tv All In With Chris Hayes MSNBC July 27, 2018 12:00am-1:00am PDT
they are what have made us better for nearly 100 years. >> perhaps the second most talked about man in america these days. robert mueller speaking on american life, civil liberties and the rule of law. and that brings an end to our thursday night broadcast. thank you so very much for being here with us good night from nbc news headquarters here in new york. >> tonight on all in. the mueller probe closes in on obstruction. >> did he fight back? you fight back. oh, it's obstruction. >> as the money man for the trump organization faces michael cohen's grand jury. >> i have spoken to allen weisselberg about how to set the whole thing up. >> tonight, the growing legal trouble for the president. >> he knows where all of the financial bodies are buried within the trump organization.
>> russian hackers target their first vulnerable democrat. then the congressman who moves to impeach rod rosenstein wants to run the house. and then, what we know about the fate of thousands of children the trump administration ripped away from their parents. >> you might want to talk to the department of homeland security if it is possible to reunite you with your daughter. >> good evening from new york. i am chris hayes. in the secretly recorded conversation between donald trump and michael cohen two months before election day, we were introduced to a new and fascinating character in the trump orbit. the man cohen said he turned to to help setting up a company for a secret payment.
>> i need to open up a company for the transfer of all of the the info regarding our friend david. i am going to do that right away. i spoken to allen about how to set the whole thing up. >> he is a hugely important figure in the trump organization. once described as the most senior person in the organization that is not a trump. weisselberg has spent decades as chief financial officer. after he was elected he was giving up day-to-day control of his business. his lawyer said trump was handing control over to three people.
business deals and finances according to trump biography. he knows more about the trump history and finances than anyone. weisselberg has worked for the trump family since the 1970s. allen knows where all of the financial bodies are buried within the trump organization which is why today's news may have induced some serious panic in the president of the united states. because according to the "wall street journal," weisselberg has been subpoenaed. and to the $130,000 payment that cohen made to stormy daniels. in may "the new york times" reported that weisselberg has known since last year the details of how mr. cohen was being reimbursed. all of that of course might be
the tip of the iceberg when it comes to what there is to be learned to a man that knows where the financial bodies are buried. robert mueller and his team are scrutinizing tweets as they look to build an obstruction case. telling nbc that mueller has almost everything he needs between the lester holt interview and the tweets, trump puts them on the five-yard line. what this could mean for the president, political analyst is david corn. and natasha. >> i think you are right, he
does speak to the two hush money payments that we know, already know about involving stormy daniels and karen mcdougal, the playboy model and he can address the core question. keeping these women quiet because of the election. in order to help donald trump's election chances. and they were and that was explicit, then they get into an area of campaign finance violations. and yes, he knows where all of the financial bodies are for dozens of years, scores of several decades, and the issue would be whether the southern district of new york attorneys start asking about things other than the hush money payments, other than things that just involve michael cohen. we know that trump nearly became
under criminal investigation by the manhattan da, the investigation was dropped. and the new yorker did a piece a year ago raising issues whether the trump organization violated the foreign act. that could be something that truly freaks out the president. >> as someone who is a stickler for the rules, and has neither committed any financial crimes, if my accountant was in front of a grand jury, i would be freaking out. we talk about flows of money, how opaque and byzantine it is. and the person has the rosetta stone for it, is the guy appearing before the grand jury. >> this is a huge development
because it indicates that it is expanded into trump's business dealings. his financial past and business real estate dealings over the last 30, 40 years, are in the cross hairs here. and that is something that trump said is a red line. this is an interesting roundabout way to get at it. especially since weisselberg has been subpoenaed. he is the guy. there are only two people who knew about every single deal. that was donald trump and alan weisselberg and he would have known about all of the dealings that trump had with russian oligarchs, whether or not there was russian money being laundered. he knows virtually everything. so it is a really big deal. >> that question, david, which
is what is the economic financial entanglements in the background. there are questions on it, trump on the record, we have a lot of money there. >> it seems like he would know everything. we know there are major loans in trump's business past including a gigantic one of deutsche bank. people trying to find out more about that. we don't know if there is anything illegal there, but miss -- mysterious. if the prosecutor wants to take a page of question from mueller and ask about, well, what did it mean, when your son, when eric trump said we are getting all of this money for our golf courses from russia. what did it mean when donald trump jr. said we are getting
this russian money back in the 2008 period. he can answer those questions. >> you made allusion to this. you have the mueller team preparing to go to trial against paul manafort. there is another trial for paul manafort in d.c. you have a federal grand jury and the u.s. attorney's office for the southern district of new york has the grand jury of michael cohen which is distinct but perhaps related to the mueller team. >> and the thing this has in common is money laundering, tax evasion. it is a follow the money on all sides. a follow the money investigation. and that is always how mueller was going to get to the heart of this. you see who is leveraged to who. who owes this debt and why does he feel compelled to do that. so many threads coming together now.
