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tv   Lockup Raw  MSNBC  November 18, 2018 10:00pm-11:01pm PST

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the sitting president at the time believed to be treason by nixon to get himself into the white house. almost unimaginable. at least it used to be. >> now that's the welcome to a special live edition of revolution. i'm joined by my dear friend and colleague. recode cofounder kara swisher. she spoke with mark benioff last week about the multi-billion dollar empire he built at
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salesforce and his efforts to change the worltd. we'll get the interview with marc in a bit. first. if we're talking tech we must address facebook. it is under fire. the tech giant facing mounting questions after the release of a bomb shell "new york times" investigation. that was published shortly after kara and marc sat down. "new york times" calls into question what facebook knew about russian interfeens in the 2016 election and when they knew it. according to the report facebook coo and founder ceo mark zuckerberg ignored warning signing and actively concealed findings of russian interference. instead they focussed on growth, growth and more growth. and so what did mark zuckerberg do at the time? he went on a so called apology tour. cheryl stayed back and mounted an aggressive lobbying campaign to under cut facebooks critics.
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facebook employed an opposition research firm. unfamiliar name to all of us. a consulting group run by republican operatives. they use the tactics of a political campaign for corporate clients. discrediting activist protestors in the movement. by linking them to big democratic finance near. george sorrows. and published articles that blasted facebook competitors like apple and google. in response. cheryl says this. we did not pay anyone to create fake news. that they have assured me was not happening. again, we are doing a thorough look into what happened.
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in a moment we'll be joined by alex. no better person to speak to than this. the chief security officer for facebook. during that period described in the times report. he has since left the company and is msnbc cyber security analyst. it's an important story. let's bring in the lead reporter on the "new york times" story cyber security report. >> let's talk about the report itself. it's been under controversy. facebook is striking back. go over what you think the key elements are. it's been twisted by facebook. >> it has been. it's been interesting. the response has been to deny things that are not in the story. so let's start by going over what the story says. it says is that in the wake of finding evidence there was russian activity on the platform the company took its time in investigating further. they did nfgt that investigation happened slowly and when the investigation began to uncover evidence of russian activity, they were very slow to publicly acknowledge what they were finding.
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that's what the story lays out and executives doing battle within the company within the security team. to hide from the public the extent of what they found. >> why do you think they were so slow? we know facebook well. they were slow to put russia in the report. i have had many conversations about that. talk about what happens at facebook where this sort of slow roll. which they do with everything. >> it's true. for company that likes to say move fast and break things. they are slow to take things public. it was a combination. they were concerned about what possible litigation they could face. whether it would be facing legal action or recourse. given what they found. and also really afraid about the mood in washington. you have to remember this came at a time when conservatives backed by the trump administration were very wary of tieing any kind of victory on the part of trump to russia. and they felt like if they went
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public and said actually we have found a great deal of russian activity. russia was doing far and above and beyond what we have acknowledged. it would bolster trump critics. >> since your story broke, many of us assume we would hear from zuker burg. saying yes this is a huge problem. and this is what we're doing today. friday, he is now pushing saying the leakers and the company that's who we'll find and go after. >> yeah. he held a meeting last week. he defiant and trying to boost company moral. you can understand why an execive wants to do that. and rally the troops. but i can tell you since the story has been published i have been reached out to by facebook that i have never spoken to before. saying i'm worried. i have read things that concern me. they're not being addressed by managers or executives and we're worried about what the future of the company is.
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>> can i ask you kara, are you surprised that was his response? >> no. who would be to blame. it's always the response to be aggressive and the same thing happened tim cook. they got petty and small with the droitd phones. what is the mentality here who is to blame? >> they'll blame big departments. blaming communication department. which she rins. she wouldn't name anybody. it's easy to throw a general group of people under the bug. again we're not seeing anyone stand up and say the buck stops with me. >> all right. stay there. we'll bring in facebook former chief security officer. so you responded to this "new york times" bomb shell. thank you for coming on. with an op sed in the "washington post." saying facebook should've responded earlier and handled the disclosure in a transparent manner.
