tv Kasie DC MSNBC July 29, 2018 4:00pm-6:00pm PDT
no question about it. talk to your doctor about chantix. ♪ ♪ welcome to "kasie d.c." i'm kasie hunt. we are live in washington from 7:00 to 9:00 eastern. tonight the president lashes out against robert mueller claiming conflicts of interest. plus russia gate travels to the worst airport gate in america. don junior and robert mueller treated to the lucid nightmare that is gate 35 x at reagan national airport. at the same time the president's inner circle is fighting it out in federal court and the court of public opinion. later we'll talk to senator chris van hollen about matters
foreign and domestic. he floetsz new sanctions for months could you as tariffs start to turn politically toxic at home. but we begin with a series of tweets from the president late today including a greatest hits of grievances against special counsel robert mueller. quote, is robert mueller ever going to release his conflicts of interest with respect to president trump, including the fact that we had a very nasty and contentious business relationship? i turned him down to head the fbi one day before appointment as special counsel and comey is his close friend. michael schmidt in "the new york times" reported back in january that amid the first wave of news media reports that mueller was examining a possible obstruction case, the president began to argue that he had three conflicts of interest that disqualified him from overseeing the investigation. joining me now to talk about all this is ken vogel of "the new york times" and also the law firm of butler rocca and dershowitz, former federal prosecutor georgetown law 0 professor and legal analyst paul butler. former assistant u.s. attorney
for the southern district of new york also an msnbc legal analyst mimi rocca, and professor emeritus at harvard law school, alan dershowitz. he is the author of the book the case against impeaching trump. thanks to all of you for being with us on this sunday night. ken vogel, i want to start with you just in terms of what we've been seeing out of the white house from this president today. what prompted this flurry of tweets? >> well, clearly he's fairly under a lot of pressure. michael cohen is coming out publicly and releasing the tape of the conversation regarding a payoff to a woman who alleged he had an affair with her, has seemed to set him off in a way we haven't seen him really, you know, focusing quite so much anger towards his former associates as he is now. and then it's additionally just the building of this case that the mueller investigation is biased and we saw him as you put it airing a greatest hits of grievances including what i loosely call the nonsecond wh s.
>> we can't figure out who the extra four are. >> the claim a number of prosecutors have donate today democrats. that is true. mueller is a republican. no doubt he is pursuing this in a matter that is dictated by the law and facts as opposed to any political grievances. >> sure. mimi rocca, to pick up on that point, this is a situation where robert mueller, first of all, is a republican, was registered republican and can't use party affiliation in hiring his attorneys to make a decision about hiring them. >> absolutely. it would be impermissible, perhaps even illegal for him to have done that. and the mere point here, something that donald trump and people who see things only through a political lens can't seem to understand is that fbi
agents and prosecutors for the most part -- i'm not sailing there are -- saying there are no exceptions, people who are punl servants who dedicate their lives to service like this don't do their work through a political lens. that doesn't mean they don't have political beliefs, but they are not out to get donald trump because of his politics. they are doing an investigation and following the facts and they will go wherever that takes them. and it doesn't matter who it is that you're investigating. it matters what crimes you're looking at and is there evidence of them. >> alan dershowitz, one of the claims in one of these tweets is that he says he had a very nasty and contentious business relationship with robert mueller. there has been other reporting that says that this may be around mueller's purported membership at the trump national golf club and a dispute over fees. why is the president elevating this like this? >> well, first of all, has nothing to do with cohen because cohen is not in mueller's camp. cohen is in the southern district of new york.
his whole case is based in the southern district of new york. the case has nothing to do with mueller so i don't think it's correct to say that it was the cohen issue that stimulated him to write the tweets about mueller. look, if the president thinks that mueller should be recused, his lawyers have a right to go to court and seek recusal. i have strongly urged that that be done with rod rosenstein. rod rosenstein has the clearest possible conflict of interest if there is an obstruction of justice investigation against the president. because he wrote the letter and becomes a major witness in the case. >> does he have a leg to stand on in calling for the special prosecutor to recuse in your view? >> it does not sound like a strong case to me, but it sounds like an credibly compelling case to ask to have rod rosenstein. i don't even see the argument on the other side. you cannot be both the major witness in an investigation and heading the investigation itself. i don't know why rod rosenstein hasn't recused himself.
i don't know why strzok didn't recuse himself. you know, you make decisions on your own. you don't have to wait for anybody else to do it. strzok knew, notwithstanding the fact, yes, people see the case not through the lens of their own bias. but when you write messages saying, we have to stop this president. we need a guarantee, we need a life insurance policy. you do not continue to investigate that person. so i think self-recusal should have been the way to go for both strzok and rosenstein. but i think as far as mueller is concerned, i don't think it's a very strong case for recusal. >> paul butler, weigh in on this. is there? >> i'm going to agree with my former criminal law professor alan dershowitz there are concerns about rod rosenstein. but his answer is he's checked. he's discussed those issues with the ethics office of the department of justice and they say there's no reason for him to recuse himself. with regard to mr. mueller, again, what the president says is that he's a good friend of
james comey, that they had this issue with regard to a country club or golf club and fees, and that mueller worked for the firm that represented jared kushner. under guidelines of the department of justice, none of those by themselves mean that there has to be a recusal. what the department rules are is if there is a close personal or financial relationship with a subject, then the prosecutor has to recuse herself or himself. here there is no evidence of that. mr. mueller would have been vetted extensively by rod rosenstein and other people at the department of justice before he was selected. >> good to have that perspective here. but meanwhile, we also want to make sure we touch on the other big story today which of course is michael cohen. you will be surprised to learn rudy giuliani tells abc news the joint defense agreement between the president and michael cohen has officially ended. of course, it comes as the p.r. battle between cohen's lawyers and the president's continues to play out in plain sight for the world to see. or in the case of audio recordings, to hear.
and right now this much is clear. cohen has already released one potentially problematic tape involving the president. and he says he has more. >> we know of something like 183 unique conversations on tape. one of those is with the president of the united states. that's the three-minute one involving, involving the mcdougal payment, ami/mcdougal payment. there are 12 others, maybe 11 or 12 others out of the 183 in which the president is discussed at any length. >> cohen apparently has a story to tell as well. according to a knowledgeable source, he's prepared to tell robert mueller that the president knew in advance about that 2016 trump tower meeting between his son and a russian lawyer. ken vogel, my sources are telling me that if this is cohen telling the truth and obviously you can imagine that it breaks
down a little bit along partisan lines who thinks cohen was lying to them and who thinks cohen is lying now, but at the very least we know that he was asked in these congressional situations whether or not the president knew about the trump tower meeting beforehand. >> right, and our understanding is that he said no, which was the party line at the time. so for him now to be coming out and saying that he has this bit of evidence, that just so happens to be really the closest thing to a smoking gun that you could have for building the case that he had advance -- both the collusion case that the president had advance knowledge of an offer by a foreign power to provide something of benefit, potentially in violation of campaign finance laws, to his campaign. and then additionally, the obstruction charge this would be the closest thing to the smoking gun there because the president, as we now know, helped don junior compose and put out this statement that said something
very opposite from what michael cohen is saying now about trump's advance knowledge or at least sort of contemporary knowledge of this alleged -- of this alleged meeting or of this meeting. >> right. alan dershowitz, you have written the case against impeaching trump ahead of, of course, knowing exactly what robert mueller is going to find. who do you believe here? if cohen is telling the truth and that he knows and can provide evidence of the idea that the president did know about this trump tower meeting ahead of time and proceeded to, you know, write a statement on air force one that was given to the public that expressly said the opposite, how is that not problematic? >> well, three things. first of all, i wrote the book, case against impeaching trump, because i wanted to layout the criteria for impeachment. and in my view they require the commission of a crime. controversial, people disagree. but obviously if there were evidence of a crime, there would be a case for impeachment.
