tv MSNBC Live With Craig Melvin MSNBC January 25, 2019 8:00am-9:00am PST
melvin. good morning, craig melvin here. msnbc headquarters. two major stories we're following right now. one at la guardia airport a ground stop lifted moments ago because of air traffic controller staffing issues. they expect delays around the country to persist. the latest biggest most frightening result of the government shutdown at day 35. more on that in just a moment. we'll dig into that in just a moment. also, breaking news in the mueller investigation. roger stone, to appear in court any moment. the one time campaign official was arrested at his florida home this morning. his apartment here in new york also raided. an unsettling sight for president trump who says stone had guts for saying he'd never
testify against the president. fbi agents, unpaid we should point out, arresting stone just after 6:00 this morning. seven counts in the indictment against stone, including false statements to investigators and witness tampering. the indictment also contains a lot of colorful anecdotes about a very colorful operative. the mueller team says that stone's intimidation tactics including telling one person, prepare to die. the indictment says that stone threatened this person's dog. even telling him to do a godfather ii reference. in a statement to nbc news, his lawyer said this, quote, there were no charges of russian collusion. these were charges they brought specifically to go against roger stone. they started looking atlution
a and if they had found collusion they would have found it. big picture though, this indictment is as much about the president as it is his longtime confidant. it's about how corrected the campaign was to stone and how connected stone was to those hacked e-mails and russia. a big panel for you here on this mueller friday. our nbc reporters kerry sanders at the federal courthouse in ft. lauderdale. julia ainsley who broke the news for msnbc this morning. jeff bennett. for some analysis, the former federal prosecutor. chuck rosenburg is sticking around for us, former u.s. attorney and senior fbi official. all three of them msnbc an lists and our chief legal correspondent is going to join us in just a moment. let's start at the courthouse with nbc's kerry sanders. what's the scene like at the courthouse? what are we expecting there to
happen today? >> reporter: right now inside the federal courthouse here in ft. lauderdale, up on the second floor, roger stone is in custody with u.s. marshals. they will be entering, if they're not right now already, in u.s. magistrate snow's courtroom where they will have a proceeding to discuss what happens next. where i'm standing right now outside the courthouse, you can see a large number of people have gathered here. some of them holding signs, but mostly media. one of the signs here sort of addressing directly to the question of that connection. this one person plays a music -- which of course is the beatles song. as i make my way through the crowd, we're taking a live picture right now, this is the entrance to roger stone's neighborhood. this is where the fbi in a predawn raid went to his house
to serve the search wearrant. the fbi has set up a serious of tents there to prevent any visuals from above as the crime scene technicians and agents go in and out of the house to collect evidence to gather what it is that is all part of this indictment right here. and the possibility exists here that after this hearing, he could post a bond and that is why if he posts a bond, we have all these microphones set up. as we know, roger stone is somebody who is not shy to talk. in fact, he's been very much taunting the authorities, the mueller investigation. the one thing to point out here is this happened on a friday morning. and the process right up there to get a hearing completed for a bond requires a lot of signatures. the timing of this on a friday
may simply be that roger stone is going to be kept in custody over the weekend. if he is, he could go to the broward county jail that's right over here. but most likely he will be taken down to the federal detention center in miami. but for the time being, he can be held here until around 6:00. they do have a cell here, the u.s. marshals have a holding cell here where he can be kept. that's the situation right now. it should be underway or starting any moment right now. as you know, craig, inside a federal court, now cameras and certainly no cell phones. so we will get the information from hour nbc producer who is inside once things are completed. >> a bit of a circus there, kerry sanders. a bit of a side show. we'll come back to kerry in just a moment. jeff bennett, let me come back to you. is the reaction from this white house so far? >> reporte >> reporter: the counselor to
the president in the last hour or so gave us this statement, he says the indictment today does not allege russian collusion by roger stone or anyone else. rather the indictment focuses on alleged false statements mr. stone made to congress. that's true, but then the question is what were the false statements, what was the lying about? roger stone allegedly was lying about the contacts between the trump campaign and russia over releasing information, documents stolen by russian intelligence to release that to hurt the clinton campaign as a means of helping donald trump win the 2016 election. despite that, despite the fact that roger stone was and perhaps is a close confidante of president trump's, and we know that he also kept an off the books informal advisory role after he left the campaign in 2015, despite all of that, the official white house line is that none of this has anything to do with president trump. take a look at what sarah sanders had to say earlier today. >> this has nothing to the with
the president and certainly nothing with the white house. roger stone is somebody who has been a consultant for dozens of republican presidents and candidates and members of congress. the president did nothing wrong. there was no collusion on his part. the president has actually, unlike his predecessor been tough on russia. >> reporter: this is a well worn strategy. we've seen the white house do this with george pop dopiloapad saying he was a low level coffee boy, paul manafort only played a small role in the trump campaign, even though he was a chairman during the convention. president trump has two events on his schedule, both are closed to the press, one with mayors one with hispanic pastors. we'll see if he wants to speak directly to the american public. >> did we just hear sarah sanders say at the end of her sound bite there was no collusion on his part. is that what she said?
