detention centers.
her spokesperson told reporters there is no hidden message, i hope this isn't what the media is going to choose to focus on. it was, however, something her husband focused on. he tweeted, i don't really care, do you written on the back of melania's jacket refers to the fake news media. melania has learned how dishonest they are and she no longer cares. >> the most extreme trumpists in the republican house offered an immigration bill that got only 193 votes when it needed 218. 41 republicans voted against it. republicans didn't need any democratic votes to pass it, but they still couldn't do it. >> like it or not these aren't our kids. show them compassion, but it's not like he's doing this to the people of idaho or -- or texas. >> these are the american citizens permanently separated from their loved ones. they are not separated for a day or two days. these are permanently separated because they were killed by
criminal illegal aliens. >> rule 17 of the house that prohibits -- rule 17 -- >> i can't play sounds -- >> the gentleman will suspend -- >> why are you trying to prevent the american people from listening what it sounds like -- >> -- prohibits the use of that device. >> these are babies and kids in a detention facility. why do you not let the american people hear what they are saying. >> the gentleman will suspend -- >> wow. okay. joining me now lawrence o'donnell, msnbc's host of the last word with lawrence o'donnell. jay cab sobe soboroff and tony vargas. that felt like it could have been a run down of a year. it was a run down of a week. one of the things that's struck me about the trump era is how
it's sort of shock and awe. it's constant. this week i felt like it was a different level, though. i think a lot of people could not have anticipated babies in cages, babies ripped away interest their moms breast-feeding. your thoughts. >> and those of us who couldn't should have been able to because this is -- if we listened carefully this is what candidate trump was promising. and yet there is -- there is no concept more shocking that has occurred during his presidency. we could do 15 minutes right now on any one of those bits of tape that you just showed reviewing this week, but i think we know of all the voices we just heard i think we know who the most powerful and important voices were and those were the voices of the faces we did not see of those babies and children crying on that audiotape, the most important tape that was obtained this week. those voices controlled
everything that happened in this debate after those voices emerged. everything. they were the most powerful voices of the would he can. >> absolutely. i can totally relate to the way that rachel maddow reacted to this way of tender age shelters. i sat on my couch and cried when listening to those audiotapes. one of the things that you've seen happen is people who support donald trump saying at the same time -- sometimes in the same sentence -- it isn't happening and those people deserved it. right. but you saw it. you saw the babies. >> that's right. i didn't see the young kids on the tape that lawrence is talking about, but i did see those little babies, same age as my kids, sitting in a cage by themselves playing on the ground watched over by a security contractor like the type you would see in a war zone watching over them, as if it was a day care worker. social workers actually sitting outside. we are living in the midst of a
slow motion national disgrace that the president helped us see over the course of the last week by throwing these babies in a cage, but this is 20 plus years of failed immigration policy that has brought us to this point, has wrapped up people like my friend josé antonio vargas and it's not just about what happened over the last six days, it's about our elected leaders in washington, d.c. having no clue what happens down on our southern border and the millions of people that ultimately are affected by the way that they perceive what's happening down there. >> that's a good point. they don't know, they are not there looking at it so they are able to paint a picture of the hoard of brown people running up from central america and storming into the country which isn't true. using that fear to drive support for at this point we are talking about inn turning tens of thousands of people. >> and also the word, criminal illegal aliens. >> that's the new one. >> that's the new one. but i have to say i was just e-mailing with some colleagues
at the "new york times." every single news organization really must examine itself in terms of how it's reporting on this issue and the words and the language that they use. so in the "new york times" and the "washington post" and npr still calls legal illegal. what are we buying into? for me what i have to say is how do -- i wonder how this past week how parents have explained to their kids where those kids are. 2,300 kids are still separated from their parents. there is a #reunitethe2300. where are those 2,300 kids and how are they going to get back with their parents. it's been wonderful that so many people now care about this since this has been happening for a while. when i was arrested four years ago we can't let up. we have to really force this administration to answer the question of how are they going to reunite these 2,300 kids with their parents. >> i wonder how you reunite a
