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tv   MSNBC Live With Stephanie Ruhle  MSNBC  January 25, 2019 6:00am-7:00am PST

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s sims. that book is called "team of vipers." on wednesday, howard shultz will join us. he may have 2020 presidential aspirations. we'll ask him about that and a lot more. for now, we'll send it to hallie jackson to pick up our coverage. >> good thing there's nothing to talk about today, appreciate that. i'm in for stephanie ruhle who's on assignment. we start with that breaking news. former trump adviser roger stone now in federal custody. not a surprise. it is significant. here's the deal. early this morning, stone was arrested by the fbi at home in florida. he'll appear in court in fort ladder dale in two hours from now. cameras are not allowed in court but you can see we've got live coverage surrounding that building. stone faces seven criminal charges stemming from the mueller investigation including false statements, witness tampering and obstruction. the special counsel says stone lied about what he told congress. about his interactions with the trump campaign and wikileaks and
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robert mueller has receipts, text messages, to prove it. stone has denied he ever passed alock any information to the trump campaign about wikileaks. here's what the indictment says. during the summer of 2016, stone spoke to senior campaign officials about organization one, which we believe to be the trump campaign and information you might have had that would be damaging. stone was contacted by senior campaign officials to inquire about future releases by organization one wikileaks. we're getting several pieces of breaking news. a new response from the white house press secretary. we now have a new response from roger stone's attorney. forgive me for looking at my e-mail here but this just popped in from our team. he now says that there was no need to have the fbi show up with the s.w.a.t. team this morning. smith says that stone has been very public about where he was and what he was doing.
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adding that there were no charges of russian collusion. these were charges they brought specifically he says to go against roger stone. smith promises that stone will fight vigorously. we'll get the response from team trump. julia ainsley covers national security and justice for nbc news. nbc news justice correspondent pete williams. white house reporter kristen welker as well. you got the trump campaign, you got roger stone. he's been out again and again publicly denying he passed information to wikileaks. this indictment showing that doesn't seem to be the case. >> the problem for him is he brought this on himself by publicly claiming early on he was in touch with assange and wiki leaks and that put him in the bull's-eye from the special prosecutor to find out if any of that was true.
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from then on, basically stone said, no, i wasn't -- the contact that he claimed he had intermediaries. what mueller's team says is he lied to congress about what he did trying to find out about damaging e-mails, working with these intermediaries and he also tried to egg them on. they say stone urged this friend of his to lie to congress too about any contacts he had. the charges don't say stone himself was in touch with wikileaks or the russianings. the court documents do say that stone was contacted by what they describe as a senior official in
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the trump campaign who was asking what else does wiki locks have and the documents say that then stone tried to prod wikileaks. perhaps most damaging, when he was called to testify before congress, stone urged him to plead the fifth and even evoked the name of the character from one of the godfather movies who lies to congress. this is what is known as an initial appearance. he'll be advised formally of the charges against him. and then the procedure will start to bring him back to washington, d.c. where these charges were filed. >> kristen, we just heard from press secretary sanders. fill us in on what she had to say. >> sarah sanders taking the stance that you would anticipate, trying to distance the president from these seven indictments today from his former campaign adviser.
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trying to distance the president from roger stone. take a listen to what she had to say just moments ago. >> my first reaction is real simple, this has nothing to do with the president and certainly nothing to do with the white house. this is something that has to do solely with that individual and not something that affect us here in the building. >> recently stone said he would never testify against president trump. mr. trump responding on twitter, nice to know some people still have guts. so that's one of the more recent comments we heard from the president on roger stone. he praised those releases by wikileaks, so the questions are going to continue to mount for the white house. this is a significant escalation we're learning about today. i just got a text message from the president's attorney saying
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there is a statement coming so we'll update you as soon as we get it. you and i have been working the phone since about 6:30 this morning when this broke. the white house taking the posture that this doesn't have anything to do with the president. of course the legal documents make that argument a lot more complicated, hallie. >> there's another piece of this indictment that sanders responded to. talking about how after the july 22nd, 2016 release of those stolen e-mails by wikileaks, contacting stone about any additional releases, and what other damaging information wikileaks had regarding the clinton campaign. a senior trump campaign official was directed to contact stone. who directed that official to get out and get in touch with roger stone? sanders was asked about this, right? >> was asked about that as well,
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and was -- put directly, was this candidate trump who directed this of roger stone. and she denied that that was the case but said, look, i haven't read through any of the documents here. bottom line, she is making the argument this has nothing to do with candidate trump, president trump. i believe we have that sound as well. let's take a listen. okay, we don't have that sound. but that's a summary of what she basically said. so i think that's what you can anticipate from sarah sanders throughout the day. at this time, no briefing schedule. not a big surprise. but that's going to be the critical question. who, in fact, gave that direction, hallie? >> as we now take a live look at fort ladder dat. lauderdale. roger stone arrested, indicted this morning, in this predawn raid by fbi officials. julia ainsley covers national security for us.