>> reporter: it is what she said. you talk about moving those goal posts, those goal posts are outside the stadium. she is really echoing rudy guiliani who earlier this month said he couldn't rule out collusion between the campaign and russia. he could only speak for the president. he only represents the president. as far as he knew the president didn't collude with russia. didn't speak on behalf of the campaign. >> julia, we should remind our viewers and listeners what roger stone told chuck todd back in may. all right. we don't have it. we'll try to pull it out and play it when we get it. julia, tell us about this indictment specifically any mention of the trump campaign. >> absolutely, craig. so all through this you can see the bread crumbs that mueller's team is leaving as they talk about people who are trump
campaign supporters, even high level trump campaign officials. and even one who was directed by someone hirgher up -- hard to imagine who can be higher up than the president himself. straight from the indictment, in the summer of 2016 stone was contacted by senior trump campaign officials about future releases. that's wikileaks releases. again, after july 22, 2016, the release of stolen e-mails. a senior trump campaign official was directed to contact stone about any additional releases and what other damaging information organization one had regarding the clinton campaign. then stone thereafter told the trump campaign about potential future releases of damaging material by organization one. and then on this last one, after october 7th release of podesta e-mails, that's john podesta who was hillary clinton campaign manager.
an associate of the high ranking trump campaign official sent a text message to stone that read, quote, well done. so all of the pieces together show how everyone in the trump orbit knew that roger stone was the wikileaks. what it does not lay out is whether or not the campaign officials knew the source of wikileaks information, that they got these e-mails from russian hackers, which mueller has pointed out in his indictments. it's not clear that they knew that. that's a key piece and another string that will need connecting. >> julia, thank you. stand by for me, if you can as well. i want to bring in bob costa here. bob costa, of course, there with the washington post. i understand you just hung up the phone with the president's tv attorney, rudy guiliani. what is he saying about all of this? >> joll yahis message that the
probe in his view is something that's based on a lot of false statements. cases about false statements. his quote to me was another false statement case, god almighty. his point there was that he doesn't see any collusion on the part of the president or the trump campaign. i asked rudy guiliani did he speak with the president about this indictment of stone, the president's longtime confidant. guiliani said he did, declined to describe the conversation other than to say the president was not nervous about it. >> did you get the sense that mr. guiliani was surprised by the arrest? >> he was not by that so many people in the president's circle have been expecting this for weeks. guiliani did say he had thought that maybe the mueller team was working on something bigger because they kept bringing in all of these stone associates for interviews. so guiliani speculated that maybe there was something going on there with mueller in terms
of building a case. he was surprised at the extent of the indictment was mostly about false statements in his perspective. >> bob, in the past when these indictments have happened, the president has diminished the role that some of the accused -- diminished the role they've had in the president's inner circle there. did you get any of that from rudy guiliani as well? did he in any way shape or form suggest that maybe roger stone was not as influential as he's been made out to be? >> he did. he did say that roger stone was only part of the campaign back in 2015 before stone quit. he had a clash with then candidate trump. it's hard to walk away from the idea at all objectively speaking that stone hasn't been part of the president's circle for decades. roger stone has been a close political advisor to president trump going back to the 1980s when he first linked up with ronald reagan's campaign in 1980 in the northeast region.
these are friends. they've had falling outs, they've come back together. but guiliani said that because stone was not a formal part of the campaign, this is not something the president had to deal with in his view. >> robert costa, national political reporter, just hung up the phone with rudy guiliani, the president's attorney. thanks as all for your reporting. our chief legal correspondent is here with us as well. just two nights ago you had four men who had spoken to bob mueller at the same time talking. first just your general thoughts on this indictment. i know you've been sifting through it, poring over it. >> this is a big one. we just spoke to four mueller witnesses, three of whom were there according to what they told us this week because of basically roger stone. here you see two people who are believed to be persons one and two. we're looking at individuals
around roger stone who, according to this new indictment were pulled in by him, pushed by him either to try to get information from weeky leaikile later according to mueller's new indictment to try to obstruct the probe. >> here's the soundbite. >> who did they ask most about? >> they asked mostly about roger stone. >> you? >> roger and michael. >> roger stone. >> your view was their questions had a theory where roger stone was a linchpin? >> they were probing. >> kaputo, yes? >> i don't know that they were trying to connect roger to the president with me, but it was very clear that they thought there was something going on with russia in the campaign. >> what you hear there is significant because that's three people who have been inside the room with mueller's investigators telling us here on
msnbc this week the theory of the case from those prosecutors was roger stone is the key link to cuclusiollusion. you heard the remarks of our colleague, mr. bennett, about moving the goal posts. this is the first time we've seen a theory for attempted collusion or conspiracy. doesn't mean they pulled it off. we're in a new place this morning we haven't been before from mueller, which is laying out evidence and arguments that there was an individual linked to donald trump who was actively trying to get illegally obtained materials for donald trump during the campaign. for the benefit of donald trump. that's new. >> we're having this conversation as roger stone's making his initial appearance at a federal courthouse there in ft. lauderdale, florida. he's before a u.s. magistrate judge.
we just heard from kerry sanders at the top of the broadcast. this is not expected to be a long proceeding. as i understand it, chuck rosenburg. what are we expecting is going to happen in this courtroom, perhaps happening right now as we speak? >> yeah, as federal hearings go, this one is relatively mundane and will be relatively quick. they're going to determine that mr. stone is in fact mr. stone. that he's been charged in the district of columbia, the guy the judge has in front of her in florida is the right guy. and then they may set some conditions of release. bond, if you will, for him to turn himself in in d.c. or if the government argues he's a risk of flight or a danger to the community in some way, they may decide to detain him and have the u.s. marshals transport him to the district of columbia. this is going to be pretty quick and i think not all that interesting.