baby that can't say their name. >> they've answered the question by saying we don't know. we have no idea how to do this, therefore, we are creating what the government creates when it doesn't know how to do something a task force. it's a task force that didn't exist yesterday meaning yesterday they had no idea. >> can i tell you something, i spoke with an hhs official this morning and i asked really specifically does that mean number one that all the 2,300 will be reunited with their specific parents, the people they came to this country with and they can't answer that question. they said there are rare circumstances, quote/unquote, where those kids won't be reunited with their parents. what happens with the parents like the one richard engel showed us that have already been deported back to their home country. >> when you saw the kids, especially the infants, toddlers, people like my assistant has a baby who couldn't tell you his name, he is a baby, are these children in some way having these identities recorded in a way that the parent could even figure out -- let's say they've been sent to michigan and the parent has been
deported back to guatemala. how would that parent in guatemala who can't get back in find that kid? >> one is hhs tells me, yes, we record specific information about every person that we have in our custody and the border patrol and homeland security assigns an "a" number to every undocumented implant that they take into their custody as well. it's very hard to get that information if you're trying to track folks. but the second part of this is if you're deported back to guatemala or honduras or el salvador, you are not a rich person. you are no the hiring a new york city attorney to go chase -- michael avenatti who is down there talking to people -- to chase after these folks and you are not going to be able to have the resources to call up the border patrol or dhs or hhs and track down your child or you may not even have the resources to make a long distance phone call to get in it up wf that 800 number. >> lawrence, last night -- on friday night i was watching your show. you are not confident that even the 500 that the tramp
administration claims have been reunited have been. >> why would anyone believe that 500 have been reunited because the administration said yesterday 500 have been reunited. >> right. >> by the way, almost all of us are using the wrong number. we keep referring to this 2,300. that was 2,300 as of june 9th. >> correct. >> they kept doing it for a week after that. it's about 1,000 more than that because they were doing -- dozens a day, roughly 1 u.n. had a day. so everybody is off on this number by a giant amount. >> and we are still seeing pictures, i had someone text me pike tours the other day of what looked like little kids sitting on a bus after this supposed executive order. so it's not clear. i have no play -- i want to play this for you specifically, this is tucker carlson. i think being honest about what in the view of himself and other people who support these ideas this is really about. this is tucker carlson on his show monday. >> this is one of those moments that tells you everything about our rural class. they care far more about
foreigners than about their own people. no matter what they tell you this is not about helping children. so don't for a second let them take the moral high ground. their goal is to change your country forever. >> so their goal is to change your country. what does that mean when you hear that? >> when i hear had a that's tucker carlson defining america for the fox news audience. that's what i hear. the other thing that i hear is we have been unable in the past week now watching the news i have to say, jacob, just doing an incredible job and i couldn't watch it just because i was there. we are still not asking why, right? i don't think we're -- the question of why these kids are coming to begin with. what does u.s. foreign policy and u.s. trade agreements what we've done, honduras, guatemala, what are the consequences of all of that. and we are not asking why is it all of these conflation of crime, right, all of these conflation of, you know, these foreigners, all of this is naked
racism, right? we have to call it what it is. and, again, if you are a news organization and you are not being honest with the american people, right, you know, watching marcia it was hard not to think about the fact that we are living in a fascist regime and the role of the press, our role, to call it what it is in the spirit of george orwell is more than ever. >> it scares people but we have to face it. lawrence o'donnell will be back later in the show. thank you very much. jacob, you and mariana have been riveting, your coverage has been incredible. lawrence also went down to the border. you have done an incredible job of making sure that we see what we see and we can believe our own eyes. thank you very much both of you and my friend. don't miss jacob on "dateline" for the border special the dividing line on nbc. up next trump tells congress don't even bother. over the last 24 hours,
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their policies stink. they are no good. they have no ideas, they have no nothing. the democrats. we should be able to make an immigration bill that can really solve the problem, not just this -- this is one aspect of it. this is one very important but small aspect of it. >> donald trump quickly sought