second, you're not correct when you said, quote, cohen has already released one tape. if cohen had released that tape, he'd be disbarred obviously because it was ruled by the -- >> you mean rudy giuliani wasn't correct? okay, i'm following. >> you have to get the facts straight. let me be clear. so, cohen didn't -- certainly doesn't acknowledge he released the tape because he'd be disbarred if he did. the tape leaked as i understand it and only then did rudy giuliani after the content of the tape leaked did he say that he waived that tape. but if cohen, in fact, leaked the tape, he'd have a real problem because the judge has ruled -- the judge who was appointed -- the former judge has ruled that it was privileged. as far as the smoking gun of collusion, it's a wonderful smoking gun. the problem is there is no such crime as collusion. even if the president colluded with the russians, and even if he knowingly went to the meeting -- no evidence of this -- hoping to get material that had already been acquired by the russians that was dirt on
hillary clinton, that would be as constitutionally privileged as "the new york times" going to a meeting and getting material from the pentagon papers, from snowden, from manning. you're entitled to use under the first amendment material that has already been obtained. what makes it a crime is if you tell one of the sources to go and do something illegal, hack the democratic national committee. so, as i argue in my book, we have to make a sharp distinction between political sins and actual crimes. and collusion is not a crime. and the case for obstruction of justice based on tweets and public statements is about as weak a case as i have ever seen laid out by "the new york times." >> we want to just point out to our viewers that you just watched the president get onto marine one off of air force one at joint base andrews. he is returning from a weekend at bedminster. we'll keep an eye on all that and ski if he takes questions for press waiting for him at the white house. ken vogel, your response to
what mr. dershowitz was saying. >> yes, if you think that is a violation of campaign finance violation, knowledge of campaign finance violation, and an effort to cover that up by mischaracterizing and miss reporting on a federal election commission, filing that there was something of value, sought or received, from a foreign power. >> okay. now that's a good question. 9 answer is that something of value is first amendment protected information. then the campaign finance law has to be construed as it was intended, to cover money and other material payments. but if it were construed to cover information to be used in a campaign, it would violate the first amendment. >> a foreign power spent money to develop and then provide that was not public information. >> i don't understand that. what money -- >> that's what i mean. you don't think that russia spent money to try to develop this case against bill broaderror the zip brothers or whoever this information?
>> don't you think the people from wikileaks and the people from manning and don't you think they spent money and the pentagon papers? it costs money to get information. >> that was not provided to the campaign. that was provided directly to the campaign. >> if you're trying to target a person, you can stretch the law that way. but that's not the way civil liberties lawyers should approach a problem of criminal law. the concept of it requires that you define the criminal law in the narrowest possible way, not the broadest possible way. you don't search for skriecrime. show me the man and i'll find you the crime. you have to find crimes that are obvious and apparent, not based on an accordion-like stretching of the laws. that's what worries me as a civil libertarian. i'd make the same arguments if hillary clinton were charged with obstruction and the tapes and iphone, all of that.
it's the same argument. >> paul butler, what do you think? >> if donald trump knew in advance about this meeting where allegedly the russians were going to provide dirt on hillary, three other crimes in addition to the campaign finance ones, obstruction of justice because he dictated a memo about this meeting are that was a lie. it was obviously an intent to throw people off, including the prosecutors. if he knew that the dirt was coming from hacked e-mail, he would also be guilty of computer fraud under federal laws. >> no. no. no. >> conspiracy to defraud the united states. >> none of that is true. >> jared kushner -- jared kushner said under oath in congress that the president did not know about this meeting. so what mueller does with that is possibly -- >> i'm not sure kushner was under oath. >> i'm sorry, don junior. >> lying to congress is a crime. >> don junior testified under oath the president did not know about this meeting.
what mueller might do is charge don junior with perjury and use that to squeeze president trump, possibly to get him to resign or to agree not to run for reelection in exchange for the prosecutor going easy on his son don junior. >> we're going to put pause -- hang on, i'm sorry. >> i'm very proud of that. >> everyone is trying to jump in. we're going to push pause on this conversation briefly. everyone is going to stay put. manafort's trial is set to begin tuesday. it a full preview as they name 35 witnesses who could be called on to testify including his former deputy rick gates who has already pleaded guilty to fraud. and later our series on women to washington. my interview with katie and days later was critically injured in a crash with a drunk driver. i join her as she returned to the campaign trail. alright guys let's go! let's do this directions to the greek theater (beep) ♪can i get a connection?
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all right. we all took a brief breath on what we were arguing about earlier. mimi rocca, were you trying to weigh in at the end. what's your take? >> thanks, kasie. i just think, first of all, it's remarkable mr. dershowitz's initial argument now, how far we've come. originally trump's defense was there was no meeting. then it was there was a meeting but they only talked about adoptions. then it was trump didn't know about the meeting. now it appears we've gotten to the point he knew about but no crime was committed. i think that that in and of itself, the sort of path of this
defense by trump's team is telling, but i also think we can't look at this meeting in isolation. it is very significant, if true, that he knew about the meeting. that doesn't mean that a crime begins and ends there. you have to look at everything that came before it and everything that came after it. remember, after that meeting is when trump gave that speech, calling on the russians to get more of hillary clinton's e-mails, and they actually did, we know, go in then and start fishing into her campaign directly. >> basically the day of, day after. >> yes. >> let me answer that, please. >> you can't look at it in isolation. >> mr. dershowitz? >> let me answer that, please. you are implying in a kind of mccarthy-ite way that i am somehow defending trump and that i am making his case. shame on you. i am making a civil liberties case. i am not part of the trump defense team and don't you dare accuse me of doing that.
i am not making a case for anybody. i would be making the identical case if hillary clinton had been elected and they were trying to stretch the law the way all four of you are trying to stretch the law to target somebody who you disapprove of. i am the only person on the show who is trying to defend civil liberties. give me at least an opportunity to make that case and don't accuse me of making a case for somebody i'm not making ats case for. >> i'm responding to what you're saying. >> i am not responsible for what trump said earlier >> you are defending him, sir. and to your point, the president's story has changed repeatedly. >> i am not defending him. i am defending civil liberties and a narrow construction -- >> you're defending him in the name of civil liberties. >> i am defending the concept of lenny at this. i have to tell you, if the evidence were to point to crime, whether it be of hillary clinton or donald trump of or of you i
am going to make that case. but i am not going to make the law stretch for an individual who is very unpopular. that's my view. get it clear. >> we are going to press because on this conversation because we want to turn to the trial of paul manafort which is set to begin tuesday in alexandra, virginia. peshl counsel robert mueller's team has named 35 witnesses that may be called by prosecutors to testify in court. among them former deputy rick gates who plead guilty to financial fraud and lying to investigators. also named is former chief strategist for bernie sanders 2016 presidential run, tad devine who helped manafort elect strong man victoriktor. 35 witnesses are set to testify. ken vogel, as we look at the layout, this is another instance where the president has rewritten history, essentially argued that manafort who was his campaign chairman, ran his national convention, was merely a peon who wasn't all that
important, but he is in fact now on trial. and because he has taken to this point deciding not to plead, we're going to get a lot of information publicly. >> that's right. although the prosecutors will be walking a fine line here. there's already been some tension where the judge has seemed to come down on the side of the defense, suggesting that taking their side and their argument that the prosecution was using this to try to get into subjects like the trump campaign, like this alleged collusion with russia when, in fact, the charges that are actually at issue here relate to work that paul manafort did in ukraine on behalf of this politician, victor yanakovich and his subsequent successor party. it was, in fact, a russia-aligned party, but very different and, in fact, i would point out that it did reach all the way up, this work reach all the way up to almost the very beginning of the u.s. presidential campaign in 2016. so, you can see why the line might blur, but manafort's
