tv MSNBC Live With Velshi and Ruhle MSNBC July 5, 2018 8:00am-9:00am PDT
likely to three. we'll concentrate on that over the course of the next hour. peter, thank you. good morning, everyone. i'm ali velshi. stephanie ruhle is off. today is thursday, july 5th. breaking news from the white house. a source familiar with the white house telling me the list of names has been narrowed to three. >> from a substantive view, they're all deeply conservative. >> president trump is expected to announce his supreme court nominee on monday. >> very talented people, brilliant people, and i think you're going to love it. >> amy barrett would be better for the base, but a tougher confirmation fight. >> the senate will have the final say. and pressure building on red state democrats home for the holiday to oppose any presidential pick. >> presidential authority, gerrymandering, affirmative action. >> i have told the white house counsel, individuals that to me appear to meet the criteria.
>> espionage and intrigue. once again striking this sleepy corner of england. >> we can confirm the man and woman have been exposed to the nerve agent novichok. both remain in critical condition. >> the use of chemical weapons conducting a state operation. with russia as the prime minister suspect. charges the kremlin denies. >> the concern now is finding where these two were exposed to this. the race against time. new fears this morning about more flooding on the way in thailand. >> half a mile underneath beare 12 boys trying to be brave, desperate to be free, but not out of danger. >> the threat of monsoon rains expected to hit the area at the end of the week is forcing rescue teams to come up with
alternative plans to free the boys and their soccer coach. >> rescue teamers delivering food, water and setting up an internet cable so those boyks talk to their parents. >> rescue workers are doing drills, preparing for the moment the boys are brought to the surface. >> if they don't make a move soon, they could be stuck in there for months. president trump is gearing to make one of the biggest decisions of his presidency, naming his nominee to the supreme court. hisself imposed deadline is days away on monday. and just this morning, a source familiar with the selection process tells nbc news the president has narrowed it to brett kavanaugh, amy coney barrett, and raymond kethledge. the president is interviewing the candidates and expected to make his decision partly based on how much he likes them personally, which may make sense from his perspective. whom efficient trump appoints will likely end up being the
deciding vote involving the president directly. with me now is kelly oem'donnel. what do we know? >> reporter: we have three candidates that present different qualities the president can consider. part of what has happened, the first two have been talked about the most, brett kavanaugh and amy coney barrett, have gotten a lot of the attention, and of course, with that comes some of the negative attention and scrutiny. that sort of lead leaves a pat for a name that's surfaced among the sources that we have to the top three, and that's raymond kethledge. he's considered an originalist, meaning interpreting the constitution in its time of what the individuals who passed those lawing and whs and what the con held at the time, instead of
trying to interpret it through a modern lens. that's something the president has talked about. we had sources who said the president indicated he wanted a h harvard or yale graduate, and raymond kethledge is a michigan grad. one of the things we have seen in past iterations of selection processes, sometimes the first names out there like a brett kavanaugh or amy coney barrett, get all of the attention, and it sort of quiets the scrutiny by the time an ultimate candidate emerges. that could be a raymond kethledge. the vice president has also been involved in conversations with finalists, according to sources. and monday is the big finale of this. and the president likely would stick with that schedule because
it would be a primetime media event, a national address. something of this stature, a nominee to the supreme court certainly rises to that level. even if the president decides today, tomorrow over the weekend, there's still a little bit of room before he might unveil it. and then you have the mechanics of once a nominee is notified, you have to get them to washington if they're not already here, et cetera, et cetera. so process is narrowing, certainly a big indicator. but there's still question marks until we know for sure at the latest monday night. >> i want to touch on something here. the president has claimed he's not asking them how they would vote on roe v. wade. it doesn't matter because they've been vetted by the heritage foundation and the senators are going to ask this question. they're pretty well trained in dodging it. these are established judges, so one can glean things from precedent. the more important issue is this president understands that the investigation on him and surrounding him may, at some
