tv Lockup Raw MSNBC November 18, 2018 9:00pm-10:01pm PST
man, and yet threw it all away. gary hart is a tragic story. this is a jagged little puzzle of a story. here's some of the pieces. a bitter race for the white house. a candidate who would do anything to win. maybe even conspire with a foreign government. a secret campaign meeting in an iconic tower on new york's fifth avenue. and in this case, a woman, a mysterious woman who may have
tipped the scales at a time when america seemed to be coming apart at the seams. i'm not talking about 2016. this time the year is 1968. >> got news this war and they were afraid to get us out. >> richard nixon is behind the effort to sabotage peace. >> what we do or fail to do can determine the future of peace and freedom for the balance of this century. >> tens of thousands of young americans and vietnamese died that's what was at stake. >> it was horrendous, it was treason by any standard. >> this wealthy and connected asian-american woman could change history. >> lbj knew there was collusion. >> it's definitely a smoking gun as regards richard nixon's direct involvement and actions. >> they're contacting a foreign power in the middle of a war and they oughtn't to be doing this, this is treason.
it's november 3rd, just two days before the 1968 presidential elekds. >> mr. president, i'm getting him right on. >> yes, dick. >> in a call secretly recorded by the white house, president lyndon johnson draws a line in the sand for his old adversary, richard nixon, the republican candidate for president. >> lyndon johnson is desperate before his term runs out to get the north vietnamese and the south vietnamese at the peace table. >> we all want them to come and hope they'll come and really believe they'll come. >> is it a question of -- >> nixon was trying to sabotage those peace talks. if peace talks were announced before election day that would help his opponent.
and it would destroy nixon's very last chance to become president. >> u.s. troops were mired in a brutal conflict between the forces of communist north vietnam and our allies, south vietnam. johnson had escalated the war but now with the death toll soaring, with protests and riots tearing the nation apart, presidents johnson had staked his legacy on getting america out of vietnam. >> johnson is talking to nixon. basically saying i know you're interfering with my diplomacy. and i think it's about as low as you can get. and nixon lies and denies he's doing it. >> you see that your people don't tell the south vietnamese that they're going to get a better deal out of the united states government. >> your people, that's how he puts it to nixon, your people are messing things up. in other calls, johnson didn't hesitate to give nixon's people a name. >> mrs. chennault. >> you keep mrs. chennault and
all the rest of them from running around here. >> mrs. chennault, anna, a woman known to power brokers across asia and in washington, d.c. as the steel butterfly. >> the number one flying tiger and his chinese bride. general claire chennault marries anna chan. general chennault made second world war history and legend as commander of sky battles in china. >> anna chennault has an american story that is truly epically even cinematically unique. she's a refugee from the c communist take over of china, she rises to the highest levels of society and political influence in this country. but then what she did with that influence is a question of deadly seriousness. because with anna chennault and richard nixon we got america's first taste of a candidate colluding with a foreign power to try to win a u.s. presidential election.
and in this case, it would also change the course of a war. >> the chennault affair shows us that this wealthy and connected asian-american woman could change the course of american and vietnamese history. she was a businesswoman, a journalist, she was a significant fund-raiser for the republican party. >> i think she would have loved to have been an ambassador, loved to have had some major job. but i don't think that in those days men didn't take women seriously that way. >> she was in a way, ahead of her time to have these feelings about gee, why are all the people making decisions, white men? >> i've seen hundreds of pictures of her, she's the only woman in the picture. you know, a dozen men and there's anna chennault standing in the middle. >> madam chennault. what is going on in vietnam? >> i just returned from the far east in southeast asia two weeks ago.
>> a globetrotting journalist. the widow of a war hero, revered from burma to beijing and by 1968, the executive for global freight airline. anna had access. >> but she always operated from behind the scenes, because she was a back-channel operator. >> all they care is who is going to have the power to keep peace. >> now artillery is being called in as you can hear, very close. >> war and peace in vietnam in 1968, that was the issue. how to end a war that had turned malignant. >> vietnam was the war that we saw in our living rooms every night. people would be watching the 6:00 news, during dinner and they would see the carnage of vietnam. >> all hell has broken loose.
