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tv   Hardball With Chris Matthews  MSNBC  June 23, 2018 8:00pm-9:00pm PDT

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this frolicking romp on a friday. phil rucker, joyce vance, rev al sharpton, jason johnson. that does it for our hour. i'll see you back here for "deadli "deadline white house at 4:00 p.m. trump to republicans. don't even bother. let's play "hardball." good evening. i'm steve kornacki in for chris matthews here in new york. the white house today struggled to get its message straight on immigration both at the border and on capitol hill. the president of course reversed course earlier in the week, signing that executive order ending his administration's policy on separating migrant children from their parents. but it's still unclear how those children will be handled going forward. meanwhi meanwhile, in washington, the president back pedalled on a commitment that he would support
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legislation. this morning, trump tweeting out republicans should stop wasting their time on immigration until after we elect more senators, congressmen and women in november. dems are just playing games. have no intention of doing anything to solve this decades old problem. we can pass great legislation after the red wave. just two days ago the president reportedly promised house republicans that he would support them 100% and vowed he would not leave them in the wilderness. but the president's tweet risked stalling what little momentum that republican legislation had. it is also a dramatic reversal for an administration that spent days demanding action from congress. >> congress and the courts created this problem, and congress alone can fix it. >> the president isn't trying to kick the can down the road. he's actually trying to work with congress. >> we're going to be signing an executive order. we're also going to count on congress. >> we look forward to, you know, congress playing a big role in this. there are a lot of things that need to be done, can only be
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done by congress. >> we're also wanting to go through congress. we will be going through congress. >> amid the political back and forth, the fate of roughly 2,300 children lost in a confusing labyrinth of bureaucracy remains unknown. on thursday the pentagon announced military bases were being prepared to shelter as many as 20,000 migrant children. "time" magazine reported the navy is preparing plans to construct, quote, temporary and austere detention camps for tens of thousands of immigrants. politically this is adding up to be one of the toughest weeks of trump's presidency. today he shared the stage with families of loved ones who lost children to crimes. >> you never hear this side. these are the families the media ignores. they don't talk about them. very unfair. >> for more, i'm joined by yamiche alcindor, white house correspondent for the pbs news hour and an msnbc political analyst, brett stephens,
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columnist for "the new york times" and a political contributor. raul reyes. yamiche, let me start with you. the politics of immigration, and the messages he's sending. you had two bills in the house the republicans were working on. one, a hard-line bill, one designed to get more moderate support. the president this week was supposed to go there and rally support for the moderate bill. instead he ends up putting out that message saying, just don't do anything. we need more votes. then supposedly after that, he called and tried to backtrack a little bit. at the end of the week, is there any push from the white house for any specific legislation on immigration? >> well, i talked to a white house source only a few minutes ago, and that person told me that the president still supports either one of the bills that the house is considering. that person said if they pass the hard-line bill, if they pass the compromise bill, the president will sign it. the problem is that the president doesn't believe that the bill can pass the senate. they are complaining that republicans have such a slim majority in the senate that they
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don't feel like they can get that bill through, which means it can't actually get to the president's desk. the president then, because he's so frustrated, he's now tweeting out this is a waste of time. he's trying to make it a midterm issue. i'm told that the president, if the president wants, if these bills next week fail, he wants a bill specifically on the floor on the settlement, that court case that said it tristrictly limits how immigrant families and immigrant children in particular are housed much the. >> republican party itself, the republicans in the house cannot seem to get on the same page on this. you've got this hard-line measure and this compromise measure. the difference between them, in this compromise measure, they got the wall. they got family detention, and they got the path to citizenship for the dreamers. the hard-line measure doesn't have citizenship for the dreamers and does have reductions in legal immigration numbers. can you see a way -- >> the compromise measure is terrible because it takes the united states in precisely the