point, end up in the supreme court. we don't know, and he hasn't said whether he's going to talk to them about that topic. >> reporter: and it could raise the issue of recusal. we saw with elena kagan, she had to recuse herself when certain cases came up. we don't know if that is a part of the conversation. typically, we're hearing from the president that he's been coached, if you will, that he's not supposed to talk through the specifics. but we're not in the room to know if he's doing that. on the issue of abortion, some of these judges have not been in a position where a case that takes in any of those types of issues. there have been many cases that relate to reproductive rights that come to a lower level court where we would have seen decisions related to that. so we have to look more broadly, do they follow precedent and there is a large school of thinking that roe v. wade is settled law on the books for more than 45 years now. so it's an interesting question
you pose. all things with president trump and this administration tend to have some addition allayers to it, and the fact that there could be issues that rise to the court. that could be an issue, and it may raise the issue at some point of recusal if that comes to being. kagan's situation was different, because she was in the solicitor general's office and a party to the legal work in that time. >> mimi, let's pick this up. politico writes many legal experts say the fact that a judge was nominated by a particular president is not a basis to ask him or her to avoid all cases connected to that president. we go back to nixon and water da gate. there were four judges appointed by president nixon. one, william rehnquist, did recuse himself for anything to do with watergate because he was part of the nixon administration. but this is an interesting topic. if the guy hires you, nominates
you for the job, what does the law say about your obligation to the man? >> first of all, the supreme court justices are actually relatively exempt from the recusal rules that even other federal judges are required to follow. that said, it is correct that a judge, whether it's a justice on the supreme court or a federal judge, should not have to recuse themself from all cases involving the president who appointed them. that is way too broad. we are in a very unique situation here, though. we have a president who is facing not only an unprecedented number of civil and criminal liability questions, unprecedented. but also a very credible threat of impeachment. however this turns out, anyone who is being objective cannot say that there's now not a real possibility that there will be a report and recommendation to congress and the senate, and that they'll at least consider
that question and that questions will come out of that. that is unique. the people who have recused themselves in the past, as you said, kagan, who was mentioned by kelly, rehnquist, they had personal connections to the circumstances, that they actually worked for the president. this is different. so i don't think it's a required recusal, even under the laws that would apply to federal judges. but i think this is as much about appearance and people's faith in the justice system as it is about what's required. >> i have dozens of tweets from people who -- lay people like myself, who are saying this president should not, being under investigation, be in a position to nominate a judge at all. there are some people, legal and ethical scholars, who have chimed in on that, and said maybe that's true.
>> look, i agree with that. my first choice if i was putting these in order of how i should analyze it, he should not get to nominate someone until this investigation is done. that's the cory booker view, as far as i can tell. i think that even under the mcconnell rule, he called obama a lame duck president and that's why he didn't get to nominate somebody. someone who is under criminal investigation and facing possible impeachment, could be considered a lame duck president. for the legitimacy of the court, some of this is about the public view and do we want people to have faith -- >> that's huge. right now there are a lot of americans, polls don't have faith in media and some of our institutions and some don't have faith in congress or the presidency. if people lose that faith in the supreme court, that's worrisome for the fabric of society and democracy.
>> it is. there's one thing that distinguishes the supreme court and all federal judges that i do place great weight on, which is lifetime tenure. that is there for a reason. it is an excellent buffer to the things that we are all concerned with, that swb omebody is going make a decision on the court to return a favor. they don't need to. so i do have faith, for the most part, in federal judges and in this process, in large part because of this, because of lifetime tenure. but going back to these circumstances, the president and what he's facing, and a president who has shown himself to make decisions in his governance and in his policies that are about him and not about the country. for example, he doesn't think that a sitting president should
be indicted. now, if brett kavanaugh is picked, it will cause people to question is that why trump chose him? and that's a real problem, because we need people to have faith in the court. >> this is something we'll all be concentrating on very closely. thanks, mimi. kelly, as well, thank you to kelly at the white house. a mystery in the united kingdom. two more people poisoned by the nerve agent novichok, which almost killed a former russian spy and his daughter in an attack in march. that story is coming up. surprised? it's called always discreet boutique. it looks and fits like my underwear. i know what you're thinking. how can something this pretty protect? hidden inside is a super absorbent core that quickly turns liquid to gel for incredible protection.