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why you think facebook leadership failed to do both? >> one of the issues is we're talking about a rolling disclosure. we knew about certain things during the election 2016. there's a period after the election where there's an intense look at the fake news. there wasn't public communication about it. when we discovered the bulk of the russian activity in 2017. the big mistake the pane made, i was there at the time. i have responsibility too. was not being much more wholesome about the fact this is a huge deal. we didn't have confidence this was all of it. and there was work that had to happen collectively to stop this. instead we did release everything and nobody lied nobody covered anything up.
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i feel like the initial way the these are communicated really sets the bar of whether or not a company will be seen as part of the solution or problem. facebook didn't take that opportunity to say we're part of the solution. we're working on this. >> what is that within facebook? nobody is saying it's a cover up. it's sloppy management. or fearful of other things. when you go to cover up it goes too far. at the same time you have to respond. this was something they knew was happening. >> what we knew at the time. the problem is if you talk about the right after the election in the spring. of 2017. the fake news phenomenon was a really mystifying of what was behind it. research went into what was generating the fake news people were seeing on facebook. the vast majority turned out to not be russian. it's financially motivated really low quality journalism. but that the fact that the majority was not government
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sponsored i think reduced the speed at which the investigation happened into that part that is russian sponsored. which while small is important because of why it was on facebook and who was driving it. >> we'll never the impact either. tim cook sat down in an earlier revolution special. and user privacy. >> the truth is, we can make a ton of money. if we mono-tize our customer. if our customer was the product. and we can make a ton out of money. we elected not to do that. you are not our product. you are our customer. you are a jewel. and we -- we care about the user experience. and we're not going it traffic in your personal life. i think it's an invasion of privacy. i think it's privacy to us is a human right. this is something we have always felt really.
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>> what would you do? >> i wouldn't be in the situation. >> clearly mark zuckerberg wasn't receptive to the criticism. which was a dig. he encouraged employees to replace iphone by droid. >> i still have an iphone. it's a great product. and apple does build products that have good security and privacy. >> talk about that idea of what who is responsible here. i know you don't want to be seen.
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you did talk about this. cheryl did you had a back and forth. that was difficult. can you talk about that and who has to be a hero within the companies to bring this stuff out or what has to happen here? >> so one of the challenges here is that this kind of organized propaganda was nobody's job at facebook when it happened in 201. our team the security team was focussed on the kind of more technically sophisticated actions from china and iran. this fell between the cracks. we had to catch it. we had a team that was focussed on government abuse. in the long run what was really necessary was to pull together people from the product of engineering side. to own it. that took too long. we can focus on the operational steps. finding 5 hin russian accounts and shutting them down. and hate speech. the truth is you can't really make change unless you change how the product works. that's one of the things i learned in the long run. in silicon valley we have to think about the adversarial harmful use of the technology we build way earlier. >> that's an issue i have
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hammered facebook on. the lack of consequences. and anticipating consequences. who is it blame here? who is responsible. are the people in charge able to anticipate the next election? you have been talking about that 2018 worked out well with the midterm. into 2020 will it be an issue? >> so, i see the people who are most responsible for the issues facebook is facing is the team that has dri driven growth and engagement online. we have to measure all the downside. and use those metrics to change how we build the products. you're right the 2020 election sound like it's a long way away. everybody is exhausted from the midterm.