supporters and his lawyers argue that that work and that the effort to hide the alleged effort to hide the money that was made, the millions, tens of millions of dollars that were made from that work have nothing to do with his work on the u.s. presidential campaign. >> paul butler, it seems pretty clear in this case prosecutors have been trying to get manafort to basically tell them what he knows. they didn't necessarily want to get to this point, but manafort has dug in, perhaps holding out for a pardon. we don't know. but as ken points out, these charges are different from a potential case of collusion or obstruction on the president's part. >> they have very little to do with mueller's mandate, which is to investigate conspiracy to defraud the united states, which is the criminal version of collusion and obstruction of justice. so what manafort is charged with are financial crimes relating to his own business. it's clear, though, based on the way mueller is prosecuting this case, with his top prosecutors on the case, that he thinks that
manafort has information that's relevant to his investigation, and so he's charged him with failing to register, which first of all, is very rarely prosecuted, but relatively easy to prove. and so a question is why has manafort not pled guilty. he's 69 years old, he's looking at at least 15 years in prison. the answer, i think, is, a, he's either innocent, or b, he's more afraid of the russians than he is of mueller. but there is still an opportunity. i'm sure mimi will agree. i've prosecuted many people who didn't plead guilty until the day of trial. >> he's got two opportunities because this is just the first trial. and then the second one coming up in d.c. in the d.c. circuit in october. and that will be the one that gets a little bit closer to some of these issues, including foreign agents registration act alleged violations. >> ken vogel, paul butler, mimi rocca, thank you for our lively
conversation. next i'm joined by ken stein, maria teresa kumar. first, president trump's $12 billion bailout for the farm industry being hit hard by tariffs. apparently isn't the answer some gop lawmakers were looking for. we're back after this. >> we want trade, not aid. >> my farmers don't want aid, not trade. >> we want trade, not aid. >> give me trade, not aid. so you have, your headphones, chair,
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to have a partner that is so skilled at what they do is indispensable, and i couldn't ask for a better partner. here's a can of coca-cola. here's a can of coca-cola. coca-cola has 3 cents of aluminum in it. if that goes up 10%, that's 3/10 of a cent. i just paid $1.49 for this can of coke. it doesn't mean anything. so all this hysteria is a lot to do about nothing. >> right. >> can of diet coke getting expensive because of the 10% tariff on imported aluminum, which makes this can more costly to produce. >> welcome back. coca-cola says it expects to pass on higher prices to
consumers because of those tariffs and now global auto powers like japan, mexico, the european union and south korea are preparing to meet next week to discuss a response to the president's threats to impose new tariffs on automobiles and car parts. and as soon as september, farmers will be getting a $12 billion aid package designed to help them bounce back as a result of aggressive tariff policies. for more on all of this, i want to bring in chairman and chief strategist for priorities usa also former political director for hillary clinton, guy cecil. it and in los angeles nbc news correspondent jo ling kent. jo, i want to start with you just to take a look at the policies here and to help explain why it is that these things are getting passed along. how much are everyday consumers start to feel these tariffs in their own pocketbooks? when we saw the last quarter had higher growth, the president's been tweeting about the economy, experts saying, look, it's because we're about to turn
around and fueel the economic impact of this. >> that was because of soybean applications that happened last quarter. what we can expect going forward is kind of a mixed reaction. we've been out reporting all across the country looking at the different impacts from soybeans to aluminum, to cars, even lobsters vaughn hillyard has reported on. it remains to be seen what the actual impact will be. right now there is a lot of concern about how the increased costs will actually be passed down. but some of these manufacturers and some of these farmers are are also saying they are willing to take this and stomach this because they do believe in a larger picture that would be positive for the overall economy, so it really depends on who you ask here. certainly big companies like harley davidson starting to make some pretty big changes to their production plans. >> all right. guys, we'll talk about the politics of this. there have been a lot of democrats who have seen this as a potential boon for their, excuse me, congressional campaigns whether for house or for senate.
do you think that independent voters on the ground will be willing to blame the president for this? we've talked to an awful will the of supporters. jo mentioned vaughn hillyard who has been doing a lot of reporting for us. while this may be difficult for me, i think the president is trying to do the right thing. >> i think they're going to have problems. you don't have to take my word for it. look how republicans are reacting to this. republicans in iowa, in kansas, in places where -- >> do you think they're doing that because they think they're going to lose elections? >> yes. >> or because they oppose -- >> i think politicians raise alarm bells because they think things are happening that are going to cost them elections. i think two things are happening. one is you have the huge tax cuts that were given to corporations. none of those benefits were passed down to taxpayers. none of them were passed down to employees. they were passed to stock buy backs. now you have tariffs and where are all the costs being passed to? consumers. so i think you have democrats and republicans on the hill and back in their districts who are hearing in town halls, hearing on the phones that these are bringing real problems to
american consumers, to farmers, to american companies. and i think ultimately they are going to pay a price at the ballot box. it's another example of the president saying one thing about caring about the middle class and the working class, and about the midwest, and doing something entirely different to throw the economy into shambles. >> jo ling kent, i think the president's team would likely respond to what guy just said by saying, well, the president does care about these farmers. he's giving them a $12 billion aid package to try to tide things over while this kind of long-term policy plays out. how significant is $12 billion in the scheme of things? and also, i mean, this only affects certain producers. there are others who are not going to be receiving this aid package, but who are still hit by these tariffs. >> the critics say it is a band aid and it may not have been needed at the beginning had these tariffs not been put into place. but what we expect to see for the consumer, over the next couple of months, is exactly how that cost is passed down because when you do have companies like
coca-cola and others starting to make price decisions based off of decisions now with the current administration and their current policies, that will eventually be passed down to consumers over the next, say, three to six months or even a year or so. that's the concern that, say, the average walmart shopper is going to have going forward, how much of that is going to be passed down and then how much of it will actually impact me. because if the attitude of the company that's producing the stuff that you're buying is getting jittery, if that anxiety goes up, that means prices will rise because they're going to be girding for the worst case scenario. >> guy cecil, from the kind of -- the big picture version of this, if everyone is looking at the worst case scenario as jo said, consumers are getting nervous, companies are getting nervous and there is a real reckoning over this in the congress, say, democrats have not exactly been on the opposite side of this issue in every case. if you talk to, say, brown in
ohio, he's not going to be out there saying these tariffs that the president has implemented on steel and aluminum are a bad thing. is that going to change? >> i think there's two things. one, just on your previous point, the idea that a septigenari septigenarian waving a can of coke shows how ill prepared they are to push back on what are some real legitimate questions to pass down. >> this is a classic moment on television. >> yes. >> but fair. >> look, there are always differences on both sides of this issue, but i don't think you will find a democrat that thinks the solution to building a robust economy is providing endless amounts of aid to any community while not dealing with the underlying issues at stake, right? that's the primary issue, that there is no cohesive policy on the part of this administration. when you have sherrod brown on, he can layout what he believes are the key points of a fair trade agreement regardless of what that agreement is.