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wrong direction. we have an immigration problem in this country. we don't have enough immigrants. we need a lot more immigration if we're going to continue to fund entitlements, if we're going to continue to have a vibrant, diverse, effective workforce, if we're not going to have japanese-style stagnation. >> what's the market for that message in the republican party? >> you know, as a matter, at least until a few years ago, back when i actually affiliated with republicans, there were a lot of republicans who understood the basic free market case. leaving aside the case for decency, the case for american values, the free market case for having a strong pro-immigration policy. you will find there are many republicans in states that depend on immigration and do not want this kind of hard-line position that has overtaken fox news and the other organs of conservative nativism and extrem extremism. you have a republican party riven on its own ideology and
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its own incompetence, unable to actually arrive at what ought to be the proper conservative free market position, which is a pro-immigration position. >> did it feel to you like the base of the republican party, the voters, the folks who picked trump in these primaries, is it even plausible they're going to land where you're talking about on this? >> look, i think there is -- i don't want to say a silent majority, but there is perhaps a great many middle of the road conservatives who understand even if they want, you know, a more sort of legalized system, a more regular system, that immigration is fundamentally good for this country. my mother was a displaced person, a refugee to this country. my father came from mexico, that represents millions of people who understand that. but they don't really have a voice in today's republican or conservative establishment because the moment you try to make the case for immigration, you've got some jerk yelling amnesty and open borders and globalists. >> the president's tweet by the way also exacerbated challenges faced by republicans on the hill. let's take a look at the
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dramatically different reactions to what he had to say. >> the president's saying let's have a red wave. get more people elected to congress who want to vote yes on a solution. >> the longer this issue festers, i think it will have the reverse effect. rather than create a red wave, it may very well be part of what creates a blue wave. >> on the house floor, democrat ted lieu played an audio recording of crying migrant children to bring attention to the children still separated from their families. let's watch. [ child crying ] >> the gentleman will suspend. >> for what reason, madam speaker? >> the gentleman is in breach of quorum. >> cite the rule, madam speaker. >> rule 17 of the house. >> there's no rule that says i can't play sounds. >> the gentleman will suspend. >> why are you trying to prevent the american people from listening to what it sounds like
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in a defense facility? these are kids at a defense facility. why do you not let the american people hear what they are saying? >> raul, looking at the politics of this on capitol hill right now, what you see ted lieu talking about right there, the politics of family separation, every poll i've seen are toxic for republicans. >> right. >> you find a split in the republican party, and you go outside the republican party, and you find everybody else is looking at this largely and saying, we want no part of this. >> right. >> so on that front, it seems clear where the politics fall. i'm wondering when you get beyond that question, say, okay, what do you now do with migrant families who are caught going across the border without documentation? what then -- because the republican compromise approach would call for -- what they're trying to put in this law would call for -- what they're calling their compromise. i'm wondering do you see grounds for compromise when they say, okay, keep families together in detention while the adults await processing, while the adults
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await trial. keep the family together, but they're in detention. is there going to be any buy-in on that from democrats? >> i do not think so because i think democrats and many independents would regard that type of approach as giving in to, say, a hostage situation where the president is using these young people in the migrant camps, these families, as bargaining chips to achieve what he wants. one thing that's very problematic when we're talking about this situation is we have this certain segment of the electorate, the majority of the republicans who have bought into the completely false notion that we have a so-called illegal immigration crisis, which we do not. the president himself mentioned it. it's something like a 17-year low. all of the metrics show that this is actually the best time for immigration reform. but the president has pushed this false narrative, and now we are at a place. this week is so unusual because of the president for once on immigration, on illegal immigration, is very much on the defensive. and when you want to talk about
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policy and solutions, it's very hard to compete against pictures, audiotapes, and these very disturbing images that are now out there. and wire one're only going to se now. >> i take your point. i agree on the action. we have these polls. this struck me this week, some of the polling this week. i want to run this by the panel. the question here, as we said, when you poll the family separation, extremely unpopular. but when you poll the underlying policy, the trump administration has this zero tolerance policy. when you ask in the poll, the idea of arresting and jailing and holding anybody until trial anybody crossing the border illegally, you get plurality support of that. the second question, okay, you got the families crossing illegally. what do you do? and that idea of family detention, you hold -- this is true among democrats and republicans. that has plurality support right now. i imagine, look, as this issue
