tv The Beat With Ari Melber MSNBC January 24, 2019 3:00pm-4:00pm PST
that's stunning. >> jonathan, zer li na, thank you all. thank you for wearing the time. it's a great day. very well done. my grandmother will be very happy. she thinks everybody should be wearing a tie on tv. i will be back tomorrow with more tie tips. a quick plug, i am joining trevor noah on the "daily show." you don't know, it could be tend of my career. "the beat" with is coming up. we have a report that bipartisan talks to try to reopen the government. you are looking at the split screen reality. a dramatic statement, more republicans crossing over one by one to vote for what is a democratic bill that would reopen the government. both the so-called trump bill and this democratic bill didn't get enough votes to move forward. you can see, they do have something close to over 50 votes. trump says, he would entertain
now a bipartisan bill with some down payment on the wall. democrats say that's not going to happen. then this is why we're not seeing a cave what some are calling a semi cave. trump now leaving the door opened anew to supporting something is that he call that's reasonable agreement. reasonable agreement . >> i wouldn't be happy with it. if they come to a reasonable agreement, i would support it. i have other alternatives, if i have to. >> let's get right to it. you jumped into early up on the show as we say because of the developing news, because of the not only the votes, but the president saying there, well, maybe something reasonable if both side agree with that wall funding. you know this much better than i do, senator. if i remember correctly, that is what you all achieved on a bipartisan basis and he said no last time and shut the government down. do you view this president tonight as tip toeing back towards the opening deal you all
gave him? >> we've seen this play before. we were talking about da car, he said, bring me a reasonable compromise, bipartisan, i'll sign it. and he didn't. of course, another reason thing just as you mentioned was the vote we took to keep government running in december. then he gets yelled at by some people on fox news and suddenly he reanythinigs. the president is someone that changes his mind on the drop of a hat. whatever he considers reasonable is very changeable. so my thinking is thats with we vote on the bill, it should have been voted down. i'm glad that six republicans voted on it. this isn't a democratic bill. it was a bill to keep the government running that we all voted for in december. wow, six courageous democrats, republicans, said, we will maintain our consistency there. >> i appreciate what you are doing there, which is brigg some nuance to sort of fact check the
way we talk about these things in shorthand. i believe what you are helping us get into is the fact that that original thing wasn't as you say just quote/unquote democrat. that was a thing to fund the government by compromise. is that right? >> yes. yes. it already represented a compromise and, in fact, notice who is running the senate, it's the republicans. so obviously, that was a republican-sponsored bill that we all voted for in december to keep government running. now, my hope was with the failure of these two bills that have set the stage and an environment for a bipartisan effort to come one a compromise which apparently the president already shot down, but i think that these discussions should continue, because what it points out to me, ari, is you can't talk sense to someone who makes no sense. >> that would be the president. therefore, congress should do its job. we are a separate branch of government and have been calling on mitch mcconnell to step up and not continue to be in hiding or cow tailing to the
president's whims by just bringing forth the president's bill. so i think that we should vote on whatever compromise that can be achieved by the folks who are meeting to do that. of course, that has to include speaker pelosi and then we pass these bills and then it goes to the president and he, if he vetos it, then, we have a option off being able override it at that point. >> you are speaking, we talked a little about trump. you are saying he is not so reasonable. i want to get your views as well. then i want to understand -- >> it's on mitch. >> what did you say? >> it's on mitch mcconnell to do his job. >> let's get into that part, before i let you go, michael cohen in a couple minutes for our viewers. as we play that, i want to play more sound from the snaft. from a distance, people say, well, okay, it seems like nothing is happening. we just put up on the screen what you are speaking to, what i am about to play suggests the temperature is rising and it is
moving maybe one at a time. we are moving some republicans, some in the president's party, here with senator bennett today. >> how ludicrous it is that this government is shut down over a promise the president of the united states couldn't keep. this is a joke. this government should be opened. we can debate whatever it is we want to debate. >> what is the heat we are seeing inside the senate and is it getting to some of these republicans that could actually as you say put real pressure with a bill on the president's desk? >> i think most of us live in the real world where people need their paychecks to pay their bills and keep a roof over their heads and put it on the table. that's where most people live. but obviously not our commerce secretary, why can't we go out and get a loan or it was this administration has an unlimited capacity in their lack of