when you talk to anyone in this administration, they run from point to point, argument to argument. they create problems in order to solve them. i mean, just look at the -- >> i'm still not hearing you say democrats on the whole think these tariffs on the whole are a bad idea. >> i think they think it is a bad idea. >> status update. social media. we're back after this. you've got a good record and liberty mutual won't hold a grudge by raising your rates over one mistake. you hear that, karen? liberty mutual doesn't hold grudges... how mature of them. for drivers with accident forgiveness liberty mutual won't raise their rates because of their first accident. liberty mutual insurance. ♪ liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty ♪ around here, nobody evreally? it i didn't do it so when i heard they added ultra oxi to the cleaning power of tide, i knew it was just what we needed so now we can undo all the tough stains that nobody did
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[music playing] (ceo) haven't been playing golf this year, i am sorry about that. (vo) progress is in the pursuit. audi will cover your first month's lease payment on select models during summer of audi sales event. on wednesday the senate intelligence committee is going to hold public hearings on how foreign influences are exploiting social media platforms. it comes as facebook tries to recover from a number of scandals involving user privacy from cambridge analytica's improper use of data affecting 87 million profiles to russian operatives alleged use of the site to influence the presidential race. and during a call with reporters, facebook declined three times to answer whether there are any current attempts to influence the 2018 midterm elections. and this week, facebook saw its
stock plummet by nearly $120 billion, the largest drop in value in wall street history. on friday, twitter stock slid 12% after the social media platform announced that monthly active users have fallen by 1 million since last quarter. joining me now to break all of this down is media reporter for axios sarah fisher. we still have with us jo ling kent and guy cecil. sarah, let me start with you here. what do you attribute what happened with facebook to? the incredible drop in value, is it simply because the users are down, is it concerns about privacy, why? >> it's a bunch of those types of things. definitely privacy is playing into some of its expenditures. it has to hire more people to oversee programs. really what analyst wills tell you it shows they are hitting a growth wall when it comes to advertising. facebook warned investors it would slow in the news feed. we are seeing it happened. and investors know that, which is why the stock plummeted in response. >> jo ling kent, you were on
that call, and i think it was -- you may have asked -- walk us through, feel free to explain it, but you were listening to facebook trying to get answers from them about what is actually happening in the 2018 mid terms. sounds like you couldn't come up with anything. >> yeah, reporters asked multiple times and i was on the call, whether or not there is currently any attempts to meddle or influence the 2018 midterm elections, be it from the russians or any other state or nonstate entities. and the answer was basically a nonresponse. we do know that in the past mark zuckerberg, founder and ceo of facebook, has said, look, it's probably happening, but there's been no definitive evidence or desire to share that with journalists so far. but what we have been seeing is an ongoing -- two things people should know about. first, an ongoing disinformation campaign even happening within the u.s. we're talking about fake profile pages, tons of disinformation and stuff being shared through the algorithm. so facebook is now responding to that saying they are going to downgrade that ability to share that information, but the
concern is how much does that affect elections as well. and the other issue, of course, is the growth. what we're planning to see or expect to see is more monetization of facebook or excuse me, instagram and what's app. those are two apps that have continued to grow as facebook, the main platform, continues to kind of grow a little bit more slowly. >> i want to read you this quote from alex who is the outgoing chief security officer at facebook. he says, quote, we need to listen to people including internally when they tell us a feature is creepy or point out a negative impact we are having in the world. we need to dee prioritize short-term growth and revenue and explain to wall street why that's okay. we need to be willing to pick sides when there are clear moral or humanitarian issues. and we need to be open, honest and transparent about our challenges and what we are doing to fix them. guy cecil, do you think mark zuckerberg is living up to that goal? >> no, and i think the opaque nature with which facebook approaches these things is problematic and it reveals the fact if we expect them to
regulate themselves and to police themselves, it's simply not going to work. just this week, we have seen a number of reports about fashion book very slowly failing to identify alex jones and info wars as an acceptable user on their platform. these are the same people that suggest that sandy hook was a hoax. that the democrats are out to literally kill millions of mr americans. that pedalled pizza gate. this represents a real problem on their part. how do you police, judge, incorporate political activity, whether it's from russia, which they failed to identify as a problem in this election, or if it's coming from within our own country. and i think they have a lot of room to grow and improve. they say they are trying. there are hints that they are trying. i don't think it's enough. >> jo ling kent, what's your -- you've been reporting on zuckerberg and facebook quite deeply for many months now. do you think that -- i also
listened to an interview he did with cara swisher where they ended up discussing people who deny the holocaust on facebook and their position really seems to be that all of this kind of speech is free speech and it's not their role to police it. is that something that you think is going to change or not? >> the spirit of it coming from zuckerberg at least doesn't appear like it's going to change any time soon. there has been a lot of pressure including from us journalists and others to really talk about the level transparency and the facebook, it likes it or not, a distributor of a lot of information in a very powerful way. and so zuckerberg has to take a closer look. right now, though, there doesn't seem to be much financial incentive for him to do so because even though the rate of users that are logging onto the platform continues to slow down, there is still quite a bit of growth there. they are still making money hand over fist right now. so for him to actually do that -- oh, and by the way, he still controls the board of
directors. so him leaving isn't exactly a threat either. so looking at what should actually happen, the alex jones situation in info wars, if those two entities are actually banned from facebook, which they may be soon due to a lot of public pressure, that may set a new standard. but that's one particular case, kasie. >> sarah, what's your reporting say about this info wars case specifically, to guy's point? a lot of inflammatory material coming from there. >> sources will say that mark zuckerberg views all these problems as being more so p.r. problems, necessarily foundational problems to the platform. meaning he almost wants to take engineering like rational approaches to every single one of these problems. how can we address the widest use case or good use as opposed to penalizing someone for censorship. what we're hearing is this is actually kay ought for for some people within facebook. p.r. people say we can't have this open view on free speech if we want to maintain a business.
we're going to get nailed if we don't do something. but from the top down, there is that desire to preserve that free speech base at facebook. >> sarah fisher, jo ling kent, thank you so much for your insights, guys, really appreciate it. when we return on "kasie d.c.," we continue our series, women to washington a candidate whose campaign nearly came to a sudden and tragic end. >> it's -- i sit back and i'm four plus weeks out and every friday night at 9:20 since then, i hold my breath and i say a prayer because i shouldn't be here. >> katie errington shocked the political world beating mark sanford in the republican primary only to be critically injured with her best friend days later. we join her as she returns to the campaign trail. back after this. i didn't believe it. again. ♪ ooh, baby, do you know what that's worth? ♪ i want to believe it.
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♪ but it's all coming back me. ♪ baby, baby, baby. ♪ if you touch me like this ♪ and when you hold me like that. ♪ all you can eat is back, baby. applebee's. eatin' good in the neighborhood. tonight, we continue our series on the historic wave of women running for office. i spent time this week with katie arrington in charleston, south carolina, her campaign has taken on a new sense of purpose in the wake of tragedy. >> i shouldn't be here. two cars hit at 60 miles an hour. how do you live through that? >> reporter: it should have been a triumphant summer for katie arrington. >> yes, yes. >> reporter: for her stunning upset victory over congressman mark sanford in the republican primary. >> we are the party of president donald j. trump.
>> reporter: but just two weeks later -- >> one person is dead following a two-car crash on highway 17 south. >> reporter: arrington and a friend were hit head-on. critically injured. >> they were on the wrong side of the highway and hit someone completely head-on, going 60 mile the per hour. they need an ambulance out here as soon as possible. >> when i undid my seat belt, my hand looked like i did it in a bucket of blood. >> reporter: the other driver died, her blood alcohol twice the legal limit. arrington says she remembers everything. >> i was dying. and i went in and they were trying to put the oxygen mask in, i could taste the blood coming out of my mouth. they said can you take a deep breath? i said, no. dr. erickson came, his face, he said -- i said please don't let me die today. he said i have no intentions of that. >> reporter: she was on a ventilator, suffered broken ribs, had part of her colon and small intestine. four weeks later -- >> i freaking love him. >> reporter: dr. erickson
treated her the night of the crash. >> how bad was it? >> pretty bad. pretty bad. miss arrington was without a doubt bleeding to death. >> your recovery has to be physical but also emotional. >> survivors guilt and ptsd are real, and it's hard not to think i'm the one who's out of the hospital, i'm the one who's alive. and why. that's been really hard for me. >> reporter: she has months of rehab ahead, but that hasn't kept her off the campaign trail. >> hello, everybody. how are you doing? don't mind these guys. >> reporter: arrington beat sanford in the primary by defending the president. >> president trump came out and gave a voice to us, the deplorab deplorables. i'm a deplorable. >> reporter: she still is even as she's facing a general election. backing the president up on tariffs. >> president trump wrote a book, i can't remember when "the art of the deal" was written. he's the master negotiator. i give him a lot of credit. >> reporter: looking past his personal life. does it bother you that the president is alleged to have an
affair with a playboy playmate? >> honestly, you give me one -- i don't -- i'm not here to judge anybody. i'm not jesus christ. >> reporter: and dismissing russian meddling. our entire intelligence community essentially said that the russian government intentionally tried to interfoointerfere in our election. by hacking and other cyber techniques. do you believe that happened or not? >> i believe every nation that has the capability tries to do things to each other without a doubt. >> the i.c. said specifically the russians. you don't think the russians did anything worse or more nefarious than any other nation? >> i think china was way worse than anything russia could have or did. >> reporter: defenses that might have worked in the primarytough general election this fall. that was katie arrington and our extended conversation, as you can see, guy, in the wake of what happened, she's as behind
president trump as ever facing down a democrat in the general election, joe cunningham. obviously ha happen lly what ha was difficult. changes the dynamics of the race. this is a district that was not as wide a margin as you might expect. >> first of all, it goes without saying if you're a democrat or republican, you're grateful that she survived the crash. >> of course. >> and that's an incredibly difficult challenge to be running for the office in that situation. it seems like the campaign is back in swing. judging from the twitter accounts of the two candidates. there are some real differences. youtariffs. last month two republican coastal mayors decided to endorse joe cunningham because of her somewhat wishy-washy opinion about oil drilling which in that district is a pretty important thing. >> right. she actually did -- in our interview, she did walk it back and we're going to make sure our viewers can watch that on twitter. it's an extended exchange. she did say finally i'm opposed to oil drilling, but you're right, that's not what she said previously. >> i always find it interesting
with a lot of republicans with who are very definitive about lot of things particularly when it comes to the democrats but when it comes to things like russia, what she wouldn't actually get the words out of her mouth or when itle comes t things that are harmful to district but important to republican ideology, all of a sudden they become different, they don't cast judgment. they don't cause blame. they become clearer in their point of view. the fact of the matter is, her record leaves a lot to desire for working people in that district. joe quill make will make it a m competitive district. >> you think he's the nominee? >> yes. on this map, this environment, we're going to find a lot of districts become competitive in october that we weren't expecting. i think that could be one of them. >> guy cecil, thank you for your insights tonight. really appreciate it. we continue, i'm joined on set by senator chris van hollen. we're going to talk about the slow process of reunifying my children separated from their
the gloves are off in the fight between president trump and his former attorney, michael cohen. cohen leaked a conversation with mr. trump he secretly taped. >> discussing a hush payment to a former playboy model. >> yes, these sound like conversations you would hear in privately. >> certainly been a breach in the relationship. >> releasing these tapes, it's a bridge too far.