being investigated. and it is a matter of time when those dots are being connected. >> don't forget that there is a guy named michael cohen out there who looks like he is moving to full cooperation with the u.s. attorneys and southern district in new york and with robert mueller. so you have this movement here of being able to question weisselberg and michael cohen. and for michael cohen to survive, he is going to have to tell all. i am surprised that the president has been as moderate in his tweeting today as he has been. >> and remember that our friend david pecker ami, they ran a hit piece on michael cohen. the drudge report posted it as a rat. >> what people are not clear about is the strategy. a lawyer can explain this better than i can. presumably doing it behind closed doors.
perhaps he is signaling for some type of pardon. >> i have no idea what michael cohen is doing and i have no idea what lanny davis are doing. thank you both for being with me. legal analyst jill wine banks. and attorney ali mistal. jill, let me start with you. a quote from the new york times that rudy giuliani is talking about. in response to the idea that the special prosecutor is looking at various public statements by the president, tweets and other things. he says if you are going to obstruct justice, you do it quietly. >> most kinds of obstruction is behind closed doors. but we live in a modern world where you can communicate easily through social media. and send messages by publicly announcing a pardon by a case that involves contempt of court. i will pardon you, you don't have to cooperate in the same way you can threaten a witness against you in the public media and it will count just as much as if you had done it behind closed doors. in this case, we have testimony that he did it behind closed doors and then repeated it because it didn't get through. we wanted it to happen and he did it again. he has been trying to obstruct this investigation from the very first day of it. done everything he could and
who would have thought he would say to nbc lester holt, i did it because i wanted to get through >> just to be clear. >> giuliani is making no sense. you caught the client breaking into the bank in broad daylight, and rudy giuliani says most people break into the bank at night. okay, your client is dumb. with cohen, and the tweets now, for the obstruction case at least. it is like watching a terrible pre quell. we know what happened here. so it is like robert mueller is -- yes, we know. the tweets, for instance, they are already public information. that already gets us to the five-yard line.
we have the lester holt interview and the tweets. mueller's team keeps trying to say, donald, if you have an explanation for this, you need to sit down and talk to me. >> we are talking about the case for obstruction as if we are talking about a normal client in the normal legal system. you are seeing these legal arguments being made by the president's defenders and the president's lawyers saying it is not obstruction if he does it in the course of official duties. none of that matters, because obstruction doesn't matter but for impeachment. there is not going to be any trial for obstructions of justice. they could return a report that says we believe the president obstructed justice. but they are not going to indict him for it. >> but they say they are going
to follow the rule which is the president cannot be indicted. i didn't agree with that decision. we did issue a report which was given to the house in order to have a road map for impeachment. the difference between then and now is that this house will do nothing with it. they will ignore any road map. they will ignore the evidence that is in their face. right now, it is obstruction in plain sight. it has been obstruction in plain sight since the very, very beginning. so it's got to happen that something will be done. i think there will be a blue wave in november and the house will treat it differently. >> and that is when we say impeachment is a political question. there are stronger or weaker cases. this idea that you can't, it is not obstructing if you are doing things within the president's power. and the president can tweet and talk about things and fire the fbi director.
and that is clearly the case he is making. they are not denying anything. >> they don't understand the word abuse of power. there are legitimate exercises and there are abuses of power. and as jill says, it comes down to politics. one of the interesting things that we have learned is the republicans know how to spell impeachment, going for the wrong guy. they get the concept of impeachment. so maybe that is an indication that we are moving forward. >> and jill, there is a weird way this has been reported and talked about, which is the separate things, collusion and obstruction. unrelated or loosely relates. it trikes me that the whole thing about nixon, the cover up, not the crime is about obstruction. the whole point of that was that he knew what they were doing, he knew about it after the fact
particularly and tried to cover it up. it is possible the president didn't know about collusion at the time but still tried to obstruct and that is still very serious if that were to be the case. >> that is exactly correct. everybody keeps saying well you can't have a case for obstruction if you don't have an under lying crime and that is not true. no evidence that nixon knew about the break in until the day after the break in. and as soon as he did, he started working to cover it up and all of the actions he took was illegal obstruction of justice. >> that is exactly right. to extend the collusion metaphor, let's say there was collusion. i don't know if there was, but the president didn't know about it while it was happening. nixon didn't know it was happening. >> we don't need evidence of a crime, we need evidence of criminal intent. intended to do something wrong. whether or not he was actually factually did he know.
