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tv   AM Joy  MSNBC  July 21, 2018 7:00am-9:00am PDT

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that's a wrap for this hour. see you at noon eastern. stay right where you are. a.m. joy is starting right now with joy reed. >> a little look at jeffrey. he's skipping. >> he's having fun. frank. >> then he should try courtesying. that's fun too. >> he reminds me of you, may rond. >> raymond. yes, you did. >> good morning. welcome to a.m. joy. remember everybody loves raymond, the hit tv series made ray romano. biggest draw at the celebrity golf championship back in 2006. despite donald trump's appearance. also in attendance at that tournament, adult film star stormy daniels and karen mcdougal. former playboy model.
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ten years and one celebrity run later, that would come back to haunt trump. at that tournament where those two women each had sexual encounters with him. a one off she would describe as less than spectacular. in mcdougal's case a month long affair. both women would also claim they were the recipients of hush money during the presidential campaign to keep the affairs secret. donald trump has denied any knowledge of payments made to stormy daniels or karen mcdougal, but michael cohen apparently has receipts. "new york times" reported this week that cohen secretly recorded a conversation between himself and donald trump in which they discussed payments to mrs. mcdougal or to the national inquirer for her story. just two months before the presidential election. by the way, contrary to what donald trump may want, we will not be bearing off the metastasizing helsinki battle.
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we will break down this weekend and talk with bill, one of the men trump considered handing over to putin, but for now, let's bring in sam. former trump campaign adviser. michael, attorney for stormy daniels. gentlemen, thank you for being here. i'm going to start with you on this sam. donald trump this morning of course woke up and started tweet accident, saying it's inconceivable the government would break in a lawyer's office early in the morning. goes on to say even more inconceivable than a lawyer taping a client. only unheard of and perhaps illegal. should donald trump have been surprised that michael cohen taped their calls. >> i think he could be surprised that michael would tape. it wasn't a call. it was in person. he should be surprised however the way michael was treated, what michael was being asked to do during the campaign, michael shaugt thought he had to protect himself. he had not been treated well
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through the campaign and multiple iterations of management. with that said, and going by reporting of emily fox, having spoken to some people and speaking to my attorney, i don't think this was the right move by president's legal team to have leaked this tape. >> so you think these tapes were leaked by donald trump's side planny davis who michael has hired somebody steve bannon reached out to when he was starting how to process. our position, position to people that don't think the president should be impeached for collusion.
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possibly mueller a lot of these could be seen as destruction. >> could leaking the tapes influence the outcome of the investigation in your view. >> not in my -- i think there's a legal question about it. i can't want to say it is. >> sure. let me ask michael that question. i don't know a, if you agree with sam that the likelihood with some of the reporting images. talked about this last night. that this actually was leaked by the trump side for whatever reason. do you agree that is the most likely the case. >> no, i completely disagree. it's pretty obvious this tape was leaked by michael cohen cease side and in my view was a final shot across the bow if you will at donald trump to send the message that time is running
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out. and if donald trump does not bring michael cohen into the tent or try to protect him, serious consequences are going to result. i completely disagree that it makes no sense for the white house to have leaked this tape. i think it was leaked by michael cohen's side for the reason i mentioned earlier. let me just say this, joy, that old adage you live by the sword, you die by the sword. donald trump knew for the better parking lot of a decade that michael cohen had a tendency to tape record conversations with adversaries and others and to hold on to those recordings. he knew that. in fact michael cohen bragged about it various times to donald trump and others. should come as no surprise to donald trump that he's included within the group that was taped. >> back on that, if in fact this was a sign from michael cohen that he is prepared to flip. there is some reporting out there that he's had it. right? he spoke to al sharpton for a couple of hours over the last
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couple of days. this is what reverend al said. i'm sorry to switch on my producers. this is what reverend al said. >> i think michael cohen has made it very clear to me this morning, he is not going to be some sacrificial lamb for something that was done wrongly. did he say he was cooperating, no. did he say how that was going to manifest, no, but he very clearly said that he is disappointed in the president where he's turned -- how he's turned out in terms of attacking the media. that he wanted me to know. that he was going to do what was right for the country as a pa patriot. you know, you get the sense he has done a lot of soul searching. i left there feeling he is definitely going to say what he knows and means what he says. >> whoever ends up leaking this tape, do you believe, sam, that michael cohen is now going to
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turn on and flip on donald trump. >> well, i certainly do as a result of interview to george ste stephen on l stephen. with that said. we as republicans don't necessarily have the president's personal life. i think republicans specifically, evangelicals, we made a deal. >> they'll standby. >> yes. sort of foreign policy and things like that that we believe this is not the perfect vessel, but this is -- we're getting the perfect return on the investment. so that's what i think. and i think michael has to do what is best for michael. i can tell you that once again, president's legal team should have thought of ramifications from the legal point of view and from what possibly happens if
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let's say jerry is a chair of house judiciary. >> after the elections. let's talk about some of the legal consequences potentially, michael: you represent the other woman who was at that 2006 golf tournament, stormy daniels who was the other woman allegedly paid for her silence. in your view, what are the legal consequences of at least getting confirmation that donald trump in the months before the election at least discussed openly discussed with his then lawyer the idea of the other woman karen mcdougal being paid. >> i want to make a couple things clear. this is not the only tape with donald trump's voice on it with michael cohen. i know that for a fact. i want to be really clear about it. that's why i demanded release of all of the, what i coined at the time, the trump tapes back in late may. and we repeated that demand. in my view, all of these audio recordings should be release to the american people. from a legal perspective, the
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issue is if donald trump knew that michael cohen was going to be making payments on his behalf or others were going to be making payments on his behalf, in order to influence the 2016 election, that may in fact constitute evidence of direct campaign finance violations which can be criminal in nature. it can also provide evidence relating to money laundering, bank fraud, wire fraud and a host of other potential crimes or charges relating to that conduct. i want to go back to something that was touched on. thus far t only person i've seen donald trump show any loyalty to in his life is vladimir putin unfortunately. it's a very short list. it's a short list of one. it should have been a short list of two and the second person on that list should have been michael cohen. if there was anyone on the face of the planet that donald trump should have made sure was in the tenth, made sure was protected,
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made sure was loved watered and cared for it should have been michael cohen and he didn't do that. the result of that is going to be disastrous for the ptd do you know the nature of other discussions. >> i'm not at liberty to get in details of those conversations now. there's multiple tapes. there was a host of evidence that was seized in connection with the raids. that evidence at least a copy of which has been returned to michael cohen. there's nothing stopping michael cohen from releasing that information. dyville we're going to do it. >> davis, the attorney for michael cohen tweeted out there's an ongoing
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investigation. do you think date of servihe is john of representing michael cohen. would you ever consider representing michael cohen. >> well, i already asked me about that yesterday. and i said that i would consider it. i want to be really clear because there's only a limited set of facts or circumstances under which i could or would do that. it would necessitate obviously michael cohen being dismissed from the current litigation between him and my client. he's a co-defendant with donald trump. we would have to settle him out. there would have to be very tight parameters around that representation. we would have to have a waiver from my client who i think would ultimately provide it. it would have to be in writing. the only way i would agree to do that. i want to be really, really clear about this, joy. the only way i would agree to do it is 100% confidence that michael cohen was ready to do the right thing, fully disclose
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what he knew about the president, and if he sought my assistance in bringing that information to the american people and putting it all on the table for people to see. under those limited set of circumstances, i would consider it. >> >> you've talked very open about donald trump jokes and not being loyal to them. do you think that ultimately donald trump's biggest regret is going to be mistreating michael cohen. >> it could be. all he had to do was give michael a position in the white house. it didn't even have to be in the west wing. could have been eob. there are many other people who got positions that were not around early on in the campaign, but in fact working against this president and his campaign. i was there. one of the main reasons michael did not get the position i repeatedly said is because jared kushner lobbied against it.