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the truth is the democratic primary has effectively started and if you look at the last set of accounts that facebook has taken down. they're mostly instagram and aim left. if you read the tea leaves of the russians it might be getting involved in the democratic primary very quickly. we can't wait before we address the issue. >> can the leadership of facebook handle this? >> i think the that the top changed a lot. the truth is mark cares about his reputation. of the company. and i think that's actually one of the benefits of having a founder led company. he is not responsive to the shorm term whim of wall street. the things facebook has to do is cost money. they'll make less money from growing slower. and spend a lot of money fixing the problems. i think that they're engaged on it. the question is is can they move fast enough with the bad guy ts. what things happen on facebook at any moment. that's a constant moving target. >> and who he's responsive to. joining us now the author of the facebook effect. david cook. back in back with us. "new york times" cyber security
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reporter. we just heard from alex who is the chief security officer at facebook. what do you have to say in response? >> i don't think this is the same company i wrote a book about eight years ago. i don't think mark zuckerberg has shown he's giving it the priority that alex is acting like he is. i don't have the confidence that the company is willing to take the range of measures that are necessary to really address the very broad set of problems. it's not just political interference in the united
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states. we're talking about genocide in countries. talking about enabling the election of people in brazil and turkey and hungry. this is a global problem. not just in english. it's in 133 languages and the company simply isn't taking it seriously. >> to that point, alex, would the company ever consider or need the government to step in and say maybe you need to take a pause for 30 days. and take a look at what you're actually doing and the damage being caused. if facebook were faced with fines every time this information were spread. or the risk of losing their license. i guess they would do more than build a war room. >> the to respond to david. it is true. facebook is facing difficult problems over seas and that is going to be much more of a challenge. than the one in the u.s. some are fundamental issues of deciding who is deciding who gets to speak. and who decides what is acceptable political discussion. we talk about facebook is the only company that acted to take down misinformation on the society. the vast majority was on what's app. facebook gave privacy to brazil. by incrypting messages. this is some fundamental issues we have to decide. do you want the level of incredible privacy from the government and facebook. or facebook to be reading everybody's messages. it's not that simple to decide
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where do you strike on that line. >> you wrote this piece. what do you imagine the impact will be on the leadership of the facebook. they seem to got the back up. what do they need to do from your perspective? >> david started speaking he said that he doesn't think facebook is the same company as when he wrote the book. i think part of the problem is it is. the same people are leading that have always led. people like alex who spoke out and had differing opinions are no longer at the company. what i think concerns me when i was reporting this out, was that time and time again we saw the same reaction from the top. taking this seriously. things will change. we promise we'll do things differently. and again reporting this we kept
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seeing they're not doing things that differently. they put new measures into effect. a lot is dealing with the problems of the last election. something like disinformation is ever evolving. what are they willing to do and police. these robs are going to keep hitting them. >> why are they so untouchable? cheryl business is runs the communication division. >> mark has controls the company. he has 60%. he's the controller. >> that's what people don't realize the difference in mark's position vs. your average ceo. >> talk about this idea of what they can do. >> there's a lot of things about mark that are unusual. the richest 34 year-old in history. doing this stuff. tlfsz a saturday night live skit. i do bad stuff and i get money. that's unfortunately the situation.
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he's in. i want to respond to what alex said, yes these are very complex problems. but facebook attitude has consistently been we get it. give us time. we'll fix it. i do not believe facebook alone is capable of fixing this huge range of problems they have. they are earnest. mark is somebody who i generally accept is good intentioned and really wants this to be a community building service. he is not going to succeed without working much more actively with government and civil society organizations. even with his critics. instead they have taken this attitude we'll do it and attack everybody who disagrees with us. >> i want to finish up. what's your reaction? can one person control this massive communication system
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that the world has never seen. >> the response to the article has been interesting. we have heard here in u.s. government call for regulation and hearings. and the same calls from the eu. my concern is the government isn't equipped to make the highly technical decisions. and free speech. so i think it's going to be an interesting time to be watching what goes town. i don't see an obvious solution for the problem. >> alex in your op-ed you offer improvements in order to avoid the out come in the future. is the problem facebook can fix it for the 2020 campaign begins. what has to be done? let's spin it forward in terps of not what happened. i like to talk about that. but where we need to go. >> there's a couple things we have to do. congress needs to regulate online adds. it's true that facebook and google in particular spr taken steps to control mitt cal advertising to make it hard to have the attack using their add net works. those standards are voluntary. the companies can drop them any time.
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they don't apply to the thousand other companies. we need to draw the line. this is a really difficult line between government and tech. the companies act in a governmental manner. nobody elected them. nobody elected them to have the power. we have to be careful what we ask the companies to fix.