>> 1968 was lbj's fifth year as commander-in-chief, it was the single deadliest year of the war. already more than 19,000 americans had died in vietnam. more than 170,000 vietnamese had died from the north and the south. >> i think there was a momentum behind that war, so many people had died in it. it's hard for anybody to say let's stop it. >> johnson once said you know i don't want to be the president who loses a war. especially when we had this sort of mythology of having never lost a war as a country. we didn't seem to be winning anything. >> back in the u.s., the war had become personal. vietnam had become johnson's war. >> every time he tries to leave the white house he's met by protesters. every public speech, he's going to hear those chant. you can see the toll that the
war is having on lbj. physically, psychologically. >> the president was under fire from all sides. politicians as well as protesters. >> when the strongest nation in the world can be tied down for four years in a war against a fourth-rate military power in vietnam with no end in sight, then i say it's time for new leadership in the united states of america. >> and yes, at the apex of the war, the u.s. was holding a presidential election. so now let's back up. to march 31st, 1968, the day that vietnam ended the presidency of lyndon b. johnson. >> gosh, this is hard to read, jim, you have no idea. >> on that last evening in march, tv cameras rolled into the oval office. even the president's staff had no idea how their world was about to change as johnson spoke live to an anxious nation.
>> tonight i want to speak to you of peace in vietnam and southeast asia. there is no need to delay the talks that could bring an end to this long and this bloody war. >> johnson was desperately trying to end the war on his watch. he had in his head the hope that somehow, someway he could get the north vietnamese to the negotiating table and end the war. >> i renew the offer i made last august. to stop the bombardment of north vietnam. and the hope that this action will lead to early talks. >> lbj offers to stop the bombing, but only if the north agrees to talk peace with south vietnam. and then johnson plays one last card. >> we worked together on the speech. we went over march 28th, two or three days before the president
was going to deliver it, and the president said, maybe i shouldn't run for office. >> i shall not seek and i will not accept the nomination of my party for another term as your president. >> johnson's speech shocked the world. the president would not run for re-election. and here was his offer to finally end the war. for presidential candidate richard nixon, lbj's peace proposal was a political nightmare. nixon needed the democratic party to own the horror show of the vietnam war, not to solve it. >> and the steel butterfly, anna chennault, she saw lbj's proposed bombing halt as a military blunder. >> every time we stop the bombing, only give the other side the opportunity to rebuild their military installation. the sooner we win the war, the better off we will be. >> richard nixon and anna chennault. their views were closely aligned. there's definitely no crime in
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in 1968, america's war in vietnam drove the news and the presidential election. republican front-runner richard nixon seized river opportunity to flame viewers' anxiety. >> never has so much military, economic and diplomatic power been used so effectively as it is in vietnam. >> this time, vote like your whole world depends on it. >> when 1968, he's not take anything chances. and he sees that the democrats can politicize the peace process
in vietnam to their advantage. and he's not above sabotaging the process. >> the plot is born. july 12, the pierre hotel, 39th floor. nixon campaign headquarters. the candidate and a top foreign diplomat meet in secret in an iconic tower on new york's fifth avenue. >> the only people present at this meeting were nixon himself, his campaign chairman, john mitchell and anna chennault and the vietnamese ambassador, lui diem. nixon decides to make it a very shady operation indeed. >> just four people alone in a back room at nixon's headquarters. let's break it down. john mitchell. nixon's 1968 campaign manager. that name may ring a bell. mitchell will go on to become nixon's attorney general and one
of the co-conspirators sentenced to prison for the crimes of watergate. also, bui diem, saigon's man in washington. and then there's richard nixon. by 1968 the perennial presidential wannabe had lost his last two elections, and he knew this would be his last shot. >> in 1968 he wanted the presidency so bad he was willing to do whatever was necessary. >> this is twice as big a crowd as we had in 1960 and the result is going to be twice as good as in 1960. >> so back on fifth avenue, july 12, we have three men in a hotel room, a veteran politician plotting his comeback. the man running his political operation. and south vietnam's man in washington. plus, one lone woman. anna chennault. >> of course i had the
opportunity to not only talk to the leaders, but the people. >> nixon knew that anna chennault could establish a relationship between him and the south vietnamese and that just in case it became public nixon could pretend that she was not his real envoy. >> after just ten years in washington, d.c., anna had fast-tracked her way to wealth and influence. and a penthouse on top of the brand-new watergate complex. which she made into her private clubhouse for the global elite. >> she loved to do parties. she's notoriously known as the republican social hostess of the nixon era. >> i just remember that when she would walk into a room, she owned the room. >> she had a lot of sexual power. i'm not saying that she had sexual relationships with people. but i just think that she exuded an aura of sexuality and
exoticism that was irresistible to a lot of men. i mean you sit next to a man in power at dinner and you whisper in his ear and you give him a good idea and it is suddenly his idea and he's acting on it. i've seen it happen a million times. >> at her parties she would always serve chinese food. she would make little jokes like, this dish is called concubine chicken. i knew she was heading people on. but in her mind, she was playing to their expectations. yes, this is a chinese woman. >> she knew what she was doing. she was setting up an environment for people to conduct business. >> this is how anna operated. and the july 12 fifth avenue meeting is her masterpiece. we actually dug up the calender page from her daily calender.