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michael gave good advice. i recommend you do not bring jarred because you can have a lot of exposure. so when you say look, he hasn't been too many i would say. he's been overly loyal to jarred. that could also be part of the downfall here when we find out. once again, i think davis may even perhaps come out saying we didn't leak this tape. if he says that, that gives a lot of exposure to the trump team which is why i was very surprised by this. as opposed to many others, i said from the beginning that rudy was doing a good job. this could be a big mistake. >> on the rudy giuliani front. he's been critical. what do you make of his statements attempting to mitigate the impact of this tape. >> i thought they were dumb quite honestly. i don't understand what he's doing. i continue to be perplexed by exactly what rudy giuliani is doing. he used to be a great lawyer. he used to be a good
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spokesperson. i think he's been nothing, but a walking disaster for the president and for their legal approach to this. i don't understand why he would say that. there's no way this tape is exsculpt tory. provides evidence of mr. trump's innocence. that's a ridiculous assertion. thank you both for become here. coming up next, latest on treez treason week. as we go to break. the clip you saw at the top of the show, feature this is little
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have you ever seen anything like that before in american government? is it still going on? am i asking the right questions here? do i have that right? sounds a little nuts. fair to say. why is this happening. why is that? . we have some breaking news. the white house has announced on twitter that vladimir putin is coming to the white house in the fall. say that again.
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>> vladimir putin coming -- >> did i hear you. >> yes yeah. >> okay. >> yes. that's going to be special. after deeming his behind closed door summit with vladimir putin a huge success, insisting russia was no longer targeting the u.s., and dubbing the media the real enemy of the people. donald trump invited the russian president to a second summit. this time in washington, d.c. right before the midterm elections. after the director of national intelligence reacted to that news live with andrea mitchell, advisers were in a uproar according to "washington post." one senior white house official saying quote, coats, coats. plot to destroy democracy. former cia analyst. and jill, former assistant watergate special prosecutor. i haven't seen you and spoken to you in a long time 6789 come to you first to get your reaction
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to the fact that after what everyone agrees was a complete debacle in helsinki, donald trump would like to have vladimir putin back and invite him to the white house. a place i don't believe he is invited or closest allies. >> i don't understand. i agree with dan coats. this is something that is unprecedented what the president is doing with putin. he's playing a deferea game to . hasn't done this to our allies. let alone coming to terms with working with opposing political parties here in the united states. the way he's treating putin and the way and the interaction that he's had with him, especially in helsinki and now inviting him to the white house. this isn't a series of negotiations as it's played off to be. to me, this is really about putin's control over trump and the fact trump is being manipulated and allowing himself to do so. that i think is ultimately why this is happening.
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>> malcolm, not only that, but we're also learning this week, first of all we're hearing the red me readouts of what happened. russians were announcing. donald trump's only administration doesn't yet know what was said in those meetings. apparently the russians do and they're starting to put it out there. now we learned according to defense one on wednesday after secret trump meeting, russia offers to resume military relations. russia set to warm up military e relations with the united states pursuant to the agreement reached monday between the presidents. that's what russian defense ministry said tuesday. surprising officials at the pentagon who were still waiting to hear what came out of the closed door meeting. in congress, which banned u.s. russian military congress tour years ago. your thoughts, malcolm. >> i'm not going to be hyperbolic when i say the russian state has co-opted the
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united states government's administration. the trump administration right now is a junior partner to vladimir putin's kremlin. and the only way that could happen is two factors had to happen. i wrote about this in my book. one the russians executed a very long-term multiyear plan to co-op social media. and they have literally reengined the mind set of one-third of the american public through donald trump's mouth. then on the other hand now you have donald trump having secret negotiations, cutting secret deals which we had already seen when he had the cry director and director of national intelligence meet with three russian intelligence officers, two of them were sanctioned, but you have these meetings occurring where the entirety of the united states government has no idea what occurred. the russians are now leading the united states around by a leash. let me tell you something, we may not be talking legal tree n
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treason, but we are talking a betrayal to the oath of office. the president is no longer protecting and defending the constitution of the united states. >> quickly to say with you. you were the person that warned us and reason this show didn't do the e-mails because you did warn us on this very show, you can't trust anything leaked through russian intelligence and when it comes out on wikileaks you can't take it as gospel. we stayed clear of those e-mails because of what you told us. you have the military, according to the "new york times" completely blind sided. we received no further direction we have been operating under. no idea what he was going to say. now, can we trust the readouts that we are getting from the russian russians as to what was said.
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>> that can be completely changed. no idea what was said in there. readout we're getting is vladimir putin's readout as he reads his orders out to donald trump. trump is remaining within the parameters the of that. see right now all trump wants is pageant of bringing putin to the united states. showing him our military parade. and essentially supporting ourselves to a hostile power. let me tell you, just because we discussed those e-mails, that was two years ago, right? >> that we actually bought that stuff up. the media is only getting it now and we see guys like congressman, former cia. guy i really like. suddenly saying, hey, wait a minute. maybe something is going on between this president and vladimir putin. the rest of the nation, 60% of the nation, already knows donald trump is being led by a nose ring by his case officer. the exkgb officer.