to shift the blame for the border crisis that he created on to congress. then on friday he threw a wrench in that process telling republicans they should stop, quote, wasting their time on immigration until the midterms. two bills have been brewing in the house, the more conservative bill failed, the other a so-called compromise bill meaning a compromise between hard line and more moderate republicans with no input from democrats is set to get a vote next week. the bill among many things ends family separation at the border and offering dreamers a chance for legal status and for some a path to citizenship. but it also gives trump $25 billion for his wall that mexico was supposed to pay for, imposes drastic reductions on legal immigration and makes it harder to apply for asylum in the united states. joining me now is congressman paul, representing the state of washington. your advocacy this week has been really important. so thank you for that. >> thank you, joy. thanks for everything you're doing on the show. >> thank you. so let's talk about this bill. the first bill went away so this supposed compromise bill that
may come up for vote next week, $25 billion for the wall in mexico, pathway to citizenship for some dreamers, ends the visa lottery, limits family based migration and raises the bar for being able to pursue asylum claims in the u.s. does this bill have any chance of passing? >> i don't think it has a chance passing because republicans have never been able to come together to put together anything that they can get on their own side but then they refuse to talk to democrats. first of all, this bill does not end family separations. very important for people to understand that. it actually cod nice indefinite family detention, it takes away all the court ordered conditions for how you can hold people. what does that mean? it means things like clean drinking water, toilets, it takes away all of that. so just in terms of the crisis at the border, it does nothing to fix that crisis. secondly, you know, you mentioned some of the other hard line provisions. 82% of dreamers would be locked
out of any permanent path to citizenship. so that means we will have a permanent underclass of people. and then on top of that you add that it has all these draconian things and, you know, joy, what i really appreciate about your show is you're trying to get underneath just sort of the top lines. i don't think that trump and the republicans have really any desire to see a solution to any of the immigration issues that we're dealing with, in fact, they create crises, that's what trump did by ending the daca program and then, you know, this crisis with families being separated, children being kept in cages. they create those crises because they are useful for political reasons to drum up the racism and the hatred and so what would happen if we fixed immigration? there would be nobody to blame anymore and right now immigrants and this is not just right now, it has been true as your previous guests have been saying, has been true for some time, but the level of discourse now coming directly from the
bully in the bully pulpit is making it so much worse because there's no filter and republicans have become the party of trump as you've been saying. they believe that it is in their interest to continue to have americans think that all immigrants, there's no distinction here, all immigrants, brown and black, coming to the united states are somehow going to do crimes to people. i don't think the american people are actually buying that. i just saw a new poll in the "new york times" saying 72% of americans do believe that immigration is good for this country. but it is absolutely stoking racism for political gain. >> and to that very point mike huckabee who used to sort of be considered kind of the face of, you know, sort of friendly republican evangelicalism many years ago but now has become this guy, tweeted this today, i believe, nancy pelosi introduces her campaign committee for the take back the house and it's a picture of tattooed latino men without shirts. this idea of demonizing and only
by the way when it comes to the children taken away from their parents, only showing the boys in gray sweatshirts and pushing this idea among their base that there are these hoards of violent latino men, boys, coming across the border. it's hard to argue with what you're saying that this is not an electoral strategy. does it frighten you in a way that they believe that this will work on their base? they believe there are millions of people for whom this will work. >> well, it does frighten me because i think we are seeing the laying of conditions. and don't get me wrong, this has been happening over some time, but never like this from the white house so openly, you know, and then with a series of policy changes between chef sessions, kristen nielsen, a series of policy changes that comment this racism into the system more than ever before. so, you know, it does frighten me and it's personal, it's political, it's collective, it's everything.
i am one of only a dozen members of congress who were born outside of the united states, i came to india -- i came to the united states from india when i was 16 years old by myself. i now have the inn credible privilege of serving as the first indian-american woman in the u.s. house of representatives. you know, every time they just use words like infest, invade, i mean, the president used the word "infest." invade, this idea of invasion of brown and black people. this goes all the way back as you well know very far in the history of this country. it is also what happened in nazi germany, it is what happened during the japanese inn turnment and people on both sides of the aisle have been making this case, laura bush on the internment and michael haden saying these were the conditions in the '30s that led to what happened in the '40s. so i think we have to be very, very concerned about what's happening and, you know, that is the -- that's the issue. >> absolutely.