new york to see dick nixon with ambassador bui diem. it's chennault who first proposed this get-together to nixon. but it's dick nixon who turns their private meeting into a cloak-and-dagger campaign operation. >> nixon is eager to meet, but wants to keep it secret even from his own secret service detail, which is suspicious all by itself. >> secret meetings, middle men and women. foreign ambassadors, and a tower in new york city. >> exactly what is said is not really recorded anywhere. but the clear message from nixon to the ambassador was -- if you want to communicate anything to me, use mrs. chennault as a way to talk to me. >> the intrigue begins. the goal is to undermine the peace talks that president johnson believes will end the war. sabotage any negotiations that might get u.s. troops out of
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anna chennault touches down in saigon. south vietnam's wartime capital. mrs. chennault feared that south vietnam would be the next domino to fall to the communists. unless america held the line against communist north vietnam. and now anna had come to join the struggle. as richard nixon's secret agent. >> i went with her on one of her trips to saigon. we stayed at the hotel caravel downtown where most of the reporters were staying. a weird atmosphere from the hotel restaurant on top. you could see flares on the edge of the city. bright lights in the night sky.
bombs and so on. the war was a part of everybody's life. >> chennault arrived in saigon with an iron-clad alibi and with contacts that went right up to the top, to south vietnam's president. >> the new information from the campaign to the government is nixon is going to win the war for you, stand by you better than any democrat. >> for anna this mission for nixon was driven by bitter personal history. >> she hated the communists because she had hated what had happened to china. it was about china, china, china. >> anna chennault believed she was on the right side of history. that the worst thing for asia and the asian people was communism. >> only by showing your strength will we be able to bring the communists to the confidence
ruling. until then we will have to carry on our action. >> i don't believe she acknowledged in any way to herself the military situation that existed. >> a lot of people didn't recognize it. >> by august of 1968 america's war on vietnam had already killed yet another 11,700 americans that year alone. for the vietnamese the numbers were even more grim. at least 116,000 dead in just seven months. >> the standard day going into a village and start searching it. throwing stuff around inside somebody's house. and worse. you don't win hearts and minds by burning down houses and shooting chickens. and by taking target practice on some farmer. not that these things were -- typical. but they happened often enough to not win hearts and minds. >> i used to remember thinking
god this is so different than how this war is being portrayed back home. something valiant and noble and containing communism. >> the time has come for honest government in the united states of america. >> in miami richard m. nixon stood before the republican party and for the second time in his life accepted their nomination for president of the united states. >> we shall begin with vietnam. >> nixon was very two-faced about this. >> we all hope in this room that there was a chance for current negotiations bring an honorable end to that war. >> in public in his acceptance speech at the republican convention, said he would do nothing to interfere with the chances for negotiating peace. >> and we'll say nothing during this campaign that might destroy that chance. >> in secret, however, he did everything he could to make sure that peace talks could not start
before election day. because peace talks were the biggest threat to his candidacy. >> that threat is fresh in nixon's mind. just hours before nixon accepted the nomination lbj had called to congratulate him as the president watched the convention from his tv at his texas ranch. >> hello, mr. president, how are you? >> just fine. >> i give you my congratulations and my sympathy. >> boy i tell you isn't that the truth. >> johnson never liked or trusted nixon. it goes way back to the time he was in the senate and nixon was in the senate. >> i want to keep in close touch with you. we're both great political animals.
or completely informed with the same facts. >> to make sure nixon backs the peace talks the president summons him down to his ranch, lbj's home turf, to talk with him face-to-face. >> he and johnson in some ways shared the same character traits. they've been raised in rural areas, without prestigious educations, they both felt inferior in their own way to the northeastern establishment elites. they felt like they were battling in the press and in government. they carry that chip on their shoulders. >> since march johnson had been struggling to coax north vietnam into talks from south vietnam. negotiations looked promising, but it was far from a done deal. >> nixon fears that the north vietnamese will accept johnson's conditions while johnson's fear is nixon will halt the bombing for fewer conditions than i will, then the north vietnamese will wait for my presidency to be over and i won't make any progress towards peace.