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i want to read from the indictment here. on the link between stone and the trump campaign. stone has denied connections, right. during the summer of 2016, stone spoke to senior campaign officials about wikileaks and information it might have had that would be damaging to the clinton campaign. stone was contacted by senior campaign officials to inquire about future releases p s by wikileaks. based on this indictment, julia, it sounds like the campaign was actively looking for information from wikileaks, from roger stone. >> that's what it looks like. as you can see from the posturing from the white house already, they're distancing themselves from roger stone. but baked into this indictment are details that would counter that argument. not only was he in touch once, he was in touch multiple times. and he was told to stay in contact about future coordination. as we know, robert mueller's office has made the connections
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between wikileaks and the russian government in their coordination to get those e-mails from the democratic national committee that would be so damaging to hillary clinton. i want to dig into that statement from roger stone's attorney that you read earlier. where he says all of the things he lied about were immaterial to the spoke of the investigation. first saying he wasn't lying and he just didn't recall it. the things he didn't recall were immaterial. now that we can see exactly what robert mueller's team was trying to get into and how he's connecting these dots, it's very hard to say that's immaterial. when you're talking about senior officials on the campaign being in touch with roger stone. and as he said, he said he didn't have any e-mails or documents when he testified for the house permanent committee on intelligence. when, in fact, he did have that. he had all of that in his possession and it would connect the dots. this is roger stone who has pledged his loyalty and allegiance to trump.
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you can see how young they both were in those pictures. it seems that allegiance is continuing. the big question i have reading all of this is why did he continue to withhold and why have other witnesses and others charging this probe also continued to lie and obstruct justice. >> pete williams, can you put into play english, explain why this is so significant today. >> well, it's just another piece of the puzzle. remember what mueller has claimed here. that russians were the ones who hacked the e-mails from the clinton campaign and the dnc. there's no allegation in these court documents that anyone in the trump campaign or even roger stone was in touch with the russians or was meddling with the russians. but there is an indication they were trying to get wikileaks to cough up more, anything that could be damaging to hillary
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collisi clinton. he's another potential witness for mueller. another person that undoubtedly the mueller team will try to get him to persuade, to talk to him more, perhaps in exchange for a reduced sentence as they have with all the other people they have in this case. >> thank you for coming on. julia ainsley, kristen welker, appreciate that. you're looking at a live shot from our local affiliate of roger stone's house. we expect that given this court appearance is set for 11:00 eastern, which is an hour and 15 minutes from now, we expect we will see stone heading to the courthouse. we're going to keep an eye on that. we want to bring in now phil rucker, white house bureau chief for "the washington post." doug burn, former federal prosecutor. elliott williams, former deputy assistant general at the justice department. yamiche alconder, pbs
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"newshour." cynthia oxney is a former federal prosecutor and msnbc legal analyst. we have an army, a cast of thousands here for this breaking news day. ellie, i'm going to start with you first. there's a lot to unpack here. let's start with that relationship between roger stone and the trump campaign. there's a significant passage on page nine of this indictment that says on or about october 7th, 2016, so a month before the election, wikileaks, organization one, released the first set of e-mails stolen from the clinton campaign chairman. an associate of the high-ranking trump campaign official september a text message to stone that read, well done. >> getting back to the thing, paragraph 12, this is the big one, says "was directed to." who's the individual who directs the individual to talk to roger stone? now, obviously, you know, it's someone pretty high up in the campaign. is it the president, is it paul
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manafort or whoever else? it's clear at the highest levels of the campaign someone is directing these interactions with roger stone. you made the point earlier that perhaps they're either going higher and higher up the chain or leaving bread crumbs, but significant information like this is being put in an indictment. it is legally significant, even if it's not today, at some point i think we're going to see some more of who these other individual are who are sort of directing, puppeteers behind this work. >> we've heard now from roger stone's attorney, as we heard julia ainsley explain, saying some of the information mueller sought was immaterial to the scope of the investigation. on "meet the press" last year roger stone talked with our own chuck todd and in very clear terms he contradicted pretty much everything we're seeing in this indictment and text messages and e-mails. >> there's no evidence i had advance knowledge of the contact or source of this material.
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i received nothing from wikileaks or from the russians. i passed nothing on to donald trump or the trump campaign. we've been through this ad nauseam. it is a wild goose chase. >> cynthia what do you make of that? >> he was lying. that's what i make of it. he was lying. and now we're going to see if he changes his tune. now that he's been arrested. a pretty heavy-handed arrest. ordinarily, a case like this, you wouldn't expect. a common criminal arrest. go in when it's dark, wake somebody up. mueller is trying to send a very serious message. that kind of actually surprises me. i would have thought you've been indict and you have a lawyer, please come in and report at 11:00 a.m. >> right. >> right. but that's not what they did. that's not just a mistake. they thought about that a lot. that's a reason they did it. the reason they did it is to send a message they're not fooling around.