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in doing so we might grant them powers that down the road we would rather have kept for ourselves in a democratic way. >> lots of employees have reached out to you since the report. one can say lots of companies have anonymous sources people at the water cooler who are unhappy. this is different from just people who are saying work is stinky. >> it is. it's because facebook internally has such a happy go lucky culture. more than any other tech company i have covered. there's a vibe at facebook is everybody is drinking the cool aid and happy to be there. mark gets on stage and has a rallying call and they chime in. those that are out liars and worried don't feel they can voice the concern. that is worrying. you need people willing to speak up and sound the alarm. >> thank you all. great conversation. david, alex and as promised after the break. you'll get your special interview. kara saturday down with salesforce ceo marc benioff. she sat down with him before the face bike story. he had striking things to say about the social media giant and other tech ceos. eos.ld a grudge by raising your rates over one mistake. you hear that, karen? liberty mutual doesn't hold grudges. how mature of them! for drivers with accident forgiveness, liberty mutual won't raise their rates
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marc. thank you for inviting me to your e vail lair atop san francisco. >> thank you for coming up. >> let's start with prop c. which is a proposition on homelessness. how do you feel about it passing? it will tax businesses like yours. >> it's great.
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>> you backed it. >> i backed it. and also because we have a very serious situation here. in san francisco. of a crisis of homelessness. and no one is wanted to jump in. nobody wants to do anything. and it's the most serious it's ever been. 7,500 homeless individuals. 1,200 homeless families each with two kids. we need to do something. we have a great new answer. which i think will be fantastic. >> are you surprised your peers who oppose you on prop c. >> i did surprise them. >> you had a public fight. why was that? >> i think it's you're kind of taught in business school you hear business taxes and say no. that's the way you're supposed
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too add ceo. the reality is in today's world especially san francisco that's not what you can do. you have to really be mindful and think about what a is it that you want your company to be for and what you're doing with your business. here at salesforce that's very importance to us. we realize the business of business is improving the state of the world and platform for change. i realize i can have a an impact reducing homelessness by taxing myself. >> you always called them out. why do you do that so publicly? others don't. in the tech community everything does it quietly. >> i was just minding my own business supporting prop c. on twitter. on my stream of tweets. and then all of a sudden i was going down a dark alley of said hold on, i don't agree with this and copied my tweets and i said okay what's your plan? if you're not. the sea of twitter said i oppose this. what's your plan and what are you doing for the homeless? what's your plan? he said well, i guess i don't have one. i said what are you giving. he said you're just distracting me. he said this on twitter. it was a public discussion. i said, well i feel very strongly. we're in a crisis in san francisco. we have 7,500 homeless individuals. 1,200 homeless families each
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with two kids. >> specifically you are in two brackets. for the homeless and for the kids. or for yourself. >> you're for the homeless. or you're for yourself. yeah. for me it was by nar. and that's because i walk around san francisco every day and so do you. you can see we're in a horrible situation. what are we going to do about it? >> you have said i have gone to every high net worth individual in the city. who is willing to give money and who isn't. why do you use the in your face tactic? >> i felt i was just responding to him. >> generally you have been. >> i'm willing to say if somebody challenges me. i won't go directly for somebody. >> airbnb in san francisco. he's a ceo. will give $5 million to the homeless. >> and others are coming forward. >> what sets it off? >> finally you have the permission. and that's coming from the employees. a lot of the employees of the companies were upset. those companies were not
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supporting prop c. i was kind of a little bit. i had nancy pelosi and feinstein and spear. and i had the priest and rab byes and that helping me. there were no ceos on my side. now they're coming out. it's helpful. >> do you worry about coming across as a blow hard. do you worry about na. >> no. i'm only worry about doing what's right. i'm about saying i know that i'm trying to help the homeless. then of course you have people who are going to be people who are nay sayers and all the people who are trying to knock you off your thing. the reason we got prop c passed is because this is the right thing for the city. and 61% of the population is voted. for prop c. >> there might be legal challenges to it. >> that could always happen.