>> ari, let's talk -- for folks again who may not be following this as closely as we are all following it here at msnbc, and certainly you, in a nutshell who is roger stone? >> rauoger stone is donald trums oldest political advisor. when donald trump was in business and there was no hint that he would seriously pursue politics, roger stone was a former nixon aid, a self-declared dirty trickster who said to donald trump you should run for president, who supported donald trump when he was flirting with the reform candidacy, a kind of a third party ticket that people didn't think would lead to the white house the way his republican candidacy ultimately did. roger stone is the guy, the political heavyweight, the phone line, the texting, the trump tower, 20 years back, this is one of the most serious relationships donald trump has. that doesn't mean you can do guilt by association. you bring a friend who is a convicted mobster into court and the judge will say who cares?
you're not guilty on behalf of your friends. none of that is to say that it implicates donald trump. indeed, i want to be very clear, this indictment is very bad for roger stone. it is very bad for whoever else may have been directing him if they did so knowingly to try to encourage law breaking. donald trump's name and title doesn't appear on the indictment. for people watching if you're catching back up and going whoa, is this big? yes, because a long time advisor of donald trump has been indicted for attempting to get stuff to hurt hillary clinton from russia, ie, attempted collusion. he just may not have pulled it off. >> wikileaks largely considered by intelligence agencies in this country, wikileaks itself considered an arm of the russian government. roger stone is being told he's being released on a $250,000
bond. it was a very short proceeding as you predicted it would be, chuck rosenburg. released on $250,000 bond. is that pretty much what you were expecting? >> yes, for somebody who doesn't have a criminal history, who isn't charged with a violent crime, that's not an unexpected outcome, craig. >> what's the next step? >> the next step will be for him to appear in a federal district court for the district of columbia to answer to these charges. the judge there will ask him to plead not guilty, is what he'll do. and she will -- she or he will set dates for motions and for trial. glen kirschner sitting next to me, has been -- >> sorry to cut you off. let's get back to kerry sanders outside the courthouse. >> reporter: after he signs over a $250,000 signature bond, which means that in the next couple of hours, we may see him walk right
out of the courthouse here and come over here because he is not shy from cameras. you can see all the cameras and the microphones that are set up to hear what he has to say about this indictment here. his home was raided this morning shortly before the sun came up. fbi agents with weapons and their vests on served a search warrant, took him into custody, and at this hour fbi teams, agents are currently at his home still going through his home looking for evidence. lester? >> kerry sanders there in florida. he called for lester, it was a simulcast with nbc news. we'll go back to kerry in just a moment. glen kirschner, let me bring you into the conversation. before we do that, we just heard from the president's attorney, rudy guiliani a few moments ago. now we are hearing from the president himself. the president tweeting, as he is
prone to do. president trump tweeting just a few moments ago, i believe we have the tweet, there it is. greatest witch hunt in the history of our country. now collusion. border coyotes, drug dealers and human traffickers are treated better. who alerted cnn to be there? apparently that last question there referenced to the fact that there was video of roger stone being arrested by fbi agents. glenn, based on this 24 page indictment we've all been poring over for the past few hours, how solid of a case is this? >> craig, it looks to be a strong case. let me correct what we just heard reported as rudy guiliani's -- i'm not going to call it a statement. it was more of some public relations ram bblingramblings. when he said this is nothing more than another false statements case. that's inaccurate. there is a witness tampering
charge and an obstruction of justice charge. there is no conspiracy charge yet. when we look through the 24 pages of this indictment there are all the building blocks of a conspiracy charge. a conspiracy that includes roger stone, person number one who appears to be jerome coursy. julian assange. let's remember, two conspirators never have to meet one another. they can be on separate continents. if they're all working together for the same unlawful purpose, then they are in a conspiracy together. finally, craig, as we see there are repeat references to at least one, perhaps more senior trump campaign officials. that is a prime target of a co-conspirator as well. >> roger stone, again, just a few moments ago, that federal courtroom inside that courtroom there in ft. lauderdale, we're being told he's being released
on a $250,000 signature bond. also being told the judge said he cannot change his address. he must surrender his passport and he also can't contact witnesses as well. also being told that roger stone perhaps unsurprisingly is going to be addressing the public roughly 45 minutes from now. kerry sanders all but predicted that a few minutes ago. i believe we have kerry back now. kerry, what do we expect to hear from roger stone? >> reporter: well, right now roger stone is here in the federal courthouse in ft. lauderdale. he's up on the second floor. basically going through paperwork where he has to sign certain papers. the u.s. magistrates had him in custody with his hands shackled in the courtroom, those shackles coming off now that the bond will be posted. he'll then come out here according to a representative who just came down here within about 45 minutes to an hour. io u you can see the cameras that are set up here all in anticipation
of the possibility that roger stone would be released and of course somebody who is not shy to talk on camera and likely will hold court out here for some time, explaining what his attorney has already sort of characterized about this indictment saying that he basically thought it was ridiculous. we'll hear more details from roger stone. at the same time right now just a short distance from here at roger stone's house, the fbi is still there with agents who are going through his home with a search warrant looking for evidence. one of the things they did is they put tents out so helicopters above cannot peer down and zoom in on what they're actually doing. the neighborhood is closed off. but at this point i think the headline is roger stone taken into custody this morning. now we'll be posting a bond from the federal court making his way out here and responding to what has happened in these last six, seven hours. >> all the. kerry, thank you. cynthia, roger stone, very