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>> and i also -- >> go ahead. >> i was going to say, perhaps they think he might be a flight risk or there might be more evidence he's sitting on that he might destroy but i agree with cynthia. it's odd to just show up at someone's house at 4:00 in the morning in a case like this. >> phil rucker, your colleague at the "washington post" bob costa i believe is on the phone right now with giuliani. i know you can't really like put the camera next to bob so we can eavesdrop, but give us a sense of what you make from it is reaction from the white house and what we expect to hear from the president's legal team. >> we heard already from the white house and what it sounds like bob is hearing at this moment from rudy is an effort to distance the president from stone and to assert the president is not flustered by this, he's not nervous about what's happening in this mueller probe, and that even though mueller has now indictmented him and the fbi has arrested a close friend and political adviser to trump dating back many, manyiers in roger stone, that this should not be a worry for the president.
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you and i read the indictment. it is a worry for the president. in fact, there's the question of who directed the senior campaign official to get this information from roger stone who still needs to be answered. the white house i don't think is going to be easily sweep this away. it's very much another example of speed close to the president who has become ensnared in this russian probe. >> two events the president will hold. he'll talk with mayors about economic growth. he'll hold a roundtable. neither of those are open to the press. phil you know as well as i do, sometimes things change. so perhaps this might be an opportunity, if these spray, as they're called, open up, for us to hear from the president directly. i think you're right. question number two may be, as your colleagues reported in "the washington post," in november of last year, late-night phone calls between donald trump and
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roger stone have come under scrutiny with the special counsel. >> yes, that's right. even though stone left the trump campaign at the very beginning of the campaign, lee mained in the orbit and he at times had conversations with president trump throughout the campaign. he also was trying to win over trump's good graces. he was trying to make himself helpful to the campaign. he was commun dating to various campaign officials and trying to be a supportive outside adviser. he's part of the president's sort of broader political orbit. even though those in the white house are trying to distance him right now. in terms of the president's schedule, i would be surprised if the day ends today and we did foot hear from the president on this, he's going to want to say something. >> do me a favor, will you just stay close, as soon as bob gets off the phone, let us know, you know, we're dying to hear what rudy giuliani has to say about this one. when we talk about the president, when talk about his, as has been pointed out,
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long-standing relationship with roger stone this came to a head after michael cohen, right, pleaded guilty to committing crimes and stone said i will never testify against trump. the president tweeted about that. he said this statement was made about rog stone, essentially stating he will not be forced by a rogue and out of control prosecutor to make up lies and stories. nice to know some people still have guts. that's after calling stone a tough loyal guy in february to 16. >> michael cohen, said the same thing. i'll take a bullet for the president. and then he reversed course. all the legal experts will tell yowl. but i've been through that a million times in the last 30 years where i'll tell a prosecutor, look, i'll surrender tomorrow, you know, it sends a message. the point is, it's an open question as to he will change his mind. as pete williams said, how serious it is what they confront him with, what his exposure is.
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but in terms of the indictment, the really striking language, you guys covered it, is senior campaign officials. that's the first time we've heard anything specific to that level. seeing your campaign officials involved in this. and then as my colleagues pointed out, directed by someone else. that's the crux from this morning's indictment. >> robert mueller is a guy who is careful with his language. he is careful with his words. so the use of the phrasing was directed to, rather than simply contacted, seems significant. >> it's very significant. this whole time we've been trying to figure out whether or not the trump campaign was actively involved in this. was actually not just the president kind of saying oh, you know, russia if you're out there, can you look at hillary clinton's e-mails, but is there actual evidence they were trying to do that and what we have in this indictment when reading is a play by play of the trump
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campaign doing just that. when you have high-ranking officials and senior officials being directed, that means the food chain has to go higher and higher and i'm just reading of course bob costa from "the washington post" -- >> is he tweeting? >> and rudy giuliani tells him the president is save here and there's no evidence of anything other than famous statements. we know just reading this indictment that's simply not true. there's evidence here, if bob mueller's correct, there's evidence here that a presidential campaign was hoping and in contact with what is essentially a foreign adversary or organization working with a foreign adversary to try to get hacked information, illegal information. so rudy giuliani here is not correct in what he's telling costa at the "washington post." >> bob of course an msnbc contributor. who was on the phone with giuliani, essentially live tweeting parts of that conversation. as you heard phil rucker mention. interestingly, when bob costa asked the president's attorney about the section we've been discussing, giuliani declined to