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the reality is this is the will of the people. >> again you don't also mind getting in talking about the crisis in tech. this tech lash that's going on. how do you look at this? there's a growing problem income and equality. and where jobs are doing. the addiction issues. where the money is coming from. like saudi arabia and google about whether they should work for the defense department. >> never a better time for your industry. >> great to be an annoying reporter. what is happening in tech? is there really a problem now? with tech not being what it used to be? >> today technology and the industry is in a crisis of trust. companies have to decide what is their highest value? what is the most important to them. today many companies don't know that.
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maybe because they were built on a product vision. or built just only on the technology vision. and have to switch and think about trust is our highest value. some companies made that shift. some haven't. those who haven't made the shift are paying a big price. >> who hasn't? >> cases where ceos lost the job. uber. and really ended up with a crisis of trust and the board removed him. because they didn't trust him. and they were worried. can he really help us to get us to where we need to go as a company. that's why for example if his job. building trust. that's a message not just for
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every tech company, it's for every company. >> tech was supposed to be this happy thing. this thing that was inspirational. >> i never thought of tech as happy thing. >> you know. inspiration. the idea of the future. >> i think this is what cos should be doing. leaning into the future and saying what kind of values will we lead in with. the idea is what is your highest value? and salesforce we think about trust. nothing is more important than the trust we have with our customers. partners and employees. key stake holders and think about other key things like equality. if we're not about it for every human being. what are we for. that can be gender or lgbt. or making sure we have great public education. >> has tech done enough or let down this country? >> you should ask that question about business. business is this incredible force through the whole country. we are built on capitalism. that is one of the great things in the united states. a capitalist society. and that means we encourage entrepreneur ship. and just from not just from the days of steve jobs and apple. but the days of henry ford. and every company is built on a set of core values. business is this incredible force through the whole country. we are built on capitalism. that is one of the great things in the united states. a capitalist society. and that means we encourage entrepreneur ship. and just from not just from the days of steve jobs and apple. but the days of henry ford. and every company is built on a
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set of core values. today the values are more important than ever. you have to think about what kind of company are you building. what do you care about. what is really important to you. and what is your leadership mean. what do your products mean. you know there's certain companies in this valley that are challenged right now with values. they can't say we'll do the right thing. instead we'll build the best product we can. and those are two different things. >> are they responsible for problems? >> absolutely. 100% for the disaster they're creating. not just for the brand.
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but society itself. they won't say we're going to make sure trust is our highest value. and here's how you know, you can see their executives are walking out. employees are walking out. customers are walking out. that will continue to happen. if they don't change the values. >> is there one that's the worst offender? >> i think that there isn't a worst or best. >> there's a worst. go ahead. >> i'm not saying a worst or best. i don't know. so you might know. you know the people better than i do.
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with the way i look at it there's an opportunity. for every company to be an agent of change. that business is the greatest platform for change. exactly i have said. you have to decide do you want trust as your highest value. are you going to stand for employees. and that's a major issue. and you can really look at it squarely in gender equality. it's of course equal advancement. and equal opportunity. it's also paying men and women equally. >> google is an issue. >> and preventing sexual harassment. >> also google. go ahead. >> i'm saying -- >> recently. >> if you want to make it a core of the culture and that's important. it's easy to do. it's very easy to do. if you want to switch and you want to not be about that. that's easy to do. we can look at each one of those areas of business and culture to really understand what kind of company do you have on your hands. >> do you think tech can redeem itself in 2019? >> no. i don't think so. the problems are big. i think they are multi-stake holder. it's not just about technology. it's about government. it's also about other key stake holders including consumers that everybody will have to come together to understand where we're going. moving into the industrial revolution. this is the biggest most exciting change to the society ever. all the companies and everyone goes into the fourth industrial revolution together we better do so with the right values or end up with a society we're not happy with. >> we'll talk about immigration and lgbt rights. you have had controversy around
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so we're here at the top of the salesforce tower. i like to call it the evil lair. explain the building. >> when i first got up here i looked around and i'm like this is such an amazing experience. everybody has to have the opportunity to come up here. in fact we have 6,000 people coming up here a week. the general public will be able to come up here.