we know that you will be a part of the big protest next weekend. we will be in d.c. for that. hopefully you will be available to come back on again. we want to talk to you more about this. thank you so much congresswoman. >> thank you so much. and next up, defending free speech in the trump era. don't go away. we're not on an island anymore. [ roaring ] what could go wrong? you good? yeah, you? [ roaring ] [ screaming ] nope. rated pg-13. and i heard that my cousin's so, wife's sister's husband was a lawyer, so i called him. but he never called me back! if your cousin's wife's sister's husband isn't a lawyer, call legalzoom and we'll connect you with an attorney. legalzoom. where life meets legal. i'm still giving it my best even though i live with a higher risk of stroke due to afib not caused by a heart valve problem. so if there's a better treatment than warfarin, i'm up for that. eliquis. eliquis is proven to reduce stroke risk
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now, usually we don't show political ads in their entirety, especially one this long, but this week a war hero running for congress in texas released an ad that's being called one of the best political ads ever and she's going to be joining us live on "a.m. joy" next weekend. take a look. >> this is a story about doors. a lot of them. and that's me, m.j.hagar an air force combat veteran and a mom. this door behind me is from my helicopter, it's all that's left of the aircraft that i was flying that day. i was on a rescue mission in afghanistan as a combat search and rescue pilot. i heard the windshield crack and realized i had been spot, but i continued the mission and airlifted the patients out. after taking even more fire we
crashed a few miles away. but my story begins much earlier, one of my first memories was of a door but it was my dad throwing my mom through a glass one. three years later mom got the courage to walk out the door and opened a new one for my sister and me here in texas. it was here that i put my foot on the gas and followed my dream to be a pilot and that meant opening, pushing, sometimes kicking through every door that was in my way. i signed up for rotc at u.t. and then i was commissioned as an officer in the air force. i served five years in aircraft maintenance working on the f-16 and b-2. i managed to get one of only a handful of slots for flight school. then i spent a year training to fly. i flew water drops over wildfires in california. and eventually served three tours in afghanistan. and then the crash.
two army helicopters rescued us from the wreckage. i strapped myself to the skids and returned fire on the taliban while we flew to safety. that got me a purple heart and i became the second woman ever awarded the distinguished flying cross with valor, but after that the door closed. injured and unable to fly i was barred from my next career choice because i was a woman. so i came home, i worked in healthcare and business, i got married and started my family. wait. barred because i was a woman? that's ridiculous. >> so i sued the pentagon, but not just about that job, about the ban on women serving in all ground combat jobs and i went to d.c. to lobby congress, but door after door was slammed in my face. i heard things like, my boss agrees with you, but you aren't in a position to do anything for him. you're not one of our donors. well, eventually -- >> we are eliminating the direct ground combat exclusion rule for
women. >> we won. and that opened the door for hundreds of thousands of women to compete for elite ground combat jobs. a major victory for our military. >> hold on. back up a minute. not one of his donors? that's not how this is supposed to work. one of those closed door was my congressman, tea party republican john carter. apparently being his constituent and a veteran wasn't enough to get a meeting. i guess i also needed to be a donor. so now i'm running against him, taking on a system that cares more about campaign donors and political parties than protecting our country. congressman carter hasn't had a tough race his entire career so we'll show him tough then we'll show him the door. >> okay. come through, m.j. m.j. hagar, watch that name. great ad. oh, you brought butch. yeah! (butch growls at man) he's looking at me right now, isn't he? yup.
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we have a single protester. there we go. good-bye, darling. get him out of here. out. >> go back and look at george wallace videos from 1960s it's so similar. donald trump cannot seem to handle dissent of any kind. now one activist is alleging that that authoritarian impulse has been extended to the military. melanie nathan was scheduled to speak an at lgbt pride event at a navy division in california next week, but the navy canceled
her appearance citing her tweets critical of the president. a public affairs officer for the naval air warfare center said nathan's appearance was canceled due to concerns about political statements made on twitter although her comments and are not inappropriate for a private citizen exercising their right to free speech they are inappropriate for our agency to endorse any potential speaker for a command sponsored event. joining knee now is lisa bloom and her client melanie nathan. i want to start with you, lisa, explain this to us. melanie was booked to speak at the pride event, she was unbooked. was she unbooked because of something she tweeted after she was booked. >> no. huh-u huh-uh. melanie had given a clear specific proposal, the proposal was accepted in writing, there was an amount of money she was going to be paid. all of the details were worked out and agreed to in writing, a clear enforceable legal contract. the quote you just raid was the navy official canceling her