empathy. so the president is not somebody we can negotiate with. because for once, he's a hostage taking amoral person who makes no distinction between right or wrong. so i think that the compromise must be forged at the legislative level. that's congressional. and we should pass these bills to get the government running and then, then we can have all kind of discussions about border security, which we all support, by the way. and the other things that the president wants. i think the reason that he took hostages is, he cannot make a valid argument for a multi-billion dollar wall, because you know the $5.7 is only a down payment. he can't justify that wall on its own. on its merit. so he needs to take 800,000 people and contractors hostage. that's who we are dealing with, with the president of the united states. an amoral, lying person whose mind is changed, he returns as a
total wimp. >> it sounds like yare saying donald trump is stuck between anne coulter and nancy pelosi. folks can see what that means. he seems to be moving toward nancy pelosi. thank you, senator. as promised, i turn to the other top story in our newscast. the breaking news of the senate formally subpoenaing michael cohen today. they're looking at a date, february 12th. three weeks before he is supposed to return to prison for a sentence. cohen says he backed off the voluntary testimony because trump was threatening his family. a source saying cohen views this pressure as quote lacking compassion and ignoring cohen's concern and fear for his family's safety. beyond that leak about the subpoena. on the record, cohen's legal adviser, lanny davis suggesting they don't want to fight the entire subpoena, but there may
be debates over how they comply, what comes next. now the timing is the story here. the republican senate chair has said the whole goal is to get cohen to testify with that date before going to prison, because he notes, quote, it's very difficult to interview people in jail. that's not just rhetoric. there is actually some bipartisan agreement on cohen's potential testimony right now. i can report for you tonight because you have leaders in both parties saying, look, he's got to face congress, regardless of jail. here is the democratic chair elijah cummings. >> we're going to get him -- >> whatever we have to do to get him here, we're going to do it. >> president trump, meanwhile, not the only one attacking cohen. another trump aide caught up in this same probe, michael caputo argued right here hat the table last night, if cohen tess, he would quote just lie again. . >> michael cohen is an inventor
of liar. it's been proven so. he has been found guilty of lying. he will continue to lie and say whatever he needs to, to cut his sentence down as far as possible. >> i am joined now by phone by lanny davis, michael cohen also legal adviser, who has been on this show before. televising graphs on where we were headed. lanny, have you seen michael in person today? how is he doing? will he testify? and what is important in your view about what's come out? >> yes. i have seen him. he is in considerable pain and difficulty because of his recent surgery. i put out a statement that, of course, a subpoena will be complied with, but the terms and dates and details a of subpoena as everybody knows, are subject to reasonable discussions. buff we have sent the senate intelligence committee and the house intelligence committee that wants mr. cohen to come in.
i have to add that, we greatly respect and appreciate mr. cummings and wanted to do that public testimony on february 7th. and the highest priority whereas to do that testimony and i know what he would have said. but, donald trump and rudy guiliani, i could talk about mr. guiliani first, he doesn't have the arguably view of a pvt.. he committed a crime as far as i'm concerned, the indictable crime by threatening and impugning a man's family as a way of getting into the man's brain. we've seen that in movies in "godfather 2" how you can silently threaten somebody. it's a mock tactic that mr. schiff, the intelligence committee and mr. cummings put out in a public statement last night. so there is genuine fear in the cohen family. >> lanny, i understand you are saying that with the full
genuine view and that's why i asked if you were with mr. cohen today. you are describing what you are seeing. i don't quibble with that. you mentioned "godfather 2." that's a situation where you have also congressional hearings and you have a star witness' family member brought into the hearings. but as you know, mr. davis the clear implication in "godfather 2" was the threat of violence or murder. here the threat appears to be, as i understand your allegation of the crime that donald trump would use investigative resources to target members of mr. cohen's family or are you alleging something beyond that? >> no, i'm saying what everybody knows is that there are millions of people in this country with access to firearms who engage if violence and here violent words and violent threats, that we saw in charlottesville and we know that these things can happen. i'm not accusing donald trump of physically threatening.