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you now have republicans. it's easy to talk about this being donald trump. you do have the republican party. we're going to talk later in the show about the connections that the russians sought with the nra with the religious right. infiltrating the party by other means. we know from the cia's own disclosures that the russian -- that the rnc was hacked too. just didn't release anything from their side. the senate had to come out and take up a unanimous vote. it's pretty extraordinary in american history having to take a vote rejecting the idea of allowing a hostile foreign power of allowing vladimir putin's russia to interrogate americans, including our former ambassador. somebody who you know participated in the investigation of richard nixon, did you ever think you would see the day the united states senate would have to take a vote saying no, we would not want to send our ambassador to russia to be interrogated. >> i never thought i would say
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that president had gotten lower than he had when the access hollywood tapes were released. every day it goes lower and lower. i think we have to stop saying things are unprecedented because first of all, that appeals to trump's base. they like that everything he does is unprecedented. we have to talk about the danger that is raised by unprecedented behavior. this is definitely a danger to our democracy. and inviting the burglar in to our country and into the white house where he can get firsthand look at how to do whatever he wants to do against us is really wrong. and like malcolm, i don't think it's hyperbole to say we have had enough warnings that we have to take action. a lot of people were upset about how much of a warning this was, but that's all i was saying when i compared this to some of the
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most horrible things in our history is that we have been warned and we have to take action to defend ourselves against what is going on. >> yes. >> i hope we will. >> and you're not alone in makimak making those warnings very, very explicit. i want to come to you on this. dan coats who is the director of national intelligence also compared what we are dealing with ongoing threats from russia to 9/11. dan coats talking about the potential threats ahead of us from russia. >> i'm concerned about and worried at night. i'm concerned about a cyber 9/11. >> what would that look like. >> let's say you shutdown wall street for a week. what does that do to world markets and people's investments? let's say you crash bank of america or wells fargo or whatever and all of a sudden people are saying, wait a minute, what happened to my account? what happened to my retirement.
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>> as a former cia analyst, how worried are you about the potential for russia to attack us using cyber warfare and doing some of the things dan coats called a potential cyber 9/11. >> i completely agree with dan coats. i said on msnbc a little over a year ago when i was talking with katie that i felt like this was a little bit of how the intelligence community felt before 9/11 where they're warning the government, there's action that's not being taken. and right now, you couldn't get this administration's attention on this to do something against russia. russia probed the electrical grid back in march, we know. so i think there's a completely valid bell to be ringing at this point. if we're not doing something to short the defenses against this, where he -- we will be in another situation where we're going to see some type of, you know, catastrophe possibly by the hand of russia feeling
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behind the curveball on this. that is very concerning to me. >> yes. we're going to be talking on the show about the rights to the upcoming election. remember just one of the potential targets that experts have been concerned about. sticking around. thank you very much. coming up. sex lies and espionage, that's next. when heartburn hits... fight back fast with tums smoothies. it neutralizes stomach acid at the source. tum tum tum tum tums... smoothies... ...and introducing new tums sugar-free.
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before you do any project big or small, pg&e will come out and mark your gas and electric lines so you don't hit them when you dig. call 811 before you dig, and make sure that you and your neighbors are safe. amid story after story after story after story after story of donald trump and administration's dismantling of democracy. the existence continues, protesters gathered outside the white house to welcome trump home after he kissed putin's ring in helsinki. telling him what they really think of his performance there. did the same in time square here in new york city and today passionate kids gathering in several cities for the youth climate march. d.c. event is getting started right now. up next on a.m. joy, look at the latest russian to get indicted. stick around. and packages. and it's also a story about people.
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>> i believe i would get alistening very nicely with putin. okay. i mean when we have the strength. i don't think you need the sanctions. i think we would get along very, very well. >> the woman in that clip was
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maria butina. russian national indicted this week. just hours after donald trump's statement to vladimir putin in helsinki. took his word over that of the american intelligence community. joining the panel now. journalism professor on. i'll start with you here. she has been getting involved since 2011. russian gun rights how it came to be that the russians took an interest in gun rights.
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i don't believe they had the equivalent of a second amendment in russia. >> no, paradox quickly putin does not allow private gun ownership in russia. what they were doing is what they always do. just exploit a devisive issue. gun violence and gun control in the u.s. i think it's very important to emphasis the years in which this is taking place. that what torsion was doing goes back at least seven years. the planning for it probably proceeds that. that butina has been actively meeting with i don't even know how many republican officials and nra members for a very long time. for those who think this is spontaneously launched around the time trump declared presidential ambitions for 2016 campaign, you're sorely mistaken. this is long running russian plot in tandem with voluntary yuan american officials and representatives to the nra.
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they were absolutely willing to sacrifice american sovereignty to jeopardize snashl security for own aides. one more final point is people need to be looking at the money. they need to be looking at donations that the nra was giving to the republicans. that's a long way to explain the republican renaissance to call out. >> that is another point. i think everyone focuses on donald trump as an individual. russians have been interested in the party for a while. to the point sara just made in 2013 is when the person david keen and republican operative run for it. traveled to something called the right to bear arms annual convention in moscow. next year, she comes to nra convention. special guest and is presentlied an nra women's luncheon. she's attended every nra convention from 2014 to 2016. some of the republicans she's been photographed with, scott walker, there he is.
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both considered potential presidential candidates. rick santorum did run for president. this guy, alexander. he claimed to be a gun activist working on behalf of the kremlin. can you tell us about that. >> no, he's not a gun rights activist working for the kremlin. he's a kremlin. he's close to the inner circle of vladimir putin. he's also very close to the russian mafia. in fact there's an indictment outstanding for him. warrant for his arrest in spain. in spain and the state prosecutor. working with the st. petersburg mafia. same mafia vladimir putin brought under control when he was liquidating the city of saint petersburg. so he appears to have been tasked out as the principal
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designate tee to come to the united states and coopt the american right using two groups, evangelicals and the national rifle association. and the group that he made up right to bear arms as sara said, there's no right to bear arms in russia. there are less than -- i think it's 700,000 hunting rifles and shotguns. you have to have state permission, registration, licensing, and total control of ammunition in that country. it's nothing. they co-opted the american right in order to bring them in to become technically undermoscow's control just like they did with every other conservative movement in europe. these do spedupes fell for it b pretty girl. >> i'm going to come to the other part. just for one more moment with sara. i have this handy little chart here. i'm going to show you on the air
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as well. all of the people that maria butina intersected with, not just donald trump who you heard her asking the question at the event. there's alexander to the right of her. you have vladimir putin out there. look up to the upper and left. up and left there is donald trump jr. who she briefly met at one of these nra conventions. she's got a lot of intersections. should donald trump jr. be worried about this indictment. >> donald trump jr. if he is you know living in a country that actually has laws that he is held accountable to should be worried for a very long time. donald trump jr. put e-mails on twitter about a year ago showing that he had elicitly conspired with russia revealing that whole meeting. i'm a little concerned he thought he could do that openly and be no consequences. other russia mafia members of the mafia/kremlin officials have
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been in plain site. that's a pattern you see throughout the republican party. donald trump jr. is not unique in this respect. now there finally are indictments, there are consequences. if that's going to continue, yes, donald trump jr. certainly somebody who should be concerned. >> let me come to you now on part two of this because there's the nra piece of it. you've written an entire book about this thing called the family and the religious right and power. quickly, at the 2016 and 2015 national prayer breakfast events, butina met with unnamed american officials and very influential russians. talk a little bit about that connection. >> yes, i think butina, you go back to 2015, four days before trump announces presidency, she writes an article for conservative magazine and says look, there's two pillars to the american right. it's social conservatives and
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she understands it's populist conservativ conservatives. nra she's reaching the populous. through the national prayer breakfast she's reaching the social conservatives. this is national prayer breakfast is run by an organization called the fellowship or the family. oldest arguably most influential christian organization in washington. specializes in providing access to elites. they're not interested in the masses. what's interesting is we see not just butina -- this is not a case of her infiltrating the prayer breakfast, but in fact them reaching out to her. some of their initial contact happens in moscow where they also run a prayer breakfast for government elites and where they met with butina and agreed to start working together on influential delegation that they could use to bring to the prayer breakfast and to forge relationships out of that. we see that in affidavits. she says thank you for the very important private meetings that
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followed and i look forward to further meetings where we'll share further information. >> would you say that the russians over the years, not just with donald trump, but more broadly have i guess you could say infiltrated the religious right in this country. >> yes, i think it's fair to say there's almost a christian love affair with putin's russia. it's partly shaped by his very fierce opposition to lgbtq rights. not a personal opposition. it's more a political tactic for him. that's enough for the american christian rights. one leader calls him christianity. franklin graham. son of billy. >> interesting, we have to get more on this.