because of her anti-trump tweets. of course, the navy is not endorsing all of the tweets of anybody who goes and speaks at a pride event. >> right. >> so i think this is a clear violation of the first amendment. you know, we have the recent case where the federal journal said that trump blocking people on twitter is unconstitutional under the first amendment. the highest level of protection under the first amendment is political speech. melanie has an absolute right to criticize trump and not get fired for doing that. >> melanie, let me read a selection of some of the tweets that you had written. you wrote america has a nut case for a president and a whole bunch of people patronizing him. pot potus, what do your properties in california have to do with answering is question as president. that's what happens when a con man lands up being president. the move will eventually find its way back to him. you also tweeted about lies, lies, lies, the military is open and operating your and failed
leadership will result in them being unpaid. played any golf latel lately, #trumpshutdown. >> when you tweeted those things did you ever expect that tweeting that would mean that you were not considered appropriate to speak at a naval pride event? >> absolutely not, joy. you know, i have a right to tweet anything and i believed that he needed to be called out on all the things that he has been doing. so not in a million years would i think that my rights would be impinged in any way, shape or form. i have rights under the constitution of the united states of america. >> well, i was going to say that given the fact that trump is the commander in chief and you're speaking at a military event, did you -- were you concerned that you might not be well received at a military event because of your opposition, your personal -- your political opposition to donald trump? >> well, when i made this proposal to speak at this particular event i knew that
most people appearing and participating in the pride event were actually civilians, research scientists, those kind of people, not that it would make any difference if it was military. and i -- to me an american is an american. i have -- you know, when i immigrated to the united states of america 20 years ago i undertook an oath and in my oath i said that i would support and defend the constitution, and within that realm i have a right to speak out about anything that i disapprove of and, quite frankly, this particular president's behavior has been abhorrent and i could not have imagined in a million years that if i said so i would be prevented from speaking as an lgbt activist on lgbt issues. i had agreed not to make any kind of political statements in my talk. that was prearranged, and i was going to absolutely abide by
that. so, no, i didn't -- i got a shock when i got that e-mail. it shocked me. >> and, lisa, so in the statement that we read earlier from the navy air warfare center weapons division that canceled this contract, they specifically mentioned that it would be inappropriate for their agency to endorse the views of your client, of ms. nathan. >> they are not endorsing any more than by having me on your show today you are endorsing anything i have ever said in my entire life. they had her come to speak at a pride event. these events are relatively new for the military which not long ago had don't ask, don't tell policies. melanie who is a world renowned lgbt speaker, speaks at prield events all over the world, was an activist against apartheid, very prestigious woman, sh he was going to come in and talk about lgbt history. that was all preapproved. for them to cancel her because she criticized donald trump, you know, this is not dear leader time in north korea. we don't all have to bend the knee to donald trump to hold on
to our government contracts. that is the very essence of the first amendment. >> and, melanie, i wonder if, you know, had you had the opportunity to speak at that event, for instance, might you have addressed the transgender ban, is that something that you could have foreseen yourself talking about? >> well, i was going to talk about the history of the lgbt movement, my talk was called "generations of strength." certainly transgender trajectory in terms of the lack of transgender rights would absolutely feature in, but that's a nonpartisan discussion. that discussion does not matter whether you're a democrat or a republican or whether you approve donald trump or not. that's basically history and talking about where our rights were and where our rights still need to go in terms of full equality for the full realm of lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender and inter sex and queer people. >> lisa, where does this case
go? >> yesterday we sent a letter to the navy demanding that she be reinstated for the two events she was to speak at. this week we're hoping they will do the right thing, i suggest that they reread the recent decision from the federal judge talk being how political speech is protected and the government does not have the right to cancel people because of political speech. if not of course all of her legal options are available to her because i think this is a blatantly unconstitutional action. >> keep us up to date, lisa. we will check in with you to find out how this case is go. melanie, nice to meet you via the tv. i appreciate you both. >> thank you, joy. >> thank you very much. >> thank you very much. >> thank you. and coming up tomorrow, reminding you we have a special three-hour "a.m. joy" special live from torneo, texas, where a mass demonstration is planned based on the trump's policy. join us tok from 10:00 a.m. to 1:00 p.m. up next, more "a.m. joy." and packages.
