tv MSNBC Live With David Gura MSNBC August 26, 2018 11:00am-12:00pm PDT
of dollars a year. and ask how you get xfinity mobile included with your internet. plus, get $300 back when you buy a new smartphone. xfinity mobile. it's simple. easy. awesome. click, call or visit a store today. >> it's the top of the hour. thanks for joining me. much more to come on the life and legacy of senator john mccain. david, take it away. >> thank you. i'm david gura at msnbc headquarters in new york. today the nation remembers the maverick. senator john mccain. >> for 60 years now i have had the great honor of being involved in the arena, and i have loved every minute of it. >> we look back at his life from his service in vietnam to decades in national politics. he passed away last night after battling brain cancer. and in washington robert mueller's investigation continues. what are the special counsel's remaining options, and is the doubt that president trump
continues to cast on that investigation starting to affect americans? >> on the campaign trail some candidates are calling for impeachment. one of them, maxine waters, will join me live from california. >> we begin by remembering senator john mccain, who passed away last night. here is a look a makeshift memorial in his arizona office honoring his career of public service. the senator will lie in state in the capitol rotunda in the arizona capitol. the spoke with tom broke aw las fall. >> he served his country. that's what i'd like to see. he served his country. hopefully, with the word honorably on it. that's all. >> my colleague kelly o'donnell joins us from phoenix, arizona. give us a sense of what's happening in his home state today. >> reporter: well, good afternoon, david. arizona is preparing for the
ceremonyial parts of saying good-bye to senator john mccain after more than three decades of his service to the people here in the house and then six terms in the united states senate. at this point i'm standing outside the state capitol in phoenix. there are preparations that are happening here to bring the sort of sense of what is coming over the next days. there are flagpoles all around this block, all of them with fla flags lowered out of suspect for senator mccain. the samly and a police escort brought the senator's remains from his home in sedona through these streets and highways. a two-hour drive from sedona to phoenix. he is at a resting place at the funeral home where there is an honor guard and there are flags and small tributes, the kind of spontaneous sort of show of support from the public. and remember how stifling hot it is in arizona. more than 100 degrees.
so it's not the kind of situation where people will be out on the streets, and yet they have come and they have placed flowers and signs and mementos outside his office. there is a sense of wanting to pay tribute. the biggest easiest way for constituents to be able to do that will, of course, be when he is lying in state at the state capitol here and then, of course, the tributes and the farewell goes on to washington, d.c. and then ultimately the naval academy where he was a cadet decades ago. some of the remembrances, of course, this is a personal family loss for his widow cindy. the senator's seven children and five grandchildren. cindy mccain not long after his passing expressed her sorrow. she said my heart is broken. i am so lucky to have lived the adventure of loving this incredible man for 38 years. she says he passed away the way he lived, on his own terms, surrounded by the people he loved, in the place he loved
best. his rival in the 2008 political contest, president obama, was among the former presidents and dignitaries who have expressed respect for his life. in part. barack obama and michelle obama saying all of us can aspire to the courage to put the greater good above our own. and at john's best he showed us what that means, and for that we are all in his debt. in that clip you played from tom brokaw's interview with john mccain, that notion of his memory, he wanted to be thought of as someone who has served. when i spoke to him, one of the many interviews, i also said, what do you want for your legacy? and he said exactly that. and then expanded a bit to say that he hoped he was someone who had helped in the national security of our nation and to help young men and women who also wore the uniform. so you have respect coming from this broad range politically as well as the more personal side from family and loved ones and
the people of his home state here in arizona. david. >> kelly, i want to ask you a personal question, if you'll allow. you have covered him many years in washington, d.c. you are there in arizona now. what was he like to cover? what will you remember from those years that you spent covering his political career on capitol hill? >> reporter: the things you could always count on covering senator mccain, and i covered a number of his campaigns and the day-to-day of capitol hill, and his voice on national security issues across the years, what you could always count on is mccain in the fight, wanting to be a part of the important debates, filled with ideas and positions, firm in those. sometimes testy exchanges or at least exchanges that were punctuated with his energy and passion, and i'd say the other thing that was so consistent is he enjoyed teasing reporters, getting to know them over the years. i can just give you so many instances where he would poke fun at me, have a little fun at
my expense, and wouldn't mind if you did it back to him as well. all of that really coming down to a person who enjoyed the engagement of politics and that includes the component of the press, and someone who he said so often, he enjoyed what he did and so he liked to make people laugh along the way. as much as the national security piece and the seriousness and, obviously, the many different parts of his national sort of biography, on a one-on-one level, the things that really stand out to me is the smile, even the smirk, and the willingness to play a little joke and have a little fun. >> a man in the fight, in the arena, borrowing a phrase from teddy vo teddy roosevelt. andy card joins me now. he was chief of staff to president george w. bush. the president of the american for action forum, director of domestic and economic policy on senator john mccain's 2008