>> he was surreptitiously recording his clients which is a barable offense. >> i didn't know he would grossly violate the attorney/client privilege. >> makes him a total liar. >> to my surprise, he turns out to be almost an instinctual liar. big pathological manipulator, liar. >> cohen claims president trump knew and approved of the now-infamous june 2016 meeting in trump tower. >> making it clear, he is willing to tell special counsel robert mueller -- >> about the president's denial he knew anything. >> mr. cohen, if you got something new to say, come to ko congress and say it under oath. >> i don't like the crossfire. >> there was so much meeting in advance. >> could he have known after the fact? that's possible. >> i don't see how you can believe michael cohen. >> who do you believe? >> in general, i would think the president was told about it. >> i'm going to they on the side of the president here. >> i would believe the president. >> you -- welcome to the second hour of "kasie d.c."
joining me on set maria teresa kumar. mns m m msnbc contributor sam stein. thank you all for being here. sam, can i just -- who are the american people supposed to believe? i mean, who? >> i don't know. look at that cast of characters. it's amazing. i wouldn't -- the problem here is michael cohen, his track record is not one of someone with immense credibility. >> sure. >> obviously, there are reasons why he might want to rat on the president. he's facing an immense amount of legal problems unrelated to anything having to do with russia. that being said, it's funny to watch rudy giuliani go out there and say you can't believe this guy. a month ago, he's like cohen is a great trustworthy man. >> just a month ago? >> there's also tapes, there's literally a tape that proves that michael cohen is right about -- and the most profound thing, of course, what he's essentially saying is my client,
donald trump, hired this man, michael cohen, a chronic liar, to be his lawyer for years and years and years and, therefore, you cannot trust michael cohen but you can trust donald trump. i think that's a very difficult sale. >> who do you think members of congress believe? because there are some -- when you get down into the weeds of this with michael cohen, don junior, the trump tower meeting, there's a lot of congressional testimony, members of congress heard one thing about who knew what about the meeting, heard a different thing potentially from michael cohen. we know michael cohen was asked about whether or not the president knew about this and now he's potentially saying the opposite. >> well, i think once you ask republicans on capitol hill about this, after all the cohen news that broke late nights, earlier this week, republicans weren't all too eager to talk about it per usual. democrats -- but democrats are actually saying this gives them more reasons why they, some of these characters should come back and testify, again, to capitol hill, to make -- to probe them on these additional
questions, to see whether their testimonies are consistent. >> yeah. your take on all this? >> i think we actually have a president are where people cross check him constantly and he's on record of fibbing all the time, and you have to call a lie a lie. you have michael cohen who has been his fixer now for over a decade who has him on tape contradicting stuff he has said. when you say, who do you beli believe? i believe the tapes. >> in this case, rudy giuliani is arguing strenuously that releasing the tape was a violation of attorney/client privilege, making the tape was a violation of attorney/client prich led privilege. >> they waved the attorney/client privilege. this is confusing. >> another set of credibility -- >> we're in sort of rabbit holes here because who's responsibility for this tape is sort of irrelevant because in the end, you have someone on tape directly contradicting what the president said. in this case, there were many, many instances in which they simply said, we had no knowledge of a payment that was made to a publishing company to cover up a potential affair with a
playmate. and clearly they're on the tape talking about it, so at some point you do have to step back a little bit and say, okay, well, was it cash payment or check payment? who waved the attorney/client privilege, who upheld it? in the end, it's simple, they lied. they were caught in a lie. a very agreenegregious lie and lie, too. >> a smaller issue, beside the point -- >> where this payment makes a difference is whether or not they violated campaign finance laws. >> of course. >> there seems to be a question on the tape that they're aware, acutely aware of the election, the timing, making that a very relevant point for sure. we've been talking all week about how hikemichael cohen was president trump eegs biggest defender throughout the campaign and into trump's presidency. cohen once said he would always defend his boss against false allegations and trump tweeted, " "most people will flip if the government lets them out of trouble. even if it means lying or making up stories. sorry. i don't see michael doing that. in trump's defense, it was in
some ways hard to see this coming given cohen's loyalty to his boss for so many years, in fact, long before 2016 during 2012 election, cohen advocated for his boss to be president in a race he wasn't even running in. in a "newsmax" op-ped titled "what happened to american men" written in july 2012, cohen called to make america manly again. he wrote, "let us begin by looking at our movie industry and the current cast of american superheroes." okay. "the new spiderman is english, the new superman is english." english as in from england. "x-men's wolverine is australian. the green lantern, canadian. finally, batman is english as well." >> got a point. >> point is, manufactureing has been outsourced to countries like china and the making of manly men is being outsourced." he goes on to write, "donald trump might be a showman, he's certainly an entrepreneur, most of all," oh, boy "he's an
american hero" with somehow ending the article with the conclusion, "vote mitt romney." i guess in the originens of make america great again. >> where did you find -- >> i believe -- >> truly bizarre. >> it really makes you wonder if michael -- >> it does. >> somebody -- if michael cohen so intimately knows the president, even know he has attorney/complia attorney/client privilege of the president, he knows, i'm going to have to record my conversations with the president. that's deep. >> part of the story behind this, as my colleague reported, it was really a one-way street of loyalty for a while. i mean, trump was, to put it bluntly, really rude and crude and -- >> dismissive. >> and dismissive of him. at one point, michael cohen even had this notion that he would
come to washington, d.c., and potentially be the chief of staff in the white house. he was telling friends and associates this. that was never going to happen, but the way in which he was dismissed by trump in campaign meetings and, of course, for an administration role, clearly showed that this loyalty was a one-way street and remarkable it took this long for cohen to realize it. >> he doesn't seem to be holding out hope at this point for a pardon, it seems. >> the pardon issue goes back to the whole point, whether we've seen the president dole out pardons on a whim oftentimes and we've seen whether there was been interpretations, this is a csignals tha that there's going parties on the table, we'll have to wait and see. >> meanwhile, because this wasn't the only thing, of course, that happened in the last six hours, president trump called out special counsel robert mueller by name in a series of tweets today. the president writing, "is robert mueller ever going to release his conflicts of interest with respect to president trump including the fact we had a very nasty and contentious business relationship? i turned him down to head the fbi one day before his
appointment as s.c.," special counsel." and "comey is his close friend." he ordered white house counsel don mcgahn to fire mueller over what appeared to be similar complaints. the "times" wrote at the time, "first he claimed a dispute years ago over fees at trump national golf club in sterling, virginia, prompted mr. mueller to resign his membership. the president also said mr. mueller could not be impartial because he most recently worked for the law firm that previously represented the president's son-in-law mr. presidenkushner. finally, the president also said mr. mueller had been interviewed to return as the fbi director the day before he was appointed special counsel in may." i'm having -- >> yeah, this really comes down to dues, that's epic. but -- but, i mean, we laugh and it's all silly and what jnot --
>> it's all very serious. >> these things are very a huge impact, look at public opinion polls among republican voters and fox news viewers, the perceptions of robert mueller have cratered. i mean, cratered. and he's done no press for obvious reasons. he's put out very few things that we know of, if any, and for good reason. i mean, he wants to maintain a businesslike impartiality to the investigation. but these things don't happen in a vacuum, and all this pr offensive that the trump administration is launching against him is taking a huge toll. who knows what that means when the results are actually announced. >> what's morimportant to pointt with the tweet, the justice department a week after mueller was appointed special counsel cleared him of conflict of interest concerns as trump's doj said, the guidance at the time didn't mention anything about his -- the potential interview for the fbi director but it did mention he did work at that law firm with other related clients and said that was not an issue.