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discuss that. he wanted to go back and read that again and then get back to you. we hope rudy giuliani does and calls our team back as well so we can get some information on this. how do you see that response here? >> a lot of the people who are responding on behalf of the president don't know exactly what happened during those critical nights, during those critical months. people have come on later. people are really speculating at this point or hoping what might have been said. i think politically this shows that the mueller probe is making progress and that's significant because it helps nancy pelosi hold back her aggressive members who want to get into immediate oversight and it helps republicans protect the bipartisan senate investigation, protect the mueller probe. takes a lot of the air out of the argument that this is a rogue prosecutor not really getting anywhere. he's making tangible obvious progress. >> i want to see if phil rucker is still with us. we've put together a graphic showing the number of people inside donald trump's orbit, right, current, former campaign
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ties, not who have ended up caught up in this special counsel investigation. when sarah sanders says this doesn't have anything to do with president trump in large part, certainly for many people on the screen right now, president trump, donald trump, as candidate, hired them and brought them into his world, no. >> these folks were not just hired to be assistants. they were hired to be the chairmen of the cam pain, to be the national security adviser in the white house, to be the deputy chairman of the campaign. i mean, these are very senior roles. >> that's what -- and maybe -- but paul manafort, sure. >> yes, right. flynn, manafort, gates. exactly. these are big players in trump world and these campaign. >> we're taking a look again just to reset here for folks watching at home. on the left, that is roger
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stone's house. he is set to appear in a fort ladder da lauderdale courtroom. the expectation is this is an appearance. how long do these things typically go? >> i don't expect it to take very long at all. they'll make sure he has a lawyer and they'll set bail and he'll walk out of the courthouse and make a statement. i guess it will happen pretty quickly. >> as you talk about this important paragraph 12, we do know roger stone was communicating with steve bannon so he's one of the senior officials. the question, though, is who directed him? if he's the senior official we're talking about, it has to be somebody higher than bannon. so we're not operating totally in a vacuum. we do know that stone was communicating with bannon. that's an important fact for the bureau to fknow. >> exactly it 100%. it's clear this has gone up
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higher in the trump campaign and potentially the trump white house because a number of people went over. i think the bigger issue is when you run politics and run against the system and pack your campaign with, frankly, amateurs, who are sloppy and not careful about their potentially unlawful behavior, this is what you end up with. people making false statements under oath and trying to mislead americans. >> -- the campaign manager for the campaign at the time that it won, and she had been in politics for a long time, right? a lot of others around in that orbit. it was chaotic. >> it was chaotic. i think i'm going back to the idea that giuliani this morning conversation the president is safe. rudy is saying that and to me, having long conversations with rudy, he's saying to try to counter this messaging, the idea that the president might be wrapped up in this. it's an open question right now
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who directed these campaign officials to be in touch with roger stone, to ask wikileak for this information. so it's a chaotic campaign but at the head of this, there was no question that donald trump was the driver of that campaign. people coming in and out of the campaign. president trump was always basically his own campaign manager, his own messaging person. it's hard to think that all this was going on. the president had no clue about it. >> as we were reading it through this indictment. i think 6:17 this morning is when we got the notification. you of wad live on the air here as our teams read through itted an analyzed it. rudy giuliani did call our team back. kristen welker finally got in touch with him. he said it is another false statement case. we are expecting a more fullsome statement likely in about, what, 20 minutes or so. we think in half an hour, that
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will happen. doug burns, your reaction to rudy giuliani saying this is a false statement case? that this indictment specifically talks about not collusion with russia but the lies, according to the special counsel, were told to copping? >> having to pull out political arguments and sound bites and rhetoric and then the legal argument. what they've been saying all along is, look, when you have these ancillary prosecution, process crimes i think people called it of lying, substantive crime that somehow is some big mitigating point. it's not necessarily. obstruction of justice is what it is. you stand to account for it. that's really what they're doing. do think, reading a little bit of the tea leave, they seem to be out on the heels a little bit. they doesn't come out sort of scorched earth. it's because of that toxic language of senior campaign officials. people being directed, et