but in "godfather 2" when angelo was about to tell the senate about michael core leone or the murder, they brought up mr. santangelo's brother from sicily. all he did was sit in the back of the room and the silence was not to be threatened. >> so i want to make sure i understand. you mentioned, yes, we are talking, i guess it's 2019 and this is how these interviews go. we are talking god father 2 in the back of the hearing room. we are talking charlottesville as you mentioned an individual was murdered, according to authorities. and you are saying that you think the word of the president in public would encourage potential village laegilantevig violence or something more beyond what donald trump said in the fox interview, et cetera, about cohen's family? >> well, first of all, i'm describing the emotional thoughts of a father-in-law from ukraine has been here for 45
years and is called out by rudy guiliani as having links to organized crime, because he's from ukraine. that's mr. trump's lawyer, who has no immunity. that's witness tampering on its face. secondly, have you mr. trump, president of the united states, calling michael cohen a rat. that's a mob term for somebody who tells the truth to the government. and he praises people who refuses to offer it. and the message being sent, at least according to the family members is theater. [ inaudible ] and whether there should be fear or not be fear, ki tell you, from personal knowledge, that the father-in-law of michael is the father of his wife, his wife has been directly called out by the president of the united states as if she's a criminal. she's been named in two of his tweets. they are fearful. he is fear. his parents are fearful. so that is what is going on. >> understood. i just wanted to pin down,
lanny, exactly the nature of what you are saying. i understandist. i have a congressman who will join this conversation with you. he, of course, on the judiciary intelligence committees. congressman, thank you for joining me. i want to put one more question with mr. davis with me, listening to our audience. lanny, when you say a subpoena can be complied with, but you will work out the details. are you able to tonight commit on the record to mr. cohen testifying to congress before he goes to jail? or are you not ready to commit to that? >> i'm not ready to commit to that. because i haven't had any chance to talk to mr. cohen about his medical condition and other issues that he's worried about. i am authorized to say that a subpoena is very serious and mr. cohen respects the senate intelligence committee. he has already owned up to the fact that he lied about one issue, to conform history to what he understood mr. trump
wanted him to say. and that was a lie. and he's owned up to it. he's going to prison because of it. and the same thing in the house. but i can't tonight commit to anything before we engage if some reasonable conversations. i'm not a criminal defense lawyer. so it will have to be another lawyer that will be joining me. >> unstood. stay with me, lanny. congressman, we turn to you. is that good enough or in the view of the house does the subpoena mean within a reasonable time and before this individual reports to incarceration? >> well, subpoena means a spvenlt i'll leave that to mr. schiff and mr. cummings. but if i can talk to mr. cohen, i would talk to him just like i would talk to any gang witness that i worked with as a prosecutor. i would say, mr. cohen, you have already done the hard part. you've broken away from the mob. you've told the truth. you've come clean, don't allow this bully of a president to get his way. he is a paper tiger. and you will be protected by
special counsel, congress, i know would do everything it could to make accommodations, but the best thing you can do is to just tell the truth and stand up once and for all from this bully. >> what do you think congressman, i know you were listening in what mr. davis' advisers just said, there is a view, what he described as genuine fear not only of meddling or investigative techniques by the president, richard nixon zo ggot in troublr that issue of power. someone might hear his words and act violently, does that concern you or sit on the pail tonight? >> it's a concern, it would be more legitimate if the democrats did not control the house of representatives. the days of mob rule are over. we are no longer powerless, we are able to stop this type of tampering, this obstruction and
finally hold the president accountable. i know for me, it's hard, too, i have as to remind myself. hey, we don't have to go to the streets to protest this stuff. we can do the work on the inside and be the balance of power against the abuse of power. >> on the other side i want to play for both of you congressman nunez' alternative of this lanny, you are here by phone, i want to give you if benefit of the response. >> i want to thank the congressman. he is not only right about the power of truth and the bravery that mr. cohen has shown starting on july 2nd in his first interview with mr. stephanopoulos. he is dedicated to the truth and what i know that he knows is the reason why donald trump and rudy guiliani and the white house are so desperate to try to block him from telling the truth and attacking his father-in-law and his wife, shows desperation.
i i also want to thank the congressman for corruptly saying the way bullies, especially a bully on the bully pulpit, soiling the presidency by using twitter to call out a man's family, something that should be a purple bipartisan moment for our country. pro or anti-trump family is out of bounds, except for one person in the oval office and his lawyer who seems mentally unbalanced to me at times, who calls america the ukraine and says he has connections to organized crime. this is a former prosecutor. i'd like to thank the congressman for pointing out. you only emboldened that they can't get away with it. >> what do you mean by calling rudy guiliani quote mentally unbalanced? >> i believe he is mentally unbalanced by the words that he utters. if you watched him on a rival network on this past sunday, where he links a man is 45 years in this country an elderly
gentleman, but without any evidence whatsoever and says he has links to organized crime because he comes from the ukraine and mr. president trump because the united states alludes to him having legal problems, without telling anything further about what that country -- >> i understand how serious this is. >> his mental stability. >> you are making quite an allegation about what effectively is your opposing counsel, you don't sister any evidence? >> i'm only giving you my personal reaction to watching his performance on tv. i don't need to offer other examples, but what i saw on sunday did not strike me as mental stability. that's my impression. >> let me play as promised a republican congressman's view of this, congressman swallow, you know congressman nunez, our viewers know how he's approached his role.