campaign for president. andy card, let me start with you. we hear about the way john mccain was able to reach across the aisle. he was something that you -- somebody that you interacted with in 2000 when the primary campaign was between john mccain and george w. bush. i am reminded in may of 2000. they got together over a bruising primary campaign. they spoke for 90 minutes and delivered a press conference on the heels of that. i want you to take us back to that. what emerged from that conversation, the way that john mccain was able to leave that primary behind and endorse the candidate you were working for and went on to work for in the white house as well? >> first of all, john mccain was someone who celebrated democracy. he was an advocate for democracy not just in the united states, but around the world. but he really did motivate people to get involved in the political process. he got involved, but he also accepted the results of the elections. so he didn't carry bitterness
after an election defeat. he actually celebrated democracy and the chance to move forward. his words were pretty carefully chosen, i think, after he had lost in south carolina. remember he won in new hampshire. i am take to you from new hampshire. he was loved in new hampshire. but he lost in south carolina where george w. bush had his firewall. it wasn't a surprise to anybody that it was going to come down to a race kind of like that, and it did. but john mccain celebrated the successes of democracy. that's why he was so good even in defeat. he did not take defeat as the end. he took defeat as an opportunity to do something else. and he ended up building a good partnership with george w. bush, particularly with regard to the tough challenges we had with the battles in iraq. you remember senator mccain was not -- it wasn't like he was a lap dog for george w. bush. president bush. he was a challenge. i remember being challenged by john mccain many times on policy
and other things, and doug certainly witnessed it a lot. he also would step up and help make things happen for the better. and he was a big advocate of the surge, which president george w. bush wanted to put in place, which was controversial at the time and proved to be exactly the right thing and senator mccain was a huge advocate for that. but beyond that, john mccain really did invite people to be a part of the democratic process and he did work across the line. i was struck with the unbelievably remarkable relationship that he had with joe lieberman. it was fun to watch because here they were. they didn't agree philosophically on a lot of things, but they certainly agreed to the value of having a democracy where everybody had a voice. they ended up becoming great things and partners in a lot of good things that happened. he set an example for a lot of people in the country. i wish we could get back to that. pay attention to what john mccain did as a democratic
participant who carried the republican label. >> doug, you were the director of the congressional budget office in the early 2000s. i know you interacted with senator john mccain there and then you took on this advisory role during the 2008 campaign. i think of sort of touch points during the course of a campaign, major speeches that deal with foreign policy or economic policy. that was april 15, 2008. carnegie mellon university. i imagine you talked about his ideas for the country, particularly as they came to domestic policy and economic policy. what were those conversations like? what drew you to him as a senator and as a candidate for the presidency? >> well, first and foremost, i want to take this opportunity to send my condolences to the family. the clip you showed of him leaving a cabin in oak creek is a touching moment, at least for me. and it was a privilege to work for him. i know a lot of people felt that way. in part because when you talked to him, he didn't talk about what he wanted to accomplishm. t
that was never the goal. the question was, what does the country need? he would implore me to think big, go bold, ignore the politics. he was just a voracious student of the policy and why would you do it this way, and in particular how can i talk to people about it. i want to just echo what andy card said about him loving democracy and loving the process. there was nothing he loved more than the rough and tumble of politics. he loved the fight. he would go to town halls and engage with citizens across the country because he loved to hear what they had to say, and he loved it when they challenged him. and he wanted me to give him ideas that he could use in that arena, and he loved it. it was fantastic to watch. >> andy, let's talk a little bit about compromise. you alluded to some of the backard forth, challenges that you and president bush had on the campaign trail and as a senator as well. he was interested in campaign
finance, immigration as well. what was that like? we look back as a principled individual. what was compromise like in the context of senator john mccain's career? >> first of all, he did have an edge to him. he wasn't afraid to show you an elbow every wungs once in a whi put you in your place. he also had a conscience. there were many times he would have more of an edge than he should of and he would come back and say, i think i was a little too harsh on you. let's see what we can talk about. he would look for common ground. yes, he would state his opinions kind of first, and tell us what his view of perfection was, but then he would look to see where is the common ground, how can we come closer to my point of view respecting your point you voof. so he ended up being a pretty good negotiator, and he was constructive. yes, he would throw you out of his office and then invite you right back in to sit at the