well, it's a whole day's worth of love songs. 300 minutes of baby videos. or, it's a million chat messages. a gig goes a long way. that's why xfinity mobile lets you pay for data one gig at a time. and with millions of wifi hotspots included, you'll pay less for data. it's a new kind of network designed to save you money. click, call or visit a store today.
welcome bam. now to engengland. officials are investigating as two people fight for their lives, poisoned by the same they have been agent used against a former russian spy and his daughter months ago. the latest victims were found unconscious in their home on saturday and were believed to have overdosed on drugs initially. it was later determined they were poisoned by novichok, the nerve agent used against the russian spy and his daughter in march. the kremlin denied involvement and released a statement on wednesday saying it categorically denies being involved. police cordoned off several areas, noting the similarities with the skripal poisoning.
>> we are not in a position to say whether the they have been agent was from the same batch the skripals were exposed to. the possibility these two investigations might be linked is clearly a line of inquiry. it is important, however, that the investigation is led by the evidence available and the facts alone. >> the thing in common is novichok. let's see how deadly it can be. the russian word novichok means newcomer. it refers to a group of advanced nerve agents developed by the soviet union in the '70s and '80s. western intelligence agencies didn't even know about this class of nerve agents until a russian scientist defected, reporting on violations of the 1990 chemical weapons accord. according to experts, the way it works is frighteningly simple. once entering the body, the chemical blocks neuro transmitters that include the
muscles. the muscles get stuck in the on position, cramping up over and over again. a person exposed to novichok convulsing and has severe difficulty breathing and their heart slowly stops. there is several variations. one is eight times more deadly than vx, which you may remember is the chemical that's used by the alleged north korean agents to kill kim jong-un's half brother at an airport in february. the really horrifying part is that the standard nerve agent an antidote is almost useless against knovichok. the exact chemical makeup is still a closely guarded secret, but it's a binary agent, which means two separate chemicals, harmless on their own, are combined to make the deadly
toxin. the ingredients are not on a banned substance list and one of them is believed to be a powder, which makes it difficult to detect. experts believe it was designed to get around standard nato detection. joining me now is our reporter live in england, where the two latest victims of novichok are being treated. kelly, what do police know about this latest poisoning, and do they think this couple was targeted? >> reporter: they're not ruling it out, ali. we do hope to learn more in the next 15 to 20 minutes or so. a press conference has been called with police, health officials and hospital officials. hopefully we'll find out a little bit more. what we have heard today is that this appears to be an accidental poisoning, a term you don't hear very often. but the theory being that these two people, with no known connections to the former russian spy and his daughter, no known reasons to be targeted by
anyone with novichok, came across trace amounts of this deadly nerve agent, and were somehow exposed to it. they also said earlier today, the home secretary said that they were exposed to this trace amount of novichok in a place that had not previously been known to be infected or contaminated with it. you'll recall, ali, for four months, specialist crews decontaminated several sites connected to the skripals, the two poisoned in march. this exposure happened outside of those areas. they're still trying to figure out where, ali. >> all right. they cordoned off more areas. what is that about? is there some risk of exposure environmentally? >> reporter: well, i suppose possibly on the surface. government officials are telling us the risk to the public is
very, very low. they've cordoned off five areas, a park, a church, and a couple of residences where these two victims were living or visiting, as well as a trash can. they're now searching these areas, trying to decide whether or not they were exposed in one of these areas. one of the theorys, by the way, ali, is that perhaps they were walking through the park, which has been cordoned off, found maybe something discarded by the person who attacked the skripals back in march. possibly some contaminated gloves, a coat, something like that. just one of the theorys being batted around right now. but government officials are going out of their way to try to reassure the public and say there's no massive risk to the public and they point out that in the past, four months, no other people have been exposed. these are the first two to be exposed since the skripals and the policeman who cared for them
after the poisons. >> we'll stay updated with you. kelly, thank you very much. president trump said he wants to cut legal immigration in half, because low-skilled foreign workers are costing american jobs and wages. that's just simply not true. the numbers show the u.s. needs more legal immigration, not less. and i'll give you the reasons why, next. you're watching "velshi and ruhle" on msnbc. still nervous about finding a new apartment? yeah... but popping these things really helps me...relax. please don't, i'm saving those for later. at least you don't have to worry about renters insurance. just go to geico.com. geico helps with renters insurance? good to know. been doing it for years. that's really good to know.