public about his conversations with wikileaks and then his public denials of collusion. how much of this did he bring on himself? >> he brought a lot on himself. it's hard for me to believe anybody who thinks -- who has lawyer thinks it's a good idea to -- when you know full well you had all these conversations. because we have proof of it now in the indictment. and then go on "meet the press" and say i had no contact. it's obvious he had contact and he was lying that whole time. to the extent that guiliani thinks it's no big deal, it's just a false statements case. that is a big deal. now what we know -- you know, expected for a long time is the campaign was lying to the american people during the campaign and members of the campaign -- because basically roger stone was a member of the campaign. he was a secret member, but he was a member. were lying to the house of representatives. to minimize that and to say that's not important is such an
assault on our democratic process. i'm just depressed that guiliani, who used to be a real prosecutor, thinks it's not important or not a big deal that public officials can lie to the american people willy-nilly and that there should not be any problem with it. and the key in this indictment to me is this paragraph 12. because if you look on paragraph 12 it says that a senior campaign official, who we believe to be steve bannon was directed to contact stone. okay. there weren't that many people higher than steve bannon. and now we know that -- whoever that is has been lying about it. and we need to know who that is. because it's not acceptable for members of presidential campaigns to lie to the american people and then continue to lie about it and then minimize it as it's no big deal. it's an assault on our democracy, it's ripping the fabric of our country together. we need to get to the bottom of
it. people need to be held accountable and we need to begin to heal. >> stone's attorney, grant smith, again, we're expecting to hear from roger stone in the next 30, 45 minutes or so. why would roger stone feel compelled to make a statement after being indicted, arrested and being forced to post this $250,000 signature bond? >> buckle up. what we're getting here in this breaking news is one mueller indicting very senior long time associate of donald trump for things he tried to do relating to collusion. number two, that person, roger stone, saying he's going to fight it. that would begin right now today. you don't wait to fight something like this. that's going to be in court with obviously the legal process. everyone understands that. we were just covering that. okay, not guilty. then it comes out to the rest. how does he align himself with people that are friendly to trump, with trump allies, how does he position himself as some sort of way to go a bulwark against the mueller probe.
appealing to the so-called witch-hunt crowd. what does he do if he wants to address the public? as a chief legal correspondent, i want to be clear about where we're going. there's room for analysis and plenty of room for criticism because mueller's laying out all kinds of stuff a lot of americans think is abhorrent for anyone to do in the political process. i want to be clear about what we know and don't know. with regard to the tantalizing allegation in here that was just mentioned, paragraph 12 -- >> what page is that? >> page 4, paragraph 12. a senior trump campaign official directed to contact stone about any additional releases and what other damaging information organization one, believed to be wikilea wikileaks, had about the clinton campaign. mueller is telling you that stone was not just some sort of rogue, but they were reaching out to stone and it came from a higher place. as for who that official is, mueller is not naming that person. which means this is the federal government, through the special counsel's office telling us trump campaign but not telling
us who. because we have this language after july 22nd released, that could mean the day after, could mean longer after. i would note steve bannon didn't join the campaign until much later, about a month, august 19th. who that person is, if they were employed by the campaign at that time and the exact timing of that is not stated by mueller. that's important. number two, i think what you have to look at here is we're looking at roger stone as a mystery figure. in fairness to the trump campaign, they would say donald trump washed his hands of using roger stone long before any of these charged crimes. so that's important in fairness to them. on the flip side, anyone who has been around donald trump or politics knows you don't have to be on his payroll, heck, he doesn't pay a lot of people anyway. the larger point that's potentially a blockbuster is the idea hinted at that roger stone off the payroll, off the books,
was essentially doing these things for the trump campaign. >> person one and person two in this indictment, not named. but do we think we know who they are? >> we do. and this is standard practice. this is not just a mueller thing. this is in any indictment if someone is not being charged, they are not referred to by name to protect them because you're not supposed to infer negative things. when you refer to a president or ceo, it's clear who it would be. in this key new stone indictment, you have person one identified as a media figure on the right wing connected to stone and then the later e-mails match with things we've obtained here in our newsroom that make it look to be jerome coursy, who as you and i were discussing earlier i interviewed earlier this week. person two is identified as a re radio host. well, both stone and randy
cred creditco -- it was something that randy first discussed on msnbc during that time. some of this gets weird or baroque. it's now a charged crime of mr. stone threatening his dog, threatening he would end up in jail, other types of attacks. we've been talking about what it means when you attack someone and their family or try to intimidate them, bob mueller today is saying he will charge witness tampering. >> have you talked to coursy since news broke about this indictment? >> i feel like i'm being interviewed. this feels like a deposition. the last time i spoke to mr. coursy was late last night. we spoke about roger stone, we spoke about whether this would happen. it was before this happened. >> i want to give the control room a heads up. i'm not even sure we have this.