let me dismiss mr. cohen's concerns, take a look. >> i would love to have cohen if congress answering some of these tough questions. whether, you know, saying that he's getting threatened, seals pretty silly to me. we. ed cohc -- we wanted cohen to c in. >> that doesn't make sense he is being threatened. >> congress. >> we had michael cohen testify before our committee. when we wanted to follow up on his accounts of what happened, we knew he was untruthful at the time. we were blocked at every single step. we could have corroborated or contradicted mr. cohen when mr. nunez was a chairperson. he didn't do that. i think part of the torino voters gave us pa majority in addition to health care and jobs is about ending the corruption in washington and having again a balance of power against these abuses. so we will answer these questions. >> congressman eric swalwell
with a view from the hill. congressman lanny davis, i appreciate it. what i will do right now is turn right to a federal prosecutor. msnbc analyst, joyce vance. good to see you. >> nice to be here. >> you have been a beat viewer along with our audience watching all of that. >> in the room where it happens. >> in the room where it happens, as hamilton would say. what do you make of what we just heard there? >> you know, there is so much to unpack here. but i focused on a phrase that lanny davis would use. he talked about michael cohen and referred back and said michael did what he understood the president wanted him to do. and that takes us a little bit back to the core of the testimony that we thought for a while we would get to hear cohen give in front of the house. it looks like he may now give that testimony in front of the senate. but they tend to have closed door proceedings. i don't think that we'll publicly see any testimony that he gives on the senate side. but this is a very important question.
we got caught up in the buzzfeed controversy, which was about whether or not the president had directly ordered cohen to lie on the hymn. now we have mr. davis walking that back a little bit. maybe not walking it back, maybe saying what was always said and tacoen was doing what he understood trump wanted him to do and legally that, too, would be a crime. i thought that was an interesting comment. >> very notable. and also the big question of as you put it, whether you will speak in public. in michael cohen's case the prison deadline looms lampblth last night on the show we had several other mueller witnesses. i put this to them, this question about whether cohen should step up and do this. take a look at their responses. >> do you think in your opinion that he should step up and speak to congress before he goes to jail? >> i really don't sister any opinion on it. >> i think he should. >> i really couldn't care less. i'd like him to go to jail as soon as possible and stay there
a long time. >> the more opened, the better. >> that's view of others who have tangled with this. did you hear lanny davis on the "the beat" to decide this will get done or not. >> i think it was unequivocal. he pointed out he was a criminal defense lawyer. if you are a prosecutor, you don't want cohen to testify. you never like to see someone you might have as to put on the witness stand in a trial of your own giving testimony in another forum, particularly here, a risky one. >> are you suggesting this may be one of the only issues that donald trump and bob mueller agree on in this probe tonight? >> i think we might have found the core agreement. >> the overlap is narrow. it involves trump not having to have the world see whatever it is, because we don't actually know whatever it is michael cohen would say? >> you know, that's right. ultimately, mueller will win here. this testimony will come out in one form or another, maybe when
mueller issues his report. as you know as a lawyer, trying to delay a witness, using intimidation is a crime. >> right. >> that goes back to the heart of this and some of what i was surprised here of what lanny said in his allegations about the fear and things they are woishd about. u.s. attorney joyce vance, thank you for being here. >> thanks for having me. we have more on that live interview with four different mueller witnesses and their contacts with mueller's investigators. >> what kind of questions were they asked at trump tower moscow? >> russian intelligence, would you still want to do the meetings with them? >> we'll show you the answers about trump's long-time associate roger stone. >> roger in his broadcast are defamatory. >> i think he's steering towards a perjury charge. >> i think you are putting your old friend in danger. >> well, he put us all in danger. the reason the three of us are in there essentially is because