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gets litigated in politics, these numbers will change. >> right. >> maybe the democratic position changes. i don't know. when i looked at that it surprised me and made me wonder, i think they're very clear on family separation. i'm not sure they're as clear when you move away from that. >> in part because there's been such a poverty of alternatives. there is an issue of families coming over, sometimes at great risk to children, and people think, well, you know, there is a law, and they're breaking it. and you have to do something about it. but where is the politician out there, first of all, saying, why don't we just open the doors much wider instead of building walls? why are these people who are coming here just trying to build better lives for themselves and contribute to their communities here in the united states as well as back home? how are they in any sense a threat to us, and why aren't we working cooperatively with our partners in mexico. george bush was doing that 10, 12 years ago to come up with
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solutions because we are not going to solve this problem longer term unless we turn latin america into an area of prosperity, not defendant tusti >> just in the last ten days, i think all sorts of people in the public have received this crash course in immigration law. what is the flores settlement. what is asylum? what legal rights do undocumented people have? that is only going to intensify as we go forward. we haven't heard a lot of talk about solution because right now -- solutions which do exist such as investing in central america, because right now people are still processing all of this. i think the more coverage that goes on, people will realize when we talk about detention, that is jail. i think maybe if we have polls that say when they start bearing down and saying, do you support putting mothers and babies and 5 and 6-year-olds in jail indefinitely, perhaps overturning a law that mandates
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that they receive recreation and that are allowed to, you know, to be in licensed shelters, when you start getting down into the details, i think the polling will start to change. and the great weakness for the republicans, especially right now at a time of record unemployment, where is the policy argument to support this other than being against amnesty and saying that they broke the law, which asylum seekers are not? where is the policy they can back this up with? they don't have it. that's their weakness, why they keep shifting explanations. >> can i talk a little bit about the reporting that i did today? >> please. >> i just want to jump in and just say there's also a poll from the quinnipiac university that was released on monday that showed 55% of republicans actually supported separating families, and you think, okay, well, maybe they were asking the question differently. i went down to duluth, minnesota, where the president had a rally, and there were multiple people who told me these families deserve to be separated. these kids are being taught a lesson to break u.s. laws and they need to be taught the
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lesson that they can't come here and that they're not welcome here. there are people who also think that the president's narratives that there are families that are permanently, quote, unquote, separated because of crimes that illegal -- or undocumented immigrants have done to those families, kimmilling people, ev though that's a false claim, there are a lot of americans who agree with the president's stance, the original stance of actually putting these kids in detention camps. i think there's a large group of people who really believe that the president's narrative and love the fact that he was talking about separating them as a deterrent. >> yeah, no, i think that's fascinating. i looked at it just from the standpoint of, you know, hey, yeah, a majority of republicans support it. but we're in this area where it seems like every question is 90% of republicans over here, 90% of democrats over here. here is one with only 55% of republicans. i think that's work keeping in mind that you still did have a significant chunk there of republicans saying they're with the president on that even though the overall number was
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very slanted. thank you. appreciate the time from all of you. coming up, a closer look at donald trump's cozy relationship with the "national enquirer." it seems trump and his team were working as shadow editors of sorts during the 2016 campaign, signing off on stories before they went to print, even pitching damages articles about rivals. plus the president went on a tweet storm this morning, handing out ah flurry of endorsements. but tonight trump's message is getting stepped on. a blistering op-ed, a leading conservative says vote against the gop this november. and first lady melania trump has dominated headlines this week. but today a different first lady is speaking out. we're going to hear from michelle obama later in the show. finally, the "hardball" roundtable is going to be here to tell us three things we might not know. this is "hardball," where the action is. hey, no big deal. you've got a good record and liberty mutual won't hold a grudge by raising your rates over one mistake. you hear that, karen?