i'll check 'em out. get to know geico. and see how easy homeowners and renters insurance can be. your hair is so soft! did you use head and shoulders two in one? i did mom. wanna try it? yes. it intensely moisturizes your hair and scalp and keeps you flake free. manolo? look at my soft hair. i should be in the shot now too. try head and shoulders two in one. i knew at that exact moment, whatever it takes, wherever i have to go...i'm beating this. my main focus was to find a team of doctors that work together. when a patient comes to ctca, they're meeting a team of physicians that specialize in the management of cancer. breast cancer treatment is continuing to evolve. and i would say that ctca is definitely on the cusp of those changes.
patients can be overwhelmed ... we really focus on taking the time with each individual patient so they can choose the treatment appropriate for them. the care that ctca brings is the kind of care i've wanted for my patients. being able to spend time with them, have a whole team to look after them is fantastic. i empower women with choices. it's not just picking a surgeon. it's picking the care team, and feeling secure where you are. surround yourself with the team of breast cancer experts at cancer treatment centers of america. visit cancercenter.com/breast come hok., babe. nasty nighttime heartburn? try new alka-seltzer pm gummies.
the only fast, powerful heartburn relief plus melatonin so you can fall asleep quickly. ♪ oh, what a relief it is! ♪ the kenya tea development agency is an organization that is owned by tea farmers. every week we sell this tea, we get paid in multiple accounts. we were looking for a bank to provide a safe and efficient technology platform to pay our farmers. citi was the only one that was able to ensure that this was done seamlessly. and today, at the touch of a button, all the farmers are able to get their money, pay school fees and improve their standard of living. with citi, we see a bright future for our farmers and their families. ♪
here are the top stories we're watching right now. let's look at the dow, it's up about 110 points. pardon me, higher. asian stocks climbed today, they closed lower today as the u.s. is set to follow through with plans to impose tariffs on $34 billion worth of chinese imports at midnight. beijing vowed to retaliate the moment the tariffs take effect. secretary of state mike pompeo is headed back to north korea today, expected to meet kim jong-un to check the progress made on denuclearization since the summit between president trump and kim, not sure any progress was made. it will be pompeo's fourth meeting with north korean officials in three months. a storm dumped up to ten
inches of rain in houston on wednesday, prompting officials to close roid roads. the immigration demonstrator arrested for scaling the statue of liberty is due in court. she reportedly said she would not come down until children separated from their parents at the u.s.-mexico border were reunited. president trump says he wants legal immigration cut in half, because low-skilled foreign workers are costing american jobs and wages. that is simply not true. when we discussed the immigration debate in our country, detractors say they fear an influx of immigrants that leads to a loss in jobs for native born workers. yet take a look at this. we currently have 6.7 million job openings, and 6.4 million available workers to fill them. the problem is that the
available workers aren't either properly trained for the open jobs or they don't live close to where the jobs are. and if this trend continues, it may indicate we need more immigration, not less. the number of births in the united states dropped 2% between 2016 and 2017. so the lowest fertility rate in 30 years. this is common in almost all developed countries. as people get more prosperous, they have fewer children. by 2035, without immigrants, the centers for disease control estimates the working age population in the united states could drop by almost 8 million from recent figures. we need imgrants to fill the open jobs in our country, unless we all start having more children. when immigrants come in, they pay taxes. the louisville metro area was studied to provide an economic snap shop of foreign born workers. immigrants earned $1.6 billion