table. probably the most challenging experience i had with him was president george w. bush wanted john mccain to speak at the convention in philadelphia in 2000. he was reluctant to speak. i went to meet with him in his office, and he was a little testy. i had read every speech that he had delivered during that campaign. i told him that i thought that he should just say what he said on the campaign trail. and we were not looking to write his speech, a george bush convention speech. we were looking for him to speak from his heart about what he believed america should be and how he hoped president bush could do that. a.g.ly, he sat down, we talked about his speeches. he asked which were my favorite ones. i gave him one or two. i said something like that would be perfect. he then worked with his chief of staff, a very able writer, someone who i have great respect
for, and they crafted a speech that was john mccain's speech to be used at the republican national convention in philadelphia about george w. bush, and it was a remarkable speech. very well received. well appreciated by president george w. bush when he became president. and it kind of showed a lot of people involved in the partisanship of an intraparty squabble, inside the republican party, that you could actually work with and respect the people who have different views but are carrying the same label. john mccain was a proud republican, but he made room for lots of other product republicans to have views a little different than his. >> doug, inside the republican party, looking back between 2008 to today after he left washington a few months ago, he was very active, sending statements about what he thought was wrong with the republican party, wrong with the administration as well. let's talk about republicanism here. what d he make of the turn in
the party that started in 2008? >> well, i think he was very concerned about america's place in the world always, and a republican party that would look inward and forget that in the words of ronald reagan this was a shiny city on a hill and that republicans would not be like john mccain. the great congressional statesman who would go to belarus, go to burma, go to syria, and on each stop fight for the freedom of those people for their dignity, for their human rights. that was a great fear. he wanted to continue that great tradition. that was the cause greater than himself. certainly greater than this nation. and to not reach for that cause, i think troubled him greatly. >> andy, a quotation from our former boss, president george w. bush, one of many who weighed in. he said john mccain was a man of deep conviction and a patriot of the highest order. george w. bush was somebody who didn't have a whole lot of washington experience. he came from going the governor of texas. he knew it through his father.
there was a role that senator mccain played in washington as a gray beard, somebody who knew the senate well, who spent three decades of his career in washington, d.c. speak to that, if you would, about others, republican and democrats, looked up to him and his knowledge of the institution and of the city itself. >> well, john mccain wasn't always liked by everybody, but he was respected by everybody. and he did build some wonderful friendships and then he ruined them, and then he would re-make friends gyagain. i'm sure doug witnessed that many times. president bush, you know, to participate in the game but don't make it a zero sum game. too many of the decisions in washington, d.c. right now it's either all or nothing. and that wasn't how john mccain saw it. he actually would push people to come to the table and he would challenge them, but he also had absolutely no problem standing
up to be counted, and he would stand up to be counted, especially when he knew his vote would count the most. and so i wasn't surprised to see the thumbs up vote that he cast on obamacare repeal when he was against it. that was john mccain. it was john mccain. but before that he usually would be working hard to get people to come to the table, recognize common ground, and truly be bipartisan. he wasn't an angel, and he wasn't a magician, but he was a real good senator. he really worked -- he respected the process. but something else that doug reminded me of. john mccain was a champion for democracy around the world. his role at the international republican institute where they helped to spread democracy around the globe was dramatic. he left such an important legacy of the importance of democracy as a governing opportunity where people have their voices heard.
and he was a champion of that in the united states, but more significantly he made sure that the shining city on the hill, the united states of america, was a beacon of democracy to the rest of the world. he sacrificed a lot to spread that democracy, and he did it in a very challenging way in some very tough places around the world when he said, you're a selfish government, you should be a government of the people. he helped bring democracy, planted the seeds of democracy in many places around the world, and those seeds are starting to take hold and they are growing legacies for john mccain that are really legacies of america. >> andy, thank you very much. that's andy card and dug holt seguin. >> this is what president trump said about the passing of john mccain. my deepest sympathies and respect go out to the family of senator john mccain. our hearts and prayers are with you. the president is spending the weekend golfing as the russia investigation claims some of his
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great job. i'll tell you what. if i ever got impeached, i think the market would crash. i think everybody would be very poor because without this thinking, you would see -- you would see numbers that you wouldn't believe in reverse. >> prognostications with president trump, sounding warnings about the consequences of impeachment and continuing to call into question the legitimacy of robert mueller's investigation. according to a new poll from nbc news and the "wall street journal," 56% of voters do not believe the president when it comes to robert mueller's investigation. 21% think he is accurate. a pete in "the new york times," looking back on robert mueller's long career for hints of what might happen next.