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we haven't really gotten into this russia angle on it. very interesting. coming up in next hour. man who wrote the art of the deal, tells us why trump has such putin envy. great rachel ma dough here to sense of all of this. met. there's a lot of innovation that goes into making our thinnest longest lasting blades on the market. precision machinery and high-quality materials from around the world. nobody else even comes close. it's about delivering a more comfortable shave every time. invented in boston, made and sold around the world. order now at gilletteondemand.com. gillette. the best a man can get.
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>> translator: we can bring up the -- mr. browder, in this particular case. business associates of mr. browder have earned over $1.5 billion in russia. they never paid any taxes, neither in russia nor the united states. and yet the money escaped the country. they were transferred to the united states. >> one of the most shocking things to come out of that now infamous helsinki news conference was putin calling out american-born businessman and staunch putin critic bill browder by name and demanding russian operatives be able to interrogate him, along with several other americans. even more shocking is the president of the united states donald trump called it, quote, an incredible offer, only to
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backtrack a few days later. joining me is bill browder, head of the global magnitsky campaign. thank you for joining me. >> it's great to be here. >> bill, the most obvious question is, what did you think when you heard the dictator of russia call you out by name? >> well, i should point out that for most americans, this is probably the first time they've heard vladimir putin calling out my name, but he's been on me for a long time. and this is not the first time he's called out my name. he's pretty much obsessed with me. he's obsessed with me because i was the one who got the magaz e magnitsky in place, who was my lawyer sergei magnitsky, my lawyer in russia who was murder murdered. he's got a lot of assets in the west and he thinks his money is
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at risk. >> just so people are clear, when donald trump jr. took that meeting in trump tower and talked about adoption, the response of russia to the magnitsky act, which we just put up the tenets of it, was to ban americans from adopting russian children. do you believe there was a connection between the russians who met with donald trump jr. in trump tower and those russians who just got indicted for attacking our election? >> well, the place where there's a direct connection is the russians who went to trump tower, brought in very clear, specific talking points. those same talking points were the same talking points vladimir putin expressed very ar stick latly in the press conference in hell ki helsinki. what i can say for sure in my own opinion is the whole spin, this whole business of tax evasion, hillary clinton
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donations, et cetera, is something the russians have been banging on from the kremlin for a long time. >> just to be -- >> i can't speak to the mueller indictment, though. >> just to be clear, did you ever give any money to the hillary clinton campaign? you're now a british national. did you -- >> i gave no -- i gave no money to the -- to the hillary clinton campaign or any other campaign. >> yeah. and, of course, during the presidential campaign, you were actually mentioned in that trump tower meeting, which is pretty extraordinary. i want to play for you fox news' chris wallace interviewing vladimir putin on monday. one of the -- the real reason the mention of your name and michael mcfall's name integrating you frightens people. >> why is it so many of the people that oppose vladimir put putin? >> translator: all of us have plenty of political rivals. i'm pretty sure president trump has political rivals. >> but they don't end up dead. >> translator: not always?
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well haven't presidents been killed in the united states? have you forgotten? has canada been killed in russia or the united states? or mr. king? all of us have our own set of domestic problems. >> i'm not sure why he thinks mentioning the assassination of john f. kennedy and martin luther king jr. is to reassure people. obviously, there's no proof that he ordered it himself, but they certainly are critics of vladimir putin and people he considers enemies that have ended up either dead or poisoned, not to mention people from britain. are you afraid, i guess bluntly, bill, and are you taking precautions for your safety? >> well, there's two issues. one is am i at risk of being killed by vladimir putin's regime? the answer is, yes. do i live in fear? am i looking over my shoulder?
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am i moderating my behavior? the answer is, no. of course, i'm taking many precautions, as many as i can take. but at the end of the day, if they're going to use chemical weapon poison on my doorknob, how do you prevent yourself from getting killed that way? if he really wants to get me, he will get me. i believe vladimir putin would like to kill me in a plausibly deniable way. therefore, his strategy, his tactics are to try to get me back to russia to throw me into a russian prison and kill me in a russian prison the way they did sergei magnitsky, my lawyer. >> do you fear the president would send you to russia, hand you over? >> for a couple of days he seemed to think it was a brilliant idea. it only took -- it required an act of congress, 98-0 before he sort of backtracked on that idea. i'm appalled that president trump didn't reject that idea out of hand within the first 30 seconds of it being asked of
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him. >> you and a lot of people. bill browder, please be safe, sir. take care of yourself, really. and thank you for your time. eop. from fares to fee policies to our rewards program. and somehow putting you first made us first. i guess that makes us both number one. low fares. great service. that's transfarency. [clap, clap, ding]
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i think the russians need to know there are a lot of us who fully understand what happened in 2016, and it really better not happen again in 2018. >> welcome back to "am joy." after donald trump's fiasco in helsinki republicans found
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themselves in a now familiar position. visibly uncomfortable with what the leader of their party was doing, quietly critical, including on background to reporters, but struggling to be anything but publicly submissive for fear of upsetting the die hard trump voter base. you heard mitch mcconnell trying to talk tough by warning russia not to interfere in our elections this year. let's take a step back to 2016 and recall that it was mcconnell whom vice president joe biden and others blame for undercutting the obama administration's response to russian interference in the 2016 election. by refusing to sign onto a bipartisan statement, condemning the interference and reportedly watering down a letter from congressional leaders urging states to help protect the election. mcconnell, of course, denies that he did anything to hamper president obama's response and he joined other republicans in rebuking trump for his submissive performance in helsinki. >> it feels like the dam is breaking and, you know, people
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are -- and i was really glad to see people on both sides of the aisle condemning what happened yesterday strongly. >> so there was lots of damage done yesterday because the u.s. decided to walk away from an affirmation of u.s. values. >> i think it was a bad day for the president. i think he can fix it. i think he needs to fix it. >> i never thought i'd see an american president throw the intelligence community under the bus like that. >> but even that day of gentle criticism didn't last very long. with republicans racing to latch onto trump's incredible claim that he misspoke at that press conference by confusing the words would and wouldn't. >> i think it's a big step forward when anybody in public life or anybody in private life admits they made a mistake. it's good to confess it and say you're sorry. >> i think people understand that it was a painful experience for him. look, i think that's a positive step. >> i'm just glad he clarified it. i can't read his intentions or what he meant to say at the
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time. >> right on cue, mcconnell and fellow republicans are getting trump a get out of helsinki free card. will they do anything at all to defend american voters against a potential russian attack on the next election? joining me now, michael singleton, and rick wilson, author of "everything trump touches dies," a republican strategist. a subtle title in which you went for the sort of low burn. you didn't want to be too aus. n i'll start with you. mitch mcconnell coming out, trying to talk tough against russians comes amid all the reporting. joe biden said then majority leader mcconnell stopped the obama administration from speaking about the russian interference, refused to sign onto a bipartisan agreement of condemnation.