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this is not just for the company. but it's part of who we are. non-profits and ngos when we're not using it on night and weekends can use it for fund raising. and the floor below us. >> you want to vet the community use it. which most tech communities don't it. they have the in the air beautiful places. >> it's tightly integrated with the community. we can give back. it's not just here. and every city we have a big tower. indianapolis. new york. london. tokyo. same thing. atlanta. >> what's the hawaiien thing? the shirts and the. >> we don't have tiks. we love the wor. it means family. >> all right. two different things that
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happened. one was positive for you. you went up against then governor mike pence in indiana. around antiguy and lesbian things they were doing. >> you gave me an award. >> a big gay award. why did you do that. what was the impact of that? that is when people were not stepping out. >> it's very important for our employees that we stand for equality. and that means no discrimination. regardless of race or gender, sexual orientation. we'll make sure you have a free place to work. that the government is not going to impede on who you are.
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and we were in a state in indiana that signed a law that said we're not going to do that. there's going to be restrictions. >> you used your economic power to say no. >> economic power and i used the power of a phone call. and said hey make, can we adjust it. and he agreed it to changing law. and we got back to a good place together. >> on the flip side you under went a controversy like google has. around border patrol. work that salesforce does for -- working with the government. you do government work. some of it will be controversial. rite now with immigration. that's a big issue. you make recruitment software. for the customs and border patrol. some want you to not.
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and pull out. you decided not to. >> this is a very important topic. 90 days ago, we decided we have to put something new in place in salesforce. that's the office of ethical and humane use. the idea is we have a structure and a vehicle to engage. not only employees but key stake holders and have discussions about where's all this technology going. and how are the products being used. ethically? >> you decided differently. that you want to keep working for the government. others criticize that. you should not be working for the government. which is abusing immigrants. >> there's not any finish line. when it comes to the ethical and humane use of technology. that is we are in a new world. and how our technology that we're creating here is going to be used in. u.s. government or in corporations. this is all has to be looked at. >> did you make the right decision? >> absolutely. >> because. >> we made it with the employees. with the activists groups and the employees. and we're not going to all agree. we can have the discussion and we can fig yir out how to move forward together. >> did you mind still being criticized for helping possibly hurt immigrants at that border where families are separated? >> that wasn't true. there are things --
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>> other things. >> there were things being said that weren't true. that's fine. that's not the point. the point is we didn't have way to have the conversation and now we do. i think every company will need to be able to have a structured conversation around humane use. >> you gave $1 million. and sent it back. >> we give a lot of money to non-profits and i think there was so much rhetoric around what was going on. it wasn't clear for some of them what we were involved in. >> let's talk about the chief ethics officer. is it going to be something more than deciding whether to use a certain vendor. or where's a.i. going. who should contribute. people think it's a p.r. stunt. to have a chief ethical officer. >> we're one of the first to actually have -- >> is it going to have meaning? >> the first thing we did. we got the top experts in ethics from all over the world. including the united states.
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not just universities but key activist groups. non-profits and amnesty international and had discussions. right on this floor. to say how do we make sure the products that we're selling and building and marketing are being used ethically and humanely. that's becoming a core and strategic value of salesforce. >> do you think other tech companies need these. or thinking about these things? people feel i have written this, that these tech ceos didn't take a humanity course. and the issues they're facing. it's hard to know what to do. >> we're at a point in the his history of technology. the fourth industrial revolution. every company in the industry will have to look at the ethical and humane use of the technology they're building. you can see ta already in different countries with different type of organization structures. they're using technology that here in the united states we would never permit. >> china. surveillance. >> europe is gdpr. saying enough is enough. we'll make sure you can control your data. everybody needs to start to take position.