we have been doing a pretty good job of keeping track graphically of the folks who have been indicted so far, folks who have been charged by bob mueller. look at that. somebody is quick on the switch there. dom, way to go. this is the trump team so far. the criminal records so far. george papadopoulos, charged with lying about people he believed were working on behalf of russians. sam patten. paul manafort by the way, mr. manafort also in a courtroom today as well, manafort charged with tax and bank fraud, false statements, being an unregistered agent of a foreign principle. charged with obstruction of justice as well. it would seem he's going to spend the better part of a decade in a federal prison. michael cohen. alex vanderswan.
charged for lying to investigators. rick gates, lying to the fbi. michael flynn charged for lying with the fbi. 13 russian nationals, three related companies as well charged with conspiracy to defraud the united states. conspiracy to commit bank fraud. and identity theft as well. 12 russian intelligence officers. i think we've gotten everyone. are you looking at those two full screens there. some of the folks you probably have forgotten about. and the president continues to insist no collusion, this is all a witch hunt. you look at those two full screens and it would not seem to be much of a witch hunt at all. if it is a witch hunt, the special counsel's office has managed to ensnare lots of witches. >> we've never seen something like this before. when you take it together as you just broke it down as a matter of reporting, craig.
the noose is tightening around the trump campaign. the noose is tightening around the trump campaign, its activities, according to this evidence its attempts to get inside information. according to one e-mail from mr. stone to direct the type of material information it wanted to get from weeky leaikileaks w alleged to be from russia. that's a big deal. it doesn't tell you how many people were involved. it tells you -- i want to be fair and clear about this -- it tells you zero about the asserted evidence of the legal knowledge of then candidate trump later president trump. so it is possible legally that all of this went down, a conspiracy or attempted collusion involving all those people, including non-related -- unrelated crimes of collusion and the candidate didn't know, didn't direct. that's possible. we have to, according to the rule of law, be prepared for
what the evidence shows. the noose is tightening around the campaign. roger is utnot nobody. he's a big fish. mueller is putting down for the first time a piece of the type of attempted conspiracy you would get involved in a campaign. who directs a senior campaign official? somebody else senior or above. you're getting to a noose around a small number of people around the campaign. it may not be the candidate. let's be fair, a lot of people in this country are skeptical of the things donald trump says. because why? because he lies constantly. but we've all covered campaigns where the candidate is out of the loop of all sorts of big things. donald trump was not super experienced. you can make that case, that's clearly what rudy guiliani has been doing. it's not nothing bad happened, my guy didn't know about anything that happened. maybe the bad things aren't crimes. a lot of them have been confessed crimes. that's not a debate.
what we're seeing here a, today will be one of its biggest days. >> live look on your screen. that's the scene outside the federal courthouse in ft. lauderdale, florida. that's where we're going to be hearing from roger stone roughly 30 minutes from now. roger stone, again, indicted, arrested is out on a $250,000 signature bond. a judge forcing him to turn over his participate and to not change his address. we also know -- as ari indicated there, this is a man that not just knows the president very well and was a long time advisor. they had a fairly public relationship. 40 years a relationship that spanned 40 years. there are pictures of roger stone and donald trump together back in the 70s and 80s. the president has said in the past that stone was quote, essentially stating he will not be forced by a rogue and out of control prosecutor to make up lies and stories about president trump. nice to know that some people still have guts.
that was the president just a few months ago tweeting his support of roger stone, saying he would never testify against him. stone has said the same thing on this network before, that he would not flip on the president. president trump tweeting a few moments ago about today's news calling it, again, unsurprisingly the greatest witch hunt in the history of our country. now collusion, all caps. border coyotes and human traffickers are treated better. who alerted cnn to be there? that reference about cnn we believe president trump is preferencing the video from that early morning arrest. there's the video of that arrest at roger stone's home in ft. lauderdale. that arrest happening after 6:00 a.m. meanwhile, his residence in new york also being searched by investigators as well.
glenn kur the length of the indictment, is that a way to say to roger stone, look, we've got the goods, your best move, despite what you've been saying publicly, your best move at this point is to cooperate? >> yeah, i can't imagine roger stone at his age wants to die in prison. i have seen a lot of people puff up their chest and try to project strength before they're indicted claiming i'm not a snitch i'm not going to rat out my friends. so many of them fold like a cheap lawn chair. that's what i expect we'll see from roger stone. craig, i know we're going to hear from roger stone on the courthouse steps now that he's been charged. if we look at the tail end of his indictment, in that indictment he's quoted in his own e-mail as saying to person two you're a rat. you're a stoolie, you back stab
your friends. i will take your dog away from you. i am ready, let's get it on. prepare to die. and then there's an expletive that's redacted. that's who roger stone is. that's consciousness of guilt. he's not saying these people lied about him. they're saying he told on him. he told what -- they told what he did. that's very different from lying about somebody. >> for those of you reading along back at home, that was page 20 of the indictment that mr. kirschner just referenced there. don't go anywhere. i want to go back to kerry sanders for a moment. kerry, i understand you're speaking with one of the producers that was actually inside the courtroom when roger stone was allowed to post that bail. >> reporter: well, craig, as we're waiting outside here for roger stone to come out within the next 45 minutes, maybe a little bit longer, we can now talk to our producer who was inside the courtroom.