in income in 2016 and paid $430 million in taxes. another study from the national academies of science, engineering and medicine found that first generation immigrants can impose costs on government, but as adults, the children turn into the strongest economic contributors in the u.s. population, paying more in taxes than even other americans. here's how one former president framed immigration in america. >> through this golden door has come millions of men and women. these families came here to work. they didn't ask what this country could do for them but what they could do to make this refuge the greatest home of freedom in history. let's pledge to each other that we can make america great again. >> that of course is former president ronald reagan. joining me now is senior fellow at the center of budget priorities, jared burnstein. thanks for being here. we've bandied this topic around, but the headline here is that
there are more jobs than workers. that's a good headline. but look 10 or 20 years down the line, and that will read very differently. we're going to be short of workers if president trump, listening to his immigration adviser steven miller, get their way. we need to solve this problem of 6.4 million available workers who are not trained for the opening jobs. but in fact, without immigration, america suffers. >> i think the keenumer y ee ee number is without immigration, the labor force would shrink by millions. so that is the key fak tocfacto. it's the fact that the baby boomers, and i'm among them, are aging out of the population. when the baby boomers were in full force, labor supply was growing at 2% per year. now it's growing at about half a
percent perre eyear. so one-fourth that rate. so there's real pressure on the supply of labor which is a key input to economic growth. basically, and this is something our viewers are very much into it, the immigration program under the trump administration is based purely on anti-immigration, on xenophobia, on myths of what immigrants do and not sound economics. >> in fact, i'm just putting up a graphic here. the labor department estimates the over 70 population will vise to 31.8 million by 2020. that's a 38% increase from the 2010 number. what we need is young, vibrant workers who pay into the system. we don't have younger workers paying into things like social security and other things, that really creates a problem. >> yeah, and i think another piece of that is that as we become more productive, and it's true that productivity has slowed down, but it's still
positive, we may have fewer workers per retiree, but those workers will be more productive. one way to ensure that we have more productive workers is to be more welcoming of immigrants because, and this is again widely misunderstood. the flow of immigrants into this country over the past 15 years, has favored more skilled immigrants, not least skilled. the flows from the less skilled or less educated south, say mexico, have really flattened. and so if you actually look at the education component of inflowing immigrants, they tend to be more highly educated and productive. >> steven miller cites a study from harvard, which has largely been debunked, that would indicate low-skill workers and refugees, in this economy we're in, we are actually able to absorb a lot of these people.
we need low-skilled immigrants as well as high-skilled immigrants. >> okay. so we happen to have a very tight labor market right now. i agree with everything you just said. but you also have to have an immigration policy that can be good for america when the unemployment rate is higher. so you have to look at immigrant competition with native born workers if you want to get into that part of the argument, through all kinds of labor markets. what we find is that more often than not, immigrants complement, not substitute, for native born workers. that is they help promote occupational upgrading for workers who were born here. if anything, when they're competing, they're competing with imgramigrants before they . >> jared burnstein, thank you. let's go to that story in thailand. rescue workers are trying to free 12 boys trapped in a cave.
monsoon rains are expected within days, and they could flood the pocket where the boys are holed up. we're going live to thailand. you're watching "velshi and ruhle" on msnbc. but nothing says "we got married" like a 12 ounce piece of scrap metal. yo! we got married! honk if you like joint assets. now you're so busy soaking up all this attention, you don't see the car in front of you. and if i can crash your "perfect day", imagine what i can do to the rest of 'em. so get allstate, and be better protected from mayhem. like me.