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cetera. as far as today's court appearance, you know, when somebody is arrested, basically it's called a removal proceeding. you go to court where you are arrested. but the case isn't there. it's in d.c. so there's only two issues. identity. are you the roger stone named here. they'll waive that. and then bail. i suspect you'll say you can be released and go up to washington on your own. in a really serious criminal case, the person's detained and brought to the marshals. >> what happens when he's back in d.c.? >> he goes before the d.c. court and then he's arraigned on the indictment. he'll have to enter a plea. of not guilty. which is a legal plea, not a factual one. a lot of times people say he went to court, he said he's not guilty. it's just a legal plea. the case will proceed from there in washington, d.c. >> there's an interesting piece out, and betsy woodruff has been in touch with roger stone. and talked about how i think as
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recent hi as this week, even last night, stone didn't expect this to be coming down today. there was no head's up. there was no back channel from the special counsel's office saying you might want to be home before breakfast tomorrow. >> well, showing up at 4:00 in the morning. the other thing fascinating along those lines is the president -- i think they're going to start distancing themselves from stone. the problem is you can't really do that when the president has a 20-year relationship with roger stone. with cohen, they said, oh, it's a real estate guy, just this heavy who sort of helped us out. >> which also is not credible. >> it's getting harder, harder to keep running. >> of course, coffee boy. >> yes, he was only there a little while, didn't have much to do. it's not credible at all. >> thread out here what giuliani might be saying, what the
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president is saying, kind of the truth of the marty of what wett we've been discussing? >> it's clear just because they say stone came off the payrolls in august of 2015 didn't mean he didn't stay on as an adviser and he wasn't in close contact with the president. paragraph 21, i know we're reading behind papers a lot today, this gets into what exactly roger stone lied about to the house committee. this really flies in the face of what his lawyer is saying when he tried to say that what he didn't -- what he withheld was not material. it said stone made deliberately false and misleading statements about his possession of documents and the source for his early august 2016 statements about organization one. that's wikileaks. that august 2016 statement is when you talk about working with wikileaks. then also says the request he made for information from the
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head of organization one. that's assange. and his identifications and his communication about wikileaks. that is what he lied about. that is what he withheld. frankly, they wouldn't be bringing these charges about this that are material. why this matter, why mueller is connecting these dots now at this point in this investigation. so just wanted to zero in on how incredibly material that really was. >> we are now at 9:30, 30 minutes past the hour. let's take a minute to reset where we are. you're looking at roger stone's house. that say live shot from a helicopter. that's the kind of coverage this thing is getting today. at 11:00, we expect to see roger stone at a ft. lauderdale. false statement, witness tampering and obstruction.
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secti essentially, lied about what he told congress about his interactions between the trump campaign and wikileaks. we're expecting to see stone some time in the next hour and a half. we're also expecting to hear from rudy giuliani, the president's attorney, in a more formal statement, some time in the next half hour. we've already heard from press secretary sarah sanders over at the white house saying this essentially doesn't have anything to do with donald trump. we have asked of course the press secretary to come on this program. we're hoping she does. i have a team of people with me. an army, a cast of thousands, phil ruck, doug burns, elliott williams, julia ainsley, cynthia, but i want to start this half hour with ken dilanian in a courthouse in washington, d.c. for a different case. that's the case of manafort. when it rains, it pours. he's also due in court today. >> the hearing is due to start at 9:30.
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we understand manafort's wife is in the courtroom. this is a hearing where the judge wants to be informed about this dispute between manafort and the mueller prosecutors about whether manafort lied and whether his plea deal should be voided as a result. the documents were heavy relack redacted. more than half were redacted. i think it's significant. only because, look, manafort and stone go back decades. they worked on campaigns together. manafort had a good idea about it. they were friends. we don't know the extent to which he shared that information with mueller's office. much is unknown to the public.
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there's simply a dispute about certain things mueller said he lied about. >> talk about the relationship between manafort and stone because there was a relationship. it's interesting. >> they go back decades. they pioneered this idea of running campaigns together. including for some very unsavory foreign governments. they worked on campaigns together. manafort was inside and stone was outside. but nobody believes they weren't talking and discussing many matters. just because manafort's cooperation agreement is now seemingly void because he lied does not mean he didn't provide the mueller team substantial information.