mr. mueller face as series of crucial decisions in the coming months. will he subpoena the president? recommended charges? will he write a public report? each could help sway the midterm elections and shape the future of the presidency itself. i want to dig into some of these questions which are on the mind of every reporter in washington. jeff mason covers the white house for reuters and katy fang is an msnbc legal analyst. what's your perspective about what changed this week? being described as guilty tuesday. one of the darkest weeks of the president's tenure so far. what changed vis-a-vis robert mueller's investigation this week? >> regarding what was referred by team mueller to sdny new york, a mueller adjacent component, not necessarily part of the mueller probe itself, but the president with the michael cohen plea became an unindicted cospe co-conspirator in a crime, according to michael cohen's
guilty plea. that is a big deal whether or not the president of the united states or his team want to acknowledge the gravity of that or not. this week, the president was going around phoning friends and telling people within his inner circle, well, you know, this doesn't really affect me or my presidency, so i'm not thinking about it even that much. that is obviously belied quite a bit by the repeatedty of the tweets he is sending out. but he and his inner circle are trying to downplay the gravity of this. the reality is the exact opposite. >> jeff mason, we learn what we can about the way that this investigation is unfolding. often the indications are from the president's counsel. rudy giuliani talks about the back and forth he and his colleagues have with the special counsel's office. we are getting statements, some which seems speculative about how long this might take. this is a tweet from rudy giuliani. just a few days before the 60
day run up to the 2018 elections, if mueller wants to show he is not partisan then issue a report on collusion and obstruction, they will show president trump did not wrong. what do you make of that statement there from rudy giuliani on twitter, jeff, and what is your sense here of the timing in light of what happened this this week? >> giuliani has been pushing for the mueller investigation to come to a close quickly for some time, and i think all evidence to the contrary based on just the developments we have seen in this last week, it seems -- and i'm no legal expert, but it's hard to imagine that probe is about to wrap up given the new developments and the new immunity agreements that have been announced. that said, it's certainly something that giuliani wants and it's something that president trump wants and i think we can expect to continue hearing that from the trump side and from his attorneys. >> katy fang, we'll turn to the legal expert. i will ask for your perspective on that. you look at what michael cohen pled to in a federal court here in new york where he is allowed to travel. one of those destinations is
washington, d.c. where i gather he has no attachments other than perhaps one to the special counsel. give us your perspective on all of this, katy. >> so remember the michael cohen southern district of new york case is a referral from the mueller investigation, and that's really important to remember because mueller is obviously doing his own track. the piece was key in terms of giving insielkt into how he thinks. what is crucial about the fact that michael cohen did his guilty plea on tuesday it raises the specter of the campaign finance violations involving donald trump, implicating him rectally, which -- implicating him directly, speconspiracy wit russia. and then again, david, those are related, right? if you committed campaign finance violations, you being donald trump, in conjunction with michael cohen to influence the outcome, why wouldn't mueller be interested in hearing what you have to say when you are michael cohen and then allen
weisselberger being given immunity by the feds. he has the money man of the trump organization could actually point the feds not only in mueller's team, but in other federal prosecutors' offices towards other maybe money violations of federal and state laws and that's going to be a big problem for donald trump. >> i want to get your perspective on how the president has reacted to this or hasn't reacted to this from your perspective. as white house reporters, swin, all of this happens on that remarkable tuesday. president goes to ohio. he doesn't mention either of these things. we see this attack on jeff sessions. something we have seen before. of course this time around we saw attorney jeff sessions push back via a statement that was couriered by his spokesperson. i want to play a tape from this morning. adam schiff sat down on state of the union to talk about this. let's listen to what he had to say. >> look what happened after the president started attacking his own attorney general for not getting rid of bob mueller and
persecuting political rivals. two prominent gop senators said if he wants to get rid of the a.g., we will help him get rid of a new one, let's wait until after the midterms. that's nothing you would ever hear john mccain say. >> how do you react to that? the pressure mounting on jeff sessions, those three tweets, the interview on fox news, the tweets we saw yesterday as well. >> well, it's further example of how much the republican party has been completely subsumed into trumpism and the whims and the grievances of the current sitting president of the united states. i mean, when it comes to president's flirtations with firing robert mueller, ordering the sacking of jeff sessions, rod rosenstein, the list goes on. the republican party and its figure heads on capitol hill have been going for the past year or so to varying degrees of, oh, we'll make sure he won't do that, we will be a check on