if he intended to do something wrong, you can call it obstruction. >> that point, which is he didn't know until the day after. transition part is going to be a key part in all of this. there is a lot going down in the transition. a lot looking at the transition which is after the fact, of what do we do now. my eyes continue to be plastered to that. >> i just -- >> go ahead. >> i wanted to say the issue of whether he knew or didn't know, he clearly had actions that followed his knowing it. and those actions are definitely culpable. >> jill wine banks and ellie mistal. thank you both. >> using the same criminal methods how the vulnerable democratic senator responded. and the reporter that broke that story in just two minutes.
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appears to be the first identified case of russian interference. the daily beast reporting the russian intelligence agency behind the 2016 election cyber attacks targeted senator clare mccaskill. missouri democrat is in a tight race for her seat and has been a critic of both russia and donald trump. she said i will not be intimidated. i've said it before and i will say it again, putin is a thug and a bully. >> andrew desi derrio joins me tonight. what happened? >> the main intelligence
director in moscow ordered more cyber attacks. this is the exact same tactic that they used in 2016 that they were indicted for. they used what is called a fishing operation. that leads them to a page that changes their password. we saw it happen to john podesta when his e-mails were released. the exact same tactics they used. >> podesta gets hacked and he says this is from gmail, you need to change your password. he puts in his password. >> the exact thing happened here? >> that's correct. and we traced it back to the russian gru. >> when did this happen?
>> the first known incident was late last year. we have a screen cap from a saved page that microsoft captured from september 26. had clicked the link and went to change his password. in august, the president traveled to missouri. and specifically said vote her out of office. so we are not sure what initiated. but they occurred around the same time that the president was in missouri and using his perch to campaign against mccaskill. you have september 26 a senior policy adviser is a victim of this. and clicks on the link. >> we don't have evidence to believe this was successful. but that is basically what happened.
>> it sounds from the reporting and i read the story a number of times, it sounds like microsoft because rather than gmail, and they were sort of putting up an imposter website that looked like it. and microsoft figured this out. >> microsoft executives spoke at the aspen security forum and mentioned that they pinpointed three candidates that they had sort of found that this was happening for and that led us to track down who those candidates were. and the first instance we found so far was that clare mccaskill was the first one. >> so he gets up and says we have found three attempts of three candidates. and you guys heard that.
and you go to work, forensically tracked it down. there are two more at least? >> that is right. and what microsoft was able to do was create what is called a sink hole server where they get it themselves. they knew it was happening and caught it in its tracks and no evidence to believe the hack was successful. >> this is literally the exact same game plan they are running. >> exactly. they did it to john podesta. and not only did they do this but indicted for this two weeks ago by the mueller probe. >> thank you so much for your great work. appreciates it. >> coming up. announces his bid for speaker of the house. fire fighting is a very dangerous profession.
in gas and electric is pg&e. we run about 2,500/2,800 fire calls a year and on almost every one of those calls pg&e is responding to that call as well. and so when we show up to a fire and pg&e shows up with us it makes a tremendous team during a moment of crisis. i rely on them, the firefighters in this department rely on them, and so we have to practice safety everyday. utilizing pg&e's talent and expertise in that area trains our firefighters on the gas or electric aspect of a fire and when we have an emergency situation we are going to be much more skilled and prepared to mitigate that emergency for all concerned. the things we do every single day that puts ourselves in harm's way, and to have a partner that is so skilled at what they do is indispensable, and i couldn't ask for a better partner.
representative jim jordan has chosen a curious time to launch his bid for speaker of the house. he mentioned the need to do the right thing on nondiscretionary spending. in the midst of a scandal of turning a blind eye to numerous sexual allegations. he says the men accusing him are lying. for more on impeachment i am
third renewal on the fisa application for page, he signed off on the third renewal when he was in office. and it had a lot of material in it that the first three didn't showing that they had hit pay dirt information with respect to being a russian agent. without which he wouldn't have gotten a renewal and saying he shouldn't have signed off on it.