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he met with them and told them a lot. >> i want to play a little bit from savannah guthrie's interview with roger stone on the "today" show a little while back. >> it isn't complete, correct? >> i know what's in my e-mails. i know what the context of my phone calls are. i believe i was under surveillance for some period. >> here's the thing. mueller has text messages. documents and records. including some records that show that roger stone was literally evoking the godfather, right, in order to tell people not to tell the truth to congress. to tell some of his associates this. he threatened to steal a dog in writing and the special counsel
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apparently had that information. >> right. they put right in the indictment the conversation which is almost a ridiculous conversation. and i think this has to do with randy creditco and intimidating him not to testify. i learned this morning as we slowly get this information that there was a s.w.a.t. team in new york with a search warrant in roger's house. and that actually makes sense then. that they would have arrested him so early in the morning. >> explain that. i have to say i don't know nbc news has confirmed that piece of it although we heard some of the similar speculation as well. if that was the case, why is that significant as re late it to the raid this morning? >> that meaning they're afraid things are going to be destroyed. then it makes sense that they would have done it early in the
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morning and make sure everything is preserved for the case. while they are clearly sending a message if they're doing search warrants in one place and arresting in another that all seems to loop together and make sense. and i would say, right now, were i jerome corsi, i would be on the phone to my lawyer and talk about coming in as quickly as possible. a good portion of the indictment quote his conversations with corsi. we know mueller's given corsi basically a sample indictment if he doesn't plead. the stone and corsi indictments go hand-in-hand. they go together. i would expect something to happen relatively soon there. >> i got to say, this is one of those things, i think a lot of folks who have been closely watching this here at our organization and others had been expecting this shoe to drop. it was just a question of when. so doug, elliott, i wonder if you can speak to the timing of
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this. why today. >> the evidence was ready. the indictment was ready. this is what it went for. i think the public has a sense these things are released on a certain date for bang or for impact or something like that. i don't think -- >> i don't think robert mueller's thinking about that. >> not to make robert mueller his super hero, but the indictment was ready. you know, it's not election day or some other major event that would make you want to pause before taking a major action. they went forward with it. i think the same thing will happen if an action's taken against corsi. when they're ready, that's when they'll move forward. >> i don't know if we have capitol hill reporters ready to go but we're hearing from house speaker nancy pelosi moments ago on the arrest of roger stone. this is literally happening the last couple seconds. we're working to turn the tape around. she says it is very interesting to see the kinds of people that the president of the united states has surrounded himself with.
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speaker pelosi saying the integrity of our elections is obviously something we have to get to the truth about. the president's suggestions we should question whether we should be in nato which is a dream come true for vladimir putin as we look again at the number of people linked to the trump orbit. some more rising stars than others that have been convicted, convicted of crimes or pled guilty to crimes in this robert mueller investigation. >> speaker pelosi is also connecting all this to foreign policy. as reporters and as people that are reading the indictments, we've been super focused on the trump campaign. we see the trump presidency that has also made people repeatedly nervous because of the actions. because of his international policies. i was at nato when the president in some ways almost blew up the place. that people were so stunned by how he was speaking about nato. i was at the g-7 when he was talking about trade and canada as if it was an enemy and putin
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is someone who should be trusted over our intelligence community. what we're seeing is really pelosi making the case to say look, there's a through line here. it doesn't just stop at the trump campaign. it goes on and on. >> legally these are -- they're calling it sort of half a loaf. these are crimes on our legal system. strike at the heart of our legal system. >> let me pull back. this indictment does not say anything, right, specifically about collusion? >> that's fine, but this indictment has people lying to congress. lying and cheating our criminal justice system. that strikes at in a different way who we are as a nation. we don't want to lose that in talking about collusion. >> that's important for members of congress, right? for lawmakers who are angry about the fact that multiple
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people have come in and have lied to them. in congressional testimony. which is illegal. you can get into a lot of trouble with that as we've seen. phil if he's still with us, has covered it as well. as we work to bring you that pelosi sound as soon as we are turning it around. one of the things our first read team has zeroed in over these last, gosh, years now, has been the president's call for wikileaks to release what it knows. >> we love wikileaks. we've learned so much from wikileaks. wikileaks. wikileaks. wikileaks. wikileaks. wikileaks. wikileaks. wikileaks just came out with lots of unbelievable things. >> trump, at the time a candidate, was interested to see
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what wikileaks had to say. that raised some alarms among others in the 2016 campaign run-up. >> yes, you know, the hacking of those e-mails was not some side event. the discovery, the wikileaks, the dumps of those john podesta e-mails became a core part of trump's message in the general election. he talked about it almost every day at the rallies. it was top of mind for candidate trump. he saw these e-mails. and everything that it uncovered, be it the sort of palace intrigue within the clinton campaign to those clinton goldman sachs speech transcripts that created all dines of problems for her with the progress ev left. trump saw that as a way to help him win. it was a message he usedness rallies. it was a message he used in his debates. he was thinking about it a lot and paying attention to the discovery of those e-mails. >> roger stone, by the way, is at that courthouse. that federal courtroom in
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ft. lauderdale. he's at least in the building. our producers on the ground in florida is telling us yes, roger stone has arrived. in about an hour and 20 minutes he is set to appear before a judge. after being indicted by the special counsel at the crack of dawn basically. there are some early reports that there is something going on in his new york home. we're following all of that. phil rucker described the wikileaks discussions that then candidate trump was having. there were a series of things that happened. specifically as it related, and there's a lot of discussion about this. the now infamous "access hollywood" video that came out, that looked at the time like it was threatening to derail donald trump's candidacy. >> when we look at the campaign, the time line what we see is that mueller isn't just looking
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at e-mails ands at the messages. he's looking at valuable things. things that we say, is the president really inviting russia to hack hillary clinton's e-mails? we know this is -- in some ways we talk about it as a sloppy team or team a, b and c. they're not just text messaging each other. roger stone is tweeting out, hey, there's something coming. we have to look at those statements. at the center of it was president trump and the small team and president trump knowing almost every single thing happening in the campaign because it was so small. and also free wheeling. >> i don't know if any of our reporters are out at the white house north lawn because i know that press secretary sanders just spoke to them in the
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driveway. she's reiterating what we've heard this morning. sanders is saying this has nothing to do with the president. it's the same man that ran the campaign, michael. >> here's the reason why the statement is important. she's bringing in the bigger picture which is this is not just cooperation of the campaign. this has impacted u.s. policy under trump. we've seen a decided shift towards positions that russia favors. this is not an isolated legal matter. this say broad publis a broad p debate. >> yes, 100%. i can't agree more. getting back to the policy on russia. getting back to the party platform question.