him. as you see more and more, there are people on capitol hill, including senator lindsey graham, who seem willing to evolve on this question. so the republican party on these very important issues regarding the trump russia investigation does not project that much confidence in the american people in terms of being even a ghost of a check on him on these things. >> jeff, help me understand the dynamic between these gentlemen as you see it. you followed them for some time here. again we've seen statements of anger play out on twitter, on television, in formal statements as well. there was a meeting on thursday in the white house where they seemed to get along cordially. what should we make of that? >> it's impossible to know other than to say it's clear that that is a very tense relationship and one that is frustrating to president trump. clearly, at the top of his mind based on how he is reacting on twitter as is, i might add, the issue of impeachment. the pafact that he discussed th in the fox interview gives a
window into the amount or the focus on that in his mind and at the white house. and the threat of that possibility depending on what happened to the midterm elections in november. >> all right. thank you very much. i appreciate your time. coming up, we are going to continue to remember senator john mccain. congressman maxine waters who called him a true marijuana patriot and hero will join me next. iot and hero will join me next my mom's pain from
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senator john mccain coming from colleagues on both sides of the island. the democratic congresswoman from california's 43rd district tweeting, a true american patriot and hero has passed. he was an example of a public policymaker who fought for what he believed in and had the character and dignity to stand up for what was right even if he had to oppose some of his colleagues to do so. maxine waters joins me from california. great to speak with you once again. first, just to reflect on your relationship with the late senator, you posted a twitter photo a while ago. you were taking pastors around capitol hill and you met up with senator john mccain and you tweeted afterwards, though we may at times disagree on policy, i share in senator mccain's pride for our country and constitution. he is a hero. what is the capitol missing today, congresswoman? >> well, we're missing a great leadership. we're missing being able to witness a man of courage and
conviction. you know, you don't have to always agree with the opposite side of the aisle or others who think differently, but you must admire it when people are willing to stand up for what they believe in no matter, even having to suffer the consequences of their beliefs. and so i admired that about him. and he was friendly. you referred to the picture that i have on my twitter page about the meeting with the pastors that i brought to the congress. he stood and he talked with them and something important was going on at the time on the senate side where they were looking at confirmation to, i think, that sessions was up for confirmation that day. he explained to them the confirmation's process and what was going on, and they absolutely enjoyed him. it was the first time they had ever encountered him. some of them had different thoughts about him, but they changed their mind that day
because they saw a genuinely friendly man, a man who had a sense of humor and could stand with strangers and engage them and share opinions with them. and i think that's what i liked about him. i liked his courage. i liked his convictions. i liked that sense of humor that he had. >> you have had a couple of days to consider what happened on tuesday of this week, just to pivot to another subject here. that being what happened in the federal courtroom outside of washington, d.c. in alexandria, what happened as well in new york, as michael cohen pled guilty to campaign violations among other things. you said this is not a witch hunt or fake news. these are real charges of criminal behavior. these are based on real facts, real evidence, and real testimony. in the final nams, aanalysis, a this will lead to real articles of impeachment. what happened on tuesday, how that changes the narrative surrounding this president?
>> well, i think that it has been difficult for many americans to keep up with everything that's been going on in this investigation. there is so many parts to it. so many new names that are introduced almost on a daily basis. but i think what happened, we have to focus people on some individuals that they had been hearing about and the charges that were being initiated and absolutely, when this president was named as a co-conspirator, an unindicted co-conspirator in the hush money information that had been circulating for so long, i think that changed an awful lot. i think that when cohen came forward and he was able to certainly appear to be very truthful about his role and the role of this president, i think that people began to understand,
it's something real about all of this. there is some truth being told here. and you have someone who is willing to come forward and admit guilt and also name the president of the united states of america. and then we heard about all of this immunity that's being given. and this immunity, as everybody has identified, is not done lightly. this immunity is only given when there is clear evidence that the individuals have something to talk about. something to share that will be helpful in getting to the bottom of the guilty charges. >> i promised i would return to that last clause in that expert of your statement. this will lead to real articles of impeachment. there is a lot of ink being spilled on papers across the country about whether democrats should run on this issue, how much they should be talking about impeachment as they campaign for office ahead of the midterm elections. what's your perspective on that? how does what happened tuesday change that conversation within your party? >> well, let me just say this.