it could take weeks, if not months to get these out. our reporter has been following since the beginning. janice, what is the latest developments in the plans to get them out possibly before this rain hits? >> reporter: well, this is a critical 24 hours, ali, with the heavy rains that are looming in the forecast. the pumps have been working 24/7 to try and get the water out. they've pumped out millions of gallons. the water level is now at a point where roughly one mile of the nearly three-mile journey is now walkable. there were other parts where they would be able to float with the help of the navy divers. but it's those points where they would need diving skills that remain the greatest risk. the boys can't swim, and there's also this threat of panic. but there is also a change in energy here tonight. there's a lot more activity.
they've been in full preparations behind me. there have been a lot of oxygen canisters brought in. so there is this sense this is a limited window of opportunity. the pumps have been lowering the water level roughly half an inch an hour. once the rains come, they'll rise five times faster. something the governor said last night, when this evacuation attempt gets under way, if it does get under way in the next 48 hours, it's not a guarantee that they would bring all the boys out at the same time. there were two or three of the boys and the coach, who are apparently not strong enough. they're malnourishemalnourished. they've been underground for 12 days. so they don't want to take any risks. ali? >> joining us now is a volunteer diver who has been assisting with the rescue efforts. he was on the ground earlier this week. he's now back in bangkok
standing by. can you explain what the challenges are for divers and rescuers? >> hi, yeah, ali. really the challenge is the distance from the entrance of the cave to reach to the location where the kids are. at the beginning, when i was there last week with the cave is not fully flooded yet. we have to walk from the entrance to the third chamber, where that's the command base inside the cave about three kilometers. and then from there, we have to walk another one kilometer inside for the starting point where we start to dive. but now, if the cave is fully flooded, like last thursday or friday last week, the distance is really increasing from two
kilometers to reach them, it will become five kilometers. but the good news right now is the distance from the entrance of the cave to the third chamber, mostly dry right now. they can walk in. so right now, the challenge is just between the location of the kids to the third chamber. that takes about two kilometers. >> janice, is the fear with monsoon rains that the pocket that these boys are in is in danger? is there danger that they're going to run out of space because of water? >> reporter: well, from what i -- >> [ overlapping speakers ] . >> janice first. then i'll come back to you. >> okay. >> reporter: just to interject, that is part of the fear, because the water levels would rise so fast, probably about six inches an hour in heavy rains, which is inevitable, there is the sense that what little
comfort the boys have been able to manage in this cave, the bit of higher ground that they have on this rock shelf would be quickly erased. and that there is the risk that that chamber could become fully flooded. >> let's talk about the degree to which rescuers are able to do things to get these boys able to help themselves. we know some of them can't swim. they'll have to be under water for some of the rescue, some of them going out. how much can you train people like that? you're andiver, so this is difficult but normal for you. can they be trained to assist in their own rescue? >> i believe they can be trained. they don't need to be trained to be a scuba diver, but they need to be taught how to use the equipment to breathe. so they don't need to swim or learn how to swim, because the
dive support team will be carrying them out and support them all the way through. so the key thing that they need to understand and learn how to use is, is the equipment that helps them breathe. and make sure that they need to have understanding the communication between the support diver and and the kids to make sure they don't panic, or if they panic, how they can support them or how to react when the kid is panic in the water. so that is the risk. but if you're talking about the skillset they need to learn, it's possible to learn very quickly, especially those kids are athletes. they are not very small kids. they are teenagers. so i believe they can be taught very, very quickly. >> so somebody who has been inside that cave, what is your best option right now? what do you think the best
option is for getting them out? >> the best option is try to pump out the water as much as we can. if the water levels go down, they can actually walk out or at least get out without having to scuba dive, that would be the best option. >> all right. thank you very much for joining us. janice continues to be at the scene for us. we'll update with you later on. thank you to both of you. coming up next, the trump administration is withdrawing obama era guidance on diversity in schools. we'll take a look at what that means, next. but first, a former trump lawyer -- the former trump lawyer michael cone, is he getting ready to flip on president trump? he's no longer saying he's a personal lawyer to president trump. on linked in, his bio just says attorney.