nbc producer who i guess it was a little bit of a struggle even to get into this magistrate's courtroom. >> we didn't expect so much of a presence of spectators, the media, we were all scrambling to get in and pushing to get in. it was civil, but some of us did not get in. fortunately i did because i was there early. >> reporter: was he already in the courtroom? >> he was seated wearing a navy blue polo type shirt, possibly what he was taken out of his home wearing. he wasn't dressed for court, if you will. his hands were shackled. he answered the judge's questions and it was probably like a 15, 20 minutes hearing. >> reporter: when the magistrate asked the questions, did he stand up, did he remain seated? did he look at the judge, did he look down? how did he appear? >> he was seated for part of it when they were explaining all the charges and the requirements for him. but he did stand up at one point when the judge asked him about his -- that his passport will be
suspended and all travel documents. he told your honor, my participate is expired, so that is not an issue. they told him he cannot apply for a passport. he cannot contact witnesses. his attorney can do so but he cannot. he cannot sell any personal property. i've got my old school notes because phones aren't allowed in the courtroom as you know. thank got for pen and paper. what else -- >> reporter: i'm curious. he's known to be a very confident, sometimes brash person. as he was in court, did he exude confidence? what respect did he show to the process? >> i think just regular roger stone. he was confident and he answered the questions very directly. he is supposedly coming out here in about 30 minutes. we'll hear from him soon. >> reporter: did they tell him where he could and could not travel? >> travel is restricted to the southern region of florida from vero beach to can he west and
the eastern district of virginia and d.c. >> in all of the process of this, did he seem to have any objections or was it more compliant? >> i would say compliant, absolutely compliant. >> reporter: i need to make a note here, you rushed in and more importantly you rushed out and your foot is in a cast. thank you for that. i know this isn't particularly easy amidst all of this. we'll be waiting out for roger stone to come down here. i think -- i suspect he's going to talk for a while. but we'll wait to see here. >> kerry, why are all those people there? >> reporter: you know, i'm going to take you through, it's a curiosity. look at the one sign up there. putin won it. there are some people here who have made up their minds of what the mueller investigation is going to find. they're over there, playing the beatles music back in the u.s.s.r. we have folks who have gathered out of sheer curiosity. even with their little dog with
them. i'll just ask you, you just walking by, how did you hear about this? why are you here? >> my birthday was on sunday so i thought it would be a great birthday present to witness history live. >> reporter: you have a political dog in this fight. how do you feel? >> i'm glad to see this indictment. >> reporter: thank you very much. we have folks who have gathered out here. there was a woman over here who i believe was a trump supporter, we'll come over and see if she's willing to talk to us. can i chat with you for a second on msnbc? >> sure. >> reporter: what drew you to come down here? >> i believe in roger stone, he's my neighbor here in south florida. i've known him in a long time. i believe it's a witch hunt. i'm here because i stand with roger. >> reporter: what is your reaction to not the warrant being served and the indictment, but rather the method of the fbi agents arriving predawn hours, guns bulletproof vests? >> i think it's terrible and i think people are going to see through it.
i think it exemplifies the division in america right now and we're in a crazy time. i don't think it's going to help anybody in the long run. i think it's very unfair what they're doing to him. >> reporter: thank you very much. i appreciate it. there's two different sides, two different opinions. of course, we will hear from roger stone when he comes up here and addresses, as you can see -- i think it's the world's cameras for a story that has the nation captivated, craig. >> kerry sanders, ft. lauderdale, florida. kerry, thank you, sir. i'm joined now by a former chief spokesman for the justice department, he's also a msnbc justice and security analyst, matthew miller. mr. miller, the president again tweeting a short time ago calling this a witch hunt. but, again, we should point out a number of people have already been indicted, convicted have served time. very close to this president, very close to the campaign and the administration as well. i know you've been poring over the indictment, what jumps out
to you? >> when you look at the underlying conduct, not roger stone's alleged attempts to obstruct justice, not his alleged lies, but you look at the series of communications with weeky leaikileakswikileaks. you can read this as a -- many unsuccessful attempts to coordinate with wikileaks, maybe unsuccessful attempts to coordinate with the president. we don't know the extent of his conversations with the president. or you can read it as the tip of the iceberg. the thing that -- it's very hard to answer that question because we don't know. the question i keep coming back to is the behavior described by roger stone is so incredibly legally risky. he goes in and lies to congress about things that are easily proven to be lies. he intimidates in a way that is so over the top and so easy to understand and explain to a
jury. he's put himself at great legal risk. so if you put yourself in his shoes, you have to ask yourself the question, why would you put yourself at legal risk? it is just to cover out outreach to wikileaks you had already publicly bragged about during the campaign? that's what he did. he told the world he was communicating with weeky leaiki. is it to cover up conversations with the then candidate, now president, which he was reported to be having frequently in the fall of the campaign. we don't know the answer to that. i think one of the big outstanding questions for me, does bob mueller already know the answer to some of those questions or is this not just to hold roger stone responsible or to put pressure on him so he does tell the special counselor those answers. >> it was striking to hear from sarah sanders who said, again, that there was no collusion. at the end of the exchange with
reporters, i don't know if you heard this, but sarah sanders said not him. there was no collusion involving the president. which to a number of folks seemingly have opened the possibility that perhaps at some point the administration's approach was -- is going to be, well, there may have been some collusion, but the president wasn't involved in it. >> yeah, and that's a line of argument you saw previewed by rudy guiliani a week and a half ago where he came out and said it seemed to be, you know, a mistake on his part. it may have been a mistake or it may have been a deliberate strategy. you can see, you know, throughout this long, you know, one and a half year investigation now where the president's campaign has completely -- repeatedly had to retreat as their previous line of defense, you know, kind of collapsed under new facts. first they said there were no contacts with the russians. that turned out not to be true. they keep moving back further and further and further.