>> and i think what's a continuum of the president trying to seed this doubt of whether or not the fbi and the investigation is actually above the law. i think the republican party is going to have to come to terms with are they going to be the party of law and order or be the ones that basically decide that the trump administration and trump, himself, is above the law? and that is a conflict that they are literally fighting right now. >> to sam's point, i think we have some polling numbers that the show where people who support trump actually -- where they get their news, who they believe. >> right. >> they say that 991% in a cbs poll of trump supporters trust trump and their own friends and family -- they don't trust the mainstream media. only 11% trust the mainstream media. >> that's remarkable. >> to your point, sam, the battle the president -- >> if friends and family -- where do the friends and family get their news? disproportionately from twitter, disproportionately getting it from facebook and retweet and end up in this media vacuum that is hard to penetrate with truth and facts. >> yeah, i think we're witnessing an incredible amount of tribalism, obviously, but a
self-reinforcing echochamber, you look at one set of ideological outlets, only consume news through that outlet and nothing actually puncturess your world view. so it's competitive and you begin to trust your political figures even more than your relatives. >> you know, i was actually speaking to one candidate for senate who shall remain nameless about their experience on the trail, and was told a story about getting a question at a town hall about when or whether this candidate would be willing to support the president getting rid of abc, cbs, cnn, all these mainstream outlets because that was the tree to which people who were very engaged on the republican trump-supporting side were willing to go. >> remember as the president traveled this week, he was tellitell ing crowds in kansas city and iowa, don't believe what you see, basically see what i tell you. the poll numbers really reinforce that and how much his supporters discount what is
coming from the news media. >> yeah, that was a stunning sound bite. very good point. we have so much to come with our panel. we're going to talk about why one top election forecaster says the democrats are substantial favorites to win back the house. republicans are defending 42 open or vacant seats. a record since at least 1930. but first, i'm joined by senator chris van hollen. "kasie d.c." returns live. insurance that won't replace
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the midterm elections in november, but at times it seems we are no closer to defending our election systems from outside meddling. a bipartisan piece of legislation that aims at slapping russia with sanctions should they interfere in any upcoming elections is gaining widespread support on capitol hill. it's called the deter act. it was introduced by senators chris van hollen and marco rubio and would require the u.s. to impose major sanctions if a foreign government meddled in any federal election. democratic senator chris van hollen of maryland joins me now here in studio. senator, it's great to see you. thanks for coming in. >> great to be with you, kasie. >> on a sunday night. we talked about it before on this show. in the wake of tehelsinki, is seems to be gaining new momentum. >> yes, after the performance of president trump with president putin, people became very concerned that the president's not going to protect the integrity of our elections and we also know from dan coats, the dni, that all the warnings are flashing red. that the russians plan to
interfere in our elections again. midterms are less than 100 days away. this bill is very straightforward. it says that if after the election, the director of national intelligence finds that the russians have interfered in our election, there will be automatic very tough sanctions. >> would require no action from the president or from congress after that. >> that's right. i mean, we're in the process of negotiations right now, but that is the whole idea to deter interference. >> you think mitch mcconnell would be willing to let this come to the floor? >> mitch mcconnell has indicated this is one of the measures he's looking at but you raised a big question, this is kind of the test over the next three weeks about whether or not the republican leadership in the senate and the house is serious about protecting the 2018 elections and serious about protecting our democracy. we're going to have some hearings coming up, but if those hearings are not followed by real action, then they'll be saying that they just don't care about protecting us from the russians. >> what's your sense behind the scenes as you kind of go through these negotiations? i mean, is mcconnell more
interested, still interested in protecting the president? or is there real concern that, you know, the wave is going to be so strong that he's almost looking at a break? >> well, i think that after helsinki, there was a change, then the question is whether there's been enough of a change in psychology for them to actually take action. because this bill is to protect us from 2018 interference, largely because the president has still refused to admit that the russians interfered in 2016 and refused to take any real action about 2018 so we're going to have some hearings in the senate, banking committee, foreign relations committee and let's see where we go from there. senator rubio and i have been gaining co-sponsors. >> looking at a lot of them on the screen right now. >> time is running out. >> okay. so speaking of the midterms from a political perspective, president trump has seemingly threatened to shut down the government in september over immigration, funding for his wall. on the one hand, if, in fact,
democrats do sweep in november, this may be his only chance to get the money for the border wall, but what impact do you think a shutdown would have? >> oh, the shutdown would be very bad news for the country. total disruption. and i think it'd be a very bad idea for republicans -- >> do you think it would hand -- you run the dscc. it elects senate democrats. how do you think it would play in those races? those tough races. >> first of all, it's bad for the country. because it's bad for the country, people around the -- all the states are going to say what the hell is going on in washington? why is the president shutting down the government? and here he's telegraphed that it's his plan to do exactly that. today, we just learned that the families who were separated at the border, that the department of homeland security was calling them deleted families. they lost track of the kids who had been separating from their parents. now the president is is talking about essentially shutting down the government. until he gets his way. i should emphasize, democrats
have strongly supported border security. what we don't want is to waste billions of dollars of taxpayer dollars building a wall that won't work. >> it is possible, though, based on how the plans are structured around the appropriations process that you could be looking at the shutdown or two departments. perhaps the department of homeland security. are the calculations different as you lack at it politically? >> we don't know how the appropriations bills are going to shape up, you're exactly right. 13 differentlater, we'll see. nobody wants to be shutting down these government agencies. if the president is going to shut it down, then he's going to have to take responsibility for that. i think it'd be a big mistake for the country and i think it would be a big mistake politically for republican rep. it would show the chaos of this presidency. >> let's talk a little bit about some of the back and forth in your own --
crowley, she has campaigned on abolishing i.c.e. and several other of your colleagues, sort of not so secretly running for president in 2020, at least thinking about it, areishing i.. what the white house seized on, other republicans argue is essentially a gift to them. what would you say to members of your party who are running on that? is it helpful to you as you try to get income bikucumbent democ re-elected? >> democrats have been very clear we're very border security. the issue with i.c.e. -- >> i think many americans look at abolish i.c.e. and say nooths not very clear. >> the issue with respect to the department of homeland security is how they're managed by this administration and we don't need to be separating moms and dads from their kids in order to have strong border security. in my own view, the problem with i.c.e. is the way the president
and his team have managed i.c.e. and so i don't think we should be getting into a big fight with respect to the president on i.c.e., per se, but the president is the one who's picking the fight right now with respect to shutting down the government. if he doesn't get money for his wall. i haven't seen him tweet out for a very long time that mexico's going to be paying for this wall. i mean, you remember that was what he said. >> that seems to have been left out. that's a fair point. as we wrap up here, health care. that's an issue that poll after poll shows it at the top of mind for american voters. it's the one-year anniversary of your -- the attempts to repeal the affordable care act and that not getting through the senate. do you think that your voters are hearing your message right now on health care through all of the noise that is the trump presidency? >> well, i think voters have this on top of their minds right now. so when our senators go back to their states, they're not hearing a lot of what's happening in washington, all the insider stuff. they're hearing about rising
costs of prescription drugs, hearing about rising gas prices and democrats have been clear, we have plan to reduce the cost of prescription drugs. you know, just tweeting out against pharmaceutical companies is not a long-term solution. we have a long-term solution. we want to invest in modernizing our information. those are the kinds of things that people around the country are focused on. the president tries to distract people. a lot. sometimes he's successful in terms of messaging, but what he cannot change is what people are thinking about. that's what our candidates are talking about on the campaign trail. >> senator chris van hollen, thanks for your time. >> thank you. >> thank you also, you participated in a fund-raiser for our colleagues at the annapolis capital gazette. >> yes, we lost five incredible in that terrible shooting. >> of course, in your home state. thank you very much for that. when we come back, our panel returns. the efforts to impeach rod rosenstein and an increasingly bloody race to replace house speaker paul ryan.