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because it matched the description of a vehicle involved in a nearby shooting. rose was unarmed, though police say they found an empty clip in his pocket and two guns in the vehicle. the for just hours before the shooting. he's now on administrative leave. back with me to discuss, lawrence o'donald, author of "the deadly force." it was recently republished with a new preference. congratulations. i was bragging i have an old school version of the book. >> it's actually the original is over 30 years old. i've been on this subject for 35
years. and the only thing that has changed is that we now have video like that. >> and -- >> that video didn't exist for 35 years. >> why doesn't that video change the outcome in these cases? >> it's going to have a very powerful effect on the outcome for a bunch of runs. that's going to be the crucial piece of evidence for studying this already. after -- this book first came out in 1983. the next year, the year after this book came out, the supreme court ruled it was unconstitutional to make legal to shoot fleeing felony suspects because a bunch of states at that time, not all of them but a bunch of states had laws that said it's legal to shoot a fleeing felony suspect. all they have to do is flee. >> yeah. >> the supreme court said no, that's an unconstitutional law, you can't do that. the justification has to be some threat to someone and by definition. unarmed fleeing suspects are not
a threat to anyone. >> yeah. >> the police officers' stories always in these cases, almost always would carry this phrase, he turned in a threatening manner as if to shoot. i have seen that phrase word for word in countless police reports over decades and without that video, he turned in a threatening manner as if to shoot would work as a complete defense and it doesn't matter after the fact if it turns out he didn't have anything this his hand or he had a phone in his hand or had a toy in his hand but that video shows someone running away being shot while running away. the autopsy is going to come out. the autopsy very likely is going to show entrance wounds in the back and the story in my book, the entrance wounds when the autopsy comes out are in the back and the back of the head and the back of the neck and that kind of information is going to determine where this case goes. it's a very, very -- i don't -- it's not clear to me at this
stage what the defense would be here. police officer has been suspended, which is the correct action. if you have to bet at this point this case is going to go against the police officer. >> it's interesting. you come from a family of lawyers. would one of the great thing is you learn more about you, lawrence o'dona o'donald. >> i don't get personal publicly but this book is the story of my family and father who was a boston cop who took on one of these cases fighting his police department. dramatic story. we turned it into a tv movie on cbs in the 1980s. it was the defining version of this story at the time. defining in the sense this was the one time, this one time that a lawyer went into court and proved that the police were lying and that this really was a police killing and it was like a lightning strike. >> yeah. >> because it's not like people were successfully going into court after that. >> right. >> and doing it again.
>> i feel like this has parallels to the walter scott case the way you describe it. this book is about what it was like before that fleeing felon rule and we know the names michael brown, laquan mcdonald, stephen clark and many others. the walter scott case, the man fleeing with his back to the officer one of the rare cases you saw a hung jury. >> without video, there wouldn't have been a jury. >> right. >> without video, the story would have been he turned in a threatening manner as if to shoot or there would have been a planted weapon of some kind as there is -- >> which was tried with walter scott. >> in this book the police tried to plant a weapon at the scene. there were too many witnesses so they couldn't plant the weapon right with the dead victim of this shooting. they had to plant it at some distance from him and were able to prove that that was a plant. but video changes everything, and video is the huge development and that's why the
people who pull out their phones and capture those scenes are doing the most important investigative work that can be done in these cases because the first thing it does is it limits the police ability to tell a story. >> yeah. >> and let me tell you, in the old days, 35 years ago, if there were guns in that car. >> yeah. >> and the dead body was over there, the police would have taken the guns out of that car, put it in the hand of the dead victim and there would have been no video of that. that video camera and the police awareness that there are these video cameras prevents them from doing some of these things but what's true of it all, though, the spirit of trying to get away with it once a mistake has been made is still there and it controls virtually everything that the police do after the fact. >> why is it still so hard to convict police officers in cases where to the layperson it seems
obvious, you know, the tamir rice case comes to mind, it's hard to murder people. >> there is a political bias towards police. people believe the job is much more dangerous than it is. most police officers in america in a 30-year career never, never hear the sound of gunfire. >> yeah. >> they never hear it. >> yeah. >> they never have to take out their guns. >> yeah. >> they never fire their guns. >> yeah. >> and so there is this exaggerated notion of how dangerous it is and that creates an exaggerated sympathy for the story that the police officer is telling and they are absolved in that process of having to explain each decision. michael brown is shot several times. there is no explanation for the second bullet, right? the first bullet is i felt threatened. okay, so you fired one. a police officer is supported to
evaluate after every shot what the police officer does next. >> yeah. >> you only fire the second, third, fourth, and fifth for a specific reason to each bullet. the juries are absolving them of that responsibility. >> absolutely. in my household, we're a two lawrence o'donald household. we have two books. "deadly force" is out in paper back. check it out. it's a per fterrific book. >> boston accents. >> you get to hear the full lawrence boston accent. i can't do it so i won't pretend. lawrence o'donald, you can catch him on "the last word" weekni t weeknights at 10:00 p.m. we borrow him for amazing ratings. congratulations on the book and audio book. check it out. more after the break. okay. [ buttons clicking ] [ camera shutter clicks ] so, now that you have a house, you can use homequote explorer. quiet. i'm blasting my quads. janice, look.
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