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welcome back to "hardball." new reporting on the michael cohen investigation has uncovered more about the strange relationship between donald trump and the sensationalist tabloid the "national enquirer." "the washington post" revealing that, quote, during the presidential campaign, "national enquirer" executives sent digital copies of the tabloid's articles and cover images related to donald trump and his political opponents to trump's attorney, michael cohen, in advance of publication. one of the enquirer's parent company, american media, has denied the practice, trump is known to be close with the company's ceo. the tabloid frequently attacked trump's opponents often with
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unverified headlines, many of them aimed at hillary clinton. the post also says trump was particularly interested in stories about clinton's health. however, the enquirer is probably best remembered for printing unsubstantiated stories about ted cruz including allegations of marital infidelity and that cruz's father worked with lee harvey oswald in the kennedy assassination. let's watch. >> i had nothing to do with it. the campaign had absolutely nothing to do with it. he's got a problem with the "national enquirer." i have no control over the nation"national enquirer." i didn't even know about the story. they're on the cover of the "national enquirer." there was a picture of him and crazy lee harvey oswald having breakfast. now, ted never denied that it was his father. what was he doing with lee harvey oswald shortly before the death, before the shooting?
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it's horrible. but there was a picture on the front page of the "national enquirer" which does have credibility. it's up to people to believe it or not believe it. i'm not writing it myself. i'm not going out and doing the research. i mean if that was "the new york times," they would have gotten pulitzer prizes for their reporting. >> i'm joined now by the aurlth of that report. sarah, let me start with you just to fill in some of the blanks. i think we gave kind of the basics there. take us through this relationship between the trump campaign and the enquirer. what did that look like behind the scenes? what did that result? for the world to see? >> well, we've known for a long time that donald trump and david pecker, who is the ceo of american media, are friendly and friends, and they've communicated a lot over the years. that's fine. people are allowed to have those kinds of friendships. what we were specifically reporting on -- well, i guess the other thing we actually know
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is the "national enquirer" gave a lot of very positive coverage to donald trump and a lot of very negative coverage to his opponents. why did that happen? how did that develop? that was one of the things we were interested in figuring out. in my reporting, what i found when i was talking to people was that there were actual stories that were sent prior to publication over to michael cohen with the express purpose of making sure that they were okay with him. >> does this -- is this -- because we heard so much here in new york. donald trump and gossip columnists. is this like a similar thing where trump the celebrity, trump the apprentice star has a relationship with a celebrity tabloid and that just folds into the campaign? is that kind of what happened here? >> i think that's one way to think about it, right? it's totally acceptable for a celebrity or a reality star or someone who is, you know, a new york real estate developer, to make lots of calls to gossip columnists and want to be a source for lots of information. the rules change a little bit when you are a candidate.
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you still can talk to as many publications as you want. you still can suggest stories. there's nothing about that that's problematic. the issue becomes one -- and this is sort of what the investigators are looking at -- is, is the national "national e part of a campaign apparatus? is there a level of control that this politician or his campaign might have over this publication? >> john, talk about the impact, if there is any. i'm curious what you make of it. use the ted cruz one as an example. the "national enquirer" puts it out there, and donald trump is able to get up there on tv and say, hey, did you see this? i've read this. people are talking about this story. it's out there. he can say, hey, the "national enquirer" is credible. it gave him an excuse to talk about this in public. do you think things like that ended up having an impact on the election? >> they might have had a minimal impact on the primaries. i don't know what impact they
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had on the election. the idea that the "national enquirer" is beholden to the rules of proper journalistic conduct is a little preposterous. it is a publication that has for 50 years done nothing but violate every journalistic rule in the playbook, you know. so the notion that it did not hold itself to a proper standard of, you know, of mainstream conduct is something that i think everybody understood during 2016 who was paying attention. i think more interestingly is what the relationship between trump and the enquirer shows in larger picture about how he got elected. trump began his political life in this modern frame around 2010, 2011, at the tutelage of his consignature lee ari roger
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stone, who introduced him to art bell and alex jones of info wars. he was deep into the world wrestling federation, into talk radio all over the country. and what we might call -- and the enquirer, what we might call a pro-letarian media that was almost entirely invisible to the mainstream media types like us. by the time he began running for office, you know, in 2015, he had built up a very large following among people who have gone totally ignored in the electoral process. and i think jump started his way into the lead in the republican primaries precisely because he had been so carefully cultivating that world and that audience that we paid no attention to. >> i think that's a fascinating point because the average "national enquirer" cover story does not make its way on to msnbc or cnn, new york times, any of these places.