i have been talking about impeachment for a long time. my party has not made this their central issue. they have insisted they need to talk about the issues that they believe are central to the concern of the american people. they wanted to make sure that the american people understand and have always understood that medicare is very important, that medicaid is very important, that the obamacare initiative that was signed into law and has been active in making sure that every human being, every citizen have an opportunity to have health care. these are the issues that they have been talking about. they wanted to keep it at the american forefront. i have been saying we can walk and chew gum at the same time. there is no reason why we shouldn't talk about those issues, but allow the american people to understand that we know something is going on and we have seen this president act
in ways that the precedent has, i mean, it's such that we have never seen anybody act in the way that this president is acting. say the things that he said. tell the lies that he has been told. and i think that i believe that the american people want us to at least acknowledge that we know something is going on here, and that somebody is responsible for putting this nation in danger and aligning themselves with putin and the oligarchs and the kremlin. what is this all about? and i think we have a responsibility to talk about it, and our committees of congress should have had hearings about it. so i think we can do both. and i know that there are those who are concerned that somehow, if you talk about impeachment, you are just going to, you know, fire up the hard-core constituency of this president. well, they are fired up already. don't forget, this president said he could stand on fifth
avenue and shoot down fifth avenue and i guess shoot somebody and still get away with it. so all i'm saying is that i think that we have a responsibility to talk about what is going on, to explain what impeachment is and see how the discussion goes. i agree, of course, that this president can be impeached, will be impeached, and certainly has committed the kind of crimes and, high crimes and misdemeanors, that is identified by the constitution as such that would qualify him for impeachment. >> congresswoman, always great to speak with you. thank you very much. congresswoman maxine waters joining me this sunday from california. >> thank you. >> breaking news this hour out of jacksonville, florida. the sheriff's office there confirms a mass shooting has taken place at the jacksonvil jacksonville -- police are urj urging the public to stay away. it occurred during a madden gaming tournament.
that information remains unconfirmed by msnbc news. we will continue to monitor developments from florida. we will bring you that as soon as we get it. we'll be right back. e get it we'll be right back. your winds. >> teacher: let's turn in your science papers. >> tech vo: this teacher always puts her students first. >> student: i did mine on volcanoes. >> teacher: you did?! oh, i can't wait to read it. >> tech vo: so when she had auto glass damage... she chose safelite. with safelite, she could see exactly when we'd be there. >> teacher: you must be pascal. >> tech: yes ma'am. >> tech vo: saving her time... [honk, honk] >> kids: bye! >> tech vo: ...so she can save the science project. >> kids: whoa! >> kids vo: ♪ safelite repair, safelite replace ♪
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the #1 prescribed fda-approved oral combination treatment for hr+/her2- mbc. >> welcome back. a turning point this week for president trump as michael cohen said he was instructed by the president to pay off stephanie clifford. that signaled another turning point, according to my next guest. an unanticipated feminist turning point. a new op-ed for "the new york times" says, here she is, stormy daniels, an imperfect and self-possessed woman telling her story with clarity and without shame and we are actually listening to her. thank you for joining me. you write about how the rules have changed. you look at stormy daniels here in contrast or compliment with this president of the united states and what do you draw from that? >> well, we've never seen this before in american history that a woman who is a sex worker, a
category of people who we historically consider to be fundamentally dishonest and untrustworthy is really shaping american politics and we are collectively believing even over the word of the president. and the fact that stormy daniels is this kind of quote/unquote bad woman, the type of woman we wouldn't typically take seriously and that we are taking her seriously now, i think it really speaks to the degree to which feminism has at least made some gentle shifts in how we perceive women and sexual propriety and how that fleekts on re/* re -- reflects on a woman's character. >> you write, she wants him to be held accountable. the justice system is stepping in. she is refusing to slink away despite being paid to do that in a pattern we have seen from influential men seeking to maintain dominance and avoid responsibility. what i am asking about, how much of is she emblematic of a trend
here happening in u.s. culture at this point? >> she is a big part of the broader #metoo movement. we have seen with harvey weinstein in particular this effort to pay off and push aside women who are inconvenient. and one thing that powerful men have, i think, gotten extraordinarily good at is not only just identifying and pushing them away, but figuring out ways to silence us. they are getting to be the ones who are shaping our narratives, whether that's harvey weinstein shaping the popular culture we consume or somebody like donald trump shaping our politics. we have these men that are really the ones who are telling the stories of our culture. they are the same men who are also silencing women's stories. the fact that stormy is not being silenced here i think is an incredible turning point and really is reflective of a broader shift the #metoo movement has brought about. >> we talked about president trump, i want to ask you about rudy giuliani as well, i want to play that extraordinary clip about him talking about stormy daniels and have you react in