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they feared it would play into the russian's ambitions. former obama chief of staff dennis mcdonagh saying point blank mcconnell watered down a bipartisan response telling states to protect themselves. >> the president asked the four leaders in a bipartisan meeting in the oval office to join him in asking the states to work with us on this question. it took over three weeks to get that statement worked out. it was dramatically watered down. you can ask harry reid and nancy pelosi, even the speaker -- >> it was watered down on the insistence of mitch mcconnell? >> yes. >> and nobody else? >> yes. >> okay. and third little point of interest here, an april 2017 article saying the cia, which i've been reading over and over again this morning, had evidence of russian efforts to help donald trump, specifically to help donald trump, even though the fbi disagreed it was
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specifically for trump. the cia believed it was. and senator mitch mcconnell of kentucky, when he was briefed with the gang of eight, the republican majority leader resisted, questioning the underpinnings of the intelligence, according to officials with knowledge of the subject. mcconnell agreed to a softer version of this letter which did not mention the russians but warned of unnamed malafactors. how can mr. mcconnell have any credibility on russia given all that? >> i think -- i think mitch mcconnell probably regrets those decisions at this point because the scope of what russia has done and continuing to do to our country is becoming clearer by the minute. i'm going to give him the small squig of doubt to say this is an area where he thought it might have been political and thought it might have had something that wasn't on the up and up. he wanted to ask the questions. however, anyone who really dove into that intelligence then or now recognizes the scope of this. on the plus side for mitch mcconnell, he's not done what
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paul ryan has done. paul ryan has allowed devin nunes and this clown caucus in the house to limit investigations into the fbi as part of trump's defense team. mcconnell has kept his hands off the intel team in the senate. i will say this, everyone now knows the score. no one gets a pass going forward. no one gets a pass in the last six months because the intel community has made it incredibly clear. every single part of the intel community is in 100% agreement that the russians did this. the russians wanted this for donald trump's benefit. going forward, the russians are continuing to put the thumb on the scale of american politics. nobody gets a pass from here. no one gets to say, well, there's something questionable about it or one person in one agency has a dissenting view. this is categorical. this is absolutely night and day. >> you've even had will hurd, a
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republican from a safe district in texas, come out and do an op-ed, he's a former cia agent, saying trump is being manipulated by vladimir putin. what should we do? this is a stalwart republican coming out and saying this. to rick's point, you see a difference between the way the senate intelligence committee and house intelligence committee are handling this, now knowledge everyone should share that russia's interfered. but do you see, just in your reporting, any desire on the part of senate republicans to act proactively to defend the next election against russian intrusion? we haven't seen efforts to protect robert mueller. we certainly don't see them wanting to do that. but are they still looking at this through the political lens of protect donald trump more than protect the election? >> yeah, the short answer to that is no. there has been really no appetite on the part of republicans in either chamber of congress, frankly, to put more efforts into protecting the election systems, giving states more money, investing into cyber
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protections. we haven't seen any of that. that's something that all it takes is the word from mitch mcconnell or paul ryan to send bills like that to the floor, that could pass with an overwhelming veto-proof majority if they want to do that, as well as protect the mueller investigation. i think what's protecting the president right now and his ability to -- despite the fact republicans are sometimes uncomfortable with what he does and says, like the hell sink h summit, are polls. republicans know overwhelmingly are on his side and that means mcconnell, paul ryan and other republican leaders in congress are not going to act in ways that are against him. they're not going to put in place policies that he doesn't want, such as a bill to protect the mueller investigation or to boost election protections. yeah, they passed a condemnation. the senate passed a condemnation of his behavior in helsinki -- or of this proposal that vladimir putin had to hand over americans and also have
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essentially outsourced part of the mueller investigation to moscow, which was ridiculous on its face, but that's nonbinding. it doesn't really do anything other than sort of shake a finger at the president. that seems to be as far as they're going to go because they don't want to lose the support that the president has overall from the party. >> that doesn't speak well for the party itself, the more important thing is the polls. to the point you just made, kimberly, here is the axios latest poll that says approve or disapprove of how trump handled his press conference in helsinki. 18% disapprove, and some think he did a great job. let's play rand paul, senator rand paul of kentucky and i'll come to you on this. actually saying, doesn't matter, even if the russians did it. >> well, we also have to understand that we have to deal with the world as it is, not as we wish it to be. if we're only going to talk to
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people who have perfect constitutional republicans, we'll have a very small audience and a lot of potential conflict with no outlet for diplomacy. i think it's a mistake for people to try to turn this into a partisan escapade. >> explain to our audience who are gob smacked that a third of our country thinks that that meeting went well in helsinki and that it isn't a big deal if russians interfered in the election. >> i think a lot of conservatives, at least individuals who voted for the president, you have heard this message or this line time and time again, that, yeah, he made a mistake here, but look at what we're getting, right? earlier you were talking about evangelicals. why do they continue to stick with the president? because they got one supreme court justice. they're likely going to get another. individuals are looking at tangible things that sort of benefit them individually over the overall country. they're saying, well, i am getting this or we are getting this, so i'm going to stick with
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him regardless. look, joy, i never imagined that the russians would have an asset in the president. they've always had spies, et cetera, in our country, but just imagine having the president of the united states of america essentially throw our country under the bus. that's unprecedented. republicans in congress, the house and the senate, are only concerned about self-preservation because, again, to that poll from axios, they're looking at the numbers and they see a majority of the republican base are sticking with the president. because they're concerned with their seats and all the stature that comes with it, they're not willing to speak out aggressively enough. i can only tell you, joy, i think we're going to fill that burn come midterms and beyond. >> rick, there's a piece in "the washington post" that says the entire republican party is a russian asset. it may be because they convinced themselves that no tactic is too repugnant and no moral compromise too loathsome when you're serving the lofty goal of keeping democrats from power or
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it may be they're terrified the base is sufficient to trump. do you agree with paul waldman? >> this is the greatest intelligence coup. the russians have compromised an american president thoroughly, completely and evidently and they have thoroughly compromised the republican party and the congress that should be a constitutional check and balance on him, a co-equal branch of government. the russians didn't have to go and set something up to lure congress in. they just knew once trump was in, that his celebrity and his cult would be the enforcers for him. i think paul is right, the president is utterly compromise and the congress -- look, i don't think congress is the majority of them, maybe dana or others are swinging around with russians. the ones i speak to all the time, including those that go
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out on tv with the red hat on and say trump is the best, they call and go, oh, my god, this is a disaster. we're being dragged down to serve vladimir putin. the nato summit shook so many members of the senate and the house, you had thought they already hit bottom. then he went into helsinki and went into gimp act with putin. up, they're shocked, they're stunned, but terrified of the base. they're terrified these guys -- the minute you say something wrong about donald trump, their facebook feeds and phones blow up and death threats and this craziness from the trump right that won't quit. and they are intimidated by it. they're not leaders, they're a clean-up crew. >> i wonder if they are also concerned about russia because this "new york times" story, this is from april of 2017, but i've been rereading it this morning, makes it very clear that the cia was very clear in their assessment that not only did russians infiltrate the dnc and the dccc but they also
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infiltrated russian systems. states -- states that were controlled by the republican party, their election systems. but also the rnc. are republicans on the hill not concerned that at a certain point if they don't behave themselves exactly as the russians want, that maybe information on them will come out? >> you know, i think in the past i heard a lot more from republicans with respect to russian interference. thereby, the grace of god go us. you know, this time they tried to help one side, another time they will try to help another side and elections -- our election systems have to be protected. i think this has become overshadowed as we get closer to the midterms about a desire to stay on point with the president, not to push back against him too hard, not too to upset the base. so, it has not been that kind of response. what i hear more often from republicans now is, oh, well, i wish the president would focus on the economy.