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rosenstein. the man overseeing robert mueller's russia investigation. both announcements fly directly in the face of the current speaker. >> do i support impeachment of rod rosenstein? no, doi n no, i do not. i do not for a number of reasons. first, it takes -- i don't think we should be cavalier with this process or with this term. i don't think that this rises to the level of high crimes and misdemeanors. from really high standard. >> one of your colleagues that brought those articles of impeachment, jim jordan, announced shortly, we understand, he's running for speaker of the house. has he shared z those plans with you? >> i'm not going to be here. i support -- i'm not going to be here. he has not talked to me about that. >> did you see that little sigh of relief on paul ryan's face when he noted he wasn't -- >> thank god i'm no longer -- this is not going to be my problem. >> no longer his issue. yes. this has really been paul ryan's
problem the entire time, there's been this group of freedom caution memb caucus members. we should point out, there are enough enough votes for jim jordan to become speaker of the house. >> there are enough votes s he n canne carry to prevent mccarthy. a lot on capitol hill when jim jordan made his announcement said he's getting the cart ahead of the horse, have to retain our majority, that's a tall enough order right now, but it's going to be interesting to see how this race tdevelops because we see normally house internal leadership races are largely internal fights, but the three men who are talked about as paul ryan's successor all are very close to the president in varying ways and when jim jordan announced his candidacy for speaker, he talked a lot about that. that the president needs a stronger ally in the house and can be that ally. so to the extent that the speakership race, to the extent there is one for now, becomes
more of a how close can you be to donald trump will be really interesting to watch. >> the one thing here, though, too, yes, you're right, there are internal fights, they're also often the bloodiest fights and if, in fact, jordan has said he's only going to do this if they retain control of the house. right? he doesn't want to be leader. doesn't want to be a republican leader. but, sam, if they were to keep control and lose -- they're still going to lose some seats. that's going to give more power to the freedom caucus. not less. >> yeah. their faction will remain relatively same in size, i think, but the people who are going to lose seats will be the, what's left of the moderate faction of the republican house members and that means that by definition, their clout will grow. the freedom caucus. i don't think we can talk about this story, though, without noting that jim jordan is in a heap of ethical problems. >> absolutely. >> this is undermining everything. a cloud over his future in politics. and i guess for the uninformed viewer, what's happening is back
when he was an assistant coach on the ohio state university wrestling team, he was alleged to have heard about tales of i want impropriety, sexual molestation from the head coach -- >> from the doctor. >> from the doctor. sorry. and allegedly did nothing. we can't fully digest this move to be speaker without understanding that. he obviously had designs in this -- >> on the other hand -- >> the timing of spectacular. >> it's more of a bait and switch. c he, kevin mccarthy says basically i am the back channel between the president and congress. i think paul ryan all of a sudden basically, i think to your point, was basically being kind of flippant. it's more of -- almost an ins e insider game of we get you're basically trying to do the bait and switch, the smoke and mirrors, look at me over here because i have serious problems as home. >> kevin mccarthy didn't have the votes last time to become speaker. does he have them this time? >> he has definitely worked to
try to gain this time which is a lot of what the close relationship with trump -- that closest relationship with trump should, in theory, help them with and has worked since the last three years since his failed attempt to become -- to succeed john boehner. he's worked to create these relationships with the freedom caucus so they'll be less of a nuisance to him as leader. it's clear that, i mean, jordan's candidacy just shows you right there that mccarthy didn't do enough -- >> was it a winnable fight, though? i mean, was there any world in which -- >> let's be honest, there's nothing mccarthy could do. the whole point of -- it seems like the whole point of being for the freedom caucus is to be opposed to what other republicans are doing. it's never good enough. that's why they're in existence. they want to move the party. once they're satisfied, what's the reason of being? >> the freedom caucus in itself, the fact that kevin mccarthy is in california, he has to be even in his district that is mostly more of the right wing of california, it's still california. he can never meet the obligations of what the freedom
caucus actually would request of him. >> some of his farmers, interestingly, are dealing with serious consequences in the tariffs. good news, congressman john lewis is resting comfortably tonight after a brief emergency stay at a hospital. the civil rights icon fell ill on a plane while flying home on saturday. after routine observation, he was released by doctors who gave him a clean bill of health. our best wishes with congressman lewis. when we come back, with 100 days until the midterms, why forecasters see a potential historic flip of the house. ahead. greatness of an suv? is it to carry cargo... or to carry on a legacy? its show of strength... or its sign of intelligence? in crossing harsh terrain... or breaking new ground? this is the time to get an exceptional offer on the mercedes of your midsummer dreams at the mercedes-benz summer event, going on now. receive up to a $1,250 summer event bonus on select suvs.
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so at this moment, it seems that the president is very focused on the midterms. watch closely as he goes to florida this week in support of congressman ron desantis running for governor, seen as the anti-establishment candidate, while agriculture candidate adam putnam spent years building a broad republican coalition. keep in mind the georgia governor's race. the president stunned many by tweeting his support for brian kemp. kemp is the secretary of state who famously held a shotgun and bragged about the truck he'd use to round up undocumented immigrants in his campaign ads. the shotgun, by the way, we should note was intended to be used on somebody that wanted to date his daughter which is super fun. kemp was long expected to lose to conservative lieutenant governor casey cagle. amid a trove of leaked audio and the president's endorsement,
kemp won big. a tweet, this internal poll, cagle poll before and after the president's endorsement. look what happens to kemp's support in the closing days of the election. those, of course, are primaries. the woe"washington post" report the house of representatives flipped parties three times in the past 60 years. conventional wisdom is democrats are about to make it four. so, there's growing evidence in the past week or so, or growing indicators, that the blue wave is a real thing. and that there are potentially districts, pete sessions in texas is a good example of somebody who, you know, we're used to seeing around and who suddenly is facing a race for the first time. >> yeah, and it's fascinating, too, what the president said earlier this week about his own plans for the midterms. he told -- he told sean hannity that he wants john kelly and some of his other aides to draft a list of 25 of the most competitive races. i will go out and do whatever i can to flip them and get them across the finish line.