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clearly benefited russia. now we're seeing came at the direction of, you know, russian actors reaching out through intermediaries to the campaign. you know, all this, it may not be -- >> i start to ask the question if the president's personal lawyer, working with for more than a dozen years. who is connected to president trump? is it only his children that sand sers finally going to say actually these people the president might know? to me it just gets to the point where they're using the same playbook. because at this point, really doesn't make any sense. >> it is worth saying in the bounds of what we know from this indictment. to have that broader policy conversation. we don't know some things that relate to donald trump. so rudy giuliani might be able to say this has nothing to do
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with president trump. he could be right, he could be wrong. he hired and connected with and interacted with all these people, right, which is important -- >> so joyce vance was on the network, using the expression awful but lawful. there are things that may not make it into an indictment. things perhaps the president won't be charged with. this is all questionable conduct going to the highest levels. >> it just is. let me bring in kelly o'donnell. kelly, give us a sense of this. it looks like from the notes i've been seeing from our internal system, speaker pelosi walked by, we threw a question to her. >> the shutdown frenzy balloon has a pin in it with the indictment of stone. there's not a lot of activity on shutdown but plenty for the speaker of the house to react to. and she is getting at a point that you were just sort of articulating. the sphere of influence around the ipresident and persons who have been indicted or in the
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cross hairs. the president's liability for bringing them into national politics if you want to extend it that far. so speaker pelosi was asked about roger stone. she gave a more broad kind of remark. here we have the tape of that for our viewers to asset what they think is in the mind of pelosi. >> president of the united states surrounding himself -- is obviously something that. [ inaudible ] it is also bothersome to see his connections to russia and the suggestions that we should question nato which is a great coup for vladimir putin.
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>> for the benefit of our viewer, i'm sorry the audio in there was not as crisp as we would hope it would be or at least in that pass was not. want to be careful to protect our sound people. i'm not criticizing them. >> i got you, i know. >> yes, that's important. let me recap. very sh s-- she is saying the k of people the president has surrounded himself with. this is obviously something we have to get to the truth about. that would be the speaker and her oversight capabilities with -- we've talked about her sort of putting a wet blanket on impeachment. there's so much more the house democrats can do from a committee standpoint. getting to the connections can be a signal from the speaker she would like to see more offers, oversight. it's bothersome to see his connections to russia and the president's suggestions we should question whether we should be in nato. that's a current foreign policy position of the president where
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he's encouraged other nations to spend more. the white house would say that is giving more money to nato. the president questioning the role of nato at times. and from wide reporting of questioning behind the scenes, the role of the post-world war ii alliance against the threat of a growing russia. so there's a lot packed into what speaker pelosi had to say. one of the things that striked me, hallie, we had a whole news cycle plus when rudy giuliani, the president's lawyer, said "i never said the president" -- >> right. >> so is there something in the ether where they were preparing the landscape of this day of smoking tweets and smoking texts coming out in this indictment. where rudy giuliani -- we'll have to ask him, find out what his state of knowledge was at the time. but were they trying to suggest there might be persons in the president's orbit who may have colluded but not the president. is that something we need to look at with a fresh set of eyes today. >> kelly o'donnell on capitol
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hill. i know you'll be chasing this story throughout the day, kelly, thank you. i want to bring back in cynthia oxney. we're waiting my colleague. but she is she's confirming something we talked about a couple minutes ago. my colleague at nbc reporting christen davis tells her the fbi executed a search warrant at the apartment in new york she used to share with roger stone. talk about the significance of that. >> reporter: well, it's significant because it means that the mueller investigation has sold the judge that there's probable cause to believe there's something in the house that has to do with this investigation. and so we will wait until we know what that is and what he thought he would find and what, in fact he does find. it's -- the indictment itself as you read it, as you step back and read it, it's interesting, because it's very on some level very narrow. you said you didn't have any
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documents to the house committee, and that was a lie, and here are all the documents that, in fact, you did have. so when the time comes for the mueller team to sit down with roger stone and his lawyer, because now that he's been arrested, he has a lawyer. nobody will talk to him without a lawyer. they probably haven't been doing that for a while, but when they sit down with roger and his lawyer, they almost lay it out. just like you put a big white board. you said this, and that was a lie. and here's the document number one, here's document number two. and in an effort to get him to testify about the other people mentioned in the indictment, the senior campaign officials, at least we think one of them is bannon, but whoever directed bannon. >> nbc has not confirmed that. i have to throw that out there, although i know other organizations, "the new york times" reported on some of this last year. you're right, cynthia. please continue your thought there. >> reporter: well, if i just