>> nixon heads back to the campaign trail. fearful that lbj will swing the election to the democrats by getting north and south vietnam to talk peace. but nixon was playing to win. ready to undermine lbj to steer saigon away from the negotiating table with a word in the ear of the south vietnamese president. from richard nixon's asian connection, mrs. ana chennault. connection, mrs. ana chennault (burke) fender-biter. seen it, covered it. we know a thing or two because we've seen a thing or two. ♪ we are farmers. bum-pa-dum, bum-bum-bum-bum ♪
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at 28 he is the youngest driver to win a cup title in more than a decade. now back to "betrayal." two weeks after the republican convention in miami all eyes turned to the democrats in chicago. the tear gas is floating. >> this is happening on michigan avenue. democratic national convention is in the process of nominating the presidential candidate. >> the chicago convention. the convocation to nominate vice president hubert humphrey to succeed president lyndon johnson. >> i am ready to lead our country. >> the chaos that engulfed the democrats was practically an advertisement for the republican party. candidate richard nixon
capitalized on the anger and unrest. the war at home. >> let us recognize that the first civil right of every american to be free from domestic violence. so i pledge to you, we shall have order in the united states. >> nixon leads in the polls, but his white house dreams are haunted. by lbj's progress toward ending the war. >> nexen worries about a prospect of an october surprise. peace is being negotiated, that it's in hand. and it boosts the prospects of hubert humphrey. >> mid october, lyndon johnson fuels nixon's worst fear. >> who is that speaking? >> i'm on. >> lbj updates the presidential candidates confidently on a big breakthrough in the negotiations. north vietnam at last is willing to talk with south vietnam.
>> this is an absolute confidence because any speeches or any comments referring to this the substance of these matters will be injurious to your country. >> after all this work all year, johnson finally had a package that the north vietnamese would accept. and he was selling it to the south vietnamese. >> nixon gets a top-secret briefing from the commander-in-chief on his progress toward peace. and what does nixon do? he betrays the president and the nation. after a rally in ohio, nixon makes a late night call to his top lieutenant, h.r. haldeman and he orders him to pull the trigger on their scheme. and how do we know this? >> we have the notes taken by nixon's campaign chief of staff. h.r. haldeman. >> it's a smoking gun as regards richard nixon's direct
involvement in actions. >> nixon is asking about how to throw monkey wrench into the process. and he's ordering haldeman to make sure anna chennault stays active. >> nixon had always denied any personal knowledge of anna chennault's behavior. and, wow, all of a sudden here he is in haldeman's notes saying keep anna chennault working on the south vietnamese and any way else we can monkey wrench johnson's initiatives. it's not just one casual remark, it's a whole battle plan. >> the very next day after nixon orders his chief of staff to monkey wrench it, to keep anna chennault on the job telling saigon to not go along with the peace talks, the very next day anna's friend, bui diem, south vietnam's man in d.c. wires his superiors back home in saigon
and he says this, quote, many republican friends have contacted me and encouraged us to stand firm. u.s. intelligence intersettlemenintercepts that cable. once president johnson gets wind of the republican interference he orders the fbi to wiretap the vietnamese embassy. >> october 30th, the fbi sends president johnson a classified memo. ambassador diem received a call from an unidentified woman believed to be anna chennault. >> johnson is flabbergasted. he did not see this coming. >> ms. chennault is the go-between. she's young and attractive, a pretty good-looking girl and she's around town and she has been warning them to not get
pulled down on this johnson move. >> it's not totally unusual that an american presidential candidate would have a go-between with a war-time ally. the issue is whether or not that representative is charged with taking steps to undermine the government's policy. >> while lbj and his national security team strategize about how to close the deals on the peace talks the fbi begins round the clock surveillance on anna chennault. >> she's followed by the fbi. there's fbi reports of her activities. john mitchell is very concerned about talking to her and making sure they only talk on an anonymous phone that won't be bugged. >> now that johnson has north vietnam on board he tries to force all parties to the peace table. he wants to make it impossible for south vietnam to say no to
the talks. the next evening october 31st halloween, while kids across the country are heading out for trick-or-treating, johnson takes over the air waves to address the nation. >> i speak to you this evening about very important developments. >> just five days before the election, richard nixon's nightmare, the october surprise lurches to life. >> we have reached the stage where productive talks can begin. i have now ordered that all bombardment of north vietnam cease. a regular session of the paris talks is going to take place next wednesday, november the 6th. at which the representative for the government of south vietnam are free to participate.