eventually the line you can see them getting to is, well, maybe the president did do all the things that's been alleged he did, but they weren't high crimes. we're not there yet but we're getting awfully close. >> stand by for me. that's the scene on the left side of your screen. this is the federal courthouse in ft. lauderdale, florida. that's where roger stone, a long time informal advisor to president trump was arrested by the fbi on friday. i say maybe about 30 minutes ago we found out that a judge there inside that courtroom had ordered mr. stone to turn over his passport. he was allowed to leave after posting the $250,000 signature bond. told not to change his address as well. roger stone announcing he's going to be making a statement, perhaps even taking some questions from the throng of reporters who have positioned
themselves outside that courthouse in ft. lauderdale. so that's happening there in florida. meanwhile, one time trump campaign manager paul manafort also in court this morning to address charges that he lied to the special counsel and violated his plea deal. i want to bring in our intelligence and national security reporter ken delaney who is outside a d.c. courthouse where the manafort hearing just adjourned a short time ago. what happened inside that courtroom, ken? >> reporter: craig, the headline here is that robert mueller's prosecutors told the judge that paul manafort deserves no credit, none for his cooperation with the mueller investigation, even though he met with them for hours and hours and over many sessions because they say he lied to them on crucial points. now the judge has scheduled another hearing from february 4th. that one will be closed because they want to discuss some of the things that were redacted in these documents about what manafort lied about.
some is very sensitive. mueller does not want it to be released to the public. paul manafort, who could have had a short if no prison sentence is now facing a virtual life sentence, as many as 15 years in years in prison. he'll be sentenced in virginia on february 8th on the eight felonies he was convicted of in virginia and faces more sentencing in washington, d.c. on the two charges he pled guilty to here in d.c. the prosecutors have said they are not going to try manafort on the other charges he was accused of in washington, d.c. but craig, they really don't need to. he's facing a huge chunk of time in prison. it's significant to mention on this day that paul manafort goes back decades with roger stone. they have a very close relationship. they were in business together. we don't know, craig, what paul manafort may have told robert mueller about roger stone's conduct during the campaign. >> all right, ken dilanian, outside that d.c. courthouse there. julia ainsley i believe is still with me as well.
julia, what more do we know about the connection between roger stone and paul manafort? >> we don't want to be too speculative when we talk about who these senior officials might be in the campaign who talked to roger stone. but it's clear that, you know, there was a very small circle who would be at that high level. manafort is one of them. or steve bannon could be another. there was a smaller circle of people who would have been managing it at that point. ken is absolutely right, they go so far back, they had a political consulting firm together. these two were behind the scenes, pulling levers. i think roger stone would admit his sort dark arts of politics, he's said that before. so this is a long relationship. and it's important to realize that that relationship could have been at play in some things we're seeing in this indictment,
particularly when donald trump wanted to know what was coming next from wikileaks. people in trump's orbit knew about roger stone but very few knew him like paul manafort did. >> cynthia alksne, you're a former federal prosecutor. this idea that roger stone is going to take to the podium there, roughly 20 or 30 minutes from now, in what universe is that a good idea? >> it's not a good idea. but it's what he's done all along. it wasn't a good idea to go on "meet the press" and lie. it's not a good idea to go to the congress and lie. i'm sure he isn't doing it on the advice of counsel, because nobody would suggest he do that. it would be much better for him to be quiet, look at the indictment and the evidence supporting it, and make a decision about cooperating. that's what would be in his best interests. but having a long-winded conversation on the steps of the courthouse, while fascinating for those of us would watcho wa
not in roger stone's interest. >> here is the president's tweet when michael cohen pled guilty, this statement was made by roger stone, essentially stating he will not be forced by rogue and out of control prosecutors to make up lies and stories about president trump. nice to know that some people still have guts, the president there tweeting about roger stone in the wake of the michael cohen guilty plea there. i guess the big question today is does roger stone still have guts, and how long will his loyalty last. >> right. i mean, i guess we'll find that out. i would hope he would listen to his lawyer. he has a professional lawyer who can analyze this evidence and make a decision about what's in his interests as opposed to just, you know, this sort of i'm a dirty trickster and i can get away with this if i continue to lie. that doesn't make any sense to
me. but he doesn't look to me like a person who has been motivated by rational behavior for some time. >> a self-described dirty trickster as well. rick tyler, msnbc analyst and republican strategist, is with me, and former dnc senior adviser doug thornel. rick, the president, during the past 30 or 45 minutes or so, witch hunt, no collusion, we continue to hear that from this president. but if you are president trump or one of his senior advisers, how worried are you about this roger stone arrest? >> remarkably worried. if this is in fact a witch hunt, then roger stone is a warlock, and they've got him. and their history, craig, goes back 40 years. so roger stone knows a lot. and faced with prison time, trump should be very worried. but when you start to look at all the indictments and all the