because in the first one, not the fourth one which is the one he signed off on. they say that the steele dossier was used part of the application that was true and they didn't tell the judge, the judges that the steele document was compiled by somebody who was paid for it by an alternative campaign, except that they did tell them specifically and nunes and this point jordan is lying about it. >> paul ryan says he doesn't
>> does that concern you? >> of course it concerns me. >> should someone in the house investigate it? >> probably, yeah. >> impeachment would be something in your bali wick. what do you think about this argument, this is an abstracted argument. obstructing justice is impossible if he is doing it loudly and publicly. >> that is absurd. to make that argument is to say the president is a king and cannot do wrong. if the president does something within his power cannot be a crime is what they are saying. and it is nonsense. if the president decides to increase agricultural subsidies that may be in his power. if he decides to do that because someone wrote him a check, that is bribery. if they do it for an improper motive, it is a crime. >> i have been wondering about exactly what a house in democratic control would have access to.
and one thing that i have wondered to, could the house get the president's tax return? >> absolutely. could subpoena the president's tax returns. for example, if the judiciary committee were looking into the question of the president's violation of the em mollument issue. if there is reason to believe that he hadn't paid taxes properly, or perhaps something interesting about his tax policy that might be reflected. >> it strikes me, you know, one thing during the campaign and the president refused to release his tax returning and yada-yada his way through. and then was sworn in. and then he said he is filing for an extension. it is crazy to me that we haven't seen his taxes while president.
>> it is crazy. and if you ask him about it, sarah sanders says nobody cares about it, it is over. but it is not over. it is crucial. one thing for example, the big elephant in the room, from the campaign, the president is nasty. nasty to the prime minister of australia. and the only person he is obsequious to is president putin. we know from his son saying so, much of his money came from russia from the last 15 or so years and we certainly would want to look and see maybe putin has something over him.
>> congressman, thanks for joining us. >> we are hours away from the court mandated deadline for the trump administration to reunite the thousands of families they zipped apart. new stories. and tonight, thing one, thing two, next. i'm alex trebek here to tell you about the colonial penn program. if you're age 50 to 85 and looking to buy life insurance on a fixed budget, remember the three p's. what are the three p's? the three p's of life insurance on a fixed budget are price, price, and price. a price you can afford, a price that can't increase, and a price that fits your budget. i'm 65 and take medications.
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thing one tonight is the sea quest. 164-foot mega yacht. she has been on leak erie in ohio. someone un-moored the sea quest. sustaining an estimated five to then thousand dollars damage from scrapes and scratches. police looking for surveillance video. so they have not yet determined if the person who did it knew that the owner was the mega rich billionaire secretary of education betsy devos. one would imagine the devos family has insurance to cover the damage and luckily, they have nine other yachts they can ride in.
and i hope you look around and see all of these empty seats and realize even in new york city, people will not come and pay money to hear you speak. i read the reviews. it is a garbage book. >> take him down. >> easy. >> it is a garbage book. and you are a garbage person. >> it ain't all rainbows and unicorns here, pal. holding a sign reading lol, fox news won't hire you. number one, and number four on that list are fox hosts.
the story of how columbus, ohio police detectives came to arrest stormy daniels earlier this month has become problematic to say the least. paid off to keep her story under wraps was arrested at a columbus, ohio strip club. originally claiming daniels was taken into custody as part of a long-term investigation into allegations of human trafficking, prostitutions and
other vice related violations. kind of weird. i mean, the charges were dismissed the next day. columbus police chief said a mistake was made. now we know that it was. e-mails first reported by derek meyers indicate the arrest of stormy daniels by the columbus vice squad appears to have been planned in advance. vice unit detective e-mailed herself news clippings about stormy's up coming performance as well as a screen shot of the club she was performing. and a picture of her with donald trump.
today is the deadline for the trump administration to reunify children with their parents. so far 1442 children out of more than 2.5000 are with their parents. even for those parents, about 900 have final orders of deportation. as soon as they're reunited, they could be sent right back to the violence they fled. that doesn't include the 431 children whose parents have been deported and who the administration argues have lost the right to get their kids back at all. to help me understand, i am joined by my guests.