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yet every day of the week millions of americans at the checkout line in the supermarket are at least seeing the cover, maybe buying it. who knows? there is an exposure there that you might not see through the coverage, and it leads to another question too. you look at donald trump and just his history in new york. the stuff that's been reported, the stuff that he's bragged about in some cases. you say, this is a guy who would be rich fodder for a tabloid. >> right. >> like the "national enquirer." and yet in 2016, that's not necessarily how the coverage read. >> no, indeed not. in terms of the small tragedy that the "national enquirer" is passing up a very rich topic, they certainly are doing that with the trump family and donald trump. he would be -- he would be a perfect sort of person to be covering. i do think that the notion that this is a part of the world that msnbc doesn't pay any attention to, "the washington post" doesn't really pay attention to, that it can pass sort of unnoticed. and yet it's everywhere in parts
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of the country where people are developing their impressions as they -- and they say, i don't know. i mean hillary clinton, it just seems like her health isn't that great, or ben carson, i've just heard he's not that good a surgeon. these kinds of things that, where did you hear that? i don't know. i do think there is a level. we sort of scoff at the "national enquirer," but i do think there is this -- it's a way of putting something into the ether. >> it is interesting. again, i know just from the checkout line at the grocery store, you see these headlines about a celebrity you haven't thought about in 20 years and the health they say is failing or something. it does -- you do remember it. boy, i wonder if something is going on there. thank you both for taking a few minutes. up next, survivors of the parkland school shooting are turning their grief and outrage into political activism. chris matthews sat down and talked with one of them. david hogg. this is "hardball," where the action is. e suggests.
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okay. this is gonna be awesome. rated pg-13. welcome back to "hardball." after living through the deadly school shooting in parkland, florida, a group of students mobilized. the teenagers are currently on a road to change tour to get, quote, young people educated, registered and motivated to vote. that's their mission, they say. in his new book, never again, a new generation draws the line, student leader david hogg writes that, quote, we've always been taught that as americans there is no problem that is out of our
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reach. anything except for our problem with gun violence, like it's an act of god or a natural disaster, something beyond our control that we are helpless to do anything about. what happened on valentine's day 2018 was neither natural nor an act of god. what happened that day was manmade, which means that as human beings, we have the capacity to do something about it. our generation has the obligation to do something about it. those were david hogg's words there. earlier this week, chris matthews sat down and spoke with him. here's that conversation. >> i'm joined right now by the author, parkland high school graduate, david hogg. david, thank you for joining us. tell us about your goals for the months ahead. >> our main goals for the months ahead, first off is just getting people elected that actually empathize with students and understand the people that are being lost every day from the south side of chicago to parkland, florida, are people. they're people just like you and me. they're people just like the people that we care about, and they're people that are lost.
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it's important for people to empathize with those children and those adults because that's part of the reason behind why my sister and i wrote this book. it's to show people what is going on in this country and how we can't allow these things to continue to happen. and how even if these things haven't affected you yet, don't let them. get out and vote. vote for morally just leaders that are willing to vote for things like universal background checks unlike the current speaker of the house, who won't bring it to the floor. and work together to solve this problem as americans. >> in your book, david -- the book is called "never again," you talk about universal background checks. you also talk about banning high capacity magazines, and of course assault weapons, banning those. how about the senators from your state? how about rick scott? he's the governor. what about marco rubio? where are they on these issues? >> marco rubio pretty much refuses to talk to me. in fact, that's part of the reason i'm wearing this price tag right now which says $1.05.