the context of what you have written. let's listen to what rudy giuliani had to say about stormy daniels. >> i respect all human beings. i even have to respect criminals. i'm sorry. i don't respect a porn star the way i respect a career woman or a woman of substance or a woman who has great respect for herself as a woman and as a person. that isn't going to sell her body for sexual exploitation. so stormy, you want to bring a case, let me cross examine you. >> still react -- react as well. i mean, i think a lot of people took notice of what rudy giuliani had to say in his remarks. >> his line about let me cross examine you harkens back too this ugly american history of defense lawyers attacking women, often rape victims, for what they were wearing, for their sexual activity before their
assault. and certainly sex oworkers have never been able to get proper justice. they have never been able to bring things like a rape claim or robbery claims, you know, when they did the police would often disregard them or disrespect them. so what rudy is doing there is making a very clear threat towards stormy daniels and not just her, but all woman like her, that because of what she chooses to do with her sex life and because of how she gets paid, she is not credible and he will use that perceived lack of credibility to publicly humiliate her and shame her on a public stage. it's incredibly ugly and a tool that powerful men have used for centuries to really keep women silenced, to keep us scared, and to put forward this idea that a woman's moral compass is found somewhere between her legs instead of in her heart or head. >> lastly here, just characterize the pivot point we are at. you bring up the valenti book. there is the hawthorne book you
reference as well. what kind of a fulcrum are wwe @? >> i hope we are where we can b men. we have a long history of men in the public sphere being both heroes and villains. john mccain died, and we are talking about his legacy in a complex way. that he can be both a war hero and somebody who legislatively did some things that progressives aren't huge fans of. and obviously also a very complicated personal life. we can look at men through that lens. women haven't really been given that opportunity. we fall into boxes. we end up falling on kind of one side or the other of an extreme pole. and what stormy daniels is insisting on is really being treated as somebody that can be both brave and venal.
that is reflective of i hope how we're shifting our views on women and how women are increasingly allowed to be a bit more complicated in public. >> jill, so good to talk to you. thank you very much. great piece. i hope we can talk again soon. >> thanks. want to return to breaking news i mentioned a few moments ago out of florida, out of the panhandle. t the sheriff's office confirming a shooting has taken place. we have reports the shooting occurred at a game bar during a video game tournament. that information remains unconfirmed by nbc news. we have a sheriff's tweet from the sheriff's department in jacksonville. mass shooting at the jacksonville landing. stay away from the area, the area is not safe at this time. stay away. joining me now is retired atf special agent in charge and msnbc contributor, jim cavanaugh. jim, i want your reaction to this.
first, as i said here, jacksonville landing sounds like a mall-like space on the st. john's river in jacksonville. your counsel at this point, seeing what we're seeing, your reaction. >> you know, real fast, police response. this is right in downtown jacksonville. this is the main entertainment venue outside in jacksonville. the sheriff's office in jacksonville is the city police. they incorporated the city and the county police many years ago back when i was a florida officer. so the county and the city is the same force. it's run by the sheriff. and they're all there in force. it's a big, big force. hopefully they've located and stopped the killing. that's the main objective of the first responding officers. and then, of course, immediately to treat the wounded, get them to trauma centers. >> early minutes of this, yet, of course, we're still trying to figure out what happened, how many people may have been injured in this shooting down in florida. let's just talk about the way this is being communicated thus far. i read a tweet there from the sheriff's office just a moment ago. is the way that we get
information on these shootings getting better or are we getting information on them faster, jim? >> well, we get it fast, david, but we don't get a lot. we get the quick bite from the sheriff's office, which is good. hopefully their public information officers can roll that stuff out, which will help the families, you know, get out notices fast about where the family center is going to be located, where family members can go to get the updated information from the deputies. either roll that out as fast as they can, of course, to help the public, make sure the public knows if the shooter is stopped or there's other shooters could be concerned about. so the more they could roll out quickly, they've got a good beginning here. i hope they can build on it. i think they're a top department. >> more power plant frerspectiv. about what this particular venue is, where it is in that city that's in northeast florida. tell us a bit more about the city, a bit more about where this location is.
>> yeah, it's right downtown on the st. john's river. it's -- has hotels adjacent. it's restaurants and pizzerias and bars. and, you know, boats can actually come up and dock right in front of the place. so it's kind of jacksonville's gathering party venue, event venue. that's where they shoot fireworks off. that's where they have, you know, a lot of, you know, sports-watching and celebration. so everybody in the greater jacksonville area knows the landing and knows where it is. so they're all familiar with this spot. downtown is -- it's in the shadow of the downtown skyscrapers in jacksonville right on the st. john's river. so, you know, a lot of people there all of the time. what this mass shooting might have entailed, david, we don't know. it sounds from the initial report like it's inside of a video gaming bar, venue, where they were having a tournament. some kind of gaming tournament.