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i wish the president would focus on immigration. they're thinking a lot more about the midterm election messaging than the fact that this is -- this was an attack on election systems of the united states that could go either way. >> and i wonder if when you're speaking with your fellow republicans, what happens if dan coates is right and we have a digital 9/11? what if the next attack isn't on the election system. what it's if it's on a grid, wall street, a bank, what will republicans do then? >> i think republicans will ultimately be responsible if such an act occurs because they have done much of nothing. look, i think the republican party, at least the republican party as we once knew it, is dead. this is now the party of trump. the conservative philosopher burke wrote, we must conform. it's long overdue for the republican party to truly check the president of the united states. that is why we have a separation of branches. there's a dereliction of duty here. i'm a republican. i've alleges been one. i think come november the
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american people have to send a message to the republican party and donald trump. >> meaning a message -- what message? >> a message that we're not taking this anymore. >> yeah. >> well, thank you all very much. appreciate you being here. >> thank you. up next, the art of the deal co-author tony schwartz decodes the trump helsinki debacle. ♪ [ coughs ] ♪ ♪ [ screams ] ♪ [ laughs ] ♪ whoa, whoa, whoa. your one item would be the name your price tool? it helps people save on car insurance. why wouldn't it save me? why? what would you bring? a boat. huh.
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i mean, i had these -- some of these fools from the media saying, why didn't you stand there, look him in the face, walk over to him and start shouting at him? i said, are these people crazy? i want to make a deal. i want to make a deal. you can't do that. i'm different than other presidents. i'm a deal-maker. i've made deals all my life. i make great deals. >> so, what is the real deal with donald trump and vladimir putin? joining me now, someone who's experienced trump up close and personal, tony schwartz, author of . you worked on "the art of the deal." the book came out in '86? >> '87. >> i want to play you trump on the oprah winfrey show in 1988, the year after the book came out. take a listen. >> i know people have talked to
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you about whether or not you want to run. would you ever? >> probably not, but i do get tired of seeing the country ripped -- >> why would you not? >> i just don't think i really have the inclination to do it. i really love what i'm doing. >> also it doesn't pay as well. >> but, you know, i just probably wouldn't do it, oprah. i probably wouldn't. but i do get tired of seeing what happened with this country. if it got so bad, i would never rule it out totally because i really am tired of seeing what's happening with this country, how we're really making other people live like kings and we're not. >> it's extraordinary because it's the same rhetoric about we're getting ripped off. back then it was japan. now it's china. and we know he did think about running for president, so that wasn't even true. is this the same person that we see today? >> it's a person who is de minimumished and who is -- i always use this word, decompensated, which probably isn't a great word because it's not easily understood. but i really do think unraveling. when you're facing the kind of
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pressure that he's facing -- look, the presidency itself is an enormous pressure. obama's hair got grayer and grayer. but then you add the fact that not only is the -- the multiple investigations closing in on him, but he knows what they've got. >> right. >> and so what happens to a person who's psychologically unstable in that situation, they begin to double down on all the things he's always done. he's always grandiose. he's more grandiose now, which means he's living inside his reality. what is so baffling to us is that we operate by looking at reality in a much broader perspective. but he's reinventing it every day inside his own head. and i think he mostly believes it. the second thing is that his paranoia is way greater. listen, paranoia sometimes makes sense and he's right to believe people are after him, but each of these things that makes him
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more unstable is increasing in intensity. >> and i think -- i'm glad you made that point, that the things that were already true about him get amplified. back in the '80s he was obsessed with russia, being ambassador and ending the threat of nuclear war. that's intensified over time. you tweeted on friday, here's a question, is the reason trump invited putin to a second meeting at the white house after the first was such a disaster is putin told trump to do so because he owns trump? is that what you think? >> i do. i don't know that he invited -- that he insisted on inviting him. i do believe that putin owns trump. all you have to do -- joy, this is really what i think the media needs to be more focused on, which is forget the idea of parsing whether it's a double negative or not. he lied -- >> would or wouldn't. >> would or wouldn't. the man lies. say the facts and move on.
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do not sit here and try to figure out whether donald trump might have actually misspoken. we know he misspoke -- he didn't miss speak. we know this is a man who's told 3200 lies during the last year and a half. i mean, come on. we know that's what he does. so, let's just focus on the facts and not get into his game. this is his game. he wants you to parse this because what he wants to do is he wants to objecti have i skat, and trust that you can't trust any truth. that plays into his hands. yes, you can trust a truth. this is a cup. this is not a magic marker. period. let's say those things and move on. >> how does this end? i mean, do you see donald trump ever being held to account for the things he's done, or allowing himself to be? >> i see a very clear -- i for a long time, like many people,
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thought reason would pull over those people who are either on trump's side in a moderate way or possibly even those who were very much republican but felt they couldn't tolerate his character defects. i no longer believe that. it's quite obvious there's somewhere between 30% and 40% of the population who are goinging to support trump, just as he says, even if he shoots people on fifth avenue. even if he stands next to the russian president and takes his side. our focus needs to be on the 60% of america that is outraged by what they're seeing. all that needs to happen is for those people to come out and vote. so, that's the first thing. is we have to keep hope alive for the next six months -- i shouldn't even say six months. it's three months, four months. it's somewhere in between those two. it's november.