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>> i'm making a decision between buying medicine or groceries, am i going to be able to take my kids' to the doctors. >> even though they approved to have back pay, that doesn't meet the bills being paid. >> for somebody else to dictate how i will pass the meal is a nightmare. i'm angry about that. >> it's becoming a strain for everyone contractor everybody that we're not getting our paid. we're upholding our parts going to work today. >> it needs to shop today. we need to stop playing with people's lives. >> those are all kind of ways to respond. here's one way you may not want to respond. watch become nair commerce secretary under donald trump give out some free advice. >> mr. secretary, there are reports that there are some federal workers who are going to homeless shelters to get food. >> well, i know they are. and i don't really understand why. the 30 days of pay that some people will be out is no real
reason why they shouldn't be able to get a loan against it. >> i am joined by lisa menendez, contributing editor at bus him. wow. >> wow. when you know that about one in every three government workers is living pay check to paycheck and as of tomorrow will likely have gone without two paychecks, it's not just the economic impact that that has for them right now in this moment. some of the survival mechanisms we talked act people having to go to food pantrys to get food. people are carrying heavier loads on their credit cards that are rolling over. they're deferring their mortgage payments. those are economic decisions that don't let up once the shutdown is over. those have long-term impact on these people. i think there is an attitude nal question here, right? we did original polling asking people if they had been impacted. there are a small percentage of americans that felt they were personally impacted. comments resonate with a much larger cross section of americans who say do you know
what the average american's life is like? >> yeah. take a look at senators man shchin and sno senator pelosi on the entire trump mindset. >> anybody at the top of the food chain is totally tone deaf, if that's where they are. if they have been out of touch with reality that long. i have been all over west virginia. people are hurting. >> he doesn't understand why they have to do that. this is a let them eat cake kind of attitude or call four father for money. thousands of people are set to miss a second paycheck tomorrow. >> i think all of this pressure is part of why you see republicans support beginning to fracture. it's why you have such republican senators voting for this democratic proposal. it's also why you have moderate democrats calling on pelosi to come to the table to negotiate. i think if you are an optimistic person, you hope that that bipartisan group of senators right now is working on some type of plan to reopen the government for three weeks. >> briefly, if the senate just
operated with majority floor votes, there would be a bill going to the white house tonight. >> yet, here we are. i think that's a part of why you are seeing this frustration rise. the actual reality of this is opened. >> we always appreciate your insight. we are turning mou to tnow mueller probe. those four witnesses getting reaction from their good friend roger stone. i'll explain it out when we are back in just 30 seconds. 30 sec. ( ♪ ) the united states postal service makes more e-commerce deliveries to homes than anyone else in the country. make ice.d be mad at tech that's unnecessarily complicated. but you're not, because you have e*trade, which isn't complicated. their tools make trading quicker and simpler so you can take on the markets with confidence. don't get mad. get e*trade.
we ul hear a lot about the mueller probe, but practically nothing directly on the record from people inside it. mueller doesn't leak. you know that. most of the witnesses don't leak. mueller tells those witnesses to avoid the press. something we actually heard last night from one of those witnesses. in fact, i got to interview four russia witness,s a rare joint discussion to learn first hand how the mueller team operates. what they ask, how they apply pressure and clues to where the probe is headed. so right now we will get into it with a msnbc contributor, many of you reacted as well, the interview was trending on twitter. it drove over 100,000 comments on the internet. some of you called it interesting, fascinating. there was reaction from a man that witnesses said mueller's team kept asking about. former trump adviser roger stone and he posted his own message on instagram attacking his former
allies, some nun, jerome corsi, he referred to them as judist one and two. he added hashtag quote ari melber sucks. here is part of what he was reacting to. >> i'm saying roggener his broadcast has been defamatory. i want it stopped. >> i think roger says the same thing about you. i have known roger 30 years. i am not buying your george walk act on this a lot of things you say about roger i think are steering him toward a perjury charge. i also think that it's really hurting his reputation and i really believe that, you know the things you said about wikileaks don't add up. >> you are saying, your view is dr. coursey here at the table is the informational aggress ore and actually setting up roger? >> i'm sorry, dr. corsi. i believe you are being pushed into it by mueller. i don't agree what you are saying about roger.