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>> we're looking at san francisco. you said you wouldn't run for mayor. if there's a ground swell of support. would you do that? the city is in need. >> i believe business is the greatest platform for change. and at the ceo of salesforce and it's evidenced by what happened with prop c. what we have done with the medical center. and the public school. what we'll do for the homeless. we can do far more here. than any politician can do. in a political office. i so strongly believe i'm in the right job. >> san francisco. that we can see amidthe haze and smoke. what do you see san francisco in 20 years? >> i hope that we're a light unto the nation. this is a city that's an example of not only great technology progress. but great social progress as well. we have had that in the past. here's the home of the summer of love. here's the home of great companies we all know. wells fargo and gay rights. i hope we see other things. >> home of the internet.
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>> i hope we'll see great things emerge out of the city that lead us into the future. the same way the other things have led us as well. >> you're hopeful? >> i am a hopeful person. optimism. nothing better. still ahead. why marc benioff bought time magazine and what he'll doing with it. and what he thinks of the facebook. ♪
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many issues that we cover, they care about community, they care about trust, which is the core of our brand, it is also the core value of the sales force, and the business, so it is a great alignment. >> so mark, unexpectedly, you bought "time" magazine. can you explain that? i was sort of shocked. >> well, we had been talking to meredith corporation about this great purchase they made which was the whole "time" franchise which included the magazine, fortune magazine, sports illustrated and people magazine
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and the reason it was so interesting to me is i really believe this is a more important time to have a positive global impact than ever. it is one of my core values. and i thought one of these media brands could be used in such a positive way. and for a while, we thought we might end up with another one of these brands and all of a sudden, it became clear to us the brand that we can have the biggest impact is "time" magazine. >> were you trying to copy jeff bay bezos and you moguls get together and now it is not baseball teams now. >> and if you had asked me, if you are buying time magazine or this franchise, it then became crystal clear that this is something that would trade once and the global impact with time is so unprecedented. and it is an iconic and historic
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brand and the ability to tell stories with it that can create positive change. >> you wanted to create positive change but you're not operationally involved. how are you going to run this? henry was very active. would you order up angry trump cover, i'm mad at trump? >> time has been a trusted brand for humanity but it has been held back by the structure of time inc. and time-warner and all of those things. it is the first time since the founder whom you had just mentioned had started the company, started the magazine, it is very much like that. it could be a magazine. it could be anything it wants to. >> what is your role? you're not sure yet? you're not answering my question. >> visionary. >> what does that mean? >> i will walk around and try to inspire a vision for the future of the brand. >> what does that mean? i don't united states what that means. do you call people -- i don't understand what that means? >> do you call people up? >> that's why i'm a visionary leader and you're not. >> i actually make contacts. and i wonder if you were the owner of something i had, what your business was. >> here is what it is, we are going that you a lot of change in our society today and for a lot of people they are not sure
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how to make a context of the change and is it going to help them or hurt them and you look at it from the perspective of technology, technology is a critical part of that change. but there are many parts of change that are happening today. and i think that having a trusted guide like time magazine, having that in the right hands and given the leaders of that magazine, the support they need to do what they need to, do i think that is the most critical thing. >> you will give them more money? >> we will invest. >> invest heavily in journalism because you think it is important. this drags new politics now more than ever. >> i don't think so. i'm not a political person. i don't look like, act like, talk like, walk like and i have no interest in politics and i will never run for political office. you want to know why that is? >> i don't believe you but go ahead. >> because i believe that business is the most important platform for change. >> and jeff bezos has got noon the "washington post" and trump attacks him and your cover of
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time, you are going to get dragged into politics. as the owner. just the way jeff has. are you worried about that? i'm not worried about that because i'm not operationally involved in time, i'm not involved in politics, i'm not ready for political office. i want to provide a great business that provides value to society. that's what i'm doing with the sales force. >> you will get dragged in. >> and the sales force, too. >> what are you going to do if trump starts tweeting at you, for example, like he does with bezos. >> that hasn't happened. >> not yet. >> i don't deal with hypotheticals. >> okay, all right. a plan of action? >> what's that? i'm calling you first. >> okay, all right. i would say duck, is what i would say. >> and give me the three big predictions for tech and the politics over the next two years will tech be regulated, will trump win in 2020. >> i don't know. i'm not a political analyst. >> what about the regulation?