>> moments after the president's speech nixon's campaign chairman john mitchell calls his go between, anna chennault. >> mitchell is on the phone to her that night, calls her out of a party to talk to her. have her call him back on an anonymous phone so that he can check with her and make sure are the south vietnamese going to hold firm? are they not going to come to the peace talks? >> november 2nd, the fbi tapped the south vietnamese embassy telephone and overheard anna chennault telling the south vietnamese ambassador hold on, we're going to win. >> from president bui's perspective, it's no little thing to defy the president of the united states. but this gave him confidence to go forward in front of his national assembly and make the
speech. >> the united states have ended the bombing. >> this is where anna chennault is important because she was saying, you know, if you defy johnson there is another president, if you help him get elected who would stand by you. namely richard nixon. >> president tu, america's ally drops his own bombshell on lbj. quote, the government of south vietnam regrets not to be able to participate in the present exploratory talks. south vietnam's president sends a signal to washington, loud and clear, three days before the american election. there will be no peace talks while lyndon johnson is in office. with the clock ticking down richard nixon has sabotaged lbj's quest to end the war. but one last twist remained to play out.
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everett, how are you? >> all right. >> i want to talk to you as a friend and very confidently. because i -- >> three days before the election, lyndon johnson strikes back. the president calls the senate's top republican everett dirksen with a message for dick nixon. nixon's people, he says, are treading on dangerous ground and the president has the goods to burn agent anna chennault. >> here's the latest information we got. the agent says that she's just talked to the boss and he says
just hold on until after the election. >> when you hear johnson talking to dirksen. you hear in johnson this master politician who has used threatening tactics throughout the course of his political career to achieve his political ends. >> it's classic johnson. it's classic, get to the head of the republican party to try and get nixon to do this. >> this is treason. >> i know. >> they're contacting a foreign power in the middle of a war. >> and it's mistake. >> and it's a damn bad mistake. you just tell them that their people are messing around in this thing if they don't want it on the front pages, they better quit it. >> he's holding out the prospect of going public with this explosive story. at the same time, you can hear johnson's palpable anger and indignation that somebody would tamper with the peace process
that could end a war. >> senator dirksen delivers the message to the nixon camp. the very next morning, sunday, two days before the election. >> meet the press. >> richard nixon launches his cover up on live tv. >> i want to make a very clear in every one of my public statements and including in "meet the press," i stand with the president with regard to his efforts to get the paris negotiations off dead center. >> after making that public lie, nixon doubles down on his cover-up in a very private call. >> mr. president? >> yes. >> this is dick nixon. >> this conversation is a master class in political subtext and subterfuge. >> just want you to know that any rumblings around about somebody trying to sabotage the saigon government attitude certainly has absolutely no
credibility as far as i'm concerned. >> i'm very happy to hear that, dick, because that has taken place. and here's the history of it. >> you got two guys sort of bluffing each other. johnson wants nixon to think he's got the goods on nixon himself. nixon wants johnson to think he has nothing to do with this. >> my god, i would never do anything to encourage hanoi. i mean saigon, not to come to the table. we got to get them to paris or you can't have the peace. >> lbj knew there was collusion with the south vietnamese government to keep them from negotiating the peace. what lbj couldn't prove definitively was that nixon was involved. >> some of the old china lobby are going around and implying -- >> anyone with half a brain knows that richard nixon is behind this effort to sabotage the peace talks, because the
south vietnamese would not listen to a fundraiser. anna chennault, unless they knew for sure that she was speaking for nixon. >> you see that your people don't tell the south vietnamese that they're going to get any better deal out of the united states government? >> one fact remained unspoken but well understood. if this story hit the news, richard nixon's white house dreams would explode in scandal. in saigon, a veteran foreign correspondent was poised to light the fuse. >> as the november election approached, i heard this outlandish rumor that i cabled the monitor overseas editor. >> beverly deepe had covered the war in vietnam for six years, this promised to be her biggest