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the reasoning behind that, that's the amount of money that marco rubio has taken from the nra divided by every tunt stude our state. many have been willing to sat down and talk with us such as senator jeff flake and murkowski. they've been willing to listen unlike marco rubio in florida. bill nelson h just simply ask how you can help. >> what are you going to tell your voters? you're 18. voters in florida, for example, in the weeks and months ahead before november. >> i'm going to tell them, look, it doesn't matter if they're a democrat or republican. just do your research into who their special interests are and ask yourself do you want those special interests to be governing you? at the end of the day, right now it's not our politicians that are governing us. it's the corporate special interests that get them elected that are. that's what allows these things to continue. and why what happened at our school on february 14th happened. if we had politicians that were willing to take action after columbine and the nra didn't
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block things like university background checks, these things wouldn't continue to happen. understand this is not anything against nra members. we know the nra does teach some safety lessons and do advocate for safety. there's also a different part of the organization that advocates actively against things like universal background checks, not because they don't support them, but because when they have in the -- >> let me ask you about the title of your book, never again. those of us who remember history, yourself included, i believe, know that never again is really an historic cry that we never have a holocaust again, what happened in europe in the 1940s where 6 million jews were killed and others were killed. is that too strong a title, do you think? obviously not. in your case, you think it is. why is your call just as vivid? >> since the beginning of this, when we made the hashtag, we worked through that, and we talked about it. i bring this up a lot. i talk about this in the book specifically, how we don't use that term lightly and we understand that, of course -- we just -- we don't want these
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things to happen ever again either, and that's the hashtag that we used in the beginning of it. that's part of the trademark of this movement. >> yeah. strong language, strong message. good luck to you sir. david hogg, voter, author, graduate of parkland high school, and advocate for gun control and gun safety. the book is "never again: a new generation draws the line." still ahead, every the optimist, president trump now says congress should stop wasting their time on immigration until more republicans are elected in november. so what are the chances that will actually happen given that yet another leading conservative now out there warning americans, saying they should vote against republicans in november? you're watching "hardball." (♪) i'm a four-year-old ring bearer with a bad habit of swallowing stuff. still won't eat my broccoli, though. and if you don't have the right overage, you could be paying for that pricey love band yourself.
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i we worked with pg&eof to save energy because wenie. wanted to help the school. they would put these signs on the door to let the teacher know you didn't cut off the light. the teachers, they would call us the energy patrol. so they would be like, here they come, turn off your lights! those three young ladies were teaching the whole school about energy efficiency.
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we actually saved $50,000. and that's just one school, two semesters, three girls. together, we're building a better california. if you want to create a humane, lawful system of immigration, then you need to retire the democrats and elect republicans to finally secure
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our borders. in the senate, we need unfortunately 60 votes. we have 51 votes. we need democrats. they will do anything to obstruct, anything to make it as uncomfortable as possible because they think it's good politics. i actually think it's bad politics. we will see very soon. >> welcome back to "hardball." president trump appears to have given up on congress passing an immigration bill, tweeting this morning that republicans, he says, should stop wasting their time on immigration until after we elect more senators and congressmen and women in november. he then tweeted out endorsements for henry mcmaster of south carolina, martha roby and ron desantos down in florida. but late today, conservative columnist george will wrote a stunning column when you consider his history in "the washington post," titled vote against the gop this november, referring to congressional republicans as trump's poodles, will argues that, quote, in today's gop, which is the
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president's plaything, he is the mainstream. so to vote against his party's cowering congressional caucuses is to affirm the nation's honor while quarantining him. a democratic-controlled congress would be a basket of deplorables, but there would be enough republicans to gum up the machinery, keeping the institution as peripheral as it has been under their control and asphyxiating mischief from a democratic house. let's bring in tonight's "hardball" roundtable. regina maxwell, nan hayworth, and nick confis sor i. stunning give george will's history. in the trump era he's been very anti-trump. he's out there, nan. i'm curious. conservative credentials, you know, from reagan, i remember, through newt gingrich. mr. conservative as columnists go. does that critique of the republican party, calling republican congressmen and women