parts a and b and want more coverage, guess what? you could apply for a medicare supplement insurance plan whenever you want. no enrollment window. no waiting to apply. that means now may be a great time to shop for an aarp medicare supplement insurance plan, insured by unitedhealthcare insurance company. medicare doesn't cover everything. and like all standardized medicare supplement insurance plans, these help cover some of what medicare doesn't pay. so don't wait. call now to request your free
decision guide. it could help you find the aarp medicare supplement plan that works for you. these types of plans have no networks, so you get to choose any doctor who accepts medicare patients. rates are competitive, and they're the only plans of their kind endorsed by aarp. remember - these plans let you apply all year round. so call today. because now's the perfect time to learn more. go long. president trump is reportedly narrowed down his search for a supreme court pick to three individuals. brett kavanaugh, amy coney barrett, and raymond kethledge.
his pick will likely end up deciding the vote on a number of important issues, including affirmative action. just this week, the trump administration struck a wlblow the policy, encouraging schools not to consider race in their decision. this is a reversal of the obama era policy of promoting diversity on campus. so what is affirmative action? at its core, it's a series of principles and procedures designed to rectify and prevent discrimination, particularly in schools and in the workplace. the origins of our current understanding of the concept, comes from president kennedy's 1961 executive order on equal employment opportunity. the contractor will take affirmative action to ensure that applicants are employed and employees are treated without regard to their race, creed, color, or national origin. that's expanded sims eed since.
but the obama era policy goes into detail about the benefits in diversity in education, ensuring students are provided with learning environments co diverse backgrounds is not just a lofty ideal. these benefits great contribute to the educational, economic, and clique life of this nation. but jeff sessions says, quote, we are restoring the rule of law. that's why we began reskining guidance documents that were issued improperly. at least on paper, sessions appears to disagree with the method in which the obama administration set these and other guidelines. but of course the reality of this issue is much more politically fraught. affirmative action has been controversial among voters since its inception. a 2016 gallup poll found that 70% of americans believe
colleges should not consider race during the application process, for example. critics of the program argue that making decisions based on race or gender prevents a truly egalitarian society. of course those critics often ignore the ways in which institutionalized prejudice prevents the very same goal. and that's to say nothing of those whose opposition to the program may be rooted in genuine prejudice of their own or the fact that they feel like their admissions have been put aside because of affirmative action. many critics of affirmative action wish to believe that we live in a post-racial society and therefore these programs are no longer necessary. but the racial wage gap exists and is getting worse. black men still make 22% less than white men with the same level of education and experience. black women make 34% less. with me is catherine layman, the head of civil rights of obama's
education department and the chair of the u.s. commission on civil rights. you're quote in "the los angeles times" as saying, taking away that guidance undermines the steps toward equity." tell me about this. >> thank you for having me today. the rescinding of guidance is a decision to withdraw information from the american public about what our civil rights laotian are, how to comply with them, and the way the federal government will enforce them. it's a serious mistake and sends a deeply dangerous signal to all of our school communities that this administration doesn't believe in, is not here to support diversity and inclusion in our school communities. >> okay, two things. there have been several rulings by the supreme court over the years, going back to the '70s, the latest was after the obama-era guidance came out, i think it was the university of texas, where the court affirms the benefit to the nation of
affirmative action. >> that's right. >> attorney general sessions seems to draw a different conclusion. >> he sure does. but there's been an unbroken line over more than four decades from the u.s. supreme court supporting, clarifying, confirming the ability to use race in college and university admissions and in k-12 systems. that unbroken line comes from the need for and the academic interest in achieving diversity in our schools so that we're educating our students and our school communities toward the workforce that our students will grow up to work in and live in, toward the communities they will be leaving and thriving in. so we want to make sure that our students are able to be full people who are fully educated in diverse communities. >> as a layperson, not a lawyer, not a civil rights expert, explain to me the various goals of affirmative action. one is repairing things that