all right. the status report we got, the hearing is tomorrow. what did we learn? >> so the numbers that you just laid out, what's weird is that the government is sort of changing the finish line. like you're running a race and then you decide you're at the end. it is really hard to keep track of what goal they're trying to meet here. a few today's ago they said they were trying to reunite children with 1632 parents and now they said that it is at six clog a.m. this morning, they were able to reunite children 1442 children. so we're changing what we're comparing. are we looking at the number children or parents? it is hard to figure out if they're getting there.
and i asked that question and said what goal? what is the number you're trying to reach to say you've reunified all the eligible children? which we know is up for debate. the answer i got was the date is dynamic. and that brings a lot of follow-up questions to ask. >> what we should say is that even by their own numbers, they're not reuniting everyone. they're saying there are 900 who don't qual zpi a big part of that is because the parents have been deported. what you've seen on the ground among clients of yours. >> exactly. it is a sign of how low this administration has sunk that we are right now talking and rounding off to the nearest 100 the number of families have been separated. if just one sfam separated by our administration, that's unacceptable. that's what we deal with on the ground. we're representing these people one by one. we're seeing families had large numbers start to come into the family detection centers.
people held if for profit prisons with their children. this could be a mother in the cell with her 16-year-old son. we're seeing and we know that there are many families who have been deported. even for those getting released, we talk had weekend the a woman who we represent named darlin. in the days before she was to be reunified, the day she was supposed to be reunified, they mixed up the paperwork and they had her 13-year-old daughter in a car on the way to the detention center. because of the mix-up, they said, i'll sorry, your mother doesn't want you and doesn't want you. that will permanently scar that young girl. there are hundreds, thousands of people are young and going to be permanently traumatized by had a has happened to them and we did that to them. we have to opponent as an entire nation now. for the rest of my life, we are going to be that country that hurt so many children. >> there's a question, he makes a good point, each one of these is a human being, a cluster of families.
if they were ours, or i or anyone would be in just utter distress. these numbers, well, we're plus 200, down 200. it is important to keep that in mind. it seems like the end game is getting everyone out. renouncing asylum rights. we know they were trying get female sign papers. a lot of these people will be sent back to what they fled at great peril. >> that's right. and there's been a question over who exactly signed the rights away. they've only been able to tell us that about 85 of the deported parents signed waiver and we know there are about 431 children with deported parents. so it is a question of, how many of those were deported before they were even read their rights? even given the option to reunion white their children? and how many understood what they were signing?
there were multiple affidavits of those who did not speak the language on the application. parents who were told they were signing to release their child. not understanding they were waving away unification rights. and then there are numbers on call, how to get legal advice, but that form didn't go into effect until july 9th. all the forms said do you want to be deported with or without your children? it didn't say they may still have outstanding rights to asylum. >> over and above the separation issue. has the trump administration broken u.s. law and asylum in the way they've handled this? >> without a doubt. it is against both domestic and international law to refuse to allow individuals to apply for asylum. contrary to what many people have said on television, you cannot apply for asylum at the sim in your home country. there's no process and it would be a suicide mission to do that while you're still in a dangerous country.
so without a doubt, what they have done is they have forcibly removed children from their parents against their will. they've held them that confinement, they've kept them away from their parents and used that separation, the distress and the trauma of that to force hundreds of families on sign away their rights to asylum. a pro affection they dearly need. there are people who will die as a result of these deportations. it is just a fact. >> all right. thank you very much for taking some time this tonight. >> as always, do not forget on check out our podcast, why is this happening? we've covered preferring the family separation with the attorney on the aclu for that case we were just talking about. there will be a hearing tomorrow. to this week's episode about discriminatory housing policies, which yes, could easily be a boring topic but i promise it is a fascinating conversation. if you don't believe it, read what other people are saying searching our #with pod.
that's "all in" for this evening. breaking tonight, donald trump knew in advance about the trump tower meeting ie cording the michael cohen. this is the meeting where don junior was supposed to learn russian dirt on hillary clinton. blockbuster reporting from the wall street journal. the cfo for the trump organization, the day-to-day money man, the highest ranking non-trump has been subpoenaed. mueller's case for obstruction. why the special counsel is looking at the president's twitter feed. we'll look at what it means for this president and the white house from the reporters breaking the story as the 11th hour gets under way on a thursday evening. good evening once again from new york. day 553 of this trump administration. there's breaking news yet again tonight and it's this. a source saying michael cohen