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poodles of president trump, does it resonate with you at all? >> you know, mr. will's highly air rue diet general peevishness under the era of trump is well known. this doesn't surprise me. he's extremely frustrated with the fact that washington is mired internessing battles. he feels that -- and, indeed, president trump has signed -- is on pace to sign more executive orders potentially than any president in recent history, and that a symptom, if you will of the fact that congress has not been able to pass legislation. >> he's talking about something bigger there. he's talking about this subservience to trump, what he sees as -- >> yeah. >> that does not -- >> no. steve, i'm not seeing that. having been in the house republican conference, i know many of the republicans who are
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in the house now. many of them are very independently minded, and almost all of them are seeking to represent their districts effectively. there are many, many districts across the country who wholeheartedly support president trump's agenda. and these members are adamantine about certain things. obviously there are representatives from swing districts, many of whose residents do not support the president's agenda. but to propose that would be jumping from the frying pan into the fire basically. >> i've having some flashbacks of 2016 because there was a school of thought that there was a type of republican, a type of george will-like republican that would have that revulsion at donald trump and that would cause some erosion in the suburbs in places like the suburbs of philadelphia. >> right. >> the famous line from chuck schumer a couple weeks before the election was for every vote
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we lose in rural pennsylvania that trump wins over, we're going to get two in the suburbs. i think he was thinking of george will republicans. they didn't really cross over in those numbers in 2016. do you think it's any different in 2018? >> i think he's making a different argument than we were making. we were saying donald trump and what he's proposing is so repulsing to common decency, you would vote for a democrat. just to quote joy reid, one of the thing he says that that republican over there is a bad person is not a winning argument if you're a democrat running for office. so you have to offer something and also provide policy details so that people can support that. george will is making a different argument. what he's saying is that this particular president and this particular republican party are morally bankrupt in this moment. we're talking about babies in cages as if it's just another political conversation, just another political debate. it is not. and i think that george will is, just like steve schmidt earlier this week, said that we have to
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take a stand in this moment as americans, as decent humans, and draw a line and say we are rejecting this essentially white nationalist policy that is putting brown families and their children in detention camps. >> that's grotesquely inaccurate. >> it is not. >> different sort of versions here of where the republican party is right now. do you think anything about this week has changed the way any voter looks at the republican party? >> i think absolutely. look, i think george will is singular, and there aren't that many george will voters out there. for as long as i've seen anything happening in politics, he has been the epitome of a conservatism of ideas. and trump represents a conservatism of blood and soil. in some ways he's barely conservative. there are certain people who are going to look for something different attitudinally. i actually think trump has the
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better of this argument. i think most of the party is more like him. it's a politics of revenge and not a politics of ideas. it's a politics against elites and against people that these voters feel have been looking down on them for years and years. that is what powers that coalition. i'm not sure what's happening on the border is going to change that much. but there are people again in suburbs and elsewhere who look at what's happening and think it's beyond our country to have it that way. >> i'm curious. we showed the numbers earlier. there's a divide in the republican party on -- we had this question of family separation. it was pretty unpopular overall, but in the republican party there were two -- which of those camps were in watching that this week? >> clearly we don't want to see children separated from families. we also know that the policy of separating children from accompanying adults is not unique to this administration and in fact -- >> that's not true. >> it was pursued. >> -- on this network yesterday talking about the fact that they --
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>> yes, we were putting people in detention, but which were not separating families. we were not separating babies and putting them in cages. that is something that is new. jacob soboroff has also said that -- >> [ overlapping voices ] >> we should say that in 2014 and in the past under the obama administration, there was no policy that led to the required separation of families. that's a new thing. there were detention facilities. >> right, with unaccompanied people certainly. >> -- that showed conditions that have been denounced this week. i think there's a legitimate, you know, grounds for debate and conversation around that. we should say, though, the specific policy here of family separation, which the trump folks say, hey, it grows out of being zero tolerance, which a lot of other folks say is unacceptable under any circumstances. that is a new thing at this moment. the roundtable staying with us. more with them. and up next, former first lady
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michelle obama is speaking out about her time in the white house. why she says her family didn't have the luxury to make mistakes. you're watching "hardball." as the one who is always trapped beneath the duvet i'm begging you... take gas-x. your tossing and turning isn't restlessness, it's gas! gas-x relieves pressure, bloating and discomfort... fast! so we can all sleep easier tonight.