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>> i've been saying this for a while. you look at what is going on with brands like facebook, facebook is the new cigarette, it is addictive, it is not good for you, there are people who are trying to get you to use it that you don't understand what is going on. the government needs to step. in the government needs to know what is happening. and we had a child scream that cues me to say facebook for kid, they are using the techniques and technologies that they use to attract you to attract your children. the government has to step in. that's the cue for the government. >> what should the government do? >> i think this is the role of government, to protect us. nand times of severe change. and you know, they did that with the cigarette industry. they need to do that with the -- technology industry. >> cigarettes, a strong comparison. >> it is a right comparison. >> cigarettes kill you. >> this is the right comparison that we can see that facebook can have very serious effects on society, the same way that cigarettes can. and i've been saying this, i think i said it at the world economic forum in davos in
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january for the first time and when i said it, everybody was like, this can't be true and here we are just nine, ten, 11 months later and people are saying oh, i guess this is true and now we actually have senators calling for regulation, warner, and others. >> yes. they talk about it a lot. >> they're absolutely right. and i think you will have more of that. and because there are far-reaching aspects of the new technology that most people still don't really understand. >> so you want to make an impact. if you don't want to run, and you absolutely don't run for office. mayor of san francisco -- >> i will never run for
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political office. >> you never will. >> i never will. >> do you have any candidates you're backing for 2020? >> no. >> what about a tech -- >> i think you would be very good. i think it would be great if we had a woman president. it would be fantastic. i think you're pioneering. >> no thank you, no thank you. >> you would be a great politician. >> no, thank you. i will not be president at least. maybe something else. >> all right. well see if we can get you in something else. what position would you like? queen of the world. >> queen of the world, we will get you on the ballot for that. >> should other business ceos run though? how do you think the trump experiment has gone? >> i think it really depends on the person. you know, and somebody, first of all, is going to have to have a deep desire to be president. there aren't that many people who want to be president, number one. number two is what about their values? you know, this is an important country, and this country stands for something in the world. we're very different than every other country. i have been to almost every country, significant country on the planet. so what is it that our country does that others do not? we're so special and unique, in our approach to freedom, our approach to liberty, our approach to equality, you know, these are things that are so important that we need to be preserved and that, you know, who is the president, has to continue to show the difference from the united states and every other country.
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>> if you were president, what's the first thing you would do? >> if i was president, what is the first thing i would do? i would radically invest in our public education system. i think that we have a tremendous need today to look at 3.5 million public schoolteachers who are on average making about $35,000 a year, and say we're behind you, we support you, we love you, thank you for everything you're doing for our children, and we are going to double your salary right now. because i don't know why our public schoolteachers are not the highest paid employees in our country. >> that sounds like a platform for running, mark. >> well, i am just telling you exactly what i would do. i don't have a platform. i am not running. please do, and you will give me the first interview and we will lawn temperature right now and then rappel off the side of the building. >> if you are going to run, i want to be the first one that you call. >> you will not be. >> all right, thank you so much. >> thank you. >> all right, thank you so much. >> thank you i'm going to say that was amazing but what stood out to me, he talked about love, he talked about love, he talked about love.
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and that, his business formula, because this is at a time when zuckerberg is saying i'm going after leakers an firing them. those are two different marks. >> absolutely. two different people. and mark is hopefully the way tech is going to talk going forward. that's it for this edition of "revolution." thanks for joining us. have a great night. ion. thanks for joining us. have a great night you have to be aware of your surroundings because you just never know. >> it started with a frightening horror flick from the '80s. >> the movie is we're going to take some women into the woods and then poof, they're going to be hunted down. >> then decades later, something truly frightening. it it was happening for real. a strange vanishing in the forest. >> immediately we knew something was wrong.

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