have been wrong in the past. on another, it is ensuring fair treatment for people who are otherwise institutionally discriminated against, including women. and on the third level, the rulings by the supreme court indicate that it's actually societally beneficial to prepare students for an environment in which they are going to work. these are different ideological concepts. >> they absolutely are, but you're absolutely right also about what three, i would say four buckets are of interest in achieving diversity in schools. the remaining one that you didn't mention is the school's academic interest in making sure they have the population they're interested in educating. that's a core interest that the supreme court has long recognized as well. the reason all of those interests come into play is that we want to educate the whole person. we want to recognize who each member of the school community is and be sure that we're supporting that student's individual learning as well as the collective learning
together. all of those are critically important to being able to be excellent at math, to be excellent as a thinker and a learner as well as to be able to take that education and apply it once in the workforce as well. >> catherine layman, thank you for joining me. coming up on msnbc, right now secretary of state mike pompeo is on his way to north korea again to meet with kim jong-un. we'll dig into what pompeo wan possibly accomplish while he's there. you're watching "velshi & ruhle" on msnbc.
>> i'm alex trebek. if you're age 50 to 85, please listen carefully. the lock i want to talk to you about isn't the one on your door. it's a rate lock for your life insurance that guarantees your rate can never go up at any time, for any reason. many policies don't have one but you can get a lifetime rate lock through the colonial penn program. this plan was designed for people on a fixed income
with coverage options for just $9.95 a month. that's less than 35 cents a day. your rate is locked in for life and coverage can never be cancelled. your acceptance is guaranteed. you cannot be turned down because of your health. call for your information kit and gift. both are free, with no obligation. i've been making blades here at gillette for 20 years. there's a lot of innovation that goes into making america's #1 shave. precision machinery and high-quality materials from around the world. nobody else even comes close. now starting at $7.99. gillette. the best a man can get. by staying in rhythm. and to keep up this pace, i drink boost optimum. boost optimum with 5 in 1 advanced nutrition helps support muscle, energy, bone, normal immune function, and vision. boost optimum. be up for life.
we all want to know you know, the new, new thing. with xfinity's retail stores, you can now see the latest. want to test drive the latest devices? be our guest. want to save on mobile? just ask. want to demo the latest innovations and technology? do it here. come see how we're making things simple, easy, and awesome. plus come in today and ask about xfinity mobile, a new kind of network designed to save you money. visit your local xfinity store today.
thanks for watching this hour of "velshi & ruhle." i'm ali velshi. i'll see you back at 3:00 eastern and 11:00 p.m. eastern. right now, "andrea mitchell reports." right now, a british couple in critical condition today, both testing positive for the same nerve agent that nearly killed a former russian spy and his daughter in march. >> to see two more people exposed to novichok in the uk is obviously deeply disturbing. the police i know will be leaving no stone unturned in their investigation in relation to what has happened. race against time. rescuers in thailand searching for the fastest and safest way to rescue a team of young boys trapped in a cave miles from an escape route. >> this is very technical and
very advanced. >> and dangerous. >> yes. and high drama. a woman scales the statue of liberty, vowing to stay there until all migrant children are reunited with their parents, forcing tourists to be evacuated from the landmark on independence day. >> park rangers came running and just screaming, everybody get out, everybody get out! >> we didn't even spend more than ten minutes there. it was just nothing. >> i think there's a right way of protesting, a legal way of protesting. she just ruined our whole trip. good day, everyone, i'm andrea mitchell in washington. it sounds like a spy novel except it's real and deadly dangerous. two british citizens now in critical condition after being exposed to the same deadly nerve agent that nearly killed a former russian spy and his daughter earlier this year in the same area. that incident causing a