scoop yet for the "christian science monitor." >> saigon october 28th, there's a report here that vietnamese ambassador to washington bui diem has notified the foreign ministry that nixon aides have approached him and told him that saigon government should hold to a firm position now regarding negotiations. if nixon is elected, he'll back the queue government in their demands. >> so, november 4, the day before the election nixon gets a call that he has in his hands a story saying that republican interference is responsible for saigon's decision to boycott the paris peace talks and he's asking johnson for comment. johnson can make what he knows public and let the voters decide
or he can keep this information classified as it then is. he is torn. everything is at stake. >> this is it. the day before the election. the christian science monitor bfs on the brink of breaking the news. johnson has a chance to blow nixon's cover. would he do it? >> he asks the wise men of his administration, people he trusts and he asks them what to do. >> all of his advisers are unanimous. they say you can't make this public. this is information we have picked up through classified sensitive sources, through the nsa, through the cia and now through the fbi. and if we start putting this kind of information into elections, that's going to change what kind of country we are. >> johnson concludes that they're right, and he doesn't do
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nbc news projected richard nixon the 37th president of the united states. >> nishen wins by the second narrowest margin of the 20th century. the single narrowest election was in 1960, the election that nixon lost to president kennedy. >> winning is more fun. >> nixon wins and anna thinks i will be a big deal in this administration because richard nixon owes me. and basically he wants no part of her. >> the nixon administration were >> the nixon administration were afraid of any position for which she would have to have a senate confirmation or under oath and
asked a question about the october events. >> she was taken advantage of in not being offered a real position. it is possible that she herself felt she was most taken advantage of by president nixon. >> i suspect that she didn't like nixon because nobody liked him. but she got burned. you lie down with dogs you get fleas. >> each moment in history is a fleeting time. but some stand out as moments of beginning. in which courses are set that shape decades or centuries. >> nixon wins in part thanks to johnson's decision not to make public what he knew about ji nixon's treachery.
nixon's plot to undermine the vietnam peace talks. >> i do solemnly swear. >> president johnson did believe that this was a treasonous act. that ultimately led to an expanded war. >> will to the best of my ability preserve, protect and defend the constitution of the united states. >> this was not just tinkering with a few votes. this cost 20,000 american lives. i don't know how many thousand wounded. the cost of that was horrendous, you know, it was treason by any standard. >> those who said no to the war, draft dodgers, resistors, they were described as treasonous. well, if i had known as a soldier in vietnam that nixon had scuttled or certainly delayed for sure a peace process, it seems treasonous and more treasonous than the guys who said, no, i'm not going to
kill people. >> so, was it treason? nixon worked surreptitiously with a foreign power to sabotage the united states and tilt a presidential election. would that be treason? 50 years later that question of course how new and dismal relevance. 50 years after nixon did it we have the benefit of explicit evidence. >> i have that documented. >> locked in the vaults of the johnson presidential library there's a secret folder. it's marked do not open for 50 years. it's called i kid you not, the "x" file. when johnson left the presidency he buried all of his evidence on the chennault affair. >> johnson wanted all thise evidence of the horrible things nixon was doing in this envelope
to blackmail him with if that was ever necessary. >> tracking down lbj's x file became an attraction. rumors swirled that it was locked up in a safe in washington's think tank. well, nixon's gang of thieves never did manage to steal the x file, but one year later that same bunch of crooks, the white house plumbers, did try to pull off a similar caper at the iconic washington complex known as watergate. >> i shall resign the presidency effective at noon tomorrow. >> for decades the american people have hoped that with the demise of president richard nixon we'd seen the end of that level of criminal scandal at the highest level of our politics. now we know that nixon's criminal scheming included what
the sitting president at the time believed to be treason by nixon to get himself into the white house. almost unimaginable. at least it used to be. >> now that's the welcome to a special live edition of revolution. i'm joined by my dear friend and colleague. recode cofounder kara swisher. she spoke with mark benioff last week about the multi-billion