i think you are putting your old friend in danger. >> you put all of us in danger, by the way. >> what did you think? what did you learn? >> i watched it last night, ari. i watched special counsel melber ask him all questions for 40 minutes. i watched it again today. it was absolutely compelling televising vision. and i love the part where they started to turn on each other. >> hmm. >> i remember at one point, i think it was caputo saying mueller told him not to speak to the media. he was telling him he had lost his first amendment rights. and you know, knowing you, i know you were thinking of a line from drake, which is a wise man once said nothing at all. and the more these guys talk, the more these guys talk the more troubled they seem to get each other. there was a point with carter page last night, ari, where you were trying to simply ask him if he knew everything then, that he knows now. would he still have done it?
and i thought you were going to have to pull a knife on him to get him to give you a straight answer? >> well, i think we have that. i think we can pull it, it's quite an exchange because of is inability to initially address the fact that it's a bad idea to meet with russian spies, if you know they're russian spies. let's take a look. >> in 2013, you met with people that were quote charged with being undeclared officers in russia's foreign intelligence service. knowing that now, would you still want to deal with those people? >> they were a couple of diplomats. they are, according to united states, russian intelligence. would you still want to do the meetings with them? >> well, listen, we set here in new york city tonight, the home of the united nations. there are diplomats from around the world. >> that's a defense. i will go one more time with you. i will have to tell the audience, he's not answering the question. i'd rather you did answer it. now that you know, though, would you take a meeting like that by
someone identified as russian intel? >> they were not identified at the time. >> if known. >> obviously, if i knew they were doing some things behind the scenes, i never would have met with them. but i didn't know that. >> right. >> mike. >> that exchange was worth the price of admission. ari, i lived in new york city for like 40 years. this notion because the united nations in there, you eventually will run into a russian diplomat. he must have been hanging out at different places than i was from the time i showed up in new york in the late '70s. >> there is a good bar downtown called -- in new york called pravda. >> that might be a place. i don't think it's what happens up and down manhattan. it's a big city. the other thing we learned a lot. because as i mentioned in the introduction, some viewers said, well, why are we even doing this? one reason is rerarely get to compare on the record
accountable the experience. there were multiple mueller prosecutors. here they were discussing one za lynn ski each of them were interviewed by. take a look. >> it's funny. when i was talking to jerome outside, were talking about aaron salenski. >> all mere prosecutor. >> we have different views of him. >> i think salinski was basically a thug. his old techniques, yawning, asking rapid fire questions. i went in to cooperate. i did not expect to be treated like a criminal from i had a different experience with him. i think he's three different people. >> we had a negative view, a more le nit mgitimate view. >> i'm in the middle. i think aaron was winding up. he wasn't a pleasant person. i don't expect that to be the case with a special counsel.
>> three trump aides there with three different views how the mueller team gets to where it wants to go. as on observer of the probe, what does that indicate to you of the way mueller has his folks doing their job? >> i have a feel tag mr mr. salinski didn't act like a thug, but i can imagine him rolling his eyes as he listened to some of these guys talk to him. i keep coming back to one thing with robert mueller and we can all go broke thinking that we know what he knows. and we could try to read the tea leaves and try to figure out, well, if he asked these guys these questions, where is he going? no, the only guy who knows that is robert mueller. >> yeah. that's well put. you kicked us off with drake. when it comes to following all these clues, i think of drake. we'll keep dock it until it gets old. or maybe it never gets old. and that's just how it goes. happy to have you along for the ride.
>> wait. wait. wait. wait a minute. >> go ahead. >> no, wait a minute. i got one more for. >> you go ahead. i said go ahead. i'm not going to say it twice. >> dmx never get involved with something so much that it blinds you. >> hmm. hmm. dmx also said, are -- wolf wolf wolf, although he actually barked. but that's farther than i can go on the broadcast. mike, you always push us. on "the beat," we believe in pushing. coming up, a man that knows donald trump says trump looks awed over the deal. tony schwartz right here right now. e deal tony schwartz right here right now. sometimes, bipolar i disorder can make you feel like you have no limits. but mania, such as unusual changes in your mood, activity or energy levels, can leave you on...