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think it's interesting there's not a global indictment. the white house is right about conspiracy. you think about it. it would be difficult to prove a conspiracy case with wikileaks when the head of wikileaks who was doing these things is in the ecuador ambassador and not talking to anybody in london. they didn't get over their skis in this indictment. it is tight and controlled and provable. it puts roger stone in a difficult position. he can't say i -- those documents aren't mine. they are. they're texts. they are. they're e-mails. they're there. there isn't any question that when he went on meet the press in the clip you showed earlier, he was lying. there's no question to the house committee he was lying. they've got him in a vice. he's going to have make a decision what's in his interest and his family's best interest at this point in his life. >> on the back of this piece of paper you wrote the word flipping during this conversation. explain that. >> now he has a normal defendant
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would have an enormous incentive to cooperate with the government. they have -- as others say, they have the rereceipts. >> we're millennials you can say it. >> i missed it by five years. they have the receipts and text messages. they can convict him of i believe seven charges. now you have the months of sayingsa saying i will never turn my back on the president versus going to jail far long time as an old man. most defendants end up cooperating. under normal circumstances a defendant in this position would. all the statements about whether he would, he may go back on them. we saw from cohen and we saw from manafort they expressed they would never flip on the president and they would always tell the truth. then the feds came knocking, they did and gave their testimony. it will be interesting to see what he does there. >> doug, is it your expectation
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based on what you know that robert mueller and his team would be putting pressure on roger stone to do just that? >> absolutely. no question about it. first of all back to the search warrant point. it does explain why they went and arrested him at 6:00 a.m. that comes across much better. the point is you can either subpoena documents or you can issue a search warrant. search warrant is where you have a reasonable fear that things may be compromised, removed, destroyed, et cetera. consequently, they wanted to arrest the defendant. this is shoptalk, but hear me out, so there can't be any immediate conversation about the documents. they're using -- they've got paperwork, e-mails, documents. those types of things don't lie. human beings do. they want to put pressure on them. my crystal ball, i'm not sure it's going to lead to cooperation. very much of an open question. >> michael steel, i'm just
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learning from my colleagues at the white house, kristen welker, and monica, we have confirmed that steve bannon is referenced a couple of times in this indictment according to a source, a person with direct knowledge of this investigation and the indictment. so he is according to our reporting, the person, the high ranking trump official referenced in a conversation about wikileaks e-mails here. not surprising, we've known bannon has been in touch with stone. "the new york times" reported. the dates and language matches exactly that he was the one in touch with stone. >> i almost feel badly for the president's defenders today. this goes back to the chaos of the regular campaign. call logs, records. >> and you worked on campaigns. >> sure. you know who a presidential candidate is talking to when and why. we have none of those records here. i think the likelihood that steve bannon is going to tell the truth about this stuff is about as high as him making the cover of gq, and we don't trust
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the president himself. >> we have rolled through an hour of live television. we have to sneak in a break. after we'll talk about stone's indictment and his court appearance 60 minutes from now. t appearance 60 minutes from now i'm really into this car,
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and the army taught me a lot about commitment. which i apply to my life and my work. at comcast we're commited to delivering the best experience possible, by being on time everytime. and if we are ever late, we'll give you a automatic twenty dollar credit. my name is antonio and i'm a technician at comcast. we're working to make things simple, easy and awesome. in washington right now everybody is looking at that florida courthouse where roger stone the long-timed a vie or the to donald trump has arrived. that's after he was indicted and arrested this morning at his home in fort lauderdale charged
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by the special counsel with more than half a dozen federal criminal counts. we have a team here to break down the latest developments and analysis. we may know more in 60 minutes when roger stone appears in court. he's facing oing five counts ofe statements related to statements in front of the house intelligence committee in 2017. we'll get to what they say roger stone lied about in the testimony. there is new background information now that robert mueller's office is sharing for the first time about stone's alleged interactions with trump campaign officials and about what the special counsel refers to as organization one or what we believe to be wikileaks. from page two of the indictment, during the summer of 2016 stone spoke with senior trump campaign officials about organization one, wikileaks. and

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