now, is that related to the event or unrelated? we don't have any of that information right now. sometimes, you know, you look to see if there is a relation, but it can just be the shooter is after a crowd of people. so we don't really have any of those facts yet. >> just going to read another tweet from the jacksonville sheriff's office updating us on what's happened there. one suspect is dead, they say, at the scene. unknown at this time if we have a second suspect. searches are being conducted. let me ask about that last line. searches being conducted. what's happening at this point in light of the reports we've read? >> well, patrol officers and jacksonville sheriff's s.w.a.t. officers are really trying to secure that immediate area based on any reports of a second shooter. now, david, having been to these active shooters, there's always a report of a second shooter. it's just because witnesses see people with guns, they hear shots, they see people running away. they see plain clothes officers coming to the scene that might
draw a gun. so you get a lot of descriptions and you have to follow up. that doesn't mean there's not a second shooter. so that's the way the on-scene commanders have to deal with it. if there is a report of something like that or they're not sure, they have to secure all those immediate venues to make sure there's no active killing going on. >> just going to reiterate what we know of what happened here in jacksonville, florida. at this point, reports of a shooting in jacksonville, florida. at jacksonville landing, this place on the st. john's river. there are reports it had to do with a video game competition, one that was reportedly broadcast on twitch. want to bring in my colleague, myra rodriguez. get us up to speed on what you know. i'm laying out in broad strokes the information we have here in new york. what are you hearing about what's happened? >> well, we do know it's an unfolding situation at this point, david. we know the jacksonville sheriffs office they're at the scene.
you mentioned there was a video game tournament happening at the landing. that's that mall that has shops and restaurants. this was a tournament that had been planned ahead of time. they had put up some information on a website for the restaurant where this was taking place. it was a video game wbar. there was a live stream going on of that video game tournament and actually captured the moments when that shooting unfolded. the jacksonville sheriff's office has been warning people for the last hour or so to stay away from the area, that it was very dangerous, that the whole situation was still unfolding. they had said there are multiple fatalities at the scene and that many people have been transported. i just want to point out that this is the second high-profile shooting in jacksonville, in as many days. there was a shooting just two days ago at a high school football game in jacksonville, three people were shot. one person was killed. so this mass shooting coming just within the last 48 hours of that particular shooting. but, again, an unfolding situation in jacksonville. i have been to that area before on a sunday afternoon. you can just imagine, there would have been many people
around taking in the st. john's river that entire area in downtown jacksonville. but, again, we are digging into this. we have many more details coming up on msnbc and, of course, tonight on "nbc nightly news." david? >> let me ask you to detail a little bit more of what this place looks like. jacksonville, florida, in northeast florida. t describe for us what this mall is like. am i describing that accurately enough here? is it a mall? what is this facility like? >> it is a mall on what i would consider a river walk, you know, a place where people are to gather for, you know, seeing the fireworks, as that gentleman had just mentioned during the 4th of july or, you know, to go to a bar and have a drink. maybe watch the sunset over the river in the afternoon. you know, in the evening. it's a very casual sort of place. and a place where people would gather to hang out, basically, in downtown jacksonville. so, again, being the weekend and that it was a sunday afternoon, you know, it's likely there were quite a number of people around when all of this happened.
>> i want to ask you to put this into some broader context from your perch in miami. you have covered a number of these shootings, and i just want to get a sense from you of what happens after this. we get this initial word. in your perspective, from your experienced reporting on these shootings, what is likely happening at this point? >> well, at this point, police, of course, are going to try to sweep the area and figure out if anybody else was involved, other than this one suspect who they say is now dead at the scene. was anyone else involved? the other thing they're going to try to do, of course, is try and see if anyone had any cell phone video of the incident. may have seen what had happened. all of that will be evidence they will need to collect and analyze and take a look at. you know, to make sure that this whole investigation unfolds, just the way it needs to. so they have all of the information possible. again, they're also going to try to sweep the entire area. jacksonville landing is not small. it is a big facility. and the downtown area is equally large. they were telling not just regular people, but also the media to stay many, many blocks
away from this particular mall. so they'll need to make sure that that whole area is secure, that the suspect that they have is, in fact, the only person involved. if it is the only person involved. again, i don't believe anyone will be able to have access to this building for quite some time at this point. >> my colleague, myra rodriguez, by phone. and i know we'll be checking in with her throughout the afternoon. thank you for the time and the update. just want to reiterate what the breaking news is we're following out of jacksonville, florida. the sheriff's office there confirming a mass shooting has taken place at the jacksonville landing, as you just heard described by may arodriguez where the st. john's river meets the atlantic ocean. police and the sheriff's office urging members of the public to stay away from that area. you thesee there on your screene latest tweet from the sheriff's office, indicating one suspect is dead at this time. we want to turn to one