guilty pleas and people who have pled guilty, have served time or are serving time and even gotten out of jail already, these walls are closing in fast on donald trump. >> doug, meanwhile, while all of this is happening, oh, by the way, there are still roughly 800,000 federal workers who weren't paid today. the government shutdown now in its 35th day. no end in sight, it would seem, based on the votes we saw yesterday in the senate. one republican, one democrat, neither going anywhere, no reports that senior leaders from either party are talking about how to end this shutdown. >> that's correct. i mean, this has been a very damaging week for this president and this administration. it almost portrays an administration in a today on the chaotic death spiral. you had rudy giuliani's comments that he had to walk back on monday. this is in the backdrop of a shutdown that you're talking about with hundreds of thousands, millions of americans
hurting. and the president and his allies and others who seem to be totally tone deaf to the problem. you had wilbur ross, lara trump and others do their best marie antoinette and act like they didn't really understand the pain that these folks were feeling. and i think you look at that, you look at the dropping poll numbers that this president is seeing. and this has been a really, really bad week for him. and, you know, you also put in there the capitulation on the state of the union. i think it portrays a white house in the middle of dysfunction, corruption, looking out of touch, and chaos. the president is really hurting there. >> rick, it really is, you know, again -- we talk about things here on cable news in the abstract sometimes, but to hear from people throughout the week would work for the u.s. government, law-abiding people, play by the rules, and they find
themselves that close to being evicted, they find themselves not being able to pay water bills and light bills. and then they hear wilbur ross yesterday who at one point was worth a few billion dollars, i believe "fortune" downgraded his wealth last year or the year before to roughly $700 million, to hear him be so tone deaf about the struggles that a few hundred thousand people are having right now through no fault of their own, it just seems as if not only that the administration doesn't get it, but they don't even have any interest in faking it. >> craig, there's out of touch, way out of touch, and then there's wilbur ross. why didn't he go on to say, this would be a great time to borrow money, put an addition on your house, why not buy a car, go on a great vacation? he couldn't have been more out of touch. people are going to see this and people are -- they may not feel it themselves but a lot of the communities are feeling it.
there's almost a million federal workers who are out of work. their lives are going into financial ruin. for the idea that wilbur ross would say go into debt because the government will back you, what are they supposed to do, go to their local bank and say, wilbur ross sent me? is he going to co-sign these loans when these people have had two pay stubs that now read zero? it couldn't have been any more tone deaf. >> doug, again, for folks who might be joining us here at the bottom of the hour, roger stone expected to head to that podium here, roughly 20 or 30 minutes from now, we're told. again, this coming on the heels of that early morning arrest, the indictment. he has posted a $250,000 signature bond. he's turned over his passport. what do you suspect we will likely hear from roger stone when he comes to that podium? >> i suspect he'll use a lot of the same talking points that the president is using, that this is a witch hunt, that nothing -- that he did nothing wrong. you know, he's the ultimate showman.
so it's interesting, he's doing this press conference. but look, i think he's going to talk about it it being a witch hunt. he's going to try to blame the fbi and blame democrats for this mess that he caused. >> rick, you've been in republican leadership circles for a while as an analyst, strategist. how would you characterize roger stone? >> my question is, craig, if there's nothing to lie about, then why are so many people lying? there's no such thing as a perjury trap, i want to make that very clear to people. all you have to do is tell the truth. is it really so hard to have integrity? so i expect roger stone will be roger stone. it's just another -- it's just season two of the reality show and we're going to kick off season two in a few minutes here with roger stone and whatever he's going to spill out for the next episode. >> rick, doug, thank you, a big thanks to my panelists and
analysts who joined me. "andrea mitchell reports" starts right now. good day, i'm andrea mitchell in washington, thank you, craig, with our continuing coverage on the indictment of longtime trump associate roger stone. he's appearing before a judge in ft. lauderdale and signing a $250,000 signature bond before his arrest on charges stemming from the russia probe. stone's travel is restricted to washington, d.c. and parts of florida and virginia. the grand jury indictment includes one count of obstruction, five counts of false statements to congress during his testimony before the house intelligence committee, and one count of witness tampering. all five counts of false statements are connected to comments stone made to the committee in relation to wikileaks labeled organization 1 in the charging documents. stone has repeatedly denied any direct connection to