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conversation with cohen like this. quote, i say to michael, guess what? we're taking trump down together. he's so tired. he's like okay. his wife is like, okay. blank trump. arnold later clarified that about cohen on msnbc when asked if he will flip. >> donald trump does not care about him, he does not care about his family. it's over. michael cohen is going to take care of his family and his country first. that's all you need to know. think about that. >> that's what tom arnold had to say. you can judge for yourself if you want to take that with a grain of salt. we'll be right back. growls at ) he's looking at me right now, isn't he? yup. (butch barks at man) butch is like an old soul that just hates my guts. (laughs) (vo) you can never have too many faithful companions. that's why i got a subaru crosstrek.
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liberty stands with you. liberty mutual insurance. we also knew we didn't have the luxury to make mistakes. when you are the first -- i mean i lived my life as the first, the only one at the table, and barack and i knew very early that we would be measured by a different yardstick. making mistakes was not an option for us.
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not that we didn't make mistakes, but we had to be good. no, we had to be outstanding at everything we did. >> welcome back to "hardball." that was former first lady michelle obama today on the responsibility she says she felt being part of the first black family in the white house. back with our roundtable now. interesting the pressure she's describing there. >> i think every black american can relate to what she's talking about. i was the first and only in many instances in my education and also professional life, and so i think she's correct to say that as the first black family in the white house, they did have to be perfect. she couldn't say everything that probably she wanted to say or wear things that had messages on them. i think that, you know, the idea that melania trump and michelle obama are graded on the same level, i think that yesterday proves that that's not true. you know, melania trump wore a message on her jacket and it's not really about the jacket, don't wear one with a message on
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it. i think michelle obama is speaking the truth right there. >> in some ways too, melania trump is a first lady like we've never seen before. until yesterday you hadn't heard much from her either. >> she is not in the traditional first lady role. in some ways it's the president's daughter who inhabits that role. she's chosen not to play the traditional role. i think it's great. the whole notion that the wife or the spouse of the president has to be a public helpmate is very outdated. i think if she wants to stay indoors and do her thing, she should. >> i remember -- >> i agree. i agree. >> i remember in 2004 howard dean was running in '04 and his wife wasn't even campaigning for a long time. he said, hey, she's got her own life, she's a doctor up there in vermont. there was so much pressure she had to come on the campaign trail. >> i have to respect what michelle obama says about her experience because it was her experience.
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i do feel that mrs. trump is being judged often by a very harsh standard. the jacket message notwithstanding. the president obviously tweeted about it, said what she's saying is she doesn't care what the media say about her. and there have been some pretty harsh and hostile things said about melania trump who i think i agree with you, nick, i think she is a gracious person who is doing her best in a very difficult fish bowl. >> roundtable staying with us. up next, these three will tell me something i don't know. you're watching "hardball."
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we're back with the "hardball" roundtable. nick, tell me something i don't know. >> we all know washington is full of men who talk too much, but it turns out that we also talk to each other too much. according to a new study, when male journalists are responding to somebody on twitter, they are almost always responding to a different male reporter. with that, i will stop talking. >> does that ring true? >> yes. i see this with my own eyes. obviously you need data to back up your points but i think we can all do a better job in engaging women and their journalism and the things that they write and their ideas. >> interesting. twitter, the whole etiquette is beyond -- retweet, comment on people, the whole thing scares the heck out of me. chris matthews back here on monday night.
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a secret memo leaking and it exposes new plans for detention camps for over 100,000 migrants at military migrant as cross the country. plans for an immigration reform vote next week are a waste. a fox news whistle blower will join me live to expose propaganda that's hurting our democracy. michael cohen is publicly locking arms with one of donald trump's celebrity enemies. this comes amidst a new ruling tonight in the fed's scorched earth effort to give every last document text from cohen's offices. what he does could literally impact the entire trump presidency, we're going to turn first live tonight

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