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keep hope alive. keep this very clear and urge people to come out and vote. that's number one. number two, look, they've got him. mueller has got him. michael cohen through the southern district is a -- is a powerful voice and actually has his voice. so, those are two ways that we are going to see this president tamed, i believe. now, listen, it is wild card in this is if he decides, i'm just going to call off elections or shut down the media, except for the state media, which would be fox and breitbart and so on. so, that's why we don't know for sure, but i do see that this week in particular creates an incredible message for the democrats, for the opposition, which is, do you want putin to be president or do you want an american to be president? >> wow. >> period. >> wow.
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summed up by tony schwartz. thank you very much. still to come, an update on the status of migrant children separated from their parents. your hair is so soft! did you use head and shoulders two in one? i did mom. wanna try it? yes. it intensely moisturizes your hair and scalp and keeps you flake free. manolo? look at my soft hair. i should be in the shot now too. try head and shoulders two in one.
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with just five days to go before a court-imposed deadline, the trump administration is making slow progress on reuniting children from their parents. nbc news reports as of friday the government has reunified 450 children between the age of 5 and 17, leaving 2,000 kids still separated from their parents, with less than a week to go before the deadline. we'll have much more on this story tomorrow. up next, what the great rachel maddow has to say. is a l and packages. is a l and it's also a story about people. people who rely on us every day to deliver their dreams they're handing us more than mail they're handing us their business and while we make more e-commerce deliveries to homes than anyone else in the country, we never forget... that your business is our business the united states postal service. priority: you ♪
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i don't know about you, but we here at "am joy" our heads have been spinning with the nonstop barrage of news this week, so i turned to our in-house expert of making sense of all things madness. rachel maddow. >> i feel like we have spent the last two years doing one story, right? >> doing a lot of different angles on this one story. we keep in a way, i feel, getting tricked -- turning point, turning point, turning point. things keep feeling like a turning point. i wonder from your point of view, having done this, again, two years, did helsinki feel like a turning point in this russia saga? >> the thing that feels new after helsinki is that the country is shook up and freaked out about it. i mean, the president being oddly and inexplicably and
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complete complete completely defferntial to vladimir putin is no big surprise. the thought of him doing that to his face, instead of on their bat phone or whoever they communicate. but the fact he did that in person standing next to putin that shook the country. and i think -- i don't think republicans are excluded from that. and so i think what that means is the president is not necessarily doing anything new but all of a sudden the country has new clarity about the extremity of the concern about the president. it's not just did the president get help from russia to win his election? yes, there is. what kind of documentation is there and what evidence will ultimately turn up about whether his campaign knowingly accepted that help or maybe worked
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collectively with the russians to pull off their hack, that continues to be the legal battle that we watch unfold, but there's this base level question. like maybe we've taken so many turning points, we've turned so many corners, we're back where we started. the basic question rung so loud for everybody in the country this week was, is our president subordinate to a foreign power? does our president answer to a foreign government and a foreign leader? and that's private meeting with putin where nobody knows what he promised. the way he responded to putin when we saw him face-to-face and then the fact that he took under consideration all of these demands from russia, including handing over americans to russia for interrogation. that just -- you know, it makes the worst case scenario palpable. the fact that the. the is a foreign agent feels palpable. >> there are two ways to look at the way donald trump responded to vladimir putin.
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he did sh rings before our eyes standing next to him. either donald trump is ideologically aligned with vladimir putin and he shares his world view and he couldn't hide is it because he shares it or to your reporter's eye did that look like intimidation? >> i don't know. i don't know body language and i don't know those two things where exclusive to each other. you know, the more that i talk to intelligence professionals and people who have brought espionage cases and people who have dealt with spy movie scenarios in real life, the more you hear the behavior of a compromised person, a person who is effectively coerced because of something, not a foreign leader, a foreign government, foreign intelligence service has over them, the more subtle the signs can be. it may not be totally transactional. it may not be, we've got this thing about you that we're going to expose unless you do our bidding. therefore, hand us this secret. it may not always be transactional.
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it may be there's just a fear factor where that person who is compromised knows they need to align themselves in every way completely with the views and the preferences of the person who has something on them. so, it may be that they just line up all of their values, their policy positions, their ideologies, anything else you need so they'll never be out of step with the person who effectively controls them. you don't need a pay me back, pay me back, pay me back transactional interaction in order to live as a compromised person and betray your country in that way. >> the thing -- you said it on your show. i think the whole country agreed with you on this, the thing that felt different to me was this idea of handing over an american, of handing over an american diplomat, saying, you can take michael mcfall and interrogate him. >> that's a brilliant idea. he called it -- what did he -- >> it was a tremendous idea or tremendous offer. >> tremendous offer. a tremendous offer. very fascinating. he not only praised the offer when he got it, the offer to hand over former u.s. ambassador
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and american citizen says to russia for interrogation. people who putin very clearly wants dead, not only did he praise it in front of putin, he came back to washington and mulled it over for four freaking days before he said no. allowing the white house secretary to say, he's talking it over with his team. yes, that's being considered. ultimately when the president turned it down, it was a compliment to putin and the sincerity with which putin made that demand. the depth of the suborder nation of the president to the russian president, for whatever reason, is no longer in question. we can all see it happening. we don't know the origin story of how that came to be. now, with this dynamic effectively controlling the president. >> incredible offer, which is -- >> incredible offer. >> in time for the midterm.