well, the two dozen races, especially in the house, are places where they are not going to want trump to campaign for him. certainly he's going have an impact in the senate where most of the races are being fought on very conservative, very red territory. try to find a swing district in the house where the president will be welcome with open arms. i mean, if pete sessions of all people, the house rules committee chairman, the most stalwart house republican you can think of if, if he's distancing himself from trump a little bit -- >> astute politician as well. >> exactly. >> sessions -- >> he did run the house campaign at one point. >> right. >> there is a case to be made, well, i don't know if i'd make it, but i talked to steve bannon about it and his point was that for better or worse, all of these republicans are trump. this a referendum on who he is. therefore, if you have to make a bet, bet big on trump. so for these members who are in tight races, perhaps it makes sense to bring out your base, the people who don't normally go to vote like they did in 2016
and see if you can run them back again. i don't think there's much evidence necessarily to support it, but there is a theory. >> there's a catch 22 if you're a republican candidate. you need your base to show up. >> the other thing i think -- we can talk and pontificate about this. in the end, what will matter is what he tweeted this morning which is he wants a shutdown in september, he's at least gaming for a shutdown in september if he doesn't get a massive amount of immigration concessions from democrats. that is going to be -- i've talked to numerous republicans who clearly don't want that to happen. especially when the president's inviting it because at that point, he tames blame for it. >> it would keep them all off the trail. >> this is the thing. >> or me off the trail. >> it's because he actually recognizes how big immigration is playing to his base. conor lamb literally won a highly gerrymandered district that basically had gone to trump by 20 points because the republicans were playing to the tune of tax cuts. that didn't play well.
after conor lamb won, they ran 15,000 anti-immigrant ads that riled up the base and engente d er -- the reason he's talking about the wall, the reason he's talking about shutting down the government is he knows that is what actually brings out the base when a lot of other republicans want to sit it out because they don't -- >> we're seeing that happen in ohio, too, there's a special election going on, a group just switched over to that message, from tax cuts. good point. meanwhile, interesting news from the koch brothers who said they're planning to spend as much as $400 million this election cycle. at the koch network summit in colorado called the $1.3 trillion bill passed in march, quote, the most fiscally irresponsible budget in the history of our country. charles koch asked if he's okay with the democratically controlled house said, "i don't care what initials are in front of or after somebody's name." it is pretty remarkable, honestly, how donald trump just
flies in the face of everything the kochs have said for years they're in favor of. >> not just donald trump. honestly, paul ryan signed that spending bill. >> he also pushed the tax cuts through. >> yeah. those are both, like, incredibly deficit-adding pieces of legislation. i don't believe the koch brothers will start spending on democrats. i know they've come out and did a little bit of spending for heidi heitkamp, dabble in criminal justice reform that brings democrats into the fold. i'll wait and see before i start looking. i can't believe they're going to spend a significant amount of democrats. >> what the koch brothers are doing, they play long game so when they go into criminal justice reform, they realize they can siphon off african-americans. they're now going deep into immigration and building into community-based modeling similar to what the evangelical movement has done in the latino community. he recognizes they don't need all these viewers, they need to
siphon off. it's basically the karl rove playbook he did for bush. so in the interim, they're going to support some democrats because they don't like what's in the white house. they say that that's not part of the republican spectrum. in the long term, they're actually trying to make inroads into these communities. >> very interesting. all right. just changing gears every so slightly, "the new york times" is out with a new piece about the renewed status of jared kushner and ivanka trump inside the west wing. "it did not help that the president had gone from telling aides to, quote, talk to jared as he did during the came pain to telling them, quote, jared hasn't been good for me. various points mr. trump told john f. kelly he wished jared and ivanka could return to new york, and the president joked he could have had tom brady as a son-in-law but instead he got jared kushner. >> like he got the flu or something. right? he got the jared. >> in seriousness, it does seem as though jared and ivanka are here to stay.
>> it makes me love my father-in-law so much. he doesn't gripe about me to "the new york times" and compare me to tom brady. i appreciate it. thank you very much. >> you're aware of -- >> could he have had tom brady as a son-in-law, you think he would have rather had tom brady? >> no, definitely not. okay. on a serious note, i'm not holding my breath for the kochs to fund democrats and not holding my breath for jared and ivanka to have the moderating influence on trump. we heard this a million times before. i can't be a sucker and fall for it again because they've had a year and a half, almost, more than a year and a half now. >> i don't think that was part of the -- >> fair enough. i'm sorry. i'm all riled up by that quote about tom brady. >> very sorry. on a more serious note, when we continue, you've all heard about the allegations against les moonves at cbs. what you probably didn't know is congress is also on the verge of doing nothing about overhauling sexual harassment rules. that's next on "kasie d.c." we got married after college.
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retired from congress because of sexual harassment allegations. no one saw that coming. they tweeted this photo of him heading into the capitol. some republicans were displeased, quote, dropping off his $84,000 check, congressman walker wondered? that is a reference to the settlement that the taxpayers covered in which he said he won't repay. the republican ralph norman said his bill would prevent them from accessing the capitol and halls of congress the public can want. i expect this former congressman was not taking a tour of the capitol, #draintheswamp. they have yet to reach a deal on me too legislation, and there's no guarantee that it will happen before the midterms, and you've done reporting on this, but both chambers have passed a version of this legislation, but can't
agree on some of the differences, particularly around personal liabilities, so are we really going to see congress end with no action? >> it is striking to see how much congress had moved on its me too moment, seeing the lawmakers get ousted for their driver, and yet have struggled to do something that seems just so simple to reform the sexual harassment policies on capitol hill, and the problem that you're seeing right now is that the house has stricter provisions that the senate has a problem with, and they struggled to reconcile the two bills. now, we expected it perhaps to get into the month past spending bill. if you want to tuck it into a larger bill, that could happen in september, but there's no guarantee of that, and we don't see a lot of movement, at least publicly. there's been reports that there are -- there is some progress privately, but i'm wondering if now is the time for example the 23 female senators in the senate to speak up. they put voices together on the issue once before to move the bill along, and i wonder if it's
time for them to do that again. >> we'll keep our eyes on this for sure. when we return, what to watch for in the week ahead. i have p, so i just bundled everything with my home insurance. saved me a ton of money. -love you, gary! -you don't have to buzz in. it's not a question, gary. on march 1, 1810 -- [ ding ] -frédéric chopin. -collapsing in 226 -- [ ding ] -the colossus of rhodes. -[ sighs ] louise dustmann -- [ ding ] -brahms' "lullaby," or "wiegenlied." -when will it end? [ ding ] -not today, ron. -when will it end? [ ding ] when heartburn hits... fight back fast with tums smoothies. it neutralizes stomach acid at the source. tum tum tum tum tums... smoothies... ...and introducing new tums sugar-free.
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nothing's riding on this except the first amendment of the constitution, freedom of the press, and maybe the future of the country. >> not that any of that matters. >> coming up next, we have a special presentation, the first for msnbc, the feature length movie, all the president's men, the academy awar winning film with robert redford and dustin hoffman playing bob woodward. the movie follows them chasing the watergate scandal from break-in to coverup to nixon's resignation. the first president to resign his office. in a time where we regularly report on leaks, secret recordings, special counsels, and presidential disputes with the media, we thought we'd take you back to the dramaization in the search for the truth, but, of course, before we go, let's talk about what you're watching for in the week ahead. what are you watching? >> continued fight on capitol hill over the president's nominee. >> i almost forgot about that. >> yeah. it exists.
it's still happening. why it's becoming interesting this week is he's actually talking about a democrat this week. the first democrat he's sat down with. most boycott the meetings, but they made it clear he's open to confirming cavanaugh so we'll see how it goes. >> i'll watch for the escalation of the war between donald trump and the press, and i think that ties in with "all the president's men," and what e we saw over the past week, a lot of things, banning a cnn reporter from covering it up, and the twea tweets this morning, highly aggressive, the press being the enemy of the people, and the head of the "new york times" meeting that did not go so hot, and we'll see going forward is further escalation, ducking availab availabilities, and very, very few press interviews. it's getting worse, and i didn't
think it could get worse. >> this occurred -- >> i was not going to say that. it has lined up, it's lined up, and it's hard that a guy from the media, fox news, is perfectly comfortable with these types of things. >> the president distinguishing them from the rest of us, though. >> what are you watching? >> when the president has a plan to reunify the 435 children deemed unqualified. the idea of the president tweets immigration today plays well with the base. the gop yesterday tweeted out saying the news is being unfair to the immigration policies, and right now, we have roughly two non-profits, aclu and kind on the ground in the countries to find the parents that have not been unified with their children because they either signed off a waiver or because the government lied and said, don't worry, when you get on the plane, the child will be with you. >> an important story we are watching. the hearing coming up, senate committee elections, and it could be illuminating, and i