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shutdown compromise, losing his state of the union, and its typical audience of about 43 million people. >> i could have gone to a big auditorium and gotten 25,000 people in one day and you have been there many times, but i think that would be very disrespectful to the state of the union. so what she said i thought was actually reasonable. we'll have the state of the union when the shutdown is over. >> you hear that? donald trump differentially calling pelosi's decision reasonable. he also referred to it as her prerogative. in a moment we will get it with tony schwartz, he says today he has never seen trump so utterly flummoxed and outgunned as he is by fancy pelosi. he seems both awed and cowed by her. schwartz argues trump under estimated her as a leader and trump would be violating one of his claimed pieces of negotiating advice, understand your opponent. >> negotiation is a very, very
delicate part. sometimes have you to be tough. sometimes have you to be as sweet as pie. you never know. it depends on who are you dealing with. the big thing in negotiation is to try and figure out your opponent otherwise, you are going to look like an idiot and lose big. >> truer words? >> truer words. he looks like an idiot. >> what is it about her and her strategy three weeks in that has reminded anyone whoever said, gosh, should she still be speaker? she seems to have a real way to deal with him. >> yeah. i mean, she's suddenly gone from being this most hated person in her previous incarnation as speaker to being this celebrity and charismatic leader. i don't think she shifted. i don't think she actually even necessarily has a particular strategy with trump. i think she's being herself,
which is, she's tough. she's tough with civility. she's tough with decorum. she's a way that i think trump looks at and goes, i literally can't do anything to move this person. >> well, as they say in office space, do you remember that movie? >> i do. >> i'm going to go ahead and disagree with you there. i think speaker pelosi would never try to cancel george w. bush's state of the union, because no matter how diametrically opposed they were on foreign policy, on civil rights, on the environment, there was still a feeling that you were working within some framework of washington. and so for all those diametric, zero to 100 on iraq, there would still be that respect. she is saying something that is quite popular with her base and resistance. i think we are seeing more and more across parts of the america. well, this guy comes in and breaks everything, don't you have to change up your response
to him? >> yeah. i think that what's consistent with who she has always been, is that she is strategic and careful and deliberate and still respectful. she continues to actually. the act, itself, you might say, is disrespectful, but the way if which she has done it, i think, is consistent with what you would expect from her. >> i mean, what i think you are getting at is she is saying if you were going to degrade the entire government. you don't get to do this thing. right? but when you step back up to being responsible, you can still have your state of the union. >> i'm using the rules -- i'm using the rules and my leverage to accomplish the outcome i want. i'm not financial to scream at you. i'm not going to trade words with you. i'm not going to back down from you. look. this is what leadership is about. it's about being able to balance
these opposites, some sort of confidence and humility of courage, but also prudence. >> so why did he violate one of the rules that you go through? did he used to follow those rules more and now -- >> i'm speaking of her there. >> going back to him saying understand your opponent he doesn't seem to know what to do with her yet. >> no, i think in the face of, look, number one, bought with a bullet, trump is a bully. so he's spent his entire life bullying and it has usually worked. it is clear to him that he can't bully her. and it's also she's a much older person with enormous experience. it's tough to do it in a way that doesn't backfire on you. so i think he's, he's got her. i mean, she's got him, sorry. but really the issue here is underneath this is, are you
someone who is elder direse out directdirec-- outer directed or inner directed. outer means are you outer and making your choices based on that feedback you are getting from the outside world. inner directed means you have a true north inside. have you actually a set of values that are immutable. >> that you stand by. and i do think that pelosi has a consistent record of suggest that she does stand for something and she knows that when she wants to make a choice, she can look inside. she can sense what she feels and act on it. trump has no idea. he's like tree proceeding in the wind with no roots. so the wind comes this way and trump go es this way. the wind comes this way. he goes this way. he knows he is up against one tall tree two a lot of roots. she may be short in height, but she is tall in stature. >> hmm. i feel like we got into almost a
dr. seuus place at the end. and i liked it. >> yeah. >> i was well read on the lorax to know more than that. it's on >> i don't get it. >> that's dr. seuss too. you will be apparent and know that at some point. >> what about "the giving tree". >> that's a good one. >> one in the i won't do is strain to are far from references to befudal against. my producer is saying we've but to go. are we high fiving? thank you for being here. state of mind on "the beat." now they're following the money. " now they're following the money.
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will bring, butted i tell you it looks busy. manafort back in jail. and we'll talk politics with washington governor, jay insl erbs e. talk about whether he may run for president. but don't go anywhere. "hardball" is up next. let them eat cake. let's play "hardball." ♪ good evening. i'm chris matthews liecve in washington with the government shutdown cutting into the lives of 800,000 federal workers forcing them to miss their second paycheck. at least oned a stragz seems to be living -- wilbur ross offered meager compassion for the inflicted workers