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>> so, i want to read you a little bit of the washington -- greg sergeant, "the washington post," and he writes about this anger that you're hearing from the white house or the alarm inside the white house, which one would guess and presume would be because of helsinki but it's actually because of dni coates, and the interview coates gave to andrea mitchell. th at moments coates appeared to be laughing to the president, playing to his audience of intellectual elite in a manner sure to infuriate president trump. the going rogue asserting there were ongoing attacks on our electoral system and saying there are attacks on us is going rogue. does that surprise you at this point? >> no, it doesn't surprise me. there are two dynamics that greg
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sergeant is talking about and one is the president's personal insecurities and needing to be praised and fear of being laughed at and all that personal stuff, which we've seen in action. i'm not a great believer in presidenting president's on the couch and trying to understand, what was your childhood like that made you this way and how does that affect your supreme court choices? i'm not that person, but the other thing that he's talking about there is exactly what you said. to the extent coats substantively went rogue on the friday before the helsinki summit he gave a speech where he said, this is like 9/11, this is the red warning lights blinking, this is -- we need to be as -- we need to be aware that the risk to the country right now is as strong as the risk was before 9/11. and then he went on to talk about the russia threat, including ongoing threat to democracy and our election systems. that right before helsinki, the timing there wasn't a
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coincidence. and then in his interview with andrea, i mean, he talked about the -- how we need to be cognizant of the fact that russia is led by a former kgb agent and it's not a good idea to have a u.s. president meet with a russian leader without a note taker present and the possibility that the russians did possibly create a recording of that meeting. it's intel 101 stuff. it shouldn't be an affront for the president to hear this stuff but it is because of the weird circumstance we're in. just whether or not the russians recorded that meeting. he said, is it possible they had a tape recorder in there? he said, yes, it's possible. we don't know what trump and putin talked about in that room. we don't know what trump may have conceded or promised or given away, what he might have told him. in terms of u.s. secrets. but because we have to assume the russians made a recording there, the russians not only know what happened in that room because putin was there, they have a recording that they can manipulate to their desire. so, whatever they want to make
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it seem like trump said, whatever they're going to take to the bank, when they need to say, hey, the u.s. president gave us permission to do this, they're absolutely free to doctor that tape if they need to. whatever trump actually said is probably bad enough, but whatever they want to make him say, they can retro actively do. and there's no american rebuttal to it because there were no americans in that room other than trump and the translator to keep him honest. >> hopefully the translator will testify before congress. speaking of recordings, michael cohen, just when we thought we had our show planned this weekend, michael cohen recorded trump, something trump was surprised about. which i'm surprised he would be surprised. what does that story then do to this overall narrative? we already have -- well, what does that story do to this narrative? >> i have a contrary take to this story. it's definitely of interest that the president's personal lawyer was at least -- i don't know if he was in the habit. he at least wants recorded a
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conversation with the president. i am interested in whether or not he waived attorney/client privilege, how that factored into the big fight happening in the southern district of new york as to what was seized by federal agents from cohen's home and office and his security deposit box -- safety deposit box and all that stuff. it will be interesting to see how that plays out. the reason the story broke in "the new york times" today, i'm absolutely convinced, is because through the process of sharing information with the president's legal team, in the southern district of new york, because of this pending criminal case against michael cohen, the president's lawyers decided to get out ahead of this. they found out during the process of going through the evidence that was seized through michael cohen, the president's lawyers found out, that tape of you talking about paying karen mcdougle, that's one of the things the prosecutors are going to get here. that's one of the things michael had. and so i'm absolutely convinced -- i may be proven wrong, but looking at this
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today, i think this is something that the president's legal team released to try to get out ahead of it. that's why we got these bizarre statements from rudy giuliani. it's exculpatory, it clears the president. for one, he wanted to pay by check. they're doing that, one, to get out ahead of the story so they're breaking it on their own terms and it's not a surprise bombshell further down the road when it could do further damage. it lands at a time when maybe it puts a final point on people talking about russia all week long. let's distract them with this. the other thing is it takes away michael cohen's ability to negotiate with prosecutors for a good deal if he flips. if this is one of the really potent things he had to offer prosecutors, don't put me in jail, look what i've got. this has now had the power sapped. that puts michael cohen in a less good negotiating position in terms of why he might flip. that, to me, makes much more sense than, you know, somebody
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inside sdny let this go. doesn't seem to have been leaked from the cohen side. it seems to have been leaked from the trump side and they're trying to sap the power of that recording. >> i have come to trust your theories when you say something. it's more often than not -- >> if if i'm completely wrong about this, i'll take you out for tacos. >> that's one of my favorite foods so i'll take you up on that. >> that's because you're a human being. >> if you throw some st. germain with the tacos -- >> now i'm hoping i'm wrong. >> thank you very much. appreciate you, my friend. is rachel not the best? yes, she is the best. coming up, the reverend al and his conversation with michael cohen. reverend al sharpton coming up next. ♪ ooh, heaven is a place on earth ♪ uhp. i didn't believe it. again. ♪ ooh, baby, do you know what that's worth? ♪
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he acts like an agent of the kremlin. donald trump is still absorbing ridicule over his treatment in helsinki and from none other than russian state tv. as you just heard. joining me now is mosha guessen author. and just to bring our conversation in the break forward for the audience, we were talking about the fact that there is this theory that the only reason that donald trump is being puppeteered by vladimir putin is either fear or kompromat. but it could be he believes what putin believes. >> i think so. he has great admiration for the dictators of the world. we have seen him act in a similar way toward other dictators. but putin happens to be his favorite dictator. putin is the person he wants to be. he has the kind of control as we heard him talk about during the election. he has the kind of control of his country. he also has the kind of
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popularity numbers. they're totalitarian but that is what trump would like to be. he would like to be adored by 86% of the population. >> he would like to be powerful and admired. but at the same time, just physically watching the two men together, trump is much larger, but he seemed to shrink down and really physically subordinate himself to vladimir putin. do you think he's afraid of him? >> well, i don't -- i'm not an expert in body language. it was an extraordinary thing to watch. we have seen trump remove -- step in front of the queen. shove the president of montenegro aside during a photo. that is very unusual. he is deferential but he admires putin and wants to be like him and be friends with him. >> and putin doesn't like mont neggo sand trump, who i doubt knows much about montenegro, doesn't like montenegro. >> we can't under the rule of
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putin is not a star preparer but he does go in with names and numbers and his technique is to drown in information. a lot of it erroneous but still a lot of information. and trump, he goes in unprepared. he's never heard of montenegro. and putin said montenegro is bad and he thinks it is bad. >> and was he playing and faking that for trump. >> putin is a conspiracy theorist. the two men share a couple of things and they watch their own tv. putin has been watching his own tv for nearly 20 years at this point. so he has conspiracy theories. those conspiracy theories are reflected back to him by television. he believes in them all the more. and it is the same dynamic we see with trump and "fox and friends" except that putin happens to dominate his own television so it is more directly his own. >> i've been reading all of the stories from back in -- from
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donald trump's obsession with the then soviet union back in the '80s when he object of his fixation was gorbachev and a nobel prize winner out of boston talks about the fact that donald trump summoned him to trump tower to talk about the fixation when he had a bigger vocabulary the -- ambassador to moscow and personally negotiate with gorbachev and got faked by what he thought came to the trump tower. but he is living out his '80s fantasy of interacting with russia. >> that is fascinating. it certainly seems like this. i think the whole country is living out of the some '80s fears and fantasy. and i'm hearing them on the
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floor chanting usa and we're going into this cold war rhetoric and the game of analysis of -- >> what would be more effective. because it is so bizarre to see the president of the united states act this way and turn over americans to russia. what is a -- a rational response to it look like? >> i think it would be more effective to focus not on theories of what putin has on trump, but on trump's manifest incompetence. we know this. we don't need any additional information to react to it. and also to focus on what is going on with immigration. instead of talking about helsinki for a week. >> well, you have preview of russia tomorrow and you are right and what is happening at border is horrifying and we should not lose sight. it is a pleasure to talk you to. and i was complimenting your outfit. i'll do it on tv. more "am joy" after the break.
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that is our show for today. we'll be back tomorrow at 10:00 a.m. and al and alex wit. >> i'm jealous you have the rev on. i said debacle or is it debacle. >> here is the deal. because you're my sister from another mother i will back you up, but i think it is a debacle and a debacle. i'll go